Official 2015-2016 "What Are My Chances" Thread

[Rogue Penguin]

I have similar stats with a few points lower on step 1, and just took CK last week. No red flags and all my cores are completed but no particular ties to the area. I received an invite from them on Monday so maybe wait a few days before getting too nervous. Good luck!

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[MacDonaldTriad]

Since almost no one fails clinical rotations, I guarantee you no program directors pay attention to which applicants have completed all of their cores and which ones have not. I have never heard this mentioned and it has never come up. It is all about gaps, repeats, and scores. No one sits around and wonders why this one did pediatric ortho surgery and that one did neuro surgery. Everyone does all of the cores by definition. Now if there is a worry that someone will not graduate by June that is a real issue. This means a low step one and no step two.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Since almost no one fails clinical rotations, I guarantee you no program directors pay attention to which applicants have completed all of their cores and which ones have not. I have never heard this mentioned and it has never come up. It is all about gaps, repeats, and scores. No one sits around and wonders why this one did pediatric ortho surgery and that one did neuro surgery. Everyone does all of the cores by definition. Now if there is a worry that someone will not graduate by June that is a real issue. This means a low step one and no step two.

Thank you, that's helpful. Just out of curiosity, why is a "gap" such a huge deal? I have a friend who was diagnosed with cancer during medical school. She had to take some time off because of that. She did some light research work during treatment, but nothing major. She was sick. Anyway, it's now in remission, and she's back in school. Is she going to get dinged for having cancer? No offense meant to anyone, but that seems truly absurd to me. Like becoming ill is unprofessional or something? Grades and test scores are so important in medical school. It seems silly to keep going when you're significantly debilitated by an illness for an extended period of time.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Gaps can be fine, unexplained gaps need to be explored. Did you work for the peace corps, or did you do time?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

I wonder how many residency applicants have actually done time. That would be an interesting statistic to be aware of.

 

[notdeadyet]

I wonder how many residency applicants have actually done time. That would be an interesting statistic to be aware of.

Residencies will be very reluctant to take anyone who has a sufficient criminal history to prohibit them getting a medical and/or DEA license. It's been a while, but I think they specifically ask about convictions if not arrests.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Right, that totally makes sense. They do ask about convictions. I don't recall if they asked about arrests. I don't think so. I don't have a history of either. That's one section of my application I know couldn't have been better. Haha

 

[splik]

Right, that totally makes sense. They do ask about convictions. I don't recall if they asked about arrests. I don't think so. I don't have a history of either. That's one section of my application I know couldn't have been better. Haha

maybe not so rogue after all, ms. penguin?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

maybe not so rogue after all, ms. penguin?

Hahaha! Or I just don't get caught

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Aside from some DUIs, the positives among ten years of applications include shoplifting, and my favorite, discharge of a fire arm within 100 yards of a private barn. Once I saw misdemeanor “immoral turpitude”, I was anxious to meet this person, but unfortunately they declined so I never got to ask. Possibly an ambitious and unique approach to funding college?

 

[vanfanal]

When is it appropriate to begin to panic about interviews, since I have yet to receive any?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

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[splik]

When is it appropriate to begin to panic about interviews, since I have yet to receive any?

for IMGs if you still haven't heard by the end of October you can begin to worry. Remember many places wont review IMG applications until after they have finished reviewing the allopathic medical students. I would inquire around 3rd week of october if still not hearing...

 

[vanfanal]

for IMGs if you still haven't heard by the end of October you can begin to worry. Remember many places wont review IMG applications until after they have finished reviewing the allopathic medical students. I would inquire around 3rd week of october if still not hearing...

Right. That helps a bit. Thanks.

 

[flaun]

@splik does your advice apply to osteopathic applicants too (3rd week of October before panicking)? Applied to 36 programs and nothing yet (basically applied to all programs with research tracks in CA, WA, NY, NJ, PA, MA, RI, IL, MI, so not a lot of safety programs in there). Worried about my LORs, I foolishly submitted my application with 4 letters assigned to most programs so it would be considered 'complete'. None of those were sub-i letters, as I thought I could reassign them once I got the sub-i letters...just found out I can't change the letter assignments now that it's been submitted! I thought I was being thorough, but I must of missed the fine print on that policy, really really disappointed.
Step 1: 214
Step 2 CK: 222
School: Relatively competitive osteopathic (dual DO/MPH)
Class Rank: within 1 SD of mean
Grades in Clerkship: A's in every rotation
AOA: SSP yes, Gold Humanism yes
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: 3 pubs (2 first name) and lot's of extracurriculars (president of active org, student clinic coordinator)
Red Flags: Took leave first semester to finish MPH thesis, no fails.
Overview of where you want to end up: West or East coast with research track program.

 

[thxleave]

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[DOpsych22]

I'm starting to panic too. Only one interview that i got early in September.

I failed the comlex pe (cs). I retook it and passed already. I have no idea why I failed, but I am afraid this is what is preventing me from getting interviews and I am very frustrated about it.

Usmle 1/2: 238, 245
Comlex 1/2: 708, 715
Class rank: top 5%, DO school
Clinicals: some honors

Ive applied to over 40 programs, including ones I felt were good backups. Is it too late to add AOA programs? Am I panicking too early? Ive already spent so much money on applications....

 

[thxleave]

............

 

[SourceOfDenial]

I'm starting to panic too. Only one interview that i got early in September.

I failed the comlex pe (cs). I retook it and passed already. I have no idea why I failed, but I am afraid this is what is preventing me from getting interviews and I am very frustrated about it.

Usmle 1/2: 238, 245
Comlex 1/2: 708, 715
Class rank: top 5%, DO school
Clinicals: some honors

Ive applied to over 40 programs, including ones I felt were good backups. Is it too late to add AOA programs? Am I panicking too early? Ive already spent so much money on applications....

When reviewing applications I would expect that schools would view the USMLE scores and not worry too much about comlex. I could be mistaken though.

 

[Trousseau]

46 is overkill for a US MD. 12 is fine and 20 is actually overkill. Even scheduling 10 interviews unless all in the same city/region will be tricky. I would make a rank list of those you are considering and just pick those in the top 20.

As to 'work intensive' - think of it this way. All programs have to fulfill the same ACGME requirements so there is going to be a floor on the minimum hours. Some programs may have more work, some less, but in the end it is not going to be wildly different. Each resident will find the work different too. I know medical students who are now residents at 'easy' programs who find it tough and others at 'tough' programs who find it super easy.

What if you have a lower STEP-1 Score (210)? I am such a student at a US MD school, and I was thinking about my application strategy recently. I've heard horror stories this year about people not having many interviews, so I was going to apply to 50+ programs or so. I have no real geographic preference.

Additionally, are there Psych "safety" programs I should apply to? Someone told me in another thread that if I chose Internal Medicine (another field I'm considering), I should reserve ~30% of my application list for "safety" community IM programs. Should I do something similar in Psych?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Generally, people say you should apply to 1/3 reach, 1/3 safety, and 1/3 intermediate programs. What qualifies as a "safety" program really depends on the applicant. Places where you have connections or personal ties can be good "safeties". Your home program and any state schools in your state of residence might be places where you have a higher probability of matching. Beyond that I've found it challenging to assess which programs are good "safety" programs. Obviously, the programs that people are constantly discussing as competitive or high quality are not good safeties.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Generally, people say you should apply to 1/3 reach, 1/3 safety, and 1/3 intermediate programs. What qualifies as a "safety" program really depends on the applicant. Places where you have connections or personal ties can be good "safeties". Your home program and any state schools in your state of residence might be places where you have a higher probability of matching. Beyond that I've found it challenging to assess which programs are good "safety" programs. Obviously, the programs that people are constantly discussing as competitive or high quality are not good safeties.

On an unrelated note, it's really looking more and more like I'm not even going to have the opportunity to interview in the city I most want to live in. My significant other lives in that city and can't leave it. My family, many of whom are ill to the point that they may die before I finish residency, live nearby as well. While I'm definitely grateful to have interviews, I'm starting to question whether I can be happy living so far from home for four more years. I don't know that there's anything I'd be willing to sacrifice spending time with my father during the last years of his life for. When I sent out my applications, I didn't realize I was going to feel this way. I wasn't expecting to not have this location as an option. I'm not sure what to do. No other cities with psych residencies are really close enough that I'd be able to visit my family on a day off. I've emailed all the programs in the city in question, and I've had no luck. Do I have any options other than the obvious "suck it up and deal with it"?

What do you mean by having no luck with emailing? Have you not heard back or have you heard back something that was officially discouraging? If you haven't heard back, it could mean they're just sorting through their huge stack of applications. As I recall, the program you especially want isn't super competitive and isn't in a location heavily desired by others. It's still really early so I don't think you're at the point where you should be officially discouraged yet.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

deleted

 

[Monocles]

Well, as far as my primary program of concern here, I haven't officially heard anything. It does seem that they've already sent out a fair number of invites though, including some after I initially contacted them. I can agree that no news is good news here, but it's hard to avoid getting nervous when something with something that means so much to me.

The other program in the same city replied to me that they don't interview US medical grads without Step 2 CS and Step 2 CK scores. I'll get CK back in November, but the earliest I could get CS is December 9th. If they still have interview spots open at that point, there's a chance that they'll offer me one, but that seems like a big if.

Maybe I'm being pessimistic. I guess I like to handle uncertainty by having plans for as many contingencies as possible. My friend keeps asserting that the whole application process is random, which is meant to make me feel better but actually increases my stress.

Wait, are you serious? There are programs that require a CS score before interview now? I thought we just had to get that in before rank lists are made?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

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[splik]

Wait, are you serious? There are programs that require a CS score before interview now? I thought we just had to get that in before rank lists are made?

presumably these are programs that have predominantly IMG residents where this would be expected and they are just levelling the field by requiring it of everyone.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I found it pretty odd as well. To be fair, I doubt most people even consider applying to this place.

Is it one of those 100% IMG types of places? Those places are not really set up or it seems that interested in taking AMGs. Instead, they get high quality, compliant, hard working, non complaining IMGs.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

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[WingedOx]

presumably these are programs that have predominantly IMG residents where this would be expected and they are just levelling the field by requiring it of everyone.

Apparently as of recently, a passing score is required to match. I don't remember this being the case when I went through it, but one of the programs nearby ran into trouble with the NRMP when one of their matches didn't have a score.

 

[splik]

Apparently as of recently, a passing score is required to match. I don't remember this being the case when I went through it, but one of the programs nearby ran into trouble with the NRMP when one of their matches didn't have a score.

This might be state dependent. In my state residents are not required to have even done the USMLEs in order to get a limited license so we do match people who might only have step 1 as it won't cause any of these issues.

 

[bd290]

Wait, are you serious? There are programs that require a CS score before interview now? I thought we just had to get that in before rank lists are made?

Then maybe they should offer more testing spots. I've been checking the damn website like 5 times a day (since July when I got my loan money so I could pay the extortion fee) trying to get an open seat at any time before the end of november (aka the time you have to take it by to get your scores in time) and have found nothing. So I'm probably entirely screwed.

 

[Achillees]

Then maybe they should offer more testing spots. I've been checking the damn website like 5 times a day (since July when I got my loan money so I could pay the extortion fee) trying to get an open seat at any time before the end of november (aka the time you have to take it by to get your scores in time) and have found nothing. So I'm probably entirely screwed.

Source for "end of November to get scores back in time"?
I'd heard of people taking it late December and getting results back in time.

 

[Pursuitofsanity]

Check the score release information. For CS this year, all test dates in November and December are basically equivalent, you'll get the score on the same day for a test taken December 31st as you will for one taken November 1st.

 

[bd290]

Check the score release information. For CS this year, all test dates in November and December are basically equivalent, you'll get the score on the same day for a test taken December 31st as you will for one taken November 1st.

The last reporting day, which they say is more likely for end of blocks is feb 24th which is probably after most match list meetings. So things in late December would probably miss mid February. It doesn't really matter cause I can't even get a day in December so mine is scheduled for January as of now. Now I'm super psyched about not matching because of it.

 

[temoojin]

Step 1: 222
Step 2 CK/ CS: not yet taken (MS3)
School: D.O.
Class Rank: top quarter
Grades in Clerkship: High A's in Psych, IM, Surg
AOA: yerp
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: previous master's in basic sciences, class VP, some volunteer hours, planning to volunteer with local planned parenthood in near future
Red Flags: (step failures, etc) Got 1 "C" in med school in OMM.
Overview of where you want to end up: I want to be near nature, not in a big city. Top prospects I've come across are OHSU, SLC Utah, Maine Medical Center. I would like to do some research on addiction, and/or sports. Home is a larger mid-atlantic state city. I would like MMC and stay on the same coast, but am I competitive vs. the kids from from UNECOM/Tufts? There's not too much info about that program available here nor on their website as in DO friendliness, current residents, etc. Should I take USMLE step 2 on top of COMLEX?

 

[WalterDonnie]

Step 1: 222
Step 2 CK/ CS: not yet taken (MS3)
School: D.O.
Class Rank: top quarter
Grades in Clerkship: High A's in Psych, IM, Surg
AOA: yerp
Research/ Publications/ Extracurriculars: previous master's in basic sciences, class VP, some volunteer hours, planning to volunteer with local planned parenthood in near future
Red Flags: (step failures, etc) Got 1 "C" in med school in OMM.
Overview of where you want to end up: I want to be near nature, not in a big city. Top prospects I've come across are OHSU, SLC Utah, Maine Medical Center. I would like to do some research on addiction, and/or sports. Home is a larger mid-atlantic state city. I would like MMC and stay on the same coast, but am I competitive vs. the kids from from UNECOM/Tufts? There's not too much info about that program available here nor on their website as in DO friendliness, current residents, etc. Should I take USMLE step 2 on top of COMLEX?

Can't answer any of your other questions, but definitely take step 2.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

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[Pursuitofsanity]

Confirmed that Vanderbilt has sent out ~100 interviews and will likely only send out more if someone cancels if at all. So... is it time to give up on being with my s.o. and family for now? Like... doing a research year and reapplying isn't a viable option, is it?

So sorry to hear that Rogue, as someone who is in a similar boat trying to get where my SO is, I feel your pain. I had a couple of conversations with advisers about this situation with regards to planning my applications and thinking about rank list way in advance. The advice that I got was a solid, unequivocal "Match this year or you are a fool."

Now, that being said, as someone with 7 years of full time, psychiatry related research, an additional research year would do nothing at all to strengthen my application. I know people that have applied in other specialties who had less extensive research experience who really benefited from taking a year to do research in the field at an institution they were interested in, and ending up matching there. I would talk to your advisers (and possibly also the PD at Vanderbilt, if you are shooting for a specific place, putting that out there can be very helpful. I talked to PDs last year when my SO was making choices about where to move, and they were super responsive and helpful.)

 

[Rogue Penguin]

So sorry to hear that Rogue, as someone who is in a similar boat trying to get where my SO is, I feel your pain. I had a couple of conversations with advisers about this situation with regards to planning my applications and thinking about rank list way in advance. The advice that I got was a solid, unequivocal "Match this year or you are a fool."

Now, that being said, as someone with 7 years of full time, psychiatry related research, an additional research year would do nothing at all to strengthen my application. I know people that have applied in other specialties who had less extensive research experience who really benefited from taking a year to do research in the field at an institution they were interested in, and ending up matching there. I would talk to your advisers (and possibly also the PD at Vanderbilt, if you are shooting for a specific place, putting that out there can be very helpful. I talked to PDs last year when my SO was making choices about where to move, and they were super responsive and helpful.)

Thanks for your comments. I've taken your advice and sent out a few more emails. Hopefully, one of them will yield constructive results.

I wish I'd known this was going to be an issue. My school doesn't have any sort of dedicated advising service. The closest thing we have is our Dean of Student Affairs. There's one of him and about 800 med students, so it's hard to have an in depth discussion with him. It's honestly unclear to me if giving us career advice falls under the jurisdiction of his job. Whenever I've discussed Vanderbilt with doctors I might consider mentors, I've always been assured that I'd "definitely" get an interview there. SDN told me the same thing. I'm not sure what went wrong. A lot of things have changed in the past year that have increased my desire to be at Vanderbilt. My relationship with my S.O. has gotten a lot more serious. My father's health has deteriorated significantly. And a close friend of mine passed away unexpectedly in April... which doesn't sound like it should be relevant, but it is. I don't mean to come across as defensive here, but I also don't want to come across as someone who's up a creek without a paddle due to negligence.

I have interviews at competitive programs that are of a similar caliber to Vanderbilt, and I have interviews at "weaker" programs that are a little closer to home. It's going to be difficult to choose between sacrificing my personal life for the sake of my career and potentially sacrificing the quality of my training for the sake of my personal life.

 

[splik]

I have interviews at competitive programs that are of a similar caliber to Vanderbilt, and I have interviews at "weaker" programs that are a little closer to home. It's going to be difficult to choose between sacrificing my personal life for the sake of my career and potentially sacrificing the quality of my training for the sake of my personal life.

this might be a silly question, but did you tell vandy any of this?

 

[Rogue Penguin]

this might be a silly question, but did you tell vandy any of this?

I didn't mention the other programs, because I was afraid that sounded... idk, catty. I did tell them they're my first choice right now and that I have family and friends nearby. My s.o.'s PI emailed the PD when my s.o. mentioned me applying. The PD reportedly acknowledged that email, so I know he at least got that one. However, that wasn't until after the last Vandy interview invite documented on SDN. As far as the dilemma I'll possibly be facing in my rank order list, I assumed they don't care after they didn't respond to my first two attempts to contact them. Perhaps that's not an accurate assumption.

Like I said, I have no real source of advising, so I'm at a loss for the best course of action, email tone, etc.

 

[DuskPhilosophy]

It's going to be difficult to choose between sacrificing my personal life for the sake of my career and potentially sacrificing the quality of my training for the sake of my personal life.

This part is what i'm trying to wrap my head around. My SO is in his intern year at a school I never would have applied to, and i'm having trouble deciding between following them to a less "respected" school, or going to one of my 5 "dream" programs (two of which I have interviews at and 3 which i'm hoping to hear from soon). They say the training is the same everywhere but *insert kanye shrug*

 

[Rogue Penguin]

They say the training is the same everywhere

Patently, false. Idk who says that. In many cases there may be only small differences, but if you're interested in research or developing serious psychotherapy skills, the resources you have available clearly make a huge difference. Places like Johns Hopkins that have tons of research going on and all types of specialized units clearly are going to give you a different experience than a place that's bragging about their 16 patient inpatient unit. That's not quite the discrepancy I'm facing, but if I don't mesh well with one particular program that I'm not psyched about anyway, it will be close to that level.

 

[Psychotic]

Patently, false. Idk who says that. In many cases there may be only small differences, but if you're interested in research or developing serious psychotherapy skills, the resources you have available clearly make a huge difference. Places like Johns Hopkins that have tons of research going on and all types of specialized units clearly are going to give you a different experience than a place that's bragging about their 16 patient inpatient unit. That's not quite the discrepancy I'm facing, but if I don't mesh well with one particular program that I'm not psyched about anyway, it will be close to that level.

MS4s, in the app process, assign much greater significance and difference to programs than really exists. Of course there are "differences" between research oriented and community programs, but in the end, the differences are not that great in terms of core clinical training.

Also, "serious" psychotherapy skills and training are not found at any program - that comes separately, or later, for those most interested in it. It is not difficult to find psychotherapy mentors in virtually every program - show initiative and you can get a good intro to psychotherapy most places.

 

[SmallBird]

Also, "serious" psychotherapy skills and training are not found at any program - that comes separately, or later, for those most interested in it. It is not difficult to find psychotherapy mentors in virtually every program - show initiative and you can get a good intro to psychotherapy most places.

I don't agree with this. There is a general edict that it can take a decade to get really good at psychotherapy, but in terms of getting enough experience to be very competent, and in a position to offer private practice psychotherapy with legitimacy in the community, I believe this is obtainable. In my PGY-3 year I had 20 - 25 weekly psychotherapy cases. I'd be pretty comfortable hanging up my shingle at this point, should I be interested in that. And I do not doubt that other residencies offer similar opportunities. However, I am also sure that this is not possible at every program, and so it does pay to try and understand this ahead of time.

 

[Psychotic]

I don't agree with this. There is a general edict that it can take a decade to get really good at psychotherapy, but in terms of getting enough experience to be very competent, and in a position to offer private practice psychotherapy with legitimacy in the community, I believe this is obtainable. In my PGY-3 year I had 20 - 25 weekly psychotherapy cases. I'd be pretty comfortable hanging up my shingle at this point, should I be interested in that. And I do not doubt that other residencies offer similar opportunities. However, I am also sure that this is not possible at every program, and so it does pay to try and understand this ahead of time.

My main point is that core clinical training across the spectrum of programs is much more similar than dissimilar, and you can find mentors in research and psychotherapy in most if not all places.

OK, for "serious" psychotherapy training, n=1 (Yale, right?). Others will chime in, of course, on the special virtues of their program RE psychotherapy training. So how many programs are equivalent to yours? My guess - a distinct minority, maybe counted on one hand? Two hands? Whatever...

But the reality is the vast majority of us are happy with basic exposure to psychotherapy and other therapy modalities that we get in 3rd and 4th year, not the immersion in any one area. You say you feel competent enough to hang your shingle as a psychotherapist after PGY 3 (it would be helpful to hear what psychotherapists with extensive extra training would make of your self assessment), but I am much more concerned with feeling competent to hang my generalist psychiatry shingle after 4 years, and most of the people I know feel the same way.

The things that MS4s say about what they want in a program, especially research opportunities, seems to fade away for most folks once they see what that life entails, what life in academic psychiatry means career-wise, etc. No path to research or basic psychotherapy training is closed to anyone in virtually any program if you have the initiative and desire to seek it out.

My point to applicants: when applying and interviewing, focus on the core training, the teaching, the breadth of that training, the balance of work / life issues, etc.

 

[SmallBird]

My main point is that core clinical training across the spectrum of programs is much more similar than dissimilar, and you can find mentors in research and psychotherapy in most if not all places.

OK, for "serious" psychotherapy training, n=1 (Yale, right?). Others will chime in, of course, on the special virtues of their program RE psychotherapy training. So how many programs are equivalent to yours? My guess - a distinct minority, maybe counted on one hand? Two hands? Whatever...

But the reality is the vast majority of us are happy with basic exposure to psychotherapy and other therapy modalities that we get in 3rd and 4th year, not the immersion in any one area. You say you feel competent enough to hang your shingle as a psychotherapist after PGY 3 (it would be helpful to hear what psychotherapists with extensive extra training would make of your self assessment), but I am much more concerned with feeling competent to hang my generalist psychiatry shingle after 4 years, and most of the people I know feel the same way.

The things that MS4s say about what they want in a program, especially research opportunities, seems to fade away for most folks once they see what that life entails, what life in academic psychiatry means career-wise, etc. No path to research or basic psychotherapy training is closed to anyone in virtually any program if you have the initiative and desire to seek it out.

My point to applicants: when applying and interviewing, focus on the core training, the teaching, the breadth of that training, the balance of work / life issues, etc.

I don't disagree with your point about emphasizing the importance of general training, and also agree that as a medical student one might not be well positioned to make a decision about going all in for psychotherapy. But you explicitly stated that "serious" psychotherapy skills cannot be found anywhere, and it is on that point I would disagree. Trying to find out if this is something that is typically possible in a given program seems like a reasonable thing to want to do. I don't have a sense of how many other programs would make people feel similarly equipped. I would also be interested to know what experienced psychotherapists would make of my self-assessment, but in the absence of this information being forthcoming, I am reassured by the pattern of previous graduates successfully following this path in the local area with no apparent difficulty.

 

[downwithDTB]

The things that MS4s say about what they want in a program, especially research opportunities, seems to fade away for most folks once they see what that life entails, what life in academic psychiatry means career-wise, etc. No path to research or basic psychotherapy training is closed to anyone in virtually any program if you have the initiative and desire to seek it out.

This is of course true of those seeking a little "research" elective to publish a "paper." However, for those looking for real protected time measured greater than a full 12 months with no clinical responsibilities, some extra cash and money to actually do the research leading to an outside shot at getting a K award... I'd be shocked if the path to training was *open* at most programs. A *little initiative* might be an understatement when you have a full call schedule and some clinical responsibilities. The *three* people with MDs who got K08 awards from the NIMH trained at UCSD, NYU and Cornell. The psychiatrist K23 list is longer with 6 people, grads of the Stanford, Columbia, Hopkins/CHoP, Wash U., Mayo Clinic and University of Alabama programs... it would take forever to really look into it, but it'd wager that if I went back a few years, some of those programs would come up again, while others probably not. A quick interview question "How many of your grads have received K/R awards and how long after they started residency?" would probably settle this debate rather quickly. I do agree, however, that most people going into residency in general are not realistically getting themselves set for this sort of career path, so it is probably moot for 99%, including most residents at "top" programs.

 

[Psychotic]

I do agree, however, that most people going into residency in general are not realistically getting themselves set for this sort of career path, so it is probably moot for 99%, including most residents at "top" programs.

That is all I am saying. Maybe SDN has a disproportionate percentage of the folks looking for heavy duty research, or extensive psychotherapy training in 3rd year described by smallbird - but I am addressing my ideas and advice to the vast majority of folks who will never go down this path. For them, don't be overly distracted by the "name" over the door of the institution, its research prowess, etc. Focus on the core clinical training, and find the best program for that.

 

[Jorje286]

This is of course true of those seeking a little "research" elective to publish a "paper." However, for those looking for real protected time measured greater than a full 12 months with no clinical responsibilities, some extra cash and money to actually do the research leading to an outside shot at getting a K award... I'd be shocked if the path to training was *open* at most programs. A *little initiative* might be an understatement when you have a full call schedule and some clinical responsibilities. The *three* people with MDs who got K08 awards from the NIMH trained at UCSD, NYU and Cornell. The psychiatrist K23 list is longer with 6 people, grads of the Stanford, Columbia, Hopkins/CHoP, Wash U., Mayo Clinic and University of Alabama programs... it would take forever to really look into it, but it'd wager that if I went back a few years, some of those programs would come up again, while others probably not. A quick interview question "How many of your grads have received K/R awards and how long after they started residency?" would probably settle this debate rather quickly. I do agree, however, that most people going into residency in general are not realistically getting themselves set for this sort of career path, so it is probably moot for 99%, including most residents at "top" programs.

Thank you. Very useful information. It's also not only about protected time for research, but the kind of research. Program can have very different emphases and this will narrow down the list even further.