Official Surgery Shelf Exam Discussion Thread

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how are people finding any time to study for this thing? By the time I get home from the hospital I have a max of like 2 and half hours before I have to sleep, and once you factor in eating, showering, etc and then reading about the surgeries for the next day there just isn't any time left? Also Im always so tired that even if I did spend 30 minutes reading pestana or something, I seriously doubt I would remember anything.

Guess the next time I get a full day off I'll have to devote it to trying to crank through a chunk of Uworld Questions.

If your surgery hours are that bad, that sucks. Unfortunately, you are limited to your days off and weekends. If they expect you to work 7 days a week for 6-12 weeks (depending on length of rotation) tell them to shove it.

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If your surgery hours are that bad, that sucks. Unfortunately, you are limited to your days off and weekends. If they expect you to work 7 days a week for 6-12 weeks (depending on length of rotation) tell them to shove it.

:D Do you work in the same health care system I do? One thing I've learned in this crazy process is "they can always hurt you more".
 
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:D Do you work in the same health care system I do? One thing I've learned in this crazy process is "they can always hurt you more".

Probably not. My surgery hours were relatively decent. Busy days were done by 6, 7 at latest. Non-busy days I was out by 3-4 depending on the service.
 
Yeah, to be truthful my hours weren't bad either, but that was only by the grace of my attending/resident.

Some of these gen surg programs have god awful hours, but there is a wide spectrum.
 
I might've missed this earlier in the thread, but is it imperative to know/memorize all the tables in the NMS casebook? Common sense suggests no (but have a general idea of the material), but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!
 
Is Pestana notes and cases + uworld enough to get 1/2 standard deviation above average? That's what we need for honors.
 
I might've missed this earlier in the thread, but is it imperative to know/memorize all the tables in the NMS casebook? Common sense suggests no (but have a general idea of the material), but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

Probably not. I don't remember each table, but I would not bother memorizing any actual numbers. You don't need to know the cut-offs for Childs-Pugh for the shelf. You just need to know that an albumin of 2.5 is not optimal for a human being.

Sharklasers - Possibly. Hard to say really. I would supplement with SUTM GI/Fluids/Electrolytes and the corresponding UWorld questions +/- a skim of NMS casebook.
 
has anyone tried the actual pestana surgery notes book that is now available on amazon?
(http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Pestanas-Surgery-Notes-Vignettes/dp/1609789164/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&qid=1374957433&sr=8-1&keywords=pestana+surgery) wondering how it would compare to the older notes... all i have is the 79 page document.

also, does anyone have any input on if reading selected step up to medicine topics and doing some UWorld questions outside of surgery ones is really beneficial for those who have not done internal med before surgery? it seems some people do and some dont, but given the minimal time i have outside the hospital, i want to only do what will really help! :)
 
thought i'd ask about the nbme practice shelf exams again. anyone have any experience? good predictor/bad predictor?

thanks!
 
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Hi everyone, I finally decided to jump on the SDN bandwagon. I'm starting my Surgery Clerkship and would like some advice on how best to prepare for the Shelf. I did IM already, but wasn't too happy with my score, so my confidence in my general medicine knowledge isn't super high. From sifting through the previous posts, it seems like NMS Casebook and UWorld Surgery questions are key. I'm reading a lot about Pestana audio and notes, but I'm not sure what those are or where to find them. Could someone send them my way is possible, please?

Thanks!
 
How are the questions on the NBME compared to those on UWorld? Tougher or about the same?

I've had a run of blocks (with GI/hepatic IM questions) where I've done pretty awfully, even though I feel like I have a good grasp of the material and was doing well on the wards. Trying to gauge if that poor performance means I need to be super-worried or not. Also, is there a certain UWorld percentage to "aim" for? Kind of like how >70-75% for Step I meant that you were in pretty decent shape. I'm consistently hovering around the 70% mark, without much improvement (which is disheartening). Thanks!
 
As someone who has surgery before IM would anyone recommend using the big nms surgery book instead of the smaller casebook to cover the relevant medicine or is casebook plus supplementing with su2m the better way to go. Also, has anyone tried the kaplan step2 ck qbook and think it was useful? Thanks!
 
How are the questions on the NBME compared to those on UWorld? Tougher or about the same?

I've had a run of blocks (with GI/hepatic IM questions) where I've done pretty awfully, even though I feel like I have a good grasp of the material and was doing well on the wards. Trying to gauge if that poor performance means I need to be super-worried or not. Also, is there a certain UWorld percentage to "aim" for? Kind of like how >70-75% for Step I meant that you were in pretty decent shape. I'm consistently hovering around the 70% mark, without much improvement (which is disheartening). Thanks!

I thought that the shelf was harder than UWorld, but I was well-prepared for the shelf just by doing UWorld and Pestana and Kaplan.

70% for first pass through UWorld is actually quite good. I was averaging 65% first pass on surgery questions last year and earned honors on the shelf.
 
I took the shelf friday...I thought it had a lot of questions that weren't really covered in the review books. A lot of blood disorders and just general medicine questions. I came out of it feeling like I did terrible.

Anyways I did Casefiles x2 and NMS casebook and Uworld Surgery questions along with some medicine questions too. and pestana notes were helpful too.

I got a scaled score of 80...whatever that means. Hopefully its good enough for a solid grade in the clerkship.
 
I received an "85 raw score" on the exam per school report. Surgery was my first rotation. i read NMS casebook one time, Pestana notes (79 page) two times, Pestana BOOK one time, and did the Uworld surgery questions twice (did not do any medicine questions). I did well, but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking it was awful.

I HIGHLY recommend the pestana BOOK. It is $16 on amazon I believe and it has about 80 or so pages of reading on different topics then 180 questions presented in a clinical vignette. In the back it gives the correct answer...no explanation, but it provides a page and paragraph answer to find the answer in the first half of the book. The questions were very good. Really recommend it, especially because it is a very very thin book that slips into a white coat pocket easily without adding much weight. I would pull it out and do a question or two while waiting for a surgery to start.

I didn't study any kind of medicine because I hoped that whatever little knowledge I retained from step 1 studying would carry me through and I didn't want to delve into the thousands of uworld med q's. Satisfied with my score in the end though...I hope...since I have no idea what that actually means.
 
From what I have gathered by talking to those who already took their first shelf last week at my school, there is a percentile score and a scaled score. The percentile score is how well you did on that shelf while the scaled score takes that percentile and gives you a score based on those who took the exam at the same time you did (first rotation, last rotation etc) Basically it bumps your percentage up if you took it as your first rotation because they expect you to know less at that point versus if this is your last rotation and you should know enough to kill the test. Our school uses the percentile score to gauge if you got honors or not while the scaled score is just basically BS to make you feel better.

I am not sure how other schools do it, but it seems like it is pretty tough to honor if it is just your percentile score. I take my surgery shelf this friday and am pretty scared since I have had little time to study (because I was with a surgeon who worked 24/7). So I am hoping with reviewing NMS and Pestana's I will be good. So I will let you all know after I take it!
 
Didn't have a lot of time to study for Surgery since my doc worked 14 hour days. But here is what I did:

Pestana X 2
UWorld X 2,
NMS Casebook X1
questions from Pre-Test and Kaplan
Med Ed Online videos

I felt like the exam is not geared to Surgery only. As my first rotation, I felt very unprepared for all the medicine questions they ask. You really need to have a very good basis in internal if you want to do well on surgery. I was hoping my Step 1 knowledge would help, but since most of the questions ask about diagnostic tests, it really did not. The classmates that took the exam with me felt the same way. I felt the right answer was not always there even when I knew what they were asking. I think only 1 out of 10 questions were easy and I knew the answer. I was mostly guessing from 2 or 3 answer choices for most of the questions. UWorld is way too easy and the concepts they try to focus on are simply just not asked any more on the NBME. I really do not know what advice to give since I felt none of the resources do it justice. The Med Ed videos are great, but just give you the basics just like Pestana's does. I mean it is enough to pass, because I passed just fine, but if you want to get honors or do well you really just need to hope you have internal beforehand or be a good test taker (both of which were not in my favor). We only get 8 weeks of surgery so it is hard to learn everything you need to and do well on the wards and in the OR. I got excellent reviews from my surgeon, but if you do not do well on the NBME you can never honor the course. Our school requires a 75th percentile (which usually equates to a scaled score in the 90s) to get honors and they never give honors to anyone who scores below that regardless how amazing your preceptor thinks you are. So it kinda sucks its lopsided that way for us.

Anyway, I did both of the practice NBMEs as well and felt they were useful because I saw some repeat concepts, but the difficulty was nowhere near the same. I scored 74, and 76 on the two I took and totally got rocked on the actual NBME with a scaled score of 67. So I do not think they help in predicting your score at all. I do not know what my percentile is yet, but I am guessing it will be around 50% since a scaled score of 70 is usually a percentile of 50%. We only need 10% to pass though so got that covered!

Hope this helped. Good luck to everyone taking it soon!
 
I am guessing it will be around 50% since a scaled score of 70 is usually a percentile of 50%. We only need 10% to pass though so got that covered! !

I'm going to break it to you straightforwardly. You will be disappointed.

The NBME shelf exams were scaled to a median score of 70 back in 1994 (93?). The median shelf score these days runs somewhere in the mid to high 70's, depending on the subject. The standard deviation (like in the early 90's), remains somewhere around 7. The "percentile" score you get will be determined by whether your school ranks students by internal distribution, national distribution, competitor school distribution, and whether they take into account "year quarter." The variance is usually around +-3 for those factors.

A score of 67, for reference, would be barely 10%ile on most shelf exams, again varying based on the specific subject and those other contributing factors.
 
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I'm going to break it to you straightforwardly. You will be disappointed.

The NBME shelf exams were scaled to a median score of 70 back in 1994 (93?). The median shelf score these days runs somewhere in the mid to high 70's, depending on the subject. The standard deviation (like in the early 90's), remains somewhere around 7. The "percentile" score you get will be determined by whether your school ranks students by internal distribution, national distribution, competitor school distribution, and whether they take into account "year quarter." The variance is usually around +-3 for those factors.

A score of 67, for reference, would be barely 10%ile on most shelf exams, again varying based on the specific subject and those other contributing factors.

^This. I didn't have an average below about 75 or 76 all of last year. And it's not in proper bellcurve fashion, so you can't go 2 standard deviations down (say 7/8) and say you're still going to be passing.

Last year the minimum passing was as low as 64, and as high as 69.
 
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I'm going to break it to you straightforwardly. You will be disappointed.

The NBME shelf exams were scaled to a median score of 70 back in 1994 (93?). The median shelf score these days runs somewhere in the mid to high 70's, depending on the subject. The standard deviation (like in the early 90's), remains somewhere around 7. The "percentile" score you get will be determined by whether your school ranks students by internal distribution, national distribution, competitor school distribution, and whether they take into account "year quarter." The variance is usually around +-3 for those factors.

A score of 67, for reference, would be barely 10%ile on most shelf exams, again varying based on the specific subject and those other contributing factors.

Well just for all of your references, I got a 32% with a scaled score of 67. So obviously my school does some voodoo magic when it comes to getting a percentile score. We were told that we get compared to all of the students who took it the previous year (2011-2012) and at the same time we did (first rotation, second rotation, etc). So therefore a scaled score of lets say 70 is going to give you a different percentage depending on what time of the year you took it because they use the principle of "you know more the further you go in your training" which makes sense to me. Seeing that surgery was my first rotation ever, they are more generous with your percentile based on your scaled score. Also, as few as 5 questions can make your percentile/scale score jump high or low. It is a very steep curve.

I am glad I passed as it was a very difficult exam, and sorry I am not your regular gunner/90+ person. I know the rest of my classmates either got the same scaled score I got, or were slightly higher (1 or 2 points) and some got even lower. Our class average was a 40%. So to all you non-gunners out there it is okay to just pass and do not feel bummed when someone tries to "disappoint you" by saying you are barely going to pass. Remember P=MD and yes it would be nice to honors and you should always try your best, but you are still gonna be a doctor just like the rest of everyone else here! :]
 
besides surgery and GI, what uworld questions are you guys doing to prepare?

also uworld seems to have a huge focus on trauma. does the actual exam reflect that?

and just to confirm, the actual shelf is 2.5 hours with 100 questions? (it will be my first shelf exam)
 
Not a lot of trauma at all. It is mostly internal type of questions. Yes it is 2.5 hours and 100 questions. The stems are a lot longer so just a heads up because it seems like a ton of time now. I really do not know what to tell you in terms of studying except try and find time to go over more internal questions and see what you may think would be relevant in surgery.
 
hi all, from second practice shelf i got the following questions wrong and was hoping for some feedback on the reasoning behind them:

1. Patient scheduled for AAA repair (6 cm, palpable), with hx of HTN controlled with drug therapy. ECG shows normal findings. which study is most appropriate to predict this patient's risk for perioperative MI?
a. measurement of serum cholesterol concentration
b. 24hr ambulatory ECG monitoring
c. coronary angiography
d. surface echo
e. radionuclide scan with thallium and dipyrimadole

surface echo is wrong, i put that since they focus on EF% so often in practice questions; not sure why that is wrong. my next guess would be e, the stress test.

I think it's E, the stress test. You can rule out all the other answers. The 24-hr ECG isn't going to show you something the ECG already didn't show. Coronary angiography is too invasive. A doesn't make too much sense here. There's also nothing suggesting a compromised EF.

2. Patient (77F) in nursing home brought to ED bc of 2 day hx of fever+vomiting. alert but can't give hx. asks repeatedly for drink of water. temp is 101.5, BP 100/60. distended, nontender abdomen with sparse high pitched bowel sounds. XRay shows multiple dilated loops of small bowel and gas within the small bowel and within the liver. what's the most likely cause?

a. bacterial cholangitis caused by Klebisella pneumoniae
b. cholecystoduodenal fistula with impacted gallstone
c. emphysematous cholecystitis with intrahepatic perforation
e. perforated duodenal ulcer with subhepatic abscess
f. pylephlebitis caused by sigmoid diverticulitis

c is wrong; not sure what else would cause gas in the liver.

It's B, checystoduodenal fistula. Air in the biliary tree is a classic finding for a fistula between the gallbladder and small intestine -- because of the large fistula, you have a large gallstone pass into the small intestine and cause gallstone ileus.

3. during exploratory celiotomy, cystadenoma found in tail of pancreas. most appropriate management?
a. internal drainage into roux en Y limb of jejunum
b. simple external drainage
c. distal pancreatectomy
d. total pancreatectomy
e. whipple

b is wrong; would the answer be a then?

Distal pancreatectomy. A cystadenoma is not an abscess to just drain...

4. 2 days post carotid endarterectomy, patient has stroke like symptoms and intraparenchymal hemorrhage; carotid duplex US normal. this complication is caused by:
a. carotid thrombosis (wrong)
b. HTN
c. intracranial aneurysm
d. intracranial tumor
e. platelet dysfunction

I think it's incracranial aneurysm.

5. hospitalized teen has progressive SOB for 2 hrs after appendectomy yesterday; hasn't been out of bed since then. had mild dry cough, no chest pain. 2 L NS given over past 24h. alert, temp 99.8, RR:22, HR:90, BP: 105/64. No JVD. Decreased breath sounds. Dullness to percussion over right midlung field with egophony. no wheezes or gallops. holosystolic murmur radiating to axilla. what's most likely underlying cause of patient's shortness of breath?

a. acute thrombosis of right pulmonary artery
b. aspiration of gastric contents during preop intubation
c. collapse of right middle lobe of the lung from decreased inspiratory effort
d. postop infection from hospital acquired organisms
e. severe MR with periop volume overload (wrong)

I think it's B. Not entirely sure, though.

6. 9 days after pylorus-sparing pancreatoduodenectomy, pt has dyspnea. NG tube draining 500 mL/d. Over past 3 days, an operative drain in the RUQ draining 200 to 300 mL/d clear fluid; fluid has amylase> 5000 U/L. HR:90, RR:24, BP:130/70. Serum:
Na: 138
Cl:112
K: 4.2
HCO3: 18

ABG: pH=7.32; PCO2= 22; PO2= 95
What is the cause of these findings?
a. adrenal insufficiency
b. inadequate renal blood flow
c. increased lactic acid production
d. injury to the renal tubules
e. loss of bicarbonate from GI tract
f. loss of bicarbonate from kidneys (wrong)
g. NG suction

It's a metabolic acidosis with a normal anion gap. I would go with loss of HCO3- from the GI tract.

7. Patient extubated after 4hr op for bleeding duodenal ulcer. ABG on FiO2 of 40%:
pH=7.24; PCO2=85; PO2=60
What's the most appropriate next step in management?
a. encouraging deep breathing and cough
b. increasing the FiO2 to 80% (wrong)
c. IV administration of 1 L Ringer's over 30 min
d. IV naloxone
e. reintubation and mechanical ventilation

Reintubation and ventilation. The patient's issue is with ventilation -- simply increasing FiO2 isn't going to do anything and none of the other answer choices make sense. You need to protect the airway (ABCs) -- choice E is the best one here.

Hope that helps.
 
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Additional question from practice form #2:

pt brought to ER after gunshot to calf, writhing in pain, temp is 98.6, RR=16,BP: 110/76. exam shows 1 cm entrance wound over medial aspect of posterior right calf with no exit wound. calf is tense and tender to palpation. passive movement of the great toe exacerbates the patient's calf pain. peripheral pulses are normal. capillary refill time is 2 seconds. senation intact. Xrays show 1 cm bullet in medial aspect of posterior calf. what's best next step?

a. MRI of right lower extremity
b. antibiotics
c. irrigation of wound (wrong)
d. femoral arteriography
e. surgical decompression

That's the key piece of information there. He's got compartment syndrome. Peripheral pulses can be completely normal till late into the progression of compartment syndrome, so don't depend on the presence or absence of peripheral pulse to guide you. This guy needs an emergent fasciotomy (choice E).
 
Raw score: 84
Scaled: 96

This was my first rotation. I only used: Pestana + UWorld (all surgery Q's and ~500 internal medicine Q's) + Emma Ramahi's Surgery shelf review

Didn't use First Aid, NMS, etc. Some Step 1 knowledge helped (micro, antibiotics, etc.). Exam was mostly Internal Medicine questions. Pestana wasn't as high yield as I hoped but I guess it's the best resource out there.
 
Thought I'd throw in my experiences... Just got NBME score report back from 9/20 test day. It says total scaled score 82, which I guess is the "raw" score?
6 week long rotation, following a 6 week IM rotation. I suppose that helped! #1 study source was probably Case Files, which I got maybe halfway through. I did 1 NBME practice test a few days before, with a similar score. Also looked over some of a Pestana pdf (don't have audio files, sorry!). Otherwise spent lots of pre-OR time with Surgical Recall, and we also had weekly reading assignments from an incredibly dense Lange textbook that frequently put me to sleep.
I'm pleasantly surprised with my score, definitely didn't feel as prepared going into this one as I did for the IM shelf, which I had relied on UWorld and Step-Up for.

Edit: I guess I could talk about the test a little? From what I remember, lots of 'next best step' stuff, like what would be the best 1st test to work up some specific cancer/infection/etc. There was a question about most likely bug after describing a particular infection presentation. I took the hit on gyn questions. Hopefully that's helpful but not overly specific!
 
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Idk what Pestana audio is but I doubt it's much higher yield than the notes/book. The key to doing well on the surgery shelf is knowing as much internal medicine as possible.
 
Idk what Pestana audio is but I doubt it's much higher yield than the notes/book. The key to doing well on the surgery shelf is knowing as much internal medicine as possible.

I don't know. I still hear his soothing voice in my ear. Nabbed me like 10 questions on Step 2.

Please don't message me for his audio.
 
Did the NBME surgery practice exams help anyone do better on their shelf?
 
Did the NBME surgery practice exams help anyone do better on their shelf?

helped to make me feel more confident and get an idea of what internal medicine topics to concentrate on.
however, the actual exam had much longer stems and more superfluous information in each.


Uworld surgery and internal medicine would be the best practice questions.
 
Thanks!

Test is Monday. Tomorrow (before night cal), is really the only time I'd have available to do a shelf. I'll probably just finish the Kaplan notes and hit Q-bank some. Medicine is pretty strong but I believe there really isn't enough time to change tactics or add material. Pretty much planning to watch football Sunday and be well-rested for the morning.
 
Test was definitely doable and really didn't have any weird stuff. People here are pretty dead on when they say it's about 40% medicine. If my second-guess reflex was held in check, score should be pretty good.
 
Took the shelf this past Friday at the end of my 8 weeks of surgery. This was my second rotation and was preceded by medicine. Here's what I did:

Essentials of General Surgery (Lawrence) - Read this whole textbook and outlined each chapter during the first 5 weeks of the rotation
UWorld - Surgery, GI, hepatobiliary and musculoskeletal questions + other random medicine questions
Pestana notes - Read these and did all of the practice questions 2 days before the shelf
FA Step 2 CK - Read GI, musculoskeletal and EM sections
Surgical Recall - Read the relevant sections prior to cases in the OR

NBME practice 1 - 74
NBME practice 2 - 72

Actual shelf score - 85

Very happy with my result. I'm glad the practice exams were not very predictive of my actual score. The Pestana book was VERY helpful.
 
I used
NMS casebook
Pestana

Questions
Uworld: GI, hepbil, fluids, surgery, renal
Usmle Rx and Kaplan (same or similar sections as I did in world)
Pretest


87.

Only one question I didn't actually know. There were about 7 I second guessed myself right to wrong. NMS covered mostly all the things on my test. I think doing questions was really the best thing. There were more things I got wrong that were in pestana than were obscure.
 
anyone know if this exam is still scaled to 70 being the mean? i got my score report back this morning and there was some mention of the "average" being in the mid 70s in recent years. not sure if they're referring to raw score averages or the scaled score mean.

89 scaled

NMS casebook was solid
Pestana provided a good framework.
4-5 verbatim repeat questions from the 2 available NBME self assessment exams.
UWorld surgery, GI, hepatobiliary, and random medicine topics. No more than 300 questions total.

Mann and surgical recall pretty useless for the exam.
Overall I would agree with Benesyed. NMS casebook + UWorld questions will get you a good score. NBME self assessment exams were a little on the easy side imo.

edit: something that might be worth looking into that NMS casebook doesn't really cover is pediatric surgical emergencies and congenital potential GI catastrophes.
 
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If I were to do anything different I would have left a qbank to do fresh the last week so my mind was sharper and reread pestana closely.

TBH once you start hitting the 80s-90s it just comes down to how "on" you are. When I took a practice shelf the first one i took i got in the 90s and the second one low 80s. Any given sunday :D
 
NBME #1: lady with the BMI of 67. Panniculectomy??
NBME #2: guy with left inguinal sebaceous cyst, temp 102, black edema. surgical debridment?

thanks
 
NBME #1: lady with the BMI of 67. Panniculectomy??
NBME #2: guy with left inguinal sebaceous cyst, temp 102, black edema. surgical debridment?

thanks

Gastric bypass was the answer for the first one. I don't remember the second question, but that sounds like a surgical urgency.
 
When everyone says they used the Pestana notes do they mean the book that he is now selling (super thin with some questions at the end) or are people talking about old kaplan notes or some other source?
 
Hey there past surgery rotators who for some reason still read this thread:

Shelf is in two weeks. Wondering beyond the usual resources, where to focus my energies. Would you guys say that the "medicine" questions on your shelf focused on surgical ICU/post-operative care type questions, or on determining when patients don't need surgery, because they have a condition requiring medical management? I feel like the surgical aspect of the shelf should be pretty straight forward, but that I don't really know where to focus in terms of the non-Pestana/typically high-yield material.
 
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