Official 2015 Rank Order List and "Help me rank" thread

[Psych56]

Hello psychiatrists and future physicians of the best field. I decided to start this thread because I became impatient, not because I have more clout than anyone else. About a month left before rank lists are due. Good luck to everyone!

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[dochtuir]

Thanks for starting the thread! I have a question to lead-off with:

We've received consistent advice from Deans and faculty (at my own school and at others my friends attend) to contact our first-choice program PD to tell them point-blank, "I'm ranking you first." This appears sound, but some of us wonder if it creates an unanticipated "shadow" effect--namely, that if a program does not hear this explicit statement from you, then they will assume they are not your #1.

Its likely not a significant factor--and I certainly do not want to stimulate unfounded fear--but I'd like to hear others' thoughts. Thanks!

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

PDs may hear “I’m ranking you highly” as “You’re my third favorite program”, but does that really matter? We often get very good resident for whom we are their second or third choice. A PD would be foolish to lower someone on their list because they didn’t indicate they wanted a program more than their program.

On the other side of this coin are the programs who notice that the lower/weaker an applicant is, the more likely they will tell you you’re ranked #1. This isn’t because the best applicants hold their cards close to the vest. It is because if you did a scatter gram of ranks and #1s, the people on the bottom of a list will have fewer superior options.

A PD is checking his e-mail:
“Looks like our number 50 is ranking us first, that is good.. .we will see what happens”
“Looks like our number 3 person is ranking us first…. I’ll believe it when it happens on match day.”

 

[Psych56]

How risky is it for an allopathic US grad from a Midwest non-elite school with solid board scores, research in psych, and no red flags to rank only 5 out of 8 programs interviewed? *I am above average in my passion for psychiatry The 5 I will be ranking in no particular order are IU, UIC, MUSC, Colorado, and Mizzou. I'd rather scramble into a unfilled program than go to the 3 programs I shall not name. How easy is it to scramble into an unfilled psych program? And would I be safe ranking only 5 as listed above?

 

[JohnBender]

PDs may hear “I’m ranking you highly” as “You’re my third favorite program”, but does that really matter? We often get very good resident for whom we are their second or third choice. A PD would be foolish to lower someone on their list because they didn’t indicate they wanted a program more than their program.

On the other side of this coin are the programs who notice that the lower/weaker an applicant is, the more likely they will tell you you’re ranked #1. This isn’t because the best applicants hold their cards close to the vest. It is because if you did a scatter gram of ranks and #1s, the people on the bottom of a list will have fewer superior options.

A PD is checking his e-mail:
“Looks like our number 50 is ranking us first, that is good.. .we will see what happens”
“Looks like our number 3 person is ranking us first…. I’ll believe it when it happens on match day.”

Honestly though, is there any point to telling a PD "I'm ranking your program highly"? Since this is clearly not read as "you're my number one," does it still stand to have any positive impact?

 

[notdeadyet]

I'd rather scramble into a unfilled program than go to the 3 programs I shall not name.

Well, that solves that. Rank the 5.

As to your likelihood of matching, it eyeballs pretty good based on the program's you mention. As to the competitiveness of this year's scramble, it's basically reading tea leaf reading. It's never pretty...


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[HarryMTieboutMD]

How risky is it for an allopathic US grad from a Midwest non-elite school with solid board scores, research in psych, and no red flags to rank only 5 out of 8 programs interviewed? *I am above average in my passion for psychiatry The 5 I will be ranking in no particular order are IU, UIC, MUSC, Colorado, and Mizzou. I'd rather scramble into a unfilled program than go to the 3 programs I shall not name. How easy is it to scramble into an unfilled psych program? And would I be safe ranking only 5 as listed above?

I would be VERY shocked if you you did not match. MUSC might be the most competitive because it has an established department with a lot of money and huge names (Kathleen Brady, Ray Anton, Mark George) and UIC is probably more competitive than it used to be because all of the major Chicago programs are improving and getting more competitive because of location. IU is honestly one of the best kept secrets in psychiatry.

Anyway, as stated above, if you would rather scramble than match at a certain program, then don't rank that program. Keep in mind, however, that there are no guarantees and the scramble process just looks miserable. I really disliked my least favorite program but ranked it anyway because when I thought about it, I did NOT want to risk scrambling. Incidentally, I ended up matching at my #1...

 

[Psych56]

I would be VERY shocked if you you did not match. MUSC might be the most competitive because it has an established department with a lot of money and huge names (Kathleen Brady, Ray Anton, Mark George) and UIC is probably more competitive than it used to be because all of the major Chicago programs are improving and getting more competitive because of location. IU is honestly one of the best kept secrets in psychiatry.

Anyway, as stated above, if you would rather scramble than match at a certain program, then don't rank that program. Keep in mind, however, that there are no guarantees and the scramble process just looks miserable. I really disliked my least favorite program but ranked it anyway because when I thought about it, I did NOT want to risk scrambling. Incidentally, I ended up matching at my #1...

Thank you for your thoughts. The scramble does sound incredibly dicey. I think at this point I just need to relax and believe in myself. If the scramble happens then so be it. It's nice to hear that you'd be very surprised if I didn't match. That helps a lot.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Honestly though, is there any point to telling a PD "I'm ranking your program highly"? Since this is clearly not read as "you're my number one," does it still stand to have any positive impact?

Well, it lets us know that you didn't dislike us...

But it won't influence your rank one way or t'other.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Thank you for your thoughts. The scramble does sound incredibly dicey. I think at this point I just need to relax and believe in myself. If the scramble happens then so be it. It's nice to hear that you'd be very surprised if I didn't match. That helps a lot.

I think that from what I've seen of the scramble/SOAP the past 3-4 years, you should be asking not "would I rather scramble than match here", but "what am I planning to do next year if I don't match?" There have not been many unfilled programs at all--but that still doesn't mean that you should settle for a program that you have zero or negative interest in.

 

[dochtuir]

For those who've made it past residency and may now look back:

How much should being able to put money into a retirement account (and other cost-of-living measures, i.e. average rent, home cost, etc.) as a resident be weighted?

In choosing between relatively equal and strong programs in Boston, NYC, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh, this seems to be a question that becomes more crucial. My sense from current residents in NYC is that you spend all you make while there; maybe slightly less-so in Boston; and in Baltimore/Pittsburgh, residents are able to purchase homes, make meaningful loan repayments, and begin saving money. Thanks!

 

[wannabie]

In choosing between relatively equal and strong programs in Boston, NYC, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh, this seems to be a question that becomes more crucial. My sense from current residents in NYC is that you spend all you make while there; maybe slightly less-so in Boston; and in Baltimore/Pittsburgh, residents are able to purchase homes, make meaningful loan repayments, and begin saving money. Thanks!

Well, it depends how much debt you have and are comfortable with carrying. If you have family, you gotta consider that as well. I roomed with a hopkins ortho resident and he owned the house we lived in, could pay back his debt, and save money. Also, Baltimore's a little underrated in terms of quality of life. Yes, parts of it are dangerous, but it's patchwork and most of the crime is concentrated in specific areas. There are lots of young people, lots of cool bars, good coffeeshops, and decent restaurants. Pittsburgh's even better in that regard. I live fifteen minutes from NYC and am there every other weekend. You probably already know this, but you'll be broke living there, but you'll never run out of things to do. If I had a family, I'd look at Pittsburgh or Baltimore, but since I'm single and young, I'd rather be in NYC even if I'm broke there.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

A program with good moonlighting opportunities in NYC will allow you to save more than a program in Timbuktu without moonlighting (my apologies to any Mali psychiatry residents in advance). Every dollar you pay on your loans in training is like two dollars down the road, but on the other hand, every dollar you don’t get to spend while in training feels twice as painful as it will down the road.

 

[wannabie]

Could I get some input on the following programs? I have my own opinions and biases, but I couldn't find much (or any) information on some of them. I'd be happy to share my certified and final rank list after. Location isn't important, but I disliked Memphis.

St. Elizabeth's DC
Hennepin County
Rosalind Franklin
Howard University
University of Louisville
University of Tennessee, Memphis
Providence Medical Center, Spokane, WA (former UWashington Spokane track, I think)

If you know anything, I'd be very grateful.

 

[conchatumare]

What if you don't hear anything from a particular applicant thats say your #5? Are you going to lower that applicant because you assume they're not going to rank your program "highly"?

PDs may hear “I’m ranking you highly” as “You’re my third favorite program”, but does that really matter? We often get very good resident for whom we are their second or third choice. A PD would be foolish to lower someone on their list because they didn’t indicate they wanted a program more than their program.

On the other side of this coin are the programs who notice that the lower/weaker an applicant is, the more likely they will tell you you’re ranked #1. This isn’t because the best applicants hold their cards close to the vest. It is because if you did a scatter gram of ranks and #1s, the people on the bottom of a list will have fewer superior options.

A PD is checking his e-mail:
“Looks like our number 50 is ranking us first, that is good.. .we will see what happens”
“Looks like our number 3 person is ranking us first…. I’ll believe it when it happens on match day.”

 

[OldPsychDoc]

What if you don't hear anything from a particular applicant thats say your #5? Are you going to lower that applicant because you assume they're not going to rank your program "highly"?

No--if we think they're 5th best, we rank them 5th.
They may not match at their "highly ranked" programs, and if not, they match to us.
(Or they just might be the type that doesn't want to say anything...)

 

[conchatumare]

Thats nice to hear. Honestly, I would prefer to remain silent and not contact any of the programs on my rank list. But after talking to my Dean and other faculty, they make it seem like I have to tell my #1, and then contact the next four with a "highly" interest letter.

I hate playing this game. I'm terrible at writing these types of letters.

No--if we think they're 5th best, we rank them 5th.
They may not match at their "highly ranked" programs, and if not, they match to us.
(Or they just might be the type that doesn't want to say anything...)

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

No communication in either direction means nothing and communication doesn’t change things unless one side or the other doesn’t understand the match. Just put them in the order you want them, anything else may just get you less then you could have gotten.

 

[conchatumare]

The article "Manipulation and the match (2009)" was given to me at one of my interviews and the PD expressed that the only thing that was considered in determining their rank list was the applicants ERAS application + their interview performance. It was nice to hear that but I know many applicants will still go out of their way to express their love for the program.

No communication in either direction means nothing and communication doesn’t change things unless one side or the other doesn’t understand the match. Just put them in the order you want them, anything else may just get you less then you could have gotten.

 

[dochtuir]

Alphabetical list:

Columbia
Cornell
Johns Hopkins
MGH/McLean
Pittsburgh

Interests: Academic psychiatry in tertiary care setting, likely on an inpatient unit; leadership/administrative training; robust psychotherapy exposure; will likely do a fellowship, with addiction, forensics, and psychosomatic being front-runners.

Specific questions:
1. Are there any real/perceived qualitative differences between programs on this list?
2. How would these be arranged: (a) if money were no matter? (b) and if a cost-of-living balance were most important?

 

[slappy]

Alphabetical list:

Columbia
Cornell
Johns Hopkins
MGH/McLean
Pittsburgh

Interests: Academic psychiatry in tertiary care setting, likely on an inpatient unit; leadership/administrative training; robust psychotherapy exposure; will likely do a fellowship, with addiction, forensics, and psychosomatic being front-runners.

Specific questions:
1. Are there any real/perceived qualitative differences between programs on this list?
2. How would these be arranged: (a) if money were no matter? (b) and if a cost-of-living balance were most important?

1. Of course there are. You will likely not notice them as a resident, however (except Hopkins).
2(a). Huh?
2(b). If that's most important you, naturally Pittsburgh>Baltimore>Boston>NYC.

With your interests however, there's only one possible rank list order in my mind: MGH/Columbia/Cornell/WPIC/Hopkins.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I don't mind expressions of appreciation. My residents and coordinators worked hard to prepare the interview day. We pay a lot of attention to building and maintaining a program that is a quality training opportunity. So if you feel good about it, then let us know--it will make us feel good too. But whether you do or don't won't affect your rank position.

The article "Manipulation and the match (2009)" was given to me at one of my interviews and the PD expressed that the only thing that was considered in determining their rank list was the applicants ERAS application + their interview performance. It was nice to hear that but I know many applicants will still go out of their way to express their love for the program.

 

[MedChic]

Hello.....How would one rank Wake Forest, St. Elizabeth's (boston), and UCLA-Kern in relation to each other (not taking into consideration location, just program quality)?

Any input is much appreciated

 

[barzan]

Hello.....How would one rank Wake Forest, St. Elizabeth's (boston), and UCLA-Kern in relation to each other (not taking into consideration location, just program quality)?

Any input is much appreciated

if your talking about St.Elizabeth medical center I think its on probation isn't it?

 

[MedChic]

if your talking about St.Elizabeth medical center I think its on probation isn't it?

yes, it is. I think they were due for a site visit and I don't think there is concern about it shutting down (I might be wrong) but they seem to match their residents to decent fellowships. If a program does shut down I don't think it can happen mid year. I'm ranking all programs; don't want to scramble

 

[GreenBirch]

Having a really hard time between two programs: Cambridge Health Alliance and Longwood.

CHA was warm & fuzzy, love the focus on the underserved, the humanistic approach, great PD who serves as advocate and mentor. But minimal neuro (one of my interests) and lack of tertiary care C/L experience may limit my exposure to the medically complex cases.
Longwood well-balanced, more diverse group, good community psych component, solid group of neuropsych, more likely to churn out someone for academia (for me, I just don't want doors closed because I don't know whether I want to be in academia). But lacked the warm & fuzzy as a larger group, need to find yourself a good mentor, and residents seem overworked.

So gut-wise, I really liked CHA because of its small tight group and its approach... but then Longwood seems to be "a better fit" when looking at an objective list? And the decision gets harder and harder...

 

[Soggun]

Having a really hard time between two programs: Cambridge Health Alliance and Longwood.

CHA was warm & fuzzy, love the focus on the underserved, the humanistic approach, great PD who serves as advocate and mentor. But minimal neuro (one of my interests) and lack of tertiary care C/L experience may limit my exposure to the medically complex cases.
Longwood well-balanced, more diverse group, good community psych component, solid group of neuropsych, more likely to churn out someone for academia (for me, I just don't want doors closed because I don't know whether I want to be in academia). But lacked the warm & fuzzy as a larger group, need to find yourself a good mentor, and residents seem overworked.

So gut-wise, I really liked CHA because of its small tight group and its approach... but then Longwood seems to be "a better fit" when looking at an objective list? And the decision gets harder and harder...

I'm always a proponent of the go with your gut approach, as that's what I did to end up at Longwood and I'm very happy that I made that choice. That being said, I just wanted to comment on a few things about our program just to offer some experiences and reflections I've had after 4 years of being there, in case they are of use to you as you make your list.

I'll start with the disclaimer that I never interviewed at CHA (didn't apply to any other program in Boston), so I know little about their program and didn't see it firsthand. What I know about their program amounts to interactions I've had during our Mass Mental partial hospital program experience during second year and a smattering of other interactions at various Boston psych events. All of those interactions have been very positive, and I think very highly of those I've interacted with there.

Commenting for a moment on my experience at Longwood though, I have to say that I don't feel I was overworked. I think I got a lot of experience that contributed to me feeling comfortable to embark in a career as I approach the end of residency (a non-academic career), but I also had opportunities to engage in hobbies that took several hours per day numerous days per week just about throughout residency. We work for sure, but I personally have not felt overworked and have felt that our workload is both appropriate and very helpful to feeling more confident as a psychiatrist - or at least it was for me.

The other thing I wanted to comment on was on the lack of warm and fuzzy feeling you got, which it seems like you attributed perhaps to us having a larger group. Obviously the warm and fuzzy thing is based on a subjective experience and everyone's is going to be different. As I said before, I also think that the impression you got is very valuable and should probably inform your decision-making. That being said, and again I can only speak from my experience, I've felt that warm and fuzzy feeling despite our comparatively larger group. 15 people is great from the perspective of easing call burdens and such - particularly when people go on leave (maternity, sick, etc.) - but for me it hasn't detracted from any sense of community. We have so many organized events (trivia, retreat, psych cinema, holiday parties, etc) which I think contribute to this, but that's not taking into account all of the other multitude of activities people do together on a very regular basis. So, I guess all that is to say that you should perhaps trust your gut, but also know that at least one person's experience based on 4 years has been that of a strong and embracing community... Actually, that community is one of the main reasons I came here and I still maintain that it is one of our greatest strengths now that I am approaching the end of my time.

So, best of luck in your difficult upcoming decision and I hope that my response was helpful. I'm happy to be of any additional help either here or via PM if there are other things you'd like to discuss a bit more.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

The residents were visibly tired when I interviewed at Longwood - they admitted to working hard and being tired. They were upbeat and informative, but visibly the most tired bunch I met on the interview trail.

 

[myPsychAlt]

If a program does shut down I don't think it can happen mid year. I'm ranking all programs; don't want to scramble

St. Vincent and some Wayne State programs (around 2007ish) would state otherwise... though those were because of other issues, not accreditation.

Back in 2010, I met at least a couple of former St. Vincent residents on the interview trail. Having to suddenly pack up your life and move would suck, but they were both at good programs so it's not like your medical career would end up in permanent limbo.

 

[barzan]

St. Vincent and some Wayne State programs (around 2007ish) would state otherwise... though those were because of other issues, not accreditation.

Back in 2010, I met at least a couple of former St. Vincent residents on the interview trail. Having to suddenly pack up your life and move would suck, but they were both at good programs so it's not like your medical career would end up in permanent limbo.

So they had to go through the process of applying and interview again?

 

[myPsychAlt]

From what I was told, the process was pretty quick and informal. Maybe @OldPsychDoc can correct or confirm this, but apparently residents from a closed program come funded so programs are able to take them on as extra residents beyond their normal cap. IIRC, the displaced residents I met were at Pitt/WPIC, and Jefferson, so good programs to fall into.

 

[NickNaylor]

Thanks for starting the thread! I have a question to lead-off with:

We've received consistent advice from Deans and faculty (at my own school and at others my friends attend) to contact our first-choice program PD to tell them point-blank, "I'm ranking you first." This appears sound, but some of us wonder if it creates an unanticipated "shadow" effect--namely, that if a program does not hear this explicit statement from you, then they will assume they are not your #1.

Its likely not a significant factor--and I certainly do not want to stimulate unfounded fear--but I'd like to hear others' thoughts. Thanks!

We were advised by our deans that at most places disclosing that kind of thing won't make much of a difference one way or another. They did say, though, that if you want to do this, you should do so ASAP as many programs more or less finalize their lists pretty early. Our dean said that at my institution, for example, all programs but one had their rank lists complete by the end of January. We were advised that at best any impact will be fairly minimal; however, that "fairly minimal" will slide down to "effectively zero" over the next couple of weeks.

FWIW, I did go ahead and send my first choice a note letting them know that I would rank them first. I didn't see any downside, so whether there's an upside or not was somewhat irrelevant to me. I'd like to think that I'm doing my part to try and create an open and "game-free" culture, naive though that may be.

 

[BZEE]

Hi everybody, thanks for all the wisdom! I am working on my ROL and I am trying to sort out these programs:
University of Michigan
UTSW
UT Austin
U of AZ (Main campus or South campus - I interviewed at both)

Factors that are important to me are solid training, diversity of experience, prestige, lifestyle, flexibility in scheduling prior to 4th year (I may fast-track to child fellowship) and a humane culture. I am concerned about places that may be too service-heavy. I also am unsure how much to weigh the prestige factor (I am not planning on an academic career in all likelihood, but I don't want to shut that door completely either). I would be very grateful for any thoughts or advice, either on board or in private message if you are more comfortable.

To contribute something to the board, I will share my general impressions of each program:

- U of Michigan: Solid program overall. Good ranking and prestige factor. Stable program, collegial environment. Program seems C/L heavy and inpatient heavy, which are negatives for me. Residents seem happy overall, although their service requirements are probably mid-range for psych programs. Ann Arbor is a great and affordable city with plenty to do and lots of local access to nature. 4 weeks of vacation, plus residents have a union. Unfortunately there is not much outpatient exposure or elective time until 3rd year.

- UTSW: Seems similar to Michigan in terms of stability and prestige factor. More emphasis on community psych, some elective time in intern year. I have heard rumors that residents there are very busy and service requirements are at the higher end. Only a few residents actually came to dinner/lunch on interview day, which seemed odd for such a large program. The residents I did meet seemed down-to-earth and did not complain of being overworked or look super tired. Facilities were nice, 2 new hospitals in system.

- UT Austin: (Formerly associated with UTSW, but now affiliated with UT Austin as Dell Medical School will open there in 2016. For the moment it is a small program based out of a Catholic health system. Austin seems like a great city. Residents were laid-back, seemed close-knit and were friendly. Faculty seemed good, but pretty small number of them. They felt that they had a very good balance with service requirements and didactics, as well as work-life balance.

-U Arizona - Tucson (South and main campuses): This seems like an up and coming program. Good lifestyle balance, Tucson is a cool city and desert is beautiful. Training seems solid, although faculty seems small. Residents are all very friendly and seem to be a close-knit group. South campus program seems forensic-heavy. Main campus is VA heavy.

 

[MedChic]

Is anybody risking NOT ranking certain programs. I'm torn between ranking only the ones I liked (6-8) vs. all of them (>10). How likely is it to go beyond #8?

 

[psychiatrist88]

In my rank list I know where I am going to rank 7 of the programs, but there 2 more I need help to rank. Between Washington University in St. Louis and University of Virginia, which of the two should I rank higher? I am ambivalent about the location of the two, but I was wondering which of the two were more chill in terms of hours and which offers something the other one doesn't.

 

[barzan]

I have a friend that matched into his 7th choice.

Is anybody risking NOT ranking certain programs. I'm torn between ranking only the ones I liked (6-8) vs. all of them (>10). How likely is it to go beyond #8?

 

[GreenBirch]

I'm always a proponent of the go with your gut approach, as that's what I did to end up at Longwood and I'm very happy that I made that choice.

Thanks for your input, Soggun. I was thinking of "going with my gut too" until I typed up an email to CHA "you are my #1" and could not send it... and then I realized that maybe my gut was actually telling me something else... so now I'm suddenly reversing the two. From what you know (or may not know), does Longwood care about the #1 emails?

One other question about Longwood--who do you look to as your mentor and advocate? Do you feel like the PDs/aPDs play that role or is it someone else that you feel like you gravitated towards after meeting/working with several people?

 

[GreenBirch]

I have a friend that matched into his 7th choice.

Was that in Psych?

 

[barzan]

To be accurate it was in IM.

Was that in Psych?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I’m sure this data exists, but my gut feeling is that most of the time applicants match very high on their list or not at all. It would be rare in psychiatry to not get in the first half a dozen programs and then squeak in #7. I’ll bet it looks something like this:

#1 60%
#2 30%
#3 5%
#4 2.5%
#5 1.25%
#6 0.625%
#7 0.3125%

 

[slappy]

I’ll bet it looks something like this:

#1 60%
#2 30%
#3 5%
#4 2.5%
#5 1.25%
#6 0.625%
#7 0.3125%

If you talk to residents however, it is usually:

#1 100%
#2-9 0%

 

[barzan]

Would you think those percentages would apply to IMG's?

I’m sure this data exists, but my gut feeling is that most of the time applicants match very high on their list or not at all. It would be rare in psychiatry to not get in the first half a dozen programs and then squeak in #7. I’ll bet it looks something like this:

#1 60%
#2 30%
#3 5%
#4 2.5%
#5 1.25%
#6 0.625%
#7 0.3125%

 

[Abby_Normal]

Is anybody risking NOT ranking certain programs. I'm torn between ranking only the ones I liked (6-8) vs. all of them (>10). How likely is it to go beyond #8?

It depends upon which you decide is worse: finding yourself at the program in question or finding yourself in the SOAP.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

IMGs may have a little less steep decline, but I would guess it would be more similar than different. Programs don’t bother to interview people they will not rank. If you are an IMG with a good number of interviews you will likely be fine. If you are in trouble you will know it when you don’t get interviews.

 

[NickNaylor]

Hi everybody, thanks for all the wisdom! I am working on my ROL and I am trying to sort out these programs:
University of Michigan
UTSW
UT Austin
U of AZ (Main campus or South campus - I interviewed at both)

Factors that are important to me are solid training, diversity of experience, prestige, lifestyle, flexibility in scheduling prior to 4th year (I may fast-track to child fellowship) and a humane culture. I am concerned about places that may be too service-heavy. I also am unsure how much to weigh the prestige factor (I am not planning on an academic career in all likelihood, but I don't want to shut that door completely either). I would be very grateful for any thoughts or advice, either on board or in private message if you are more comfortable.

To contribute something to the board, I will share my general impressions of each program:

- U of Michigan: Solid program overall. Good ranking and prestige factor. Stable program, collegial environment. Program seems C/L heavy and inpatient heavy, which are negatives for me. Residents seem happy overall, although their service requirements are probably mid-range for psych programs. Ann Arbor is a great and affordable city with plenty to do and lots of local access to nature. 4 weeks of vacation, plus residents have a union. Unfortunately there is not much outpatient exposure or elective time until 3rd year.

- UTSW: Seems similar to Michigan in terms of stability and prestige factor. More emphasis on community psych, some elective time in intern year. I have heard rumors that residents there are very busy and service requirements are at the higher end. Only a few residents actually came to dinner/lunch on interview day, which seemed odd for such a large program. The residents I did meet seemed down-to-earth and did not complain of being overworked or look super tired. Facilities were nice, 2 new hospitals in system.

- UT Austin: (Formerly associated with UTSW, but now affiliated with UT Austin as Dell Medical School will open there in 2016. For the moment it is a small program based out of a Catholic health system. Austin seems like a great city. Residents were laid-back, seemed close-knit and were friendly. Faculty seemed good, but pretty small number of them. They felt that they had a very good balance with service requirements and didactics, as well as work-life balance.

-U Arizona - Tucson (South and main campuses): This seems like an up and coming program. Good lifestyle balance, Tucson is a cool city and desert is beautiful. Training seems solid, although faculty seems small. Residents are all very friendly and seem to be a close-knit group. South campus program seems forensic-heavy. Main campus is VA heavy.

I went to both Michigan and UTSW, and FWIW I will be ranking UTSW more highly than Michigan. Several of my classmates interviewed there - one of whom is from the area and, prior to the interview, wanted very badly to end up there - and all of us agreed that the experience was fairly "meh." The faculty and staff were nice, I personally think Ann Arbor is a great town, and obviously it's a powerhouse hospital system for the area. I dunno, I just wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be going into the interview. That said, there was nothing wrong with the program from my perspective.

 

[MedChic]

It depends upon which you decide is worse: finding yourself at the program in question or finding yourself in the SOAP.

This is true. Worst case scenario would be to wind up in the SOAP with all the spots filled (including the program's in question.) So by that logic, it's probably better just to rank them all.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

This is true. Worst case scenario would be to wind up in the SOAP with all the spots filled (including the program's in question.) So by that logic, it's probably better just to rank them all.

If I were a betting man, and someone wanted to do an "Over/Under" on number of unfilled slots, I think I'd take the "Under" every time.
The SOAP has been almost irrelevant in psychiatry the past 4 years.

 

[slappy]

I went to both Michigan and UTSW, and FWIW I will be ranking UTSW more highly than Michigan. Several of my classmates interviewed there - one of whom is from the area and, prior to the interview, wanted very badly to end up there - and all of us agreed that the experience was fairly "meh." The faculty and staff were nice, I personally think Ann Arbor is a great town, and obviously it's a powerhouse hospital system for the area. I dunno, I just wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be going into the interview. That said, there was nothing wrong with the program from my perspective.

I would disagree. UMich is one of the best programs on the midwest, along with Northwestern, UIC and MCW. While UTSW is a very good program with an excellent program director, it's not as good as UMich in most aspects (except the weather?).

 

[NickNaylor]

I would disagree. UMich is one of the best programs on the midwest, along with Northwestern, UIC and MCW. While UTSW is a very good program with an excellent program director, it's not as good as UMich in most aspects (except the weather?).

Why do you think that? I'm just curious since perhaps I'm missing something or didn't see something on the interview day.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

In my rank list I know where I am going to rank 7 of the programs, but there 2 more I need help to rank. Between Washington University in St. Louis and University of Virginia, which of the two should I rank higher? I am ambivalent about the location of the two, but I was wondering which of the two were more chill in terms of hours and which offers something the other one doesn't.

Wash U: One of the most established and storied psychiatry departments in the country. The department was among the first to champion the medical model of psychiatric disease at a time when academic psychiatry was dominated by analysts, and from the tradition of the department arose DSM 3. The training is on the intensive side (moreso than most places) but not overwhelming to the point of diminishing returns. Interns are treated as medicine residents when rotating on the medicine service (all inpatient at Barnes Jewish). With the pitfalls of DSM V, the department is now focusing on teaching psychiatry in terms of clinical neuroscience. Both the chair and the PD are basic scientists, and the chair and vice chair of education are prolific writers and very well respected in the realm of biological psychiatry. The program has a reputation for being dismissive of therapy, but this is not true. Residents receive extensive therapy training, particularly in the 3rd year. The department has an impressive list of faculty with a lot of NIH grant funding. Just google "Robert Cloninger". The department is particularly known for psychiatric epidemiology but has a lot of important research in all of the basic and clinical sciences.