Older nontrad with foreign bachelors...

[Kastalia]

Hi all!

Just embarking on this path and would greatly appreciate some advice...

I'm a 35 yo with undergrad in chemistry from a foreign county and masters and doctorate from top US schools (in epidemiology).

I have a good but demanding academic job that I want to keep. Is this realistic? I just enrolled in a second bachelors at Columbia GS and plan to take 2 courses per semester starting in the fall. I want to do this right and have as many options as possible.

Of course If at all possible I would like to avoid taking inorganic and organic chemistry + labs and take more advanced courses instead but I realize that this may not be feasible...thoughts?

Any advice from others with similar background would be greatly appreciated. I must admit that I am anxious at times due to my age and all the additional years of school.

Thanks in advance!!!!

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[DrMikeP]

Your case is unique so contact some med schools you would like to attend and ask their opinions. Ultimately though the system is geared to want what every 20 something med student has, strong undergrad required science, bachelor's, and strong mcat. It's hard to get through the automatic filters without those. I returned with my doctorate and found the fastest and easiest path was just give the schools what they wanted. Being an undergrad again stinks but there are advantages in maturity.

Best of luck

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[Kastalia]

DrMikeP

Thank you!

I think at this point I should just start with prereqs I haven't taken ever before and see how it goes. I've been an overachiever academically (3.9+/top of class for previous degrees.) so I can't imagine that this step will be too difficult but I am anxious anyway.

Is your first bachelors from another country? How many extra undergrad credits did you take? At what point did you start volunteering/shadowing? Any other advice you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Your case is unique so contact some med schools you would like to attend and ask their opinions. Ultimately though the system is geared to want what every 20 something med student has, strong undergrad required science, bachelor's, and strong mcat. It's hard to get through the automatic filters without those. I returned with my doctorate and found the fastest and easiest path was just give the schools what they wanted. Being an undergrad again stinks but there are advantages in maturity.

Best of luck

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[DrMikeP]

I had my bachelor's and doctorate from the US. I retook and took all of the std requirements. Shadowing wasn't an issue as I was on medical staff in a hospital and worked along side of physicians for yrs.

For most starting earlier to shadow and volunteer can be helpful as it takes time to find such and you don't want to be in a position of trying to do 20hrs a week at the end.

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[QofQuimica]

I know you don't want to go "backwards" and re-take UG chem classes, but consider this: that material is essential for the MCAT, and if you're 35, it has probably been at least 15 years since you last reviewed it. Not only that, but since it's not your first pass, it will be relatively easy for you to get an A in those classes, giving you more time to focus on the material that is new to you in other classes. For both of those reasons (boost your GPA and prepare yourself well for the MCAT), retaking the classes is likely a good idea.

FWIW, it is sometimes possible to get exceptions made. I went to med school at age 31 and did not have to redo my prereqs. BUT, I did have an American UG degree; I have a PhD in chemistry and had been teaching UG GC/organic classes; I had taken graduate level p. chem and organic chem classes; and I had scored very high on the MCAT. So none of the schools really minded how old my prereqs were. Still, if I were in your situation, I'd retake, for all the reasons I gave above.

 

[med2025]

Hello All, sorry if i am hijacking this thread. I am an Indian National who married a US citizen. (So hoping visas wont be a problem).I have my bachelors from India back in 2007 in Computers.. Would like to know if I do my postbacc and complete prereqs for med school, would that be 'sufficient' or do the schools insist on having a bachelors from a US school?

if latter, i have the following in mind and would like to get your opinion on this as well
do a nursing school (i assume this is also a 3 year bachelor degree?) and by the time i get out, i have options to continue with nursing (if i screw up the mcat) and if i do make it with the mcat - its all good because i have a bachelors degree as well. how does this sound?

if former, well things would be much easier because i could continue with my IT job and do a part time post-bacc
i am not keen on getting into a top school but would like to get into a decent school so by the time i get out (i would be around 40) , i would still be competitive (assuming by then there could be a glut of doctors )

interests - for now primary care - also endocrinology/orthopedics are my interests (i know they are extremely competetive)

 

[SpicyFalafel]

OP, you need to start contacting some of the medical schools that you plan to attend. You have 2 options to get things done quicker.
1- you need to get your degree evaluated by WES then you may have to contact admission at any college or university and ask that you need to apply as a transfer student. Later, they will request your evaluation, transfer at least 90 credit hours with your GPA and then you just need to finish your pre-reqs. Note that once your fill your AMCAS both of your Transfer and US GPA will factor into their calculations. This will show any school that you have a US degree( undergrad).
2- you have the option to enroll at any college to get your pre-reqs done which are 32 credit hours, and then list your foreign degree by it self. This will only grant you a US GPA, but it will still show that your have a foreign degree which shouldn't be a problem to some schools.
Any medical school emphasis on taking pre-reqs in the US, so these two options eliminate any doubts.

 

[Dullhead]

Later, they will request your evaluation, transfer at least 90 credit hours with your GPA and then you just need to finish your pre-reqs. Note that once your fill your AMCAS both of your Transfer and US GPA will factor into their calculations. This will show any school that you have a US degree( undergrad)...

Have you actually seen this done? I mean, know people who have successfully done this (in particular, the 90 credits part)?

 

[SpicyFalafel]

Have you actually seen this done? I mean, know people who have successfully done this (in particular, the 90 credits part)?

I am a non trad with a foreign degree and I am doing this right now.
I am only considering DO schools because my grades were terrible. I suggested this option because she has a 3.9 which would be factored into both sGPA and cGPA.
For ACCOMAS, it doesn't matter if your credits are transferred or not. They will only calculate your GPA based on any US course work only.

 

[Dullhead]

I am a non trad with a foreign degree and I am doing this right now.
I am only considering DO schools because my grades were terrible. I suggested this option because she has a 3.9 which would be factored into both sGPA and cGPA.
For ACCOMAS, it doesn't matter if your credits are transferred or not. They will only calculate your GPA based on any US course work only.

Good to know. I always thought that most schools cap off number of credits that can be transferred to 3-4 semesters worth (40 - 50 credits) or something, so this is good to know.

 

[Kastalia]

@DrMikeP

Thanks for the info. So glad things worked out for you!

Im going to start exploring shadowing opportunities. I'm excited!

 

[Kastalia]

@QofQuimica

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply! I really appreciated it.

I'm planning to start with some new material (e.g.biology) and explore chemistry options a little later (what about jumping to parts II of inorganic and organic chemistry?). Also, I'd like to take some English/writing, social sciences and humanities housework that is recommended. I'm not a native English speaker and my undergrad was very technical. I would enjoy this not only because my application would be more well rounded but also because I never really had a chance to obtain a true liberal arts education.

Columbia would accept 60 transfer credits and require 64 more to complete the second bachelors.i may have to take 70. Would this be an overkill? Prereqs (chemistry, biology and physics with labs) would total around 40 credits and the rest would go towards a major (im thinking neuroscience) and other requuirements. Would adcoms view this as too much/unnecessary coursework?

Thanks again for the helpful feedback and advice !

 

[Kastalia]

@ALT.F.Doc

Great idea. Ive only contacted a couple a schools a year ago.

I have my undergrad evaluated by WES and starting a second bachelors at Columbia GS this fall. Choosing between post bac and second bachelors was difficult but my first undergrad was ridiculously technical (no electives such as sociology, anthropology, psychology etc.) and I never studied English formally so I thought that it would be best to just go for the degree in thus situation. It would likely be about 70 credits, 40 of which prereqs.

I hope this us not excessive. At the end the degree should open up more opportunities...or i would at least hope so..

OP, you need to start contacting some of the medical schools that you plan to attend. You have 2 options to get things done quicker.
1- you need to get your degree evaluated by WES then you may have to contact admission at any college or university and ask that you need to apply as a transfer student. Later, they will request your evaluation, transfer at least 90 credit hours with your GPA and then you just need to finish your pre-reqs. Note that once your fill your AMCAS both of your Transfer and US GPA will factor into their calculations. This will show any school that you have a US degree( undergrad).
2- you have the option to enroll at any college to get your pre-reqs done which are 32 credit hours, and then list your foreign degree by it self. This will only grant you a US GPA, but it will still show that your have a foreign degree which shouldn't be a problem to some schools.
Any medical school emphasis on taking pre-reqs in the US, so these two options eliminate any doubts.

 

[Kastalia]

@Dullhead
I have also seen this done but not where I am and I am restricted to Columbia U because I have a job. Here I could only transfer 60. A new degree would be at least 64, in my case 70+... But I've decided I would go for this. After 3 previous degrees. I think Im insane but I just don't want to invest so much into this dream only to have my options limited due to the lack of a US UG degree.

What is your experience?

Have you actually seen this done? I mean, know people who have successfully done this (in particular, the 90 credits part)?

 

[Dullhead]

@Dullhead

What is your experience?

I came to this journey late and even if I wanted to transfer at this point, I would not be able. The college I attended is now part of a reorganized university system and I attended so long ago, I have no doubt that transcripts don't exist anymore. Right now I have 60 credits from CC and will have a total of 70 ish at application and 84 at matriculation time. I hope they'll let me in with that otherwise I'll have to up the gap year load taking underwater basket weaving classes to hit 90 credits.

 

[Kastalia]

@Dullhead

From what I have read if you have a US degree, the extra credits including all Prereqs should be sufficient. From what you wrote this appears to be the case. It just seems to be more complicated with foreign credentials.

You are so close, just keep going. Good luck !!

I came to this journey late and even if I wanted to transfer at this point, I would not be able. The college I attended is now part of a reorganized university system and I attended so long ago, I have no doubt that transcripts don't exist anymore. Right now I have 60 credits from CC and will have a total of 70 ish at application and 84 at matriculation time. I hope they'll let me in with that otherwise I'll have to up the gap year load taking underwater basket weaving classes to hit 90 credits.

 

[Dullhead]

@Dullhead
From what I have read if you have a US degree, the extra credits including all Prereqs should be sufficient. From what you wrote this appears to be the case. It just seems to be more complicated with foreign credentials. You are so close, just keep going. Good luck !!

You are correct. I think you're on the right track in going for a second bachelor's. It'll take longer, but it'll be much cleaner. Good luck to you as well.

 

[QofQuimica]

@QofQuimica

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply! I really appreciated it.

I'm planning to start with some new material (e.g.biology) and explore chemistry options a little later (what about jumping to parts II of inorganic and organic chemistry?). Also, I'd like to take some English/writing, social sciences and humanities housework that is recommended. I'm not a native English speaker and my undergrad was very technical. I would enjoy this not only because my application would be more well rounded but also because I never really had a chance to obtain a true liberal arts education.

Columbia would accept 60 transfer credits and require 64 more to complete the second bachelors.i may have to take 70. Would this be an overkill? Prereqs (chemistry, biology and physics with labs) would total around 40 credits and the rest would go towards a major (im thinking neuroscience) and other requuirements. Would adcoms view this as too much/unnecessary coursework?

Thanks again for the helpful feedback and advice !

No, I don't think anyone would view that as overkill. The most important thing to keep in mind if you need exceptions to be made for an unusual academic background is that you need to have strong stats. So, focus your effort on getting good grades in your prereqs (aim for a 3.8+ GPA), and a good MCAT score. If you have strong stats, and you have good ECs, then many other unusual aspects of your app can be forgiven. Such as, I went to a P/F college where I had no UG grades, no GPA, and no credit hours. But when I say I had a good MCAT score, I mean I had a really good MCAT score (43 on the old scale). And I had straight As in my PhD classes. No one ever questioned whether I could handle the academic rigor of a med school curriculum even though I had "pass" as my grade for all of my prereqs, all of which were a decade old.

 

[Kastalia]

@QofQuimica

Thank you for your feedback! For now I will just take classes and try to enjoy it. Just met my academic advisor (for 2nd bachelors) today and he didn't seem alarmed I'm back to undergrad after grad school...

So glad things worked out for you and you are helping people in my situation figure things out.

No, I don't think anyone would view that as overkill. The most important thing to keep in mind if you need exceptions to be made for an unusual academic background is that you need to have strong stats. So, focus your effort on getting good grades in your prereqs (aim for a 3.8+ GPA), and a good MCAT score. If you have strong stats, and you have good ECs, then many other unusual aspects of your app can be forgiven. Such as, I went to a P/F college where I had no UG grades, no GPA, and no credit hours. But when I say I had a good MCAT score, I mean I had a really good MCAT score (43 on the old scale). And I had straight As in my PhD classes. No one ever questioned whether I could handle the academic rigor of a med school curriculum even though I had "pass" as my grade for all of my prereqs, all of which were a decade old.

 

[Traumweber]

Different M.D schools have different reqs. For e.g. Utah needs a U.S bachelors but a majority don't. I suggest repeating the pre req classes and labs at a U.S university to be safe.
In many cases the 90hr credit requirement includes all credits including graduate course credit. Only in a few cases do they specify that they need to be all undergraduate credit. Unless you specifically want to go to a particular school requiring 90 undergrad credit hours or u.s bachelors degree, I don't see a need for a second bachelors beyond personal interests.
So do a thorough research on the schools you are interested in.
I have a foreign bachelors and U.S graduate degrees and applied to my chosen schools and got multiple m.d. admits with only the required prereq undergraduate credits that I took at a local university (the usual gen chem, physics, bio etc with labs) and the rest in U.S. graduate credits to satisfy the 90 hour requirment (grad credits dont count towards amcas gpa). I did this while pursuing a full time research career in industry.

 

[073116]

I'm 39 and I have a foreign Bachelors Degree. Started doing prereqs for 2 years when I was 37. Just got accepted to a DO school without any issues. So prereqs route is easiest and more straightforward IMHO. Main areas to focus on is MCAT score and your GPA. Most MD/DO schools don't give rat's a$$ about your US degree (whatever that may be). I did not applied to MD schools only because I missed deadline and I didn't want to wait another year (old enough already). I was even almost late for DO cycle. Otherwise my MCAT scores and GPA would have landed MD acceptances too. However, for my purposed and specialty of choice it doesn't matter MD or Do at all. So all that said I have a feeling that you want to keep your job and you are aiming at specific school. This can work but IMHO you are limiting yourself in choice. There are numerous instances every year when applicants with very high MCAT and high GPAs don't get accepted to their schools of choice. Unless you want to be a martyr and suffer consequences I would strongly advise to consider opening your choices and possibilities and get more adaptive (don't hold for your job, it's not going to be compatible with med.school anyway). Just my 2c

 

[gyngyn]

Hello All, sorry if i am hijacking this thread. I am an Indian National who married a US citizen. (So hoping visas wont be a problem).I have my bachelors from India back in 2007 in Computers.. Would like to know if I do my postbacc and complete prereqs for med school, would that be 'sufficient' or do the schools insist on having a bachelors from a US school?

if latter, i have the following in mind and would like to get your opinion on this as well
do a nursing school (i assume this is also a 3 year bachelor degree?) and by the time i get out, i have options to continue with nursing (if i screw up the mcat) and if i do make it with the mcat - its all good because i have a bachelors degree as well. how does this sound?

if former, well things would be much easier because i could continue with my IT job and do a part time post-bacc
i am not keen on getting into a top school but would like to get into a decent school so by the time i get out (i would be around 40) , i would still be competitive (assuming by then there could be a glut of doctors )

interests - for now primary care - also endocrinology/orthopedics are my interests (i know they are extremely competetive)

You really need to to start your own thread. This one is for OP.