This is amazing. If you wouldn't mind expanding, I am interested to know why you ranked LIJ over Beth Israel and BU over U of C. I understand the reputations of UIC and U of C, but for some reason I got a cold/weird vibe from UIC and a warm/friendly one from U of C. I also unexpectedly really liked Dallas. Thank you for your help!
Official 2014 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread
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This is amazing. If you wouldn't mind expanding, I am interested to know why you ranked LIJ over Beth Israel and BU over U of C. I understand the reputations of UIC and U of C, but for some reason I got a cold/weird vibe from UIC and a warm/friendly one from U of C. I also unexpectedly really liked Dallas. Thank you for your help!
Hey, first time poster here as well. I'm having some trouble putting together parts of my rank list. Career-wise, I'm looking for a program that'll give me the opportunity to pursue research (my primary goal) with good addictions and CL training. I know my first choice is going to be UW because I want to be in the Pacific Northwest and the program has what I'm looking for (addictions emphasis, tertiary academic center with multiple training sites, solid research, good psychotherapy training, good C/L). I'm just wondering about the rest of my list now. Location is a big thing for me as I'd like to be close to the Pacific Northwest, but the south would be my second choice (love the weather and have family there as well), and the midwest my third preference. I'm a very outdoors person and don't really want to live in a metropolis (NY), unless it's a great program or better than one that's farther up my list (ie BIMC and North Shore-LIJ). I would definitely sacrifice location for a good program. Also, I'm an IMG which makes things a bit tougher for me. So how should I arrange my list, based on my aforementioned preferences, from UMD to Cleveland Clinic? Thanks for any input!
-UW
-U of Maryland
-Vanderbilt
-MUSC
-U of Utah
-Case Western
-VCU
-Beth Israel
-North Shore-LIJ
-Cleveland Clinic
-Rutgers-RWJ
-SUNY Downstate
-Loyola
-Maimonides
-UW
-U of Maryland
-Vanderbilt
-MUSC
-U of Utah
-Case Western
-VCU
-Beth Israel
-North Shore-LIJ
-Cleveland Clinic
-Rutgers-RWJ
-SUNY Downstate
-Loyola
-Maimonides
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As far as Beth Israel vs LIJ
It's hard to compare these two very different programs- LIJ is a psychiatry powerhouse, everyone is familiar with the hillside hospital. The residents are not overworked, they get amazing clinical mentors but without the stress that comes from being a resident. work life balance is pretty great in this program. BIMC works the residents pretty hard and in a community hospital setting (not new and shiny like hillside but that doesn't really matter) . As far as name recognition coming from LIJ will hold more "impressivity"
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I only interviewed at UIC and Northwestern in Chicago because I was specifically advised not to apply to UC because the program is not as good as the reputation of the medical school would indicate (and even a little malignant?) But if you got a good vibe from UC, definitely move it up as I have fairly limited knowledge about the program (I do have a friend from undergrad who goes to the school though). I did interview at Dallas but I came out of the interview with a very lukewarm feeling. It seemed to be a program that did many things okay and nothing great. They are also a relatively hardworking program - up there with Baylor, and I didn't like the city much either - too serious / business-y, and not a real "big city" in my opinion. There were also only so many places you could drive to from there for weekend trips and such, and most of them were similar to Dallas anyway.
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That's neither my impression nor that of my sources. Not saying you're wrong, just joining the discussion. My impression was that both are equally medium hard working places. The economics and perhaps the research opportunities are better at LIJ. Very different PD's--West coast vibe vs the Jewish psychoanalytic NYC fraternity. BI has a bustling hugely diverse patient population from all over New York and Brooklyn. LIJ has the additional economic diversity of Long Island suburbia and queens. The hospital director at BI has issues with moonlighting--thanks mr I trained in the 70's when manhattan was affordable for schmoes. LIJ supports it. So advantage huge for LIJ economics. But advantage location huge for BI from my point of view.
I really connected with the PD at LIJ but with the residents and C/L people at BI. Of course that's ultra eclectic to each of us. Just offering it as examples of why we might come to different conclusions.
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Based on your location preference, this is how I would rank them without compromising the quality of training:
- UW (a truly stellar program)
- MUSC (another gem)
- Vanderbilt
- U of Utah
- Cleveland Clinic
- North Shore-LIJ
- Case Western (even though midwest > nyc for you, I can't bring myself to put this above LIJ)
- U of Maryland
- Beth Israel (could be higher if you liked nyc more)
- Rutgers-RWJ
- Maimonides
- VCU (it's in richmond)
- Loyola (!)
- SUNY Downstate (ugh)
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I agree with the above, although I might put Cleveland Clinic and Maryland a bit higher on the list (maybe #4 and 5). Cleveland Clinic might get a further bump for their C/L, since that's an interest of yours.
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I've been around SDN forever, and it seems like the University of Chicago stuff is all pretty old and not based on a lot of concrete information. As I recall, part of the negative information came from someone who had a bad interview experience, which honestly tells you almost nothing about a program. A bad interview experience probably 3 plus years ago tells you even less. I wouldn't count SDN data over your own experiences during your interview and over any information you could get from current residents and faculty who actually know what's happening at a program.
Following on that note, I think we act like we know a lot about lots of programs based on very little information here, and I'm guilty of it, too. The match is a really uncertain process, and you're making big decisions about your future with very little data so it's understandable that we'll try to delude ourselves into thinking we have objective/rational data to use in making these decisions. I'll add that you're also likely interpreting information based on various desires that you might not be aware of. Personally I'll say that I overlooked things at my program that I knew from the get-go weren't ideal for me (multiple clinical sites in outpatient years, which leaves me feeling scattered and anxious) because I liked the PD and really wanted to be in this city for various personal reasons. Caveat here -- I'm not bashing my program -- other people, including many of my fellow residents, like multiple training sites for diversity of training and all that. It's just not ideal for me, and I knew that and yet discarded that a factor in my rank list without any real awareness that I was doing that.
So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that there are a lot of posts here acting like there's real solid data about a program when there's not. Based on that, I wouldn't place information you get from SDN over information you get from your own experiences and from reports from people you know in real life (who are basing in on their own experiences and not 3+ year old posts on SDN).
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Unless you have huge red flags (bigger than Step failures and repeating coursework) and/or only interviewed at very competitive programs, there's very very little chance of you not matching. However, I think SOAP is pretty tough, leaving you with the possibility of not doing psych at all next year. So I guess that's how I would look at the choice -- would I rather be at that program than not be at a program at all next year?
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Similar to what Dr Bagel is saying, it puzzles me that people solicit help with ranking programs AFTER they have interviewed. I mean, post interviews, you know far more about the pluses and minuses of the programs, you know more how you felt about the locations, you know your interests, your family situation, etc. At this point, I don't really care what others think about the programs I am ranking. Pre application, I did rely heavily on SDN opinions and reviews, and I believe that it really helped me target programs and locations - with few exceptions, the collective opinion was spot on about each and every program, although I liked a couple of programs far more than the SDN peanut gallery, but that was a pleasant surprise.
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While I'm not defending the posts about University of Chicago (I hardly know the program anyway), I have to say that SDN had been a fantastic resource for me throughout my interview season. As Psychotic points out above me, the information I'd gleaned from here had been spot on. I've also met some amazingly helpful people here like splik whose advice had been invaluable. Now, I'm not saying I'd disregard my interview day experience entirely in favor of the collective information here, but I'd definitely use the information here to complement mine. Because, all said and done, the information I gained from one visit where the program puts on their best show is just not going to be enough to make such "big decisions about my future".
Also, to clarify about the posts about University of Chicago on SDN, IIRC, it was not the post of the interview applicant recounting his difficult interview day that caused such a stir. Rather, it was the follow up to the post from someone in the program who mentioned that they knew who the applicant was and sort of threatened him publicly. This particular move, I believe, hinted at the culture of the program and tainted it for good.
EDIT: Found that thread. It's actually four years old! http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-chicago-careful.681002/
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I guess I'd follow up to say how do you know for sure it's been spot on? I think it's a pretty blind process, and you probably don't know what you're getting into until you're there. Adding to that, programs change in ways that aren't predictable and are shaped heavily by each incoming class, so they're dynamic by nature. The big picture is that it probably doesn't matter that much -- you'll wind up a board eligible psychiatrist either way -- but looking back on my reviews as an applicant, I'm struck by how little I picked up and how little I probably gleaned about any program. And honestly by how arrogant I was in thinking I knew stuff that I didn't know. So seeming utility as an applicant might not tell you as much as you think. With that, good luck.
It'll be OK however it works out (most likely).
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Absolutely. I didn't disagree with that part of your original post at all. I was only suggesting that I would not discard the information I've gained from SDN because having the additional information, good or bad, is generally more helpful in making my decisions than not having them!
Exactly my point.
Hello all. I already have my list completed, but I would like the input of others, and who better than the wonderful SDN Psychiatry crowd.
I ranked based on location for the first few slots, followed by quality of program and overall feeling of fit, but I'm curious about how I might rank if location was not a factor. A little bit about me: I'm looking for a well-rounded program that has good psychotherapy training, and I would like for the program to have a good geri fellowship. Strong community psych training is a major plus. Options for rural rotations is also a plus. I would also like to have the opportunity to pursue teaching interests.
My programs: Dartmouth, University of Wisconsin, University of Louisville, MSU, Palmetto, MCW, Case Western, Cleveland Clinic, UW, UW Boise, Iowa, Vanderbilt.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
I ranked based on location for the first few slots, followed by quality of program and overall feeling of fit, but I'm curious about how I might rank if location was not a factor. A little bit about me: I'm looking for a well-rounded program that has good psychotherapy training, and I would like for the program to have a good geri fellowship. Strong community psych training is a major plus. Options for rural rotations is also a plus. I would also like to have the opportunity to pursue teaching interests.
My programs: Dartmouth, University of Wisconsin, University of Louisville, MSU, Palmetto, MCW, Case Western, Cleveland Clinic, UW, UW Boise, Iowa, Vanderbilt.
Any input is greatly appreciated.
I'm having a bit of trouble making my list. I want a clinically-focused program with a decent work/life balance. So many programs seem good with similar work hours. How do you make the list? How do you choose between a well-viewed, semi-chill program vs a newer, even chiller program with a super cool PD? What's most important? It seems like there are too many unknown variables to make a decision.
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You've listed a lot of programs that are known for academic strength and biological psychiatry rather than community/rural rotations and psychotherapy. UW is probably the best program on that list overall, but also on the biological side. I'd have Iowa and Wisconsin high up on the list mostly because of their less-urban locations. I think that Vanderbilt, Cleveland Clinic, and Case have good programs if you're interested in biological/academic psychiatry, but it doesn't sound like they'll give you what you're looking for.
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You choose based on what other things are important to you. I don't think that anybody can give you meaningful advice based on the amount of information that you provided. Some people choose almost entirely based on location (not me), others choose largely based on academic/research strength (me), others choose purely based on call schedule.
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Sounds similar to my goals (clinical focus - as opposed to research / academia - and work / life balance). And I similarly concluded that most programs I interviewed at were good in both focus and balance. So my rank list is more about location, tempered by my "gut" feel about the different programs - the "close your eyes and tell me where you see yourself" test.
As to the 'super cool PD' thing: I would not let that one variable carry too much weight in the final decision, because PDs can leave...plus a PD may be stellar at the recruiting and glad handing (the part we experience), and less so in the running of the program (the part we think we know, but really are guessing at based on limited info and observation on interview day).
How 'new' is the newer program? At least 5 years old? Or in its inaugural year? I am leery of any program that has not gone through a full cycle of residents - I am not interested in being a guinea pig (I felt the same way about med school).
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I think that if Integrated Care is one of your major interests then you really can't do better than UW, including programs you haven't listed that are traditionally felt to be "top programs." Katon and Unutzer are miles ahead of anyone else, and from what I hear are quite accessible if you have an interest in the field.
I wouldn't worry too much about not feeling like you fit in with the residents you met. Remember, you only spent a few hours with them - you probably didn't really get to know them, and they probably didn't really get to know you.
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A couple other factors to consider if you are interested in Integrated Care: institutional flexibility and perceived need.
The more rigid and traditional a department is, the more difficult it is for even a very motivated individual or group of individuals to innovate. And if there isn't a perceived need for something, it doesn't matter how awesome it sounds. My sense is that part of why UW is so far ahead of the game is not just because of the individuals they have, but because they are more willing to try something new, and because they serve such a large geographical area that has such a huge shortage in mental health providers.
The more rigid and traditional a department is, the more difficult it is for even a very motivated individual or group of individuals to innovate. And if there isn't a perceived need for something, it doesn't matter how awesome it sounds. My sense is that part of why UW is so far ahead of the game is not just because of the individuals they have, but because they are more willing to try something new, and because they serve such a large geographical area that has such a huge shortage in mental health providers.
I get what you're saying, but several of mine are in smaller towns that seem about the same to me.
If I'm searching for a way to differentiate similar programs, I guess this is a good point. I'll drop this one down a couple spots.
Thanks for the reply.
I am always a lurker of SDN and had a lot of great information from this forum but this is the first time that I feel like I really need some advice. Since I have almost done all of my interviews, this choice turned out to be so hard at the end of this season.....clearly a brief day of interview can't reveal everything of a program. If you were an IMG without a citizenship or green card, no family's living in the states and only had a little bit of preference of NYC over the midwest. (Not really much because I'm actually fond of California much more due to the warm weather...), how would you choose from Mayo Clinic and North Shore- LIJ? I concern a great training site with excellent clinical, research and educational exposure most. Thanks for any input and experiences sharing!!
I'm a long term lurker too, posting for the first time. I could use some inputs on some of these not so well-known programs. My rank list isn't impressive either. I'm not a strong applicant and I want to stay in New York City for very strong personal reasons so applied only to a few programs here.
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
Staten Island University
Nassau University
Harlem Hospital Center Program
I want to do a child fellowship after residency so I am looking for program that would be the most prestigious and would help me get the fellowship in the best place possible. That is my only criteria too as all the programs are in places I can easily go to and all seem to have equal quality of training. Thanks for any input towards ranking these programs in the correct order based on that one criteria.
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
Staten Island University
Nassau University
Harlem Hospital Center Program
I want to do a child fellowship after residency so I am looking for program that would be the most prestigious and would help me get the fellowship in the best place possible. That is my only criteria too as all the programs are in places I can easily go to and all seem to have equal quality of training. Thanks for any input towards ranking these programs in the correct order based on that one criteria.
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Thanks for your thoughts! I think UW is an absolutely fantastic program (why it will be somewhere in the top of my list). And while I fell in love with Seattle during my time spent there interviewing, it is very far from home, which is absolutely a consideration.
If anyone has any additional thoughts on Hopkins I would greatly appreciate them! I feel like the other programs I mentioned (Longwood, UW, and Yale) have been well represented on this forum. Thanks!
I'm worried mainly about the ranking of my top 3. Which of these should I go with?
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
-OR-
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
-OR-
St Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center Program
Maimonides Medical Center Program
New York Medical College at Westchester Medical Center Program
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Oh c'mon-- ">>>>>>"??
It's not like they're playing golf in NY in January!
Thanks. I'm curious as to why you say that? Since you're pretty sure, there must be good reasons? For me it's been equivocal because:
Maimonides - Larger program, Brooklyn
Westchester - University program, more US grads
A close friend of mine moved to Rochester from warmer climes, and yes, the intense cold is tough, but being part of a truly exceptional health care system seems to keep him more than happy with his choice.
Any thoughts on how to rank the following programs? I would prefer to go somewhere safe with good quality of life outside training, that still has a decent reputation.
University of Iowa, University of Utah, Duke University, University of Vermont/Fletcher Allen, University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt, DMC/Wayne State University, University of Pittsburgh/WPIC, Penn State University, University of Florida (Gainesville), Virginia Commonwealth University
Thanks!
University of Iowa, University of Utah, Duke University, University of Vermont/Fletcher Allen, University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt, DMC/Wayne State University, University of Pittsburgh/WPIC, Penn State University, University of Florida (Gainesville), Virginia Commonwealth University
Thanks!
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Link to one of my old posts about Mayo...
(Please ignore the reference to the 2009 NFC Championship Game...it still hurts to think about that...)
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I agree with Psychotic above.
- University of Pittsburgh/WPIC
- Duke University
- University of Iowa
- University of Utah
- University of Vermont/Fletcher Allen
- University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt
- University of Florida (Gainesville) (although Gainesville would beat Baltimore in safety hands down, I probably wouldn't rank this program higher unless safety is very important to you)
- DMC/Wayne State University
- Virginia Commonwealth University
- Penn State University
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Thanks Psychotic, OldPsychDoc and SmallBird for the input! Actually I know how awful the weather of Rochester could be in the most of the time in a year, however, I also wonder a world-renowned medical center might bring me energy which is even more than a decent NY program can generate for me. The only concern is...what if LIJ is not inferior to Mayo in particular of psychiatry? By the way, I am also thinking about Saint Louis University. I met few WashU students interviewed at SLU and want to compare SLU with other hospitals such as New York Medical College or Georgia Regents University.
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Then rank Mayo higher. Simple isn't it? No, LIJ is not going to be on par with Mayo when it comes to the opportunities you can get - research, specific mentors, etc. I have a feeling this is the answer you are looking for.
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Agreed. But have you heard anyone say that about LIJ?
The fact of the matter is that both are decent, middle-of-the-road programs that provide decent clinical training and decent opportunities for research. The way I see it, bibolare values the name recognition of Mayo and is already thinking "what if?" after reading your suggestion to rank LIJ higher and live in NYC. So, I'd suggest that he rank the program he's evidently going to regret not matching at more, which is Mayo.
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To all applicants: one of the big advantages of any program is that it gives you networking opportunities in its region after graduation, so if you can somewhat project where you want to practice after residency then I would rank those programs higher.
Problem is, I did not get any feelings during interview. These were my first and second interviews and I was thinking about making a good impression more than evaluating programs. Neither program does second looks. Hopefully someone on this board knows both the programs, NYMC Westchester and Maimonides, and can advise?
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Question...
I am trying to decide between community residency programs in my hometown (Banner Good Sam and Maricopa county - as I want to practice in Phoenix and these are both in Phoenix) vs University of Arizona, which is 2 hours away in Tucson. I know all of these places would give me regional connections as opposed to going out-of-state (although it kills me to even think of putting these places above Case Western, MCW, or Ohio State - which I loved). However, would it be helpful to do residency in the same city you want to practice, by way of getting patients who already know you and are willing to come see you?
The University of Arizona has the advantage of having more clinics and elective opportunities, and they have a lot of cool research on mind-body medicine which I'm VERY interested in, and don't think I could get at the community programs. If I went to the University of Arizona, I'd probably still have regional networking connections in Phoenix as a lot of the graduates move to the Phoenix area. But even though I'd prefer the training at University of Arizona, since it's 2 hours away I know I won't have the same patient base, and thus I don't know if I should give extra weight to the Phoenix community programs, since I'd already have a patient base developed. How much do you think this really matters in terms of doing residency in the same city you practice so that patients already know you? Or are the regional connections sufficient, even if you move to a different city? Thanks!
Edit: Just to add: the UofA draws me in not only for it's research opportunities in my areas of interest, but also because I think it will open up more doors to good fellowships in other large university programs and further my interest in academic medicine. On the other hand, the Phoenix community programs are attractive to me because I can have dinner with my relatives almost as often as I want, and since my parents are getting older, this is important. I can still probably meet my folks about once a month or so if I went to Tucson, which is probably sufficient, though my parents' declining physical/emotional health is concerning me.
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Redacted because I've come to realize my information here was not entirely accurate.
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Thanks! I was thinking something similar. I really liked Utah but for some reason it does not seem to get as much respect? as some of the other programs despite its seemingly excellent training. Also, loved Iowa. I wasn't sure how to rank U MD/Sheppard Pratt since such a great program but not a good place to live!
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I was positively surprised by University of Utah too. It is a very nice program in a decent city. But I did apply there because it was highly recommended by my advisor. And I felt exactly the same way about University of Iowa as well! With University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt, yes, it seems like a decent program on paper, but to me the only strength of the program was the one hospital out of the many the residents rotate through - Sheppard Pratt at Towson. But, the residents pick lots to do their outpatient year there and only 6-7 out of the 15+ residents in each class get to do that. What if you have more than that number in your class interested in doing the outpatient year at Sheppard Pratt and you end up having to spend the year in the city or in one of the community centers? Also, as discussed before, because the residents cover many hospitals, they are spread thin and end up working pretty hard at each site. I have interviewed at 19 programs so far with only 1 to go, and University of Maryland and OHSU still occupy the top two spots in hard work, with the third a distant third! And possibly because the work leaves the residents with little free time, even though the university has some opportunities for research, hardly anyone does research (by my count, only 1 out of the 60+ residents is actively involved in research and even he was a research fellow at Maryland before he started his residency!)
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