Last edited:
Official 2016-2017 Nephrology Fellowship Application Cycle
- Thread starter gutonc
- Start date
point well taken. Don't think that i will be living the life as a nephrologist. However everything is relative in life. I'm comparing nephrology to hospitalist and i definitely believe the latter is at least not for me. Now if anyone here has a chance to go into cards, GI, heme onc or other better fellowship, pls let me be the first one to encourage you to do so. However if you are like me and the choice for you is between int med and nephrology that you have to make a choice but like i said that is my personal choice, not imposing it on anyone else.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2004
- Messages
- 6,007
- Reaction score
- 6,711
i agree..that's probably overboard for almost any fellowship...
you can probably narrow things down by deciding clinical vs research...academic vs pp...
Yes, agree - very unprofessional to project one's own unhappiness on rest of us eager and earnest hopefuls for a nephrology spot. I sympathize with nephro007 and other naysayers if their own fellowship experiences were bad, but enough is enough! I've done a lot of research into the future job market (both academic and private) and know what Im getting into! These few bad apples are poisoning the field!
Good luck
Nope... just someone who spent way too many years as a hospitalist
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2014
- Messages
- 514
- Reaction score
- 253
this s brilliant
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
Agreed. Stop blaming academicians for lack of personal success. They are some of the finest clinicians and they have nothing do with job market. In fact most of the PDs work hard to help their fellows get best possible jobs. In the end, if you can't find a job it is very wrong to point fingers at your attendings.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
Better job is a relative term. If your goal is to own Porsche and yacht, sure continue your hospitalist gig. However, if you are willing to sacrifice your comfort and lifestyle for your passion to study renal diseases, you should join nephrology. If all the internal medicine residents chose to shun renal fellowship, who will take care of thousands of patients sick with kidney issues? Most of the people who join nephrology these days are the ones who have decided to give priority to community's need over their own personal comforts. It is okay for unhappy/ unemployed nephrology graduates to disclose the whole picture but it is wrong for them to dissuade others from following their hearts. I completely respect courage and faith shown by new applicants like "daleagent" and "HelpPleaseMd", they are crusaders.
Last edited:
Can we re-direct this forum to its original purpose of informing about the programs in Nephrology?
I have something to share about a program I recently visited in Univ of Louisville in Kentucky. First of all they don't have any fellow at all!!!
A few blogs ago , they had described this place as malignant program !! Well ... I had to live it by myself. They have a good interventional program there but ......
The first attending that interview me , and probably the only one that read my application , was thankful of my visit. But after that , the attendings were texting during the interview with out looking at me.
The program director ... who has been there only for 3 years , and only one year w fellows , as they have not had any fellows for last 2 years ...she was very condescending . I asked her a few questions about the distribution of the rotations but the numbers of the months spent didn't add up. So I told her I didn't understand and she literally grabbed a piece of paper and a pen and wrote on it and double lined certain things and told me with a very ugly tone "do you know get it ???"
She belittle me and I turned down my head and said to her that I was sorry for asking her a question.
She later realized that she totally lost it there!!
Im not even a fellow , just an applicant and I was about to cry. Can't imagine how she treats the fellows and now I see why they don't have anybody . Looking at the blogs I think they are correct. Is malignant.
Last guy said " well I didn't even read your CV", and I said "it doesn't surprise me , nobody did, makes me feel special"
I just want to say something for those who interviewed there... careful.
I proved what they said in the blogged 2 years ago now that I interviewed there.
And Program directors open your eyes !! Allowing behaviors like that in interviews where the attending spends 10 minutes texting is the worst marketing for your program and not even to talk about the explosive behaviors!!!
I have something to share about a program I recently visited in Univ of Louisville in Kentucky. First of all they don't have any fellow at all!!!
A few blogs ago , they had described this place as malignant program !! Well ... I had to live it by myself. They have a good interventional program there but ......
The first attending that interview me , and probably the only one that read my application , was thankful of my visit. But after that , the attendings were texting during the interview with out looking at me.
The program director ... who has been there only for 3 years , and only one year w fellows , as they have not had any fellows for last 2 years ...she was very condescending . I asked her a few questions about the distribution of the rotations but the numbers of the months spent didn't add up. So I told her I didn't understand and she literally grabbed a piece of paper and a pen and wrote on it and double lined certain things and told me with a very ugly tone "do you know get it ???"
She belittle me and I turned down my head and said to her that I was sorry for asking her a question.
She later realized that she totally lost it there!!
Im not even a fellow , just an applicant and I was about to cry. Can't imagine how she treats the fellows and now I see why they don't have anybody . Looking at the blogs I think they are correct. Is malignant.
Last guy said " well I didn't even read your CV", and I said "it doesn't surprise me , nobody did, makes me feel special"
I just want to say something for those who interviewed there... careful.
I proved what they said in the blogged 2 years ago now that I interviewed there.
And Program directors open your eyes !! Allowing behaviors like that in interviews where the attending spends 10 minutes texting is the worst marketing for your program and not even to talk about the explosive behaviors!!!
You guys need to be very careful when you interview with programs advertising themselves as "Interventional" . the word interventional is just used to troll the applicants nothing more as most of those programs will never teach any fellow any interventional procedure during the fellowship. many of them would rather bring attendings from other hospitals to teach them for money rather than teaching their own fellows as those program see fellows as just slaves came to the program to cover the service and night calls . and the same persons who attract you by interventional capabilities during the interview ,believe or not they will tell you after joining the program that interventional is not part of ACGME requirements for nephrology training . it has happened to many fellows I know did their fellowship in Louisville , St Louis and Alabama .
Last edited:
I want to stay in Texas for a family reason. Either in Dallas or Houston . What do u think about the following programs : Baylor Houston, UT Houston, UT southwestern and Baylor Dallas?
Would u rank Baylor Houston first because of its academic reputation? Coz I feel at the end all fellowship programs will train u enough to become competent nephrologist.
What was the main factor when u ranked the programs?its academic reputation, how friendly/approachable are the attendings or other factors?
Thanks
Would u rank Baylor Houston first because of its academic reputation? Coz I feel at the end all fellowship programs will train u enough to become competent nephrologist.
What was the main factor when u ranked the programs?its academic reputation, how friendly/approachable are the attendings or other factors?
Thanks
I think for academic reputation, UT Southwestern > Baylor Houston > UT Houston > Baylor Dallas; but I don't know the friendliness of all these programs, but seems like they're all good options!
Hello Friends,
I am sure that many of you are wondering whether you are doing the right thing by choosing Nephrology. I can assure you that you will not regret it if this is what you love. I went back to do the fellowship in Nephrology after 13 years in practice. Finished this year, took my boards today. Feel satisfied. I had four job offers and have taken the one that I liked best. Glad that I did it. Would do it again if I had a choice.
It is a buyers market, go into the best programs. Do your best. It will be a lot of fun and fulfilling.
I am sure that many of you are wondering whether you are doing the right thing by choosing Nephrology. I can assure you that you will not regret it if this is what you love. I went back to do the fellowship in Nephrology after 13 years in practice. Finished this year, took my boards today. Feel satisfied. I had four job offers and have taken the one that I liked best. Glad that I did it. Would do it again if I had a choice.
It is a buyers market, go into the best programs. Do your best. It will be a lot of fun and fulfilling.
Attached below link to the most recent ASN workforce report for nephrology for 2016 just released few days ago . per the report it says :
"In 2016, 52.3% of fellows completing an adult nephrology fellowship who had searched for a job indicated it was difficult to find a satisfactory position; this was less than in 2015 and 2014 (60.3% and 56.3%, respectively.) US medical and osteopathic graduates (USMGs) continue to have significantly less difficulty than IMGs (26.9% vs. 68.8% in 2016) (Exhibit 5)."
The report also showed that the average salary for nephrologist is 180K ( please notice for the 180K you will need to work like a dog ) .
there are some jobs but number are very limited. locations are bad , working hours a too much and pay is less than anybody in medicine .
https://www.asn-online.org/educatio...ology_Workforce_Study_Report_2016_Summary.pdf
"In 2016, 52.3% of fellows completing an adult nephrology fellowship who had searched for a job indicated it was difficult to find a satisfactory position; this was less than in 2015 and 2014 (60.3% and 56.3%, respectively.) US medical and osteopathic graduates (USMGs) continue to have significantly less difficulty than IMGs (26.9% vs. 68.8% in 2016) (Exhibit 5)."
The report also showed that the average salary for nephrologist is 180K ( please notice for the 180K you will need to work like a dog ) .
there are some jobs but number are very limited. locations are bad , working hours a too much and pay is less than anybody in medicine .
https://www.asn-online.org/educatio...ology_Workforce_Study_Report_2016_Summary.pdf
Hi,
Did you receive any feedback from the Cleveland clinic program director? Did he email you or call you like all other PDs do?
Good luck in the match
Hi,
Did you get any feed back for the program director at Cleveland Clinic? Did he email or call you after the IV? Most of The PDs do that after the IV I think.
Thanks and good luck in the match
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2014
- Messages
- 257
- Reaction score
- 231
This is probably the most important thing one can say to those who went unmatched in other fields.
Renal has become a joke. Fellowship positions need to be slashed if this speciality is to be saved.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Any idea which programs did not fill?
Last edited:
No worries, NRMP posted them.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2014
- Messages
- 436
- Reaction score
- 290
Nephrology still has about 170 unfilled positions. My friend who went unmatched into cardiology got 2 or 3 cold calls calls from nephrology fellowships condoling that he could not get into cardiology and then offering him a nephrology position in their program . Complete desperation on part of programs. At some point they will start paying recruiters to snag them candidates.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2014
- Messages
- 436
- Reaction score
- 290
Most programs did not fill. I looked yesterday on NRMP and about 50- 60% of programs still have a spot open. If you were on NRMP and unmatched in any other speciality you would probably have been called by one of the fellowship programs so far . In my state there are 7 fellowship spots between 2 programs and all of them are still unmatched.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2014
- Messages
- 514
- Reaction score
- 253
a friend of mine from midwest got a call from a reputed nephro program on east coast asking if he wants to do nephro. Despite my advice, he went ahead and took the offer. I feel disgusted by the nephro programs trying this strategy. Of course when some big name program calls u with a spot in hand, u get tempted. but the mind plays games in these situations - feeling depressed due to inability to match in a preferred specialty and the joy that comes from an offer to do fellowship in a big place.
If you like nephro, go ahead with the offer. But just a glance in this forum prior to accepting would help to know the real deal of nephro, the toughest is gonna be 2 years later when you search for jobs. Noone in this forum so far has given positive outlook about nephro jobs. its not about salary but at least a nephro job to justify the two year grind
If you like nephro, go ahead with the offer. But just a glance in this forum prior to accepting would help to know the real deal of nephro, the toughest is gonna be 2 years later when you search for jobs. Noone in this forum so far has given positive outlook about nephro jobs. its not about salary but at least a nephro job to justify the two year grind
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2014
- Messages
- 514
- Reaction score
- 253
how are the nephrology programs getting contact info of unmatched applicants? Any idea
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2014
- Messages
- 436
- Reaction score
- 290
I am not in a program so I don't know for sure. But I am speculating that just like unmatched candidates on Match day get a list of unmatched positions for scramble similarly programs get a list of unmatched candidates in all specialties from NRMP. The person I knew who didn't match in cardiology got a call from the chief fellow of a nephrology fellowship program and from another program secretary in nephrology. He also got a call from an ID fellowship. All these places knew he had applied to and not matched in cardiology at their hospital.
I don't see any other way a nephrology or ID program would know that a candidate was unmatched.
I don't see any other way a nephrology or ID program would know that a candidate was unmatched.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
If you quit, you may be violating match contract. Consult a lawyer before you make haste decisions. In my opinion, it is best is to finish the fellowship. If you have any doubts on future of nephrology, please talk to faculty at your future program who will guide you and dissipate your fears. Most fellows have similar fears and doubts. Thanks to my mentors/faculty, I was able to finally find a nephrology job in a urban area.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
I can assure you most of the university programs are filled up now. There is an increased interest from hospitalists and unmatched PCCM fellows given overlap between these disciplines. Faculty are actively mentoring young hospitalists, who have expressed their desire to become nephrologists.
There are candidates who have more than 4 job offers. Please refer to prior post by 11910, who was a former hospitalist and transitioned to being a happy nephrologist.
"Hello Friends,
I am sure that many of you are wondering whether you are doing the right thing by choosing Nephrology. I can assure you that you will not regret it if this is what you love. I went back to do the fellowship in Nephrology after 13 years in practice. Finished this year, took my boards today. Feel satisfied. I had four job offers and have taken the one that I liked best. Glad that I did it. Would do it again if I had a choice.
It is a buyers market, go into the best programs. Do your best. It will be a lot of fun and fulfilling.
11910, Nov 9, 2016Report
#219Like+ QuoteRep"
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
I believe there is no plan to decrease fellowship slots at this time due to increased prevalence of CKD and ESRD patients. Even though incidence is leveling off, CKD/ ESRD patients' survival has improved, increasing prevalence. It is anticipated nephrology job market will continue to improve as seen in last 12 months. To avoid shortage of workforce, it is imperative to maintain current positions.
Last edited:
nephrology jobs. - what kind of buyers market is this where you are paid less than hospitalist and given hopes that pay will get better once you become a partner in 2-3 or how many yrs or may be never
On one hand avg starting salary of nephrologist still remains same anywhere from 150 k to 180 k ( from my experience ), whereas starting pay for hospitalist is increasing every yr (look at various hospitalist job sites)
At the same time, new changes in payment system including MACRA will put a dent nephrology pay.
Reality is that in private practice nephrologists are stretching themselves to see more pts and maintain their salary and its not gonna get better in future.
On one hand avg starting salary of nephrologist still remains same anywhere from 150 k to 180 k ( from my experience ), whereas starting pay for hospitalist is increasing every yr (look at various hospitalist job sites)
At the same time, new changes in payment system including MACRA will put a dent nephrology pay.
Reality is that in private practice nephrologists are stretching themselves to see more pts and maintain their salary and its not gonna get better in future.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
The figure for starting salary is correct: Jobs in urban area: 130-160 K, Jobs in rural area 160-190 K.
No one pursues Nephrology for better paying job or lifestyle. If that is your primary goal, then it is better to work as hospitalist and make 200K+ by working 12-14 shifts a month. In my opinion, most people join Nephrology fellowship because they want to stay in academics and do groundbreaking renal research or they want to see renal patients in private setting and make difference in their lives.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2014
- Messages
- 257
- Reaction score
- 231
CRNAs even APNs can earn that, without ever taking call or doing weekends
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
I am currently in my second year of nephrology Fellowship and bit disappointed after my job interviews. Yes, Job situation is better than 2012-2013, but the amount of work to be done with a salary between 180-200 max is ginormous. Most places want 2 weekends to be covered (obviously after a 5 day work M-F). Job description with some employers i interviewed looks like i will have to see 15-20 inpatients and 7-18 outpatients Plus dialysis rounds (dialysis units) in certain days (unsure how many Pts) every day. When i interviewed as hospitalist it felt like a red carpet welcome, but some Neph employers made me feel like they are doing a favor by giving me a job. Most of them will not give a partnership until after year 2 or 3 or even 4. You will be employed for 2-3 years and after that there is no guarantee for partnership. They say if both parties mutually agree they will give partnership, which means that they can say goodbye to you after making you slog for 2-3 years and then again with another job you have to start from scratch. Hospital employed nephrology positions pay better with upto 300K salary but the amount of work is worse than what i have listed above including placing lines in night. Some fellowship programs are starting to train candidates who have no residency in US ( due to shortage of fellows) and some have plans to start fellowship where a week of hospitalist rounding is done so candidates don't suffer financially. With this said, there are going to be more nephrologists (Less demand and more supply is already an big issue). I felt like there are more jobs advertised, but when i call most of them are solo practitioners listing their job and they can't find anybody for years as people have joined and left to become hospitalists. When i went to ASN to interview with some large private employers, i was startled to see 20-30 graduates been interviewed for 2 positions. Joining with a solo practitioner is usually a disaster unless its your own family, so most candidates go for large private groups who have 30-100 physicians in 1-2 states. I don't want to sound kind of pessimistic here but there are certain advantages to do this fellowship. My knowledge of acid/base/ckd and even internal medicine has increased by many folds and am very happy how much i learned. But when it comes to the realities of finding a job am little disappointed. I feel doing academic nephrology is not a bad deal as you are on consult service only 3-6 months of year depending on the location and rest of year is research/CKD clinic which helps with a good lifestyle if you are ok with a paycut ( awesome option for e.g. Physician couples). Do not compare yourself with Hospitalist salaries who work for 6 months of year and base pay is around 250-280K (increased in last 3 years) with most employers+RVU=300-350K and more income if you take extra shifts on week off time. I will keep here everybody updated and i am kind of leaning back to becoming a hospitalist unless i find a reasonable job which i haven't so far. Well there a tons of nephrologists working as hospitalist anyways and i will be one of them. Inspite of all this, i don't regret doing fellowship as am a better physician now. Thanks for reading my post.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
1. If you are getting paid 200K in private practice, then obviously you will be expected to work hard and cover all the clinical domains of nephrology - inpatient, clinic, and dialysis units. Why does that come as a surprise to you? You can't run a successful dialysis unit unless you build your practice by seeing CKD patients in the clinic and AKI patients inpatient.
2. Not all the solo practitioners/ small practices have nefarious intentions. They would actually want you to be partner after a run in period of 2 to 3 years. Offering partnership makes you vested in their practice. Each job should be evaluated on a case by case basis rather than generalization that "all solo practitioners are there to exploit you."
3. Again, nephrology is not for the folks who want to live a cush life. You shouldn't expect to join nephrology with the intention of working M-F, 9 AM - 4 PM. You will be expected to work hard, but at the same time rewarded handsomely in the long run.
4. Academic jobs are equally rigorous. Either you work as clinician which can be equally busy as doing private practice, or you work as researcher where you would be expected to work hard and bring external funding through grants. There are no jobs where you do "some" clinical work and sit around idle for rest of the time. With declining fellow applicants, clinical workload in academics may actually increase in future.
5. I think key issue is that many young hospitalists join nephrology fellowship with the intention of making equally good money by doing less work or just getting that "extra" degree/ credentials - specially in case of FMGs, just in case they get burnt-out with hospitalist work. These folks have no clear vision or goals. They end up with disappointment and keep complaining.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2013
- Messages
- 908
- Reaction score
- 809
Brutal. I think 1 person in the last 5 years in my "top tier" residency went into nephrology.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 10
Nothing is brutal. Don't push the panic button. Match doesn't give an accurate estimate of interest in nephrology. You also need to take scramble or post-match recruitment into consideration.
