Official 2014 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread

[Charlee24]

I was positively surprised by University of Utah too. It is a very nice program in a decent city. But I did apply there because it was highly recommended by my advisor. And I felt exactly the same way about University of Iowa as well! And with University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt, yes, it seems like a decent program on paper, but to me the only strength of the program was the one hospital out of the many the residents rotate through - Sheppard Pratt at Towson. But, the residents pick lots to do their outpatient year at Sheppard Pratt and only 6-7 out of the 15+ residents in each class get to do that. What if you have more than that number in your class interested in doing the outpatient year there and you end up having to spend the year in the city or in one of the community centers? And, as discussed before, because the residents cover many hospitals, they are spread thin and end up working pretty hard. I have interviewed at 19 programs so far with only 1 to go, and University of Maryland and OHSU still occupy the top two spots in hard work, with the third a distant third. And possibly because the work leaves the residents with little free time, even though the university has some opportunities for research, hardly anyone does research (by my count, only 1 out of the 60+ residents is actively involved in research and even he was a research fellow at Maryland before he started his residency!)

Very true! Thanks for validating my thoughts!

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[sa30501]

How would you rank these programs? I am looking for a well-rounded education and clinical training, not too concerned about research and it is important for me to live in or close to a big city.

In no particular order:

Beth Israel
Case Western
University of Buffalo
Wake Forest
MetroHealth
Texas Tech Lubbock
Rutgers
Temple University
Shepard Pratt
Hennepin-Regions
Creighton-Nebraska
Staten Island University Hospital
University of Connecticut
Morehouse School of Medicine
University of Toledo
Cleveland Clinic
Emory
University of Virginia

Your input would be VERY helpful. I am just beginning to think about ROL. I thought it would be a no-brainer but I'm having a lot of trouble making this list.

 

[Psychedelicious]

I am looking for a well-rounded education and clinical training, not too concerned about research and it is important for me to live in or close to a big city.

Hopefully someone familiar with all the programs you've listed would chime in. I've arranged the few programs I am familiar with based on your criteria. Maybe it's a start?

1. Emory
2. Cleveland Clinic
3. Beth Israel
4. Shepard Pratt
5. Temple University (you'll get exposed to all sorts of severe psychopathologies here so clinical training would be solid, and Philadelphia > Baltimore, but I'm not sure the program would be able to edge past the program above when it comes to didactics; move it up if you're a bigger fan of the city than I am though)
6. Case Western
7. University of Virginia
8. University of Buffalo (admittedly, Buffalo's bigger than Cville, but you'll get slightly better clinical training at UVa; change it based on what matters more to you)

Out of the programs I've left out, I have to say that I've heard very good things about Hennepin-Regions. I was told that it is a solid community program with happy residents. But since neither I nor anyone I personally know had interviewed there (or been a resident at the program), I do not know how to rank it with the 8 above.

 

[seaso]

Hi everyone!

I am having a really hard time with my top 5 programs. I would appreciate any input I would get. I am interested in an academic career and a happy residency life

My top 5 programs (in no particular order, loved them all!)
-UCSD
-Stanford
-Northwestern
-U of Minnesota
-Columbia

Thank you!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Hi everyone!

I am having a really hard time with my top 5 programs. I would appreciate any input I would get. I am interested in an academic career and a happy residency life

My top 5 programs (in no particular order, loved them all!)
-UCSD
-Stanford
-Northwestern
-U of Minnesota
-Columbia

Thank you!

Ya gotta go with geography (YOUR personal preference) on this one, keeping in mind that your first "academic" job will likely be in the region you train, if not at that institution.

 

[MedJosh]

Very true! Thanks for validating my thoughts!

It's nice to hear someone else beside myself like Utah. I think it's not considered by a lot of people, my mentor/advisor told me to check it out also. I thought it offered excellent facilities, schedule, smart residents and great faculty! I even reviewed it on here. It will be the top of my rank list.

 

[Psychedelicious]

Actually, that's not a Rutgers program; that's Cooper Medical School at Rowan University. The two Rutgers programs are RWJ (Piscataway/New Brunswick) and NJMS (Newark).

Oh my bad! I copy-pasted the list and arranged the names of the programs I was familiar with and totally misread Rutgers as Rowan. I'm not familiar with either Rutgers.

 

[psychphan]

Exciting time for you all. Best of luck with your rank order lists, and I hope you all match to your number 1!

If anyone has any questions about MUSC shoot me a private message. Im currently a resident there, am very happy with my choice, and would gladly answer any questions anyone may have.

 

[pisekar]

Hi guys!

I am finally done with my interviews and I started to think about rankings. I applied to the Texas programs mostly and am planning to stay there. Since I am a foreign medical graduate, I feel that I still need more information. What would you suggest about ranking these programs?

UTSW-Dallas
Baylor
Ut-Houston
Ut- Lubbock
JPS
Texas A&M

 

[Fugued Men]

This thread is really helpful, I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm curious how one would rate the following list with the following criteria :

A program that is focused more on the medical/biological aspects of psychiatry, with opportunities available in the research of thought disorders would be ideal. Eventually I want to pursue a fellowship in psychosomatics.

I would be moving as a single person, and like to think I'm a laid back dude who enjoys the company of other like minded laid back folk.

Also, while I 've grown up in the south for the majority of my life, I'm not particularly keen on staying in the area during my residency.

Finally, small-medium sized cities would be preferable to big cities, but its not that big of a deal.

University of Connecticut
University New Mexico
Duke University
University of Vermont Fletcher Allen
University of Florida
Boston University
Dartmouth Hitchcock
University of South Florida
Mayo Clinic
University of Arizona
Cleveland Clinic
University of Chicago
University of Illinois Chicago

Prematurity aside, thank you for the help!

 

[Psychedelicious]

I applied to the Texas programs mostly and am planning to stay there. Since I am a foreign medical graduate, I feel that I still need more information.

UTSW-Dallas
Baylor
Ut-Houston
Ut- Lubbock
JPS
Texas A&M

I'm impressed that as a foreign medical graduate, you only applied to a handful of programs. I've only visited UTSW-Dallas and Baylor and didn't like either. I didn't think either lived up to its reputation. Some of the attendings I met at both were also annoyingly proud and stuck-up. I don't know if that's a Texas thing, but they definitely seemed less "approachable" than most attendings I'd ever worked with on the east coast. The residents worked hard at both, and both were also too "biological". And that's even with Baylor having the famed Menninger Clinic! The didactics were quite good at Baylor though. Also, Houston > Dallas, and if this is important to you, Baylor is a more recognizable name to the general population, which might matter if you're planning to go into private practice after residency.

And while I've heard UT Houston is a fairly service-heavy program, all of PGY-4 is C/L at Memorial Hermann which is a good hospital to do C/L in. So, if you like psychosomatic medicine, it is worth ranking high for that reason. Also, all of the first two years are in one hospital, HCPC, and considering each class has about 10 residents, the call pool would be fairly large. I know the residents here do get to do research, and they beat Cornell in Mind Games last year. The PD is also supposed to be very personable. But I guess you'd know that already, wouldn't you?

I do not know enough about the other three programs to comment, sorry.

 

[Shikima]

I have a friend at UT Houston now, it is service heavy and a lot of call. But they do teach well and you start psychotherapy with patients during PGY-2.

 

[bibolare]

Oh my bad! I copy-pasted the list and arranged the names of the programs I was familiar with and totally misread Rutgers as Rowan. I'm not familiar with either Rutgers.

Hey guys! This reply reminded me of something- can anyone tell me the differences of psychiatry program between RWJ and NJMS? I have few impression towards these two schools and would like to have more perspectives. Thanks!!

 

[rkaz]

Thanks! I know you are another applicant also going through the process, but I am enjoying reading all of your perspectives on ranking. I do appreciate you spending the time to help me and others with ranking, as your perspective is helpful.

And finally, I may be wrong, but I don't think you can legally move your patients from your residency hospital to your private practice. I do not know how much word-of-mouth publicity you can get as a resident either. So, in the end, it pretty much boils down to whether or not you can live two hours from your family for four years.

Do any of the docs in practice have an answer to the above? I'd really like to know if you can have patients lined up by practicing in the same city you do residency - and if so, how much of an asset this is as compared to going to a regional program (where your attendings may have regional connections, but the patients aren't familiar with you). Thank you all so much for your time and guidance!

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Question...

I am trying to decide between community residency programs in my hometown (Banner Good Sam and Maricopa county - as I want to practice in Phoenix and these are both in Phoenix) vs University of Arizona, which is 2 hours away in Tucson. I know all of these places would give me regional connections as opposed to going out-of-state (although it kills me to even think of putting these places ...

Here's the deal. The patients at a community hospital will stay at that hospital after you leave because they don't have the money or insurance to follow you to private practice. That's why they're going to a county hospital. So don't worry too much about drawing patients you see in residency to your office thereafter. Perhaps focus on your family situation. That's what I did and am sure glad.

 

[3882370]

[I'd really like to know if you can have patients lined up by practicing in the same city you do residency - and if so, how much of an asset this is as compared to going to a regional program (where your attendings may have regional connections, but the patients aren't familiar with you). Thank you all so much for your time and guidance![/quote]

It totally depends on the kind of practice you have in your residency. I went to a residency that had a private practice type clinic and was successfully able to move a good number of my patients into private practice when I finished. In addition I was able to get referrals from faculty. If you train in primarily a community or hospital-based program this is not likely to be the case. It also depends on the saturation rate in the community. If you are training in New York City or Boston your success might be lower. If you're training in Texas there is such a need for psychiatry that setting up a practice is extremely easy.

 

[rkaz]

Thank you both so much for your advice. I do appreciate it. Maricopa county residency has more SMI involuntary patients, so I agree that the chances of getting patients afterwards is fairly unlikely. Banner is also community program, but they have more insured voluntary patients, so it may be possible. I'm not yet sure if I want my private practice to be based around insurance, or if I want to do a more sliding-scale reasonably priced cash service since I'd like sufficient time to do therapy with my patients, without insurance factors pushing me into med management only. So I'll have to figure that out. Thanks!

Edit: I'd also like to work at a residency program and/or university, and see outpatients with residents. Don't know how all this would work together but I am open and excited about the possibilities.

 

[bicycle87]

Based on your location preference, this is how I would rank them without compromising the quality of training:

1. UW (a truly stellar program)
2. MUSC (another gem)
3. Vanderbilt
4. U of Utah
5. Cleveland Clinic
6. North Shore-LIJ
7. Case Western (even though midwest > nyc for you, I can't bring myself to put this above LIJ)
   
8. U of Maryland
9. Beth Israel (could be higher if you liked nyc more)
10. Rutgers-RWJ
11. Maimonides
12. VCU (it's in richmond)
13. Loyola (!)
14. SUNY Downstate (ugh)

I was wondering why you put Case Western below North Shore LIJ. I really liked Case Western, more than Cleveland Clinic I'd say, just because it seems like they have great faculty, research (maybe not as strong as some other programs), fellowships, facilities, psychotherapy support. What about CW is not as appealing to you as, say, Cleveland Clinic? And why UMD so low? Just curious, because I'd like to be more informed when making my ROL. Thanks!

 

[Psychedelicious]

I was wondering why you put Case Western below North Shore LIJ. I really liked Case Western, more than Cleveland Clinic I'd say, just because it seems like they have great faculty, research (maybe not as strong as some other programs), fellowships, facilities, psychotherapy support. What about CW is not as appealing to you as, say, Cleveland Clinic? And why UMD so low? Just curious, because I'd like to be more informed when making my ROL. Thanks!

Because you said:

Location is a big thing for me as I'd like to be close to the Pacific Northwest, but the south would be my second choice (love the weather and have family there as well), and the midwest my third preference. I'm a very outdoors person and don't really want to live in a metropolis (NY), unless it's a great program or better than one that's farther up my list (ie BIMC and North Shore-LIJ). I would definitely sacrifice location for a good program.

The only programs on your list "good enough" to "sacrifice location" were Vanderbilt and LIJ. They are both excellent programs in my opinion (LIJ is quite underrated). Cleveland Clinic and Case Western are higher than University of Maryland because midwest was at least one of your three preferences whereas the east coast was not. If you liked Case Western more than Cleveland Clinic, definitely rank them based on how you felt! To me, weighing everything, Case Western seemed to be a middle-of-the-road program that was mostly average at everything (you are right about the research being weak as well) whereas Cleveland Clinic was at least very good at biological psychiatry (which is not to imply that they are less good at psychotherapy training - they have a lot of experienced faculty and would likely provide you an equivalent supervision, if not better). The only way Case Western could be higher than Cleveland Clinic for me is if I was planning to go into forensics (because they have Dr. Phillip Resnick).

 

[Lavenlian]

I was perusing this thread and saw one of the above posters referencing Hennepin County Medical Center-Regions Hospital Psychiatry Residency Program. I just wanted to give some feedback on my interview experience as I interviewed there last year and had a wonderful experience.

The program is coordinated between two hospitals, one in Minneapolis (Hennepin County Medical Center) and one in St. Paul (Regions Hospital), hence the hyphenated name. The program hosted a pre-interview dinner where a current senior resident actually picked me up from the hotel I was staying at (you're provided with a list of 3-4 hotels to stay at with program negotiated prices). The pre-interview dinner was with fellow applicants, current residents, and faculty. You had plenty of room to candidly speak to the residents and have your questions answered. However, all of the faculty including both assistant PDs (one for each hospital, if I remember correctly) and the PD did make it a point to come around greet each applicant, thank the applicant for coming to interview, and spend a few minutes talking.

The interview day went very smoothly and it was relaxed. All applicants started at the same hospital with breakfast and an overview of the program/benefits presentation. The applicants were then split up in two groups. Each group going to interview at one hospital and then switching to the other hospital after lunch time. In the morning, I was at Regions where I had a couple 20 minute interviews with faculty and a shorter one with the PD (he interviewed all the applicants as opposed to the other faculty members). Then came lunch and I was privy to historical/geographical presentation about the Twin Cities done by the PD. Personally, I'm a history and geography buff, so I enjoyed the presentation and it was quite unique. I had never experienced such a presentation anywhere I interviewed (I did 23 interviews last year). The PD went on to discuss specifics of the curriculum and there was more time to speak with residents.

In the afternoon, I was shuttled to Minneapolis where I had a couple more interviews with faculty. I believe one of them was with the Chairman of the Program. After the day had ended, I actually had the opportunity to take the light rail with a couple fellow applicants and the program coordinator at HCMC. I passed by the Timberwolves Arena (not sure if it is still called the Target Center) and the Metrodome. From the view I had on the light rail, Minneapolis is a beautiful city. The majority of riders on the light rail were actually professionals and I was surprised to see that. The light rail took me directly to the airport.

The program is of good size - 8 every year I believe. It was a mix of local American grads, Caribbean grads, and foreign grads. Everyone appeared to be really happy. The faculty were very enthusiastic. All of them had interest in teaching. Lots of the program graduates had chosen to stay in the Midwest especially Minnesota, but others found work in California and Texas. At that time, the program did not have fellowships in house, but it didn't seem to be an obstacle to the residents getting what they wanted if they chose to pursue fellowship. All the residents that wanted to do CAP were able to fast-track. The PD is actually an Addictions specialist and is very active in that area if someone was interested. I also believe PD had extensive previous training in psychology so the program stresses a balance between biological and psychological. At the time I interviewed, construction was underway for a new Psych facility at Regions, so patient volume did not appear to be an issue. Many of the senior residents were moonlighting in and around the Twin Cities. One actually would moonlight close to the border with North Dakota - he smiled and told me that it was very lucrative. So that's a plus for anyone interested in rural psychiatry. Also the Twin Cities has a large Eastern African immigrant population, so there is room for some work with diverse patients-cultural psychiatry if interested. There is a very active ECT service at HCMC and the attending that does most of the ECT is very high energy guy. I remember him telling me that if I wanted to learn ECT to come to the program and that he would make me an expert in ECT.

I ultimately ended up elsewhere due to family reasons because I have chronically ill parents. I definitely wish that this program was located in my neck of the woods. But if an applicant is looking in the Midwest or is open to relocating to the Minnesota area, I would take a hard look. It's a hidden gem of a program, but I don't think it will remain hidden much longer.

 

[rkaz]

Great post, Lavenlian! You should probably copy and paste your post to the 'interview reviews' thread so that others can easily reference it.

 

[Nasrudin]

Yeah that was a nice review.

I just finished my last interview. And as counterpoint to this thread's premise--that judgement of your own likes and dislikes can be subcontracted--I don't need a lick of help with my list.

Just don't think people can help each other with this type of thing any more than they could help you pick your spouse or anything else of such a personal nature. I trust both my instincts and my percpetion too much to do otherwise.

But good luck 2014. Here we go! However we do it, let's match!

 

[LUCKY84]

NEED HELP TO RANK, PLEASE. UW, CCF, UPMC, OSU

 

[Psychotic]

.

 

[Nasrudin]

Same here - I don't need any help or input. Not that it isn't a challenging task - it is. But I have already loaded the NRMP and certified, and I will be surprised if I change the order one bit between now and Feb 26.

And I am entertained by the requests for help, and the posting of lists. And I am glad to chime in when I think I have something relevant to offer, so keep posting requests.

Yeah. As we've discussed. It's certainly not without some hard thinking and introspection. Just can't imagine somebody else helping me with it directly beyond the preliminary stages of consideration.

By the way I almost hit certify in exultation of being done but wasn't sure about what clicking it meant. If we certify can we alter it or does it lock it in?

 

[Fenster]

By the way I almost hit certify in exultation of being done but wasn't sure about what clicking it meant. If we certify can we alter it or does it lock it in?

Changes can be made to a ROL after it has been certified; however, if a certified ROL is changed in any way (e.g., adding or deleting a program, changing the order of the programs, changing couple status), the new version MUST be certified in order to be used in a Match.

Reference: http://www.nrmp.org/match-process/create-and-certify-rol-applicants/

 

[David Cruise]

It's nice to hear someone else beside myself like Utah. I think it's not considered by a lot of people, my mentor/advisor told me to check it out also. I thought it offered excellent facilities, schedule, smart residents and great faculty! I even reviewed it on here. It will be the top of my rank list.

 

[Fenster]

But good luck 2014. Here we go! However we do it, let's match!

 

[shan564]

This thread is really helpful, I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm curious how one would rate the following list with the following criteria :

A program that is focused more on the medical/biological aspects of psychiatry, with opportunities available in the research of thought disorders would be ideal. Eventually I want to pursue a fellowship in psychosomatics.

I would be moving as a single person, and like to think I'm a laid back dude who enjoys the company of other like minded laid back folk.

Also, while I 've grown up in the south for the majority of my life, I'm not particularly keen on staying in the area during my residency.

Finally, small-medium sized cities would be preferable to big cities, but its not that big of a deal.

University of Connecticut
University New Mexico
Duke University
University of Vermont Fletcher Allen
University of Florida
Boston University
Dartmouth Hitchcock
University of South Florida
Mayo Clinic
University of Arizona
Cleveland Clinic
University of Chicago
University of Illinois Chicago

Prematurity aside, thank you for the help!

If you're thinking about biological psych programs, I'd say:

1. Duke
2. Mayo
3. Cleveland Clinic
4. Florida
5. UIC
the others might be interspersed in there, but I'm not as familiar with them

 

[vistaril]

If you're thinking about biological psych programs, I'd say:

1. Duke
2. Mayo
3. Cleveland Clinic
4. Florida
5. UIC
the others might be interspersed in there, but I'm not as familiar with them

unless you want a career both in research and academics, nobody gives a crap about this sort of thing.

 

[Firewood]

Hi guys!

I am finally done with my interviews and I started to think about rankings. I applied to the Texas programs mostly and am planning to stay there. Since I am a foreign medical graduate, I feel that I still need more information. What would you suggest about ranking these programs?

UTSW-Dallas
Baylor
Ut-Houston
Ut- Lubbock
JPS
Texas A&M

Sorry for the late reply.

I was a Texas applicant last year, and these are all very different programs. It would help if you could give us some more info on what's important to you. My impressions from last year:

UTSW - Arguably the most "well regarded" program both in & out of the state. Very work heavy (I was told by an attending who had recently completed training there that "you will be pushing the work hour limits your first two years".) Best pay of the lot. Large program with what looked like nice facilities. Dallas is a nice city with plenty to do. Research & fellowship options.

Baylor - Best "name recognition". Has big name faculty and Meninger Clinic, but time spent with either may be somewhat limited. Another larger program that has the reputation of being work heavy. Pay was not too impressive at rank time last year, but that may have changed. Houston is the 4th largest city in the US and has top 10 worst traffic, but is diverse with lots to do. Research & fellowships, too, if I recall correctly.

UT-Houston - Has a stand alone 220+ bed psych hospital where you spend extensive time. You will also be covering nights at least partially by yourself at this hospital (I think there's an overlapping night float system). Mid-size program for Texas. I think their child program is particularly strong. Research opportunities. Lots of faculty to find a mentor. Pay & benefits so-so. Houston pros & cons as above.

UT-Lubbock - Never been there.

JPS - I can't remember too much about this program, although I liked it. Seemed like a smaller but tight-knit program, with lots of faculty who've been there long-term. Relocation allowance. Don't recall any fellowships, but I may be wrong; you can go over to UTSW for child, though. Fort Worth is probably the best city in the list. Facilities seemed nice enough, and there's a psych ED.

Texas A&M - Very resident-centered program, it seemed like they really work hard to make the residency experience as beneficial and educational as possible. A&M seemed like a pretty laid-back and friendly program. Pay & benefits were on the nicer end for the state. Potential con is the location in Temple; it's not very urban. You're an hour away from Austin to the south, depending on traffic.

It would help to know your specific interests, though.

Good luck!

 

[Psychotic]

unless you want a career both in research and academics, nobody gives a crap about this sort of thing.

I agree with Vistaril.

It seems to me that too many people are too hung up on 1) the name over the door (the prestige thing), and 2) academic and research potential (when it seems to me that very few people end up doing either), and 3) caring way too much what others think about their rank list.

 

[rkaz]

I don't know if it is really an issue of caring what others think about their rank list - at least, not for me. I concur with Fenster that it is often hard to get a good feel of a program, especially only being there for a day, as many programs do start blending together and it's hard to tell them apart. I would also like to add that my ability to find out what I needed from a program changed over the course of interview season. In the beginning I just wanted to impress, and I really didn't know what questions were more important for me to be asking programs - but with subsequent interviews, a particular feature or two may have stood out at certain programs, and then I started asking other programs if they had options for that as well. So my ability to judge latter programs became more refined, but now I'm perplexed about some of my earlier interviews as I have a lot of unanswered questions that I wish I could go back and ask about.

Some of us also process things by bouncing off ideas on others - which isn't necessarily a bad thing. On one hand, I do appreciate your and Nasrudin's decisiveness, as being able to trust your own intuition and judgment is probably a good skill to have in a psychiatrist. Maybe others of us haven't yet gotten to the point of trusting sufficiently in our own gut feelings about things yet. Maybe we are trying to use logical reasoning to solve an emotional dilemma. But I don't think it is always a case of a person not being able to trust his/her own intuition or caring too much what others think, as it's sometimes just about not having enough info, and wanting to throw a program out there to see if anyone has any 'juicy tidbit' that they can add some information about. I don't necessarily find other people's rank lists to be as helpful as the *reasoning* given for ranking one program above another (if it's based more than just on gut feel) as that is something I can consider for my own list. It's the next 4 years of our lives after all....

It seems to me that too many people are too hung up on 1) the name over the door (the prestige thing), and 2) academic and research potential (when it seems to me that very few people end up doing either), and 3) caring way too much what others think about their rank list.

 

[Nasrudin]

I don't know if it is really an issue of caring what others think about their rank list - at least, not for me. I concur with Fenster that it is often hard to get a good feel of a program, especially only being there for a day, as many programs do start blending together and it's hard to tell them apart. I would also like to add that my ability to find out what I needed from a program changed over the course of interview season. In the beginning I just wanted to impress, and I really didn't know what questions were more important for me to be asking programs - but with subsequent interviews, a particular feature or two may have stood out at certain programs, and then I started asking other programs if they had options for that as well. So my ability to judge latter programs became more refined, but now I'm perplexed about some of my earlier interviews as I have a lot of unanswered questions that I wish I could go back and ask about.

Some of us also process things by bouncing off ideas on others - which isn't necessarily a bad thing. On one hand, I do appreciate your and Nasrudin's decisiveness, as being able to trust your own intuition and judgment is probably a good skill to have in a psychiatrist. Maybe others of us haven't yet gotten to the point of trusting sufficiently in our own gut feelings about things yet. Maybe we are trying to use logical reasoning to solve an emotional dilemma. But I don't think it is always a case of a person not being able to trust his/her own intuition or caring too much what others think, as it's sometimes just about not having enough info, and wanting to throw a program out there to see if anyone has any 'juicy tidbit' that they can add some information about. I don't necessarily find other people's rank lists to be as helpful as the *reasoning* given for ranking one program above another (if it's based more than just on gut feel) as that is something I can consider for my own list. It's the next 4 years of our lives after all....

Great point. I don't mean to assert one approach over another. Or that it's a question of skill. I'm just in the "go with your gut and if you work hard you'll likely get the chance to become a good psychiatrist no matter where you go camp."

And at times I have discovered things in my life while in conversation as a well of thinking about things.

To tell the truth I sometimes vomit up ideas to see what they look like in conversation. Recently I attacked psychoanalysis. I really don't know what I think about it other than I poked at it with a stick like a boy might do a lion at the Zoo. Just to see if its real.

 

[moonshined]

.

 

[Psychotic]

I don't know if it is really an issue of caring what others think about their rank list - at least, not for me. I concur with Fenster that it is often hard to get a good feel of a program, especially only being there for a day, as many programs do start blending together and it's hard to tell them apart. I would also like to add that my ability to find out what I needed from a program changed over the course of interview season. In the beginning I just wanted to impress, and I really didn't know what questions were more important for me to be asking programs - but with subsequent interviews, a particular feature or two may have stood out at certain programs, and then I started asking other programs if they had options for that as well. So my ability to judge latter programs became more refined, but now I'm perplexed about some of my earlier interviews as I have a lot of unanswered questions that I wish I could go back and ask about.

Some of us also process things by bouncing off ideas on others - which isn't necessarily a bad thing. On one hand, I do appreciate your and Nasrudin's decisiveness, as being able to trust your own intuition and judgment is probably a good skill to have in a psychiatrist. Maybe others of us haven't yet gotten to the point of trusting sufficiently in our own gut feelings about things yet. Maybe we are trying to use logical reasoning to solve an emotional dilemma. But I don't think it is always a case of a person not being able to trust his/her own intuition or caring too much what others think, as it's sometimes just about not having enough info, and wanting to throw a program out there to see if anyone has any 'juicy tidbit' that they can add some information about. I don't necessarily find other people's rank lists to be as helpful as the *reasoning* given for ranking one program above another (if it's based more than just on gut feel) as that is something I can consider for my own list. It's the next 4 years of our lives after all....

A lot of the programs blended together for me, too, but from that I have concluded I will be fine at a bunch of different programs, so I focus more on the location as the tiebreaker (what separates #1 from #2, so on). That is the essence of my process in a nutshell, that with a list of acceptable programs, location is the key.

I started "researching" programs and locations 2 years ago, relying heavily on SDN to make up my app list, and also checking out cities through other sources like city-data forums, etc. So by the time the app list got boiled down to the 12 programs and cities where I interviewed, I had a pretty good idea about the pros and cons of both the programs and the locations. I still got surprised, mostly pleasantly, by some of the locations I wasn't as sure about that ended up being "better" than what I expected. Only one city "disappointed" me, but I liked the program and will still rank it, just near the bottom of my list.

I have thought about it, and I think this is a huge factor in what helped me be so decisive: for nearly every interview in a city I had never before visited (which was most of them), I spent an extra full day looking around, checking out neighborhoods. It cost more money, and an extra day of my precious time (but I interviewed during a vacation period, so the time factor wasn't much of an issue), but it was well worth it. If all one did was drop into a city after dark, spent the next day inside a building answering the same questions and seeing the same stuff you have seen everywhere else, and then you rush off to the airport, I can see how not only programs but locations are hard to differentiate. When I spent the extra day, it was usually the day after the interview, especially for places I flew to. I found it was very difficult to schedule a return flight the evening of an interview, anyway, so I just stayed an extra day, looking around.

Bottom line: I don't think there is just one perfect program or location for me, but I am not restricted by family considerations in this process, and I don't have to worry about a job for a spouse or sig other (got neither), or schools for kids (got none), nor do I need to be near aging parents (mine are pretty spry). As for programs, I am simply looking for solid clinical training (I have no research or academic interests, and I am undecided about fellowships at this point) in a non-malignant program with reasonable workload, populated with friendly/happy people, in a city where I can find diversions when I get some time off. As for locations, climate matters a lot to me; no more snowy cold winters for this guy, and I care about reasonable cost of living, and I would prefer at most a medium sized city with good transportation options (either less driving involved, or the majority of program sites are in a single location, or if there is lots of driving, it isn't a burden, with easy parking, etc).

One final thought on the "not caring what others think" thing: What I mean is that nobody can really help me with this decision - only I know what matters to me, and as much information as I can provide as to my process, I seriously doubt if anyone could come up the rank list I now have. I do trust my process, and my judgment, and I do have people I bounce ideas off of, but there is nothing someone could tell me at this point that would affect the order of the programs on my rank list. Shorthand for the above is "I don't care what others think."

 

[gqdoc03]

What's up everyone! Exciting time for us all coming up. It's been tough deciding this Rank list. Hoping more so for either my number 1 or 2. Any thoughts on HSS and Rush anyone? I am torn whether I want that 3 or 4.
Thanks!

1. Yale
2. Emory
3. HSS (or 4)
4. Rush (or 3)
5. Dartmouth
6. Rochester
7. SUNY Upstate
8. UT- San Antonio

 

[prittypistol]

Need help deciding which to rank ahead of the other

Tulane
LIJ

Each has different +/- for me like no VA, weather, etc so just curious if anyone had differentiation

 

[moonshined]

.

 

[moonshined]

.

 

[Osteosarcoma]

Hi guys

I need help to rank

1. HSS
2.rutgers njms

3. Wayne state
4. U buffalo


I am highly confused between 1& 2

 

[deleted314290]

Can anyone comment on whether or not going to a top 10 program would provide better/more opportunity in the future compared to mid tier programs? I understand its mostly the performance of the resident and their ability as a psychiatrist, but how much does pedigree play in the big picture? I am interested in academics but at the same time could see myself in the community where this wouldnt even matter. I am conflicted and it sucks.

 

[silas2642]

I'm curious. Why Dartmouth so low down?

I would certainly have ranked Dartmouth over HSS, although admittedly, Hanover is in the middle of nowhere.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Can anyone comment on whether or not going to a top 10 program would provide better/more opportunity in the future compared to mid tier programs? I understand its mostly the performance of the resident and their ability as a psychiatrist, but how much does pedigree play in the big picture? I am interested in academics but at the same time could see myself in the community where this wouldnt even matter. I am conflicted and it sucks.

Going to a top academic program only provides better/more opportunity for you to go into academics.
Being "interested" in academics is very different than actually "doing" academics, in my experience.
You will not be paid more or have a noticeably easier time finding a job vs a "mid-tier" program.

 

[deleted314290]

Going to a top academic program only provides better/more opportunity for you to go into academics.
Being "interested" in academics is very different than actually "doing" academics, in my experience.
You will not be paid more or have a noticeably easier time finding a job vs a "mid-tier" program.

Thanks for your response! I'll make sure to remember that when I submit my rank list.

 

[gqdoc03]

I'm curious. Why Dartmouth so low down?

What's up man. I have learned during the interview trail that just about every program has their own fit and flavor. Dartmouth provides very good clinical training, but it simply isn't my best fit. Of course location is a factor, but having the opportunity to interact with a diverse group of population matters as well to me at least. Hope that helps.. Just keep in mind that its not only about the name.. What can you bring to the program? And do you fit??

 

[pisekar]

Woow! psychedelicious and firewood, very much appreciated for your feedbacks. I actually felt same way during my interviews.

 

[shan564]

Can anyone comment on whether or not going to a top 10 program would provide better/more opportunity in the future compared to mid tier programs? I understand its mostly the performance of the resident and their ability as a psychiatrist, but how much does pedigree play in the big picture? I am interested in academics but at the same time could see myself in the community where this wouldnt even matter. I am conflicted and it sucks.

I felt the same way at this time last year. While I agree that going to a "top 10" program won't open many extra non-academic doors, it most certainly won't close any doors either.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

I go to a program in California with a famous name (top 10 in terms of academic reputation), and while it feels good I can't say it's any better then other less famous programs. My advice is pick based on chemistry, like getting married. If you connect with the people at a program, the area, the character, the vibe, the curriculum, then go for it. But to be fair staffing companies contact us early, maybe because of the name/reputation?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I go to a program in California with a famous name (top 10 in terms of academic reputation), and while it feels good I can't say it's any better then other less famous programs. My advice is pick based on chemistry, like getting married. If you connect with the people at a program, the area, the character, the vibe, the curriculum, then go for it. But to be fair staffing companies contact us early, maybe because of the name/reputation?

Hate to burst your bubble, but the staffing companies contact EVERYONE early.