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Applying in the Fall (August)
1. All Schools
2. 2.97/3.15
3. 26 MCAT
4. ~60 hours shadowing
5.~ 30 hours DO Shadowing
6.~100 hours volunteering in ER/Hospital
7. 1.5 years non-science research, extensive extracurricular activities
I'm a little bit afraid of my science gpa. Will this keep me out of most schools or hurt me chances? I plan on applying as early as possible.

My stats were extremely similar to yours with just more shadowing hours for both podiatrist and non podiatrist, I got in to the top school of my choice and only applied to three others for which I had interview invitations. I think you will definitely get interviews and more then likely acceptance depending obviously on how your interview goes and what not :)

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Applying in August (Chicago Res.)
1.
All 9
2. 3.55/3.60
3. 26 (13 PS, 8 BS, 5 VR)
4. Shadowing this summer!
5. No clinical experience, but I am shadowing an MD/observing a surgery all next week (30hrs)
6. Rush Hospital Chicago 150hrs and counting
7. 2 years of Research for chemistry department - 1 publication

Will I have a problem getting into any of the schools? Or am I even over qualified enough to apply DO?
I was told by my verbal score will set me back to the point where I might not get accepted at all. True?
Thank you!


You will be totally fine. Just get some good shadow experience under you belt (at least 20hrs looks pretty good, but try to shadow a bunch of different podiatrist if you can so you can get a good range of perspectives--they like to see well-rounded insight to the field. Plus it's good for you too!). Based on your stats, you will totally get in. Not even a doubt in my mind.

If you really are interested in DO school, you'd probably have to up your MCAT a bit more--that 5 verbal sticks out. But for pod school, you will totally get in without question once all your other requirements are met. Just shadow and see how you like it. Go for whichever one will make you happiest! :)
 
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Thank you!
My pre-med advisor at my school has a reputation for being very negative and told me that I would have 0% chance at DO (which may be true) and also little chance for Pod school specifically because of my verbal score. She said the cutoff for most schools is a 6. True?

Do your own research. Some advisors are great, some suck. You will be fine if you applied to pod school. Just know why you got that low of a score and be able to explain it in an interview. But you'll be fine. Get some shadowing in and make sure pod is what you really want to do. Other than that good luck.
 
Hey does anyone know about being on the alternate list and how many people actually get an acceptance from the list? I am on the alternate list at DMU. I was a late applicant my stats are:
cGPA/sGPA: 3.3/3.3
MCAT Score: 22 .. 8/6/8 (VR,PS,BS)
Podiatry Experience: 50hrs podiatry experience
Non-Podiatry Shadowing/Clinical Experience (If Applicable);
Approx. 14000 hrs as a Paramedic (Paid) and various other hospital shadowing etc.
 
Just received my mcat scores 2 weeks ago, and I am wondering if i even have a shot at any podiatry school
Cumulative: 2.9 GPA
Science / Post Bacc: 3.6 (A's in all Chem's + Biochem)
Shadowing: Yes
MCAT: 21 (PS-8, V-5, BS-8)

Applied in Feb, but mcat scores were just released to AACPM

Im like borderline with the stats I read in the AACPM PDF file...

What you guys think in terms of chances?
I doubt it at this point, your post-bacc will help but your MCAT score is pretty low, especially verbal. Temple/Scholl/NYCPM have large class sizes, but they are likely to just pull people off the waitlist at this point. But I don't know anything for sure so there's always a chance.
 
Schools you are applying to: all 9
2. cGPA/sGPA: 2.99 overall
3. MCAT Score: 21
4. Podiatry Experience:
shadowed 2 podiatrists , about 30 hours
5. Non-Podiatry Shadowing/Clinical Experience (If Applicable);
Working as medical technician and receptionist full time, about 800 hours so far.
 
What is your sci GPA?

If it is below 2.75 I would suggest applying to schools with a large class size. You'll save some money.
 
Thank you!
My pre-med advisor at my school has a reputation for being very negative and told me that I would have 0% chance at DO (which may be true) and also little chance for Pod school specifically because of my verbal score. She said the cutoff for most schools is a 6. True?

Your verbal score is low but it doesn't mean you won't get in. It's not just about the numbers. If it is, the schools wouldn't go through the trouble to interview applicants, they would just send you the acceptance or rejection letter and be done. I think you have a great shot at all the schools if you apply early. You may even get some scholarships with the GPA you have. Don't let your pre-med advisor psych you out. You will do just fine as long as you apply early. Best of luck to you.
 
Contemplating applying next cycle along with DO.

POD gpa is different than my aacomas, obviously
cgpa: 3.1
sgpa: 2.9
MCAT: 30
post-bacc gpa: 3.92
have above average volunteering, normal pod shadowing and a pod LOR.

Only considering: DMU, Temple, Scholl, and maybe NYCPM.
 
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Contemplating applying next cycle along with DO.

POD gpa is different than my aacomas, obviously
cgpa: 3.1
sgpa: 2.9
MCAT: 30
post-bacc gpa: 3.92
have above average volunteering, normal pod shadowing and a pod LOR.

Only considering: DMU, Temple, Scholl, and maybe NYCPM.
In my opinion you would be completely fine getting into all those schools, and if you applied early enough you would be eligible for some scholarship money. Goodluck!
 
3.47 cumulative gpa
3.7 sgpa
Haven't taken mcat yet
75 hours with podiatrist
100 hours volunteering
Plan on applying to DMU kent, AZPOD, and Samuel Merritt
 
3.47 cumulative gpa
3.7 sgpa
Haven't taken mcat yet
75 hours with podiatrist
100 hours volunteering
Plan on applying to DMU kent, AZPOD, and Samuel Merritt
As long as you don't bomb the MCAT you should be good at all of those schools, especially if you apply early in the cycle.
 
I'm currently studying for the MCAT and will be taking it early August. If all goes well, I plan on applying to all 9 schools by the end of September.

Saying without the MCAT the applying to all 9 schools is odd with those grades in my personal opinion. Applying to all 9 schools will cost you $440.
Just saying that you should at least cross off Des Moines & Midwestern AZ off that list and save the $70 and a rejection letter....unless you are going to randomly get a high 20s on your MCAT. Just some constructive criticism is that you may get interview offers from all these places, but you should think about a top 4 (I would say Kent State, Scholl, NY, and Barry since those are 4 of the 5 largest schools and also have the lower end of the GPA among applicants in recent past). Sometimes it comes down to the cost of travel for these interviews. I would expect the admissions committees to realize that they'd rather persuade the top 10% of the applicants to come to their school by offering good sized scholarships than admit someone who has a 2.9 cumulative GPA from undergrad.

Just an FYI, from last years entering class here was the first year enrollment at some of the other schools: Western (CA): 35, California Sam Merritt: 46, Arizona Midwestern: 31, Des Moines: 55. So the three Western US Podiatry schools last year had just 112 students combined (two CA + one AZ), while Scholl, NY, Temple, and Kent State all had at least 101 students....Again the location of the schools is also a major part why I am not even bothering to apply to the 4 most western pod schools. I live in Michigan, I could care less about staying here if I make it through podiatry school, but for the time being I really only have looked at a few because of my grades and location.

My personal opinion is that for grades below a cumulative 3.0 hopefully you don't live that west in the USA. Even though the two California pod schools don't have the highest average GPA, those two schools don't tend to have more than 80 combined students in an incoming class (from past data). The furthest west school I believe your GPA stands a chance at is Scholl (in Northern Illinois). Sometimes it sounds harsh, but this is just some constructive criticism & I am not trying to be a d**k about anything. I know my grades aren't stellar at all, but I would never apply to all 9 schools because I would rather save myself $185 by only applying to a max of 4 schools because if I can't get into Kent State, Barry, Temple or Scholl then there is simply no way I would be getting accepted to any of the other 5. Again, if your parents are the ones paying for it and they are well off and that $185 is practically nothing to them then go for it, but for me $185 is an extra $185 I could be putting towards my undergrad student loans and I would rather use it on that than applying to Des Moines, Samuel Merritt, Midwestern, and Western.
 
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Hello, I recently found out about a 3+4 program with my school. I overnighted all my application information to NYCPM to apply to this. I received an email today my application is verified and complete already. When I called the school last week they said they still have some spots open and I should apply.

My undergard gpa is 3.54
Mcat -25 10/5/10 I know I have a low verbal :(

Great LOR, outside work, shadowing the whole deal

What do you guys think ?

Thanks
 
I think you will be fine and the only way for you to not get in to NYCPM is if their class is already full. But you should know that that school also offers a January class so it's not too far out. Best of luck.
 
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My personal opinion is that for grades below a cumulative 3.0 hopefully you don't live that west in the USA. Even though the two California pod schools don't have the highest average GPA, those two schools don't tend to have more than 80 combined students in an incoming class (from past data). The furthest west school I believe your GPA stands a chance at is Scholl (in Northern Illinois). Sometimes it sounds harsh, but this is just some constructive criticism & I am not trying to be a d**k about anything. I know my grades aren't stellar at all, but I would never apply to all 9 schools because I would rather save myself $185 by only applying to a max of 4 schools because if I can't get into Kent State, Barry, Temple or Scholl then there is simply no way I would be getting accepted to any of the other 5. Again, if your parents are the ones paying for it and they are well off and that $185 is practically nothing to them then go for it, but for me $185 is an extra $185 I could be putting towards my undergrad student loans and I would rather use it on that than applying to Des Moines, Samuel Merritt, Midwestern, and Western.

Yeah I think you're right. I was planning on applying to all 9 just for the "what if" scenario, but I should really be more practical and save some money. Probably won't end up applying to Midwestern, Samuel Merritt, or Western. I still want to try DMU. Scholl or NYCPM would be great and are my top two.

Thanks for the constructive criticism; good advice. :)
 
Apply where you can see yourself living. I wouldn't count myself out from any school (unless if I would be autorejected). I had a 2.78 sGPA with a decent MCAT, and DMU ended up offering me more than Scholl or Kent, so obviously there are exceptions to these trends. I wouldn't allow someone online to alter the decisions I make. I think most actual students would agree in that if you're a bad student, you will struggle anywhere, and if you're a good student, you will find success wherever you go. It's not the institution that makes or breaks your career; rather, it's the choices you make while there.
 
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This is the best advice anyone on this forum can take to their heart:

if you're a good student, you will find success wherever you go. It's not the institution that makes or breaks your career; rather, it's the choices you make while there.
 
I think you will be fine and the only way for you to not get in to NYCPM is if their class is already full. But you should know that that school also offers a January class so it's not too far out. Best of luck.
Thank you im hoping they still have spots open and that it all works out!
 
I know this isn't much information, but here is what I have:
GPA: 3.117 Science GPA: about the same
Haven't taken the MCAT yet.
Will be shadowing a DPM or two within the next couple weeks.
I plan on applying as soon as possible! I am really only looking at DMU and Scholl at the moment.
I have experience in a lab with my university and also did conservation research abroad (not sure if this helps?).
I guess my question is more of what should I aim for on the MCAT? Also, will it matter to them that I worked all four years of my undergrad? I feel like it took effort to do both school and work and it would be awesome if they took that into consideration.
I am also taking a few classes with my CC now (Summer) and in the Fall and Spring to help with my GPA. I still haven't taken Organic Chemistry 2... It will be my only class in the Spring (only time it is offered), so I'm thinking I will be able to do well. Will they consider my application without that course?
Any advice would be appreciated.
 
I know this isn't much information, but here is what I have:
GPA: 3.117 Science GPA: about the same
Haven't taken the MCAT yet.
Will be shadowing a DPM or two within the next couple weeks.
I plan on applying as soon as possible! I am really only looking at DMU and Scholl at the moment.
I have experience in a lab with my university and also did conservation research abroad (not sure if this helps?).
I guess my question is more of what should I aim for on the MCAT? Also, will it matter to them that I worked all four years of my undergrad? I feel like it took effort to do both school and work and it would be awesome if they took that into consideration.
I am also taking a few classes with my CC now (Summer) and in the Fall and Spring to help with my GPA. I still haven't taken Organic Chemistry 2... It will be my only class in the Spring (only time it is offered), so I'm thinking I will be able to do well. Will they consider my application without that course?
Any advice would be appreciated.
For DMU you'll need around a 24 to be competitive, Scholl probably 22-23. Obviously aim for much higher than that though, don't study for the exam like you only need that score or you might be in for a nasty surprise if the exam you get is difficult. Scoring higher also increases your scholarship amount.
 
chance me please
3.0cgpa/ 3.1sgpa/ 29 mcat (7v, 12p, 10b)

EC:
-Shadowed doctor 1 MD, 1 DO, 2 DPM
-2 publications with three separate research experiences.
-Pre-med chapter officer for consecutive years
-Ambassador of 3rd world country outreach program.
-Founded a healthcare initiative organization and led medical students lobby for healthcare reform in the capitol
-Camp counselor for children with muscular dystrophy.
-1000+ volunteer hours
-Hospital work
-Tutored underprivileged high school students.

LOR:
2 Strong Science Professor, 1 non-science, 2 MD/ 1DO/ 2DPM

I want to get into Western, CSPM, or AZ. (applying 2014-2015 cycle)
Please let me know my chance.
 
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chance me please
3.0cgpa/ 3.1sgpa/ 29 mcat (7v, 12p, 10b)

EC:
-Shadowed doctor 1 MD, 1 DO, 2 DPM
-2 publications with three separate research experiences.
-Pre-med chapter officer for consecutive years
-Ambassador of 3rd world country outreach program.
-Founded a healthcare initiative organization and led medical students lobby for healthcare reform in the capitol
-Camp counselor for children with muscular dystrophy.
-1000+ volunteer hours
-Hospital work
-Tutored underprivileged high school students.

LOR:
2 Strong Science Professor, 1 non-science, 2 MD/ 1DO/ 2DPM

I want to get into Western, CSPM, or AZ. (applying 2014-2015 cycle)
Please let me know my chance.


You will be fine. Apply early and don't fumble your way through the interviews, and you will have your choice of schools.
 
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Like De Niro said, if you apply early you will have the best chance of receiving scholarship money and will have a GREAT shot at getting accepted to those schools after a decent interview!
 
Hey guys! Long time lurker xD

Applying to all 9 schools. Hoping to get into either WesternU, CSPM, or AZPOD (I'm from CA), but getting into any school would be great.

3.92 cGPA ; 3.78 sGPA, Kinesiology major

22 MCAT (9VR, 7BS, 6PS)

I was in between physical therapy and DO/MD for the longest time. However, I went to a podiatry conference and loved everything the profession had to offer. I am mad at myself for not having discovered podiatry sooner! I will begin shadowing a podiatrist next week (finally got a response :soexcited:).

~ 100 hrs ER volunteer
~ 1 year Marketing V.P. for business org.
- Work experience from a variety of different jobs.
- 2 strong LORs from 2 science professors.

Also, what are my chances at obtaining scholarships?
Thank you everyone!
 
Like De Niro said, if you apply early you will have the best chance of receiving scholarship money and will have a GREAT shot at getting accepted to those schools after a decent interview!
May I ask how much the average scholarship is? Does it help cover the entire/ a part of tuition? Do we have to apply for the scholarship on our own or they send it to qualified students? Also, are there benefit to apply for dual degree in terms of residency placement?
 
3.92 cGPA ; 3.78 sGPA, Kinesiology major

22 MCAT (9VR, 7BS, 6PS)

The GPA and MCAT will get you into every school possible. But I am kinda shocked to see how someone with that high of a GPA only got a 22 on the MCAT. The score is good enough to get you in, but based on the last couple years of being on this forum it seems like there are some people that know they can get into pod school with practically any MCAT score higher than a 20 (if there GPA is above a 3.50) so they don't try that hard, but in the process lose out on some money from scholarships.

AMAZING undergrad GPA because that is what will get you into any of those schools. Just be ready to explain the correlation between your GPA and MCAT score in every interview because really if someone has a 3.9 cumulative GPA but a 22 on their MCAT that will really be the only academic score they will constructively criticize.
 
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The GPA and MCAT will get you into every school possible. But I am kinda shocked to see how someone with that high of a GPA only got a 22 on the MCAT. The score is good enough to get you in, but based on the last couple years of being on this forum it seems like there are some people that know they can get into pod school with practically any MCAT score higher than a 20 (if there GPA is above a 3.50) so they don't try that hard, but in the process lose out on some money from scholarships.

AMAZING undergrad GPA because that is what will get you into any of those schools. Just be ready to explain the correlation between your GPA and MCAT score in every interview because really if someone has a 3.9 cumulative GPA but a 22 on their MCAT that will really be the only academic score they will constructively criticize.

Thank you for your response. I made a big mistake of biting off more than I could chew by studying for it during a heavy semester to try to apply "on time." I had the irrational notion in my head that applying close to day 1 was crucial to getting in and figured I would be okay with my AAMC scores being in the high 20s. My naivete left me burnt out with a lower than expected MCAT score.

Excuses aside, I've been debating whether to invest the rest of the summer to retake it. I have not registered for a retake. I recently checked the earliest dates available around my area would be around November/December. As you have pointed out, I am afraid the adcoms will view the disparity between my GPA and MCAT as a sign of immaturity or unreadiness. What is your opinion on this? Thanks!
 
A 22 would be good enough to get into any school while having that GPA (in my own opinion). I am taking the MCAT in September, but I also have nowhere near as good of a GPA as you. Maybe someone who has gone through the applying and acceptance route would be better to give you answers.

And for the MCAT it is sometimes worth it to look for locations even more than an hour from your current location. For example, I live 45 minutes west from Detroit and many people I went to school with said they took the test in northern Ohio simply because it was take it then or wait another month to take it closer to home.

Really I think that getting a higher MCAT score would simply be just to get more scholarship money from a school and not about the acceptance or decline decision. Podiatry schools aren't getting students that have a near 4.0 undergrad GPA applying.
 
Hey guys! I plan on applying to all schools except for Barry!
cGPA-3.48
sGPA-3.79
MCAT- 22
ECs- 100ish hours volunteering at the local hospital, member of pre-med society, service work in South America(Peru).
15 hours shadowing with DOs
70 hours with a podiatrist

Do you guys think that I will be able to get any scholarships from my stats? I'm all for trying to cut the expenses of school if I can! :)
 
Hey guys! I plan on applying to all schools except for Barry!
cGPA-3.48
sGPA-3.79
MCAT- 22
ECs- 100ish hours volunteering at the local hospital, member of pre-med society, service work in South America(Peru).
15 hours shadowing with DOs
70 hours with a podiatrist

Do you guys think that I will be able to get any scholarships from my stats? I'm all for trying to cut the expenses of school if I can! :)
Sounds like you have pretty solid stats, and although your MCAT is average, your GPA (especially your science) more then makes up for that. I would assume depending on schools bias, timing of when you apply, and of course how your interview goes that you will be fine with getting into most if not all schools and should definitely be able to get scholarship "mula". Toughest part for you will probably be narrowing down where you would like to spend your next four years :). Good Luck and may the interviewing be ever in your favor.
 
Hey guys! I plan on applying to all schools except for Barry!
cGPA-3.48
sGPA-3.79
MCAT- 22
ECs- 100ish hours volunteering at the local hospital, member of pre-med society, service work in South America(Peru).
15 hours shadowing with DOs
70 hours with a podiatrist

Do you guys think that I will be able to get any scholarships from my stats? I'm all for trying to cut the expenses of school if I can! :)

Just curious why no Barry, just wondering what your opinion reason was!
 
Would like to know my chances! Any advice would be appreciated!

cGPA - 3.25
sGPA - 3.23
MCAT - 19, 20, 25 (most recent)
ECs - 150 hrs of ER volunteering, volunteer abroad in Swaziland, Africa, 60hour of volunteer in Children hospital in Korea
about 50 hours of shadowing with DO & MD , 20 hours of shadowing with a podiatrist.


thanks!
 
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Just curious why no Barry, just wondering what your opinion reason was!
I don't really have any methodical explanation as to why not. I have nothing against the school or the program but I just haven't found anything in particular that makes me really excited about the program as I have with other programs. To be totally honest, I probably won't apply to NYC or Temple either. The only reason I might is to cover my bases and see if I can get any good scholarship offers that I may not be offered at other schools. I guess some of the reason is that I'm from the west coast and I don't really want to relocate across country if I don't have to.
 
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Would like to know my chances! Any advice would be appreciated!

cGPA - 3.25
sGPA - 2.23
MCAT - 19, 20, 25 (most recent)
ECs - 150 hrs of ER volunteering, volunteer abroad in Swaziland, Africa, 60hour of volunteer in Children hospital in Korea
about 50 hours of shadowing with DO & MD , 20 hours of shadowing with a podiatrist.


thanks!
I don't want to sound harsh or anything but all of your stats look really good except for that science GPA! Most schools average about a 3.3 cumulative and about a 3.1-3.2 science GPA for successful applicants. I think a lot of the schools have a screen off at a 2.75. If you can, I would work on getting up that science GPA and I would think that you have a legit shot at getting in! Especially with the ECs and your MCAT.
 
I don't want to sound harsh or anything but all of your stats look really good except for that science GPA! Most schools average about a 3.3 cumulative and about a 3.1-3.2 science GPA for successful applicants. I think a lot of the schools have a screen off at a 2.75. If you can, I would work on getting up that science GPA and I would think that you have a legit shot at getting in! Especially with the ECs and your MCAT.


Oops, that was a typ-o. It's 3.23 .. not 2.23 for sGPA.
 
ooohhh haha! Then you should be good I would think! :)
 
Would like to know my chances! Any advice would be appreciated!

cGPA - 3.25
sGPA - 3.23
MCAT - 19, 20, 25 (most recent)
ECs - 150 hrs of ER volunteering, volunteer abroad in Swaziland, Africa, 60hour of volunteer in Children hospital in Korea
about 50 hours of shadowing with DO & MD , 20 hours of shadowing with a podiatrist.


thanks!

Any tips on how you went from a 20 --> 25?

in the same shoes as you, but with a 21 and will be retaking this coming september
 
Any tips on how you went from a 20 --> 25?

in the same shoes as you, but with a 21 and will be retaking this coming september

I basically used princeton review for content review, and did hyperlearning science workbook from TPR.
I also used TBR but thought I liked TPR better than TBR.
Also, I tried to to as much as practice passages I could do since for first and second attempt, I think I focused
more on content review than practice passages.
Hope this helps!
 
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Hey guys,
SO I fell in love with TUSPM. And Im hoping and praying I get in -
here are my stats- Biology Major
GPA: 2.75- but this is because I got screwed one semester when I tried to withdraw and they gave me all F's for that whole semester and I am going thru a few grade changes.
Volunteer Work: logged in about 5000 hours total around the world in medical settings
Shadowing- 50 hours
+ research experience
and im studying for my DAT's right now.

Is there anything else i could do to better my chances...
 
Hey guys,
SO I fell in love with TUSPM. And Im hoping and praying I get in -
here are my stats- Biology Major
GPA: 2.75- but this is because I got screwed one semester when I tried to withdraw and they gave me all F's for that whole semester and I am going thru a few grade changes.
Volunteer Work: logged in about 5000 hours total around the world in medical settings
Shadowing- 50 hours
+ research experience
and im studying for my DAT's right now.

Is there anything else i could do to better my chances...

take the MCAT
 
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1. Barry (my number one because I have a lot of family in florida), Kent, Scholl, Temple, NY
2. 2.9/2.87 in Biology (some chem engineering classes, switched my major)
3. Taking Sept 4th
4. ~30 hours shadowing two different pods
5. ~500 hours shadowing/teching with multiple vets
6. not much volunteering, but a lot of paid community organizing for military families and other job experiences

Applying for the 2015 cycle, early. I've been studying for the past two months for the MCAT, and am studying for a little over another month from now until the test date. I won't have my scores in but am still going to send my application in asap. I know my stats are not strong. I really want to get into Barry, what are my chances for that school in particular? For the rest?

Thank you for the time.
 
1. Barry (my number one because I have a lot of family in florida), Kent, Scholl, Temple, NY
2. 2.9/2.87 in Biology (some chem engineering classes, switched my major)
3. Taking Sept 4th
4. ~30 hours shadowing two different pods
5. ~500 hours shadowing/teching with multiple vets
6. not much volunteering, but a lot of paid community organizing for military families and other job experiences

Applying for the 2015 cycle, early. I've been studying for the past two months for the MCAT, and am studying for a little over another month from now until the test date. I won't have my scores in but am still going to send my application in asap. I know my stats are not strong. I really want to get into Barry, what are my chances for that school in particular? For the rest?

Thank you for the time.

Without an MCAT score, it'll be practically impossible to give you proper feedback.
Although Barry I have noticed is the most willing to accept lower grades/etc.
So you may be in good place with an average MCAT score.
 
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Without an MCAT score, it'll be practically impossible to give you proper feedback.
Although Barry I have noticed is the most willing to accept lower grades/etc.
So you may be in good place with an average MCAT score.
Thank you for the feedback. Obviously I am going to try my best on the MCAT, but what score range would you recommend I need in order to have a chance at either of these schools?
 
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