PhD/PsyD Offered late acceptance to Wright State, but little to no funding

[Nemos]

So, after being offered a pretty solid full-time job about a week ago (in an unrelated field), I got an email from Wright State saying that they had some openings in their Clinical Psychology PsyD program. They're looking to fill 25 spots which is kind of a lot, but I'm one of the six they're offering it to after the April deadline which makes me a little happy since I've gone through the application and interview process twice now (technically three, but the second was a last minute blitzkrieg of apps).

My main reservation is that while Wright is university based and has a $7k scholarship for the first year, after inquiring about the average debt of students in that program, I would be looking at $100,000 worth of debt for five years, and I don't think that figure even included the cost of living.

My gut is telling me that it's not worth that much debt just to get a doctorate, but at the same time, I would be earning my doctorate which would maybe begin to pay for itself 10 years from now. Or maybe it won't - the field seems a bit dubious from what I've read on here.

I know from reading topics in the past on here that you guys are brutally honest and that's the sort of thing I want to hear, because every time I think I would be better off applying again or just getting a masters or something different, I come back to the fact that I did get into a doctoral program, and who knows how likely that would be to happen again if I did end up reapplying, which to be honest, I'm rather tired of doing. Plus I think my GRE scores expire after the upcoming cycle which is just a nuisance. Thanks.

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[ClinicalABA]

Calculate some financial costs here-

$100000 in debt at 6.8 interest paid back over 20 years ($763 per month payment!) will end up being $183000 total payment. You could pay $1150/month for 10 years, and it'll be a total of $138000.

Calculate the opportunity costs of graduate school. Mode time to degree at Wright State is 5 years. You'll need to identify the average income of Wright St. Psy.D. students (from things like RAs, TAs, practicum, etc.) during their years on campus, as well as the average salary for the internship year (Wright State internship rates are decent- APA internships for ~85% of students; all students getting paid internships). Once you figure out an estimate for those five years, subtract it from what you would've made in those years in your recently obtained full-time job (don't forget to add in value like employer contributions to health insurance, retirement, etc.- that's real value stuff). Add this number to the loan costs to get a general estimate of the financial costs of getting the Psy.D. from Wright State.

Now it gets tricky. You'll need to compare lifetime earning potential as a psychologist vs. the same in your non-related career. You could look at difference in mid-career salary medians (~$75k for psychologist). Be careful with this- this is not an average lifetime annual salary. It'll take you a while to get there, and early career salaries will be lower. You should try to get a sense of salary trajectories for your current job, so you can compare.

Now you should look at non-financial factors. Grad school, internship, post-doc, etc. are a ton of work, can be stressful and grueling, and can get in the way of things like family, establishing a permanent homestead (you WILL have to move, likely more than once, and likely far away). The older you are, the more impact this will have (in my opinion and experience). You can't overestimate the feeling of finally being settled, without the worry of where you'll be in a year or two. Uncertainty is one thing when you're 25,and single, it's another thing when you're 35 and have a family. I'd say that the older and more settled you are now, the more value you have to give to theses costs of grad school. Don't underestimate the benefits of your current job related to stability, work enjoyment, quality of life of people in the field, etc. being a psychologist is cool, training to be a psychologist can be a big pain in the ass for a decade.

In my case, in retrospect, grad school was a great investment. I love my job, have made a nice salary, and things have worked out for my family. I have student loan payments, and that sucks, but they are more than made up for by the increased salary relative to what I could be making without the degree.

In your case, I gotta come back to the loan payments you will have. $1000 a month payment is HUGE. Even with a good salary (let's say that 75k median salary), that's around 25% of your after-tax take home pay, not accounting for other payroll deductions, like insurance. That will be VERY rough.

 

[WisNeuro]

Calculate some financial costs here-

$100000 in debt at 6.8 interest paid back over 20 years ($763 per month payment!) will end up being $183000 total payment. You could pay $1150/month for 10 years, and it'll be a total of $138000.
.

And that's debt that does not factor in cost of living expenses while in grad school. Throw on another 50k minimum most likely. Bottom line, Wright State actually has good outcome numbers, but that price tag is super high. That's med school debt load at a psychologist's salary.

 

[psych844]

debt just to get a doctorate

Consider as well that after you get that Doctorate people will judge you where you got it from, and people will also mostly not call you Dr...especially the people that matter. They will still probably call you..Hey dingus!

 

[Justanothergrad]

Consider as well that after you get that Doctorate people will judge you where you got it from, and people will also mostly not call you Dr...especially the people that matter. They will still probably call you..Hey dingus!

In my experience, most people won't know where you got your degree from (let alone most clients being aware what kind of degree it even is) within private practice. Hiring is more interested in your license and your previous working experience to do specific tasks. I'm not in academia so others can speak to this better but I suspect that it may be a weight there as well (particularly early on) but as you establish a research capacity, this will be less and less of a factor to judge you.

Caveat: People that do judge your school will generally do so based on that school's basketball/Football/sports team notoriety/popularity.

 

[ClinicalABA]

In my experience, most people won't know where you got your degree from (let alone most clients being aware what kind of degree it even is) within private practice. Hiring is more interested in your license and your previous working experience to do specific tasks. I'm not in academia so others can speak to this better but I suspect that it may be a weight there as well (particularly early on) but as you establish a research capacity, this will be less and less of a factor to judge you.

Caveat: People that do judge your school will generally do so based on that school's basketball/Football/sports team notoriety/popularity.

I don't know about this- we kind of pay attention to where potential hires went to graduate school, without regard to the proficiency of the athletic teams. Our clients generally don't care. While we're not necessarily snobby and looking exclusively for the best programs, certain types of schools (Capellas, Argosys, etc.) will generally get you "unconsidered" while other schools will get you immediate attention.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't know about this- we kind of pay attention to where potential hires went to graduate school, without regard to the proficiency of the athletic teams. Our clients generally don't care. While we're not necessarily snobby and looking exclusively for the best programs, certain types of schools (Capellas, Argosys, etc.) will generally get you "unconsidered" while other schools will get you immediate attention.

Yeah, I have definitely been in on hiring decisions where pedigree was paramount. Where you went to grad school and postdoc in the neuro world is very important to some hiring situations. It's generally how we've made the first round of cuts to get to the interviewee pool.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't know about this- we kind of pay attention to where potential hires went to graduate school, without regard to the proficiency of the athletic teams. Our clients generally don't care. While we're not necessarily snobby and looking exclusively for the best programs, certain types of schools (Capellas, Argosys, etc.) will generally get you "unconsidered" while other schools will get you immediate attention.

Yeah, I have definitely been in on hiring decisions where pedigree was paramount. Where you went to grad school and postdoc in the neuro world is very important to some hiring situations. It's generally how we've made the first round of cuts to get to the interviewee pool.

+1
Often the people doing the hiring or that have significant input into the decision are psychologists and we tend to know whats what about a CV since we have been through the process. It is true that non-psychologists usually don't though.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A questionable program will usually be first cut, though as long as you come from a halfway decent program, then school matters somewhat less. Wright State would make the cut.

I look more closely at fellowship training because mentorship really matters. My personal bias (when looking at faculty apps) is that I only seriously consider applicants who came from formal fellowship programs, though this also relates to the boarding req. we have in place. If a more senior person comes along, that's different, but for ECP...it's been a solid indicator.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Having been on the hiring process as well, my experienxe was that matters substantially more the first go around. You land a good job, people don't tend to look backwards. Where you did your undergrad is less important there where you did your doc, etc etc. Especially in private practice. More network intensive jobs benefit from more networking, but again.. This declines as other metrics appear to evidence a judgement on.

I'm curious to hear how this plays out in psychology at the doc level.

I don't know about this- we kind of pay attention to where potential hires went to graduate school, without regard to the proficiency of the athletic teams. Our clients generally don't care. While we're not necessarily snobby and looking exclusively for the best programs, certain types of schools (Capellas, Argosys, etc.) will generally get you "unconsidered" while other schools will get you immediate attention.

Five years and two jobs (or whatever number of reputable employments later) are you still looking at doc program?

My experience on the other side hiring has always emphasized verifiable recency. I was talking about private practice in that post, but I suspect the trend of earlier experience being less critical to perceptions of competence holds true in network intense places as well.

Note, I'm not saying people don't judge crap programs

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

True. Once someone is 4-5yrs out, their jobs matter more (assuming APA-acred program & internship and a halfway decent post-doc/fellowship). The last part matters at some places but not all. I'd argue you wouldn't want anything less. Wright State matches 80%+ and has a high licensure rate, so that should be less of an issue.

 

[Justanothergrad]

True. Once someone is 4-5yrs out, their jobs matter more (assuming APA-acred program & internship and a halfway decent post-doc/fellowship). The last part matters at some places but not all. I'd argue you wouldn't want anything less. Wright State matches 80%+ and has a high licensure rate, so that should be less of an issue.

Based on the number I just made up in my head without any sort of evidence, I suspect that in 95% of programs fall in the Middle where they don't get held against someone or for them. The other 5% is made up of equal parts Harvard and Argosy

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'd agree with that.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

They're looking to fill 25 spots which is kind of a lot, but I'm one of the six they're offering it to after the April deadline

This, to me, is most concerning.
this means that 20% of applicants waited till the deadline to say no. We can't know the reasons but my guess is 20% of people were likely torn about the cost of the program and decided to say no.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I have a lot of respect for the program, as I know some absolutely amazing clinicians and researchers who trained there (first-author American Psychologist publications, etc), but I can't in good conscious advise taking that much debt for *any* program in this field. It's about double what your starting salary will be, not counting the one to two years of lower postdoc salary.

 

[Nemos]

This, to me, is most concerning.
this means that 20% of applicants waited till the deadline to say no. We can't know the reasons but my guess is 20% of people were likely torn about the cost of the program and decided to say no.

Yeah, I actually asked the admissions director if he could tell me why past applicants deferred and he told me that it seemed like those deferring were accepting offers from programs covering tuition or offering a stipend. Which is what I expected.

Calculate some financial costs here-

$100000 in debt at 6.8 interest paid back over 20 years ($763 per month payment!) will end up being $183000 total payment. You could pay $1150/month for 10 years, and it'll be a total of $138000.

Calculate the opportunity costs of graduate school. Mode time to degree at Wright State is 5 years. You'll need to identify the average income of Wright St. Psy.D. students (from things like RAs, TAs, practicum, etc.) during their years on campus, as well as the average salary for the internship year (Wright State internship rates are decent- APA internships for ~85% of students; all students getting paid internships). Once you figure out an estimate for those five years, subtract it from what you would've made in those years in your recently obtained full-time job (don't forget to add in value like employer contributions to health insurance, retirement, etc.- that's real value stuff). Add this number to the loan costs to get a general estimate of the financial costs of getting the Psy.D. from Wright State.

Now it gets tricky. You'll need to compare lifetime earning potential as a psychologist vs. the same in your non-related career. You could look at difference in mid-career salary medians (~$75k for psychologist). Be careful with this- this is not an average lifetime annual salary. It'll take you a while to get there, and early career salaries will be lower. You should try to get a sense of salary trajectories for your current job, so you can compare.

Now you should look at non-financial factors. Grad school, internship, post-doc, etc. are a ton of work, can be stressful and grueling, and can get in the way of things like family, establishing a permanent homestead (you WILL have to move, likely more than once, and likely far away). The older you are, the more impact this will have (in my opinion and experience). You can't overestimate the feeling of finally being settled, without the worry of where you'll be in a year or two. Uncertainty is one thing when you're 25,and single, it's another thing when you're 35 and have a family. I'd say that the older and more settled you are now, the more value you have to give to theses costs of grad school. Don't underestimate the benefits of your current job related to stability, work enjoyment, quality of life of people in the field, etc. being a psychologist is cool, training to be a psychologist can be a big pain in the ass for a decade.

In my case, in retrospect, grad school was a great investment. I love my job, have made a nice salary, and things have worked out for my family. I have student loan payments, and that sucks, but they are more than made up for by the increased salary relative to what I could be making without the degree.

In your case, I gotta come back to the loan payments you will have. $1000 a month payment is HUGE. Even with a good salary (let's say that 75k median salary), that's around 25% of your after-tax take home pay, not accounting for other payroll deductions, like insurance. That will be VERY rough.

I have a lot of respect for the program, as I know some absolutely amazing clinicians and researchers who trained there (first-author American Psychologist publications, etc), but I can't in good conscious advise taking that much debt for *any* program in this field. It's about double what your starting salary will be, not counting the one to two years of lower postdoc salary.

This is my biggest concern, that it's just way too expensive to justify the doctorate from Wright. Another wrinkle is that my full-time job offers $15k towards a masters program (would likely be a field change, to something like Industrial Psych or business).

 

[Wendi22]

Did you make a decision? For what it is worth I also applied many cycles (although like you I had one year that was a bit of a rushed processes with only 2 schools). I took the GRE well over five times. Anyways by this last cycle I was definitely over it....but it paid off. I think no matter if you decide to move forward in your job or apply again next year you could certainly still make things work out well for yourself.

Regarding going to the school right now.... I have to agree with what others are pointing out that it is a red flag that they are coming back to offer spots after the deadline. There is a reason funded programs don't usually have to send out emails after the deadline ....it is because funded spots get yanked up fast. Also pay attention to your own reservations about the money. Good luck with your decision hope you were able to reach one and be happy with it!


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[Nemos]

Did you make a decision? For what it is worth I also applied many cycles (although like you I had one year that was a bit of a rushed processes with only 2 schools). I took the GRE well over five times. Anyways by this last cycle I was definitely over it....but it paid off. I think no matter if you decide to move forward in your job or apply again next year you could certainly still make things work out well for yourself.

Regarding going to the school right now.... I have to agree with what others are pointing out that it is a red flag that they are coming back to offer spots after the deadline. There is a reason funded programs don't usually have to send out emails after the deadline ....it is because funded spots get yanked up fast. Also pay attention to your own reservations about the money. Good luck with your decision hope you were able to reach one and be happy with it!


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Not yet. I have until tomorrow to make a decision. My GRE scores don't actually expire for another two years which is nice.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Not yet. I have until tomorrow to make a decision. My GRE scores don't actually expire for another two years which is nice.

If you don't mind, I'm sure many of us would like know your decision, as well as what went into your making it.