Older (very) non-trad and MCAT problems - should I just hang it up?

[tluedeke]

I'm a nuclear engineer with 17 years experience, who over the last year has worked towards a career change into medicine. However, I'm pretty old even for a non-trad (46). My general stats:

B.S in Physics (1993), M.S. in Nuclear Engineering (1995), some Ph.D work in nuclear engineering (probably ~3.6 GPA overall)
GPA (since returning to classes): 3.95
Classes retaken: Intro biology. Organic Chemistry, Human Physiology
Classes being taken: Intro biochemistry, organic chemistry (2nd quarter)

Looks good, but the MCAT is chewing me up. I take it tomorrow (1/8/2015), but based upon practice tests, I know I'm in big trouble (top practice score = 28). I was an undergraduate physics major, but have not looked at it in 25+ years. Ditto on inorganic chemistry. I had planned to skip those classes (they require an extremely time-consuming - and in my opinion worthless, lab section that makes it nearly impossible to juggle a full-time job, a half-course load, and MCAT prep). I've patched up a lot of areas with independent study, but the MCAT tests such an enormous range of topics, it has not been possible to cover everything. For example, over Christmas I ran into acid-base chemistry and proton NMR. Both are time-consuming to (re)learn, and sucked up a good week or two of my time.

So the point is, I'm routinely scoring in the 25-28 range, with an occasional lower score, for three reasons: (1) I have not gone through organic reaction mechanisms yet, and it gets tested heavily in the biological sciences section, (2) the physics and chemistry topics are so broad, that I keep getting hit in areas I've not gone back over (e.g. electrochemistry, periodic motion). This keeps knocking my physical and biological science scores down into the 7-9 range (verbal is usually 9-11 range).

I'm boiling with frustration, because I don't have that much trouble on the MCAT with the material I'm familiar with. I have thought about simply retaking next year, but the new MCAT throws up even more mountains in my way (psychology, sociology, more complex cross-discipline problems). I know for a fact I can't work, patch up chemistry and physics, take biochem and orgo while holding a 4,0 GPA, then on top of that screw around with trying to memorize historical schools of psychology thought or crap like that. Too much.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

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[tluedeke]

I'm a nuclear engineer with 17 years experience, who over the last year has worked towards a career change into medicine. However, I'm pretty old even for a non-trad (46). My general stats:

B.S in Physics (1993), M.S. in Nuclear Engineering (1995), some Ph.D work in nuclear engineering (good grades, but not perfect)
GPA (since returning to classes): 3.95
Classes retaken: Intro biology. Organic Chemistry, Human Physiology
Classes being taken: Intro biochemistry, organic chemistry (2nd quarter)

Looks good, but the MCAT is chewing me up. I take it tomorrow (1/8/2015), but based upon practice tests, I know I'm in big trouble (top practice score = 28). I was an undergraduate physics major, but have not looked at it in 25+ years. Ditto on inorganic chemistry. I had planned to skip those classes (they require an extremely time-consuming - and in my opinion worthless, lab section that is nearly impossible to juggle a full-time job, a half-course load, and MCAT prep). I've patched up a lot of areas with independent study, but the MCAT tests such an enormous range of topics, it has not been possible to cover everything. For example, over Christmas I ran into acid-base chemistry and proton NMR. Both are time-consuming to (re)learn, and sucked up a good week or two of my time.

So the point is, I'm routinely scoring in the 25-28 range, with an occasional lower score, for three reasons: (1) I have not gone through organic reaction mechanisms yet, and it gets tested heavily in the biological sciences section, (2) The physics and chemistry topics are so broad, that I keep getting hit in areas I've not gone back over (e.g. electrochemistry, periodic motion). This keeps knocking my physical and biological science scores down into the 7-9 range (verbal is usually 9-11 range).

I'm boiling with frustration, because I don't have that much trouble on the MCAT with the material I'm familiar with. I have thought about simply retaking next year, but the new MCAT throws up even more mountains in my way (psychology, sociology, more complex cross-discipline problems). I know for a fact I can't work, patch up chemistry and physics, take biochem and orgo, then on top of that screw around with trying to memorize historical schools of psychology thought or crap like that. Too much.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

By the way, I understand why the MCAT changed, and what the AAMC is trying to accomplish. However, from my perspective, they may actually cause more older non-trads and career changers like myself to simply give up the prospect of becoming a physician, just because the scope of the MCAT has become so onerous, and success on it has become far, far more difficult without taking a lot of classes over again. And I would also assert that it removes a potentially talented pool of medical students who might choose primary care (esp. the advantage of a short residency for physicians with a shorter career window).

 

[Prettywoman0172]

I'm an older nontrad, too who is having some trouble with the MCAT. I think my short comings are due to the fact that I only allowed for 3weeks of study/preparation, and it simply was not enough. My scores on practice tests are similar to yours. I am taking the test on Saturday. I am already planning on having to retake the MCAT in April/May. I have a strong social science background but Ill have to add biochemistry at UNECOM onto a 20 credit course-load this spring.

Its not easy. Good luck to you.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I'm a nuclear engineer with 17 years experience, who over the last year has worked towards a career change into medicine. However, I'm pretty old even for a non-trad (46). My general stats:

B.S in Physics (1993), M.S. in Nuclear Engineering (1995), some Ph.D work in nuclear engineering (probably ~3.6 GPA overall)
GPA (since returning to classes): 3.95
Classes retaken: Intro biology. Organic Chemistry, Human Physiology
Classes being taken: Intro biochemistry, organic chemistry (2nd quarter)

Looks good, but the MCAT is chewing me up. I take it tomorrow (1/8/2015), but based upon practice tests, I know I'm in big trouble (top practice score = 28). I was an undergraduate physics major, but have not looked at it in 25+ years. Ditto on inorganic chemistry. I had planned to skip those classes (they require an extremely time-consuming - and in my opinion worthless, lab section that makes it nearly impossible to juggle a full-time job, a half-course load, and MCAT prep). I've patched up a lot of areas with independent study, but the MCAT tests such an enormous range of topics, it has not been possible to cover everything. For example, over Christmas I ran into acid-base chemistry and proton NMR. Both are time-consuming to (re)learn, and sucked up a good week or two of my time.

So the point is, I'm routinely scoring in the 25-28 range, with an occasional lower score, for three reasons: (1) I have not gone through organic reaction mechanisms yet, and it gets tested heavily in the biological sciences section, (2) the physics and chemistry topics are so broad, that I keep getting hit in areas I've not gone back over (e.g. electrochemistry, periodic motion). This keeps knocking my physical and biological science scores down into the 7-9 range (verbal is usually 9-11 range).

I'm boiling with frustration, because I don't have that much trouble on the MCAT with the material I'm familiar with. I have thought about simply retaking next year, but the new MCAT throws up even more mountains in my way (psychology, sociology, more complex cross-discipline problems). I know for a fact I can't work, patch up chemistry and physics, take biochem and orgo while holding a 4,0 GPA, then on top of that screw around with trying to memorize historical schools of psychology thought or crap like that. Too much.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Reschedule the test when you are ready. Maybe you can find some CC courses that don't require labs as a refresher. You will also have OrgChem 2 done. Taking the MCAT before you are ready isn't good.

 

[mspeedwagon]

A 25-28 will certainly get you into a DO school. If you're comfortable with that you're all set. The 28 may get you into your state MD program and some lower tier MD schools.

Based on this application cycle, I can tell you a score in the 25-28 range is not a deal breaker. I have interviews at both MD and DO schools with a score in the middle of the range. Good luck!

Edit: I started sub-20 and ended up w/ a score in the higer 20s. If you are struggling to get beyond the 20-24 mark, here is what I recommend: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/for-non-trads-struggling-with-the-mcat.1084311/.

 

[oldanddone]

this thread has not only one but two people who can avoid making a very bad decision in the next few days. wow. makes me nervous, and more proscriptive and forceful in the rhetoric.DONT JUMP! DONT JUMP!!!111!! kinda vibe.

DO NOT take the MCAT unless your practice scores are where you want them. I don't think the adcoms look favoourably at all on repeat marks. some DO, sure, but if you can avoid having another sticky point in the application (along with age, along with whatever else..), avoid it, and make sure there is a nice strong first MCAT score.

DO prepare well, and if you have a good financial buffer, spend money in order for this to happen...with an exam prep course, etc. On the topic of finances, be prepared to lose money by not doing an exam you are signed up for if you are not ready.

Trying to Help See New Format as Not Insurmountable:
The new inclusion of materials will likely not be all that onerous, once there is a sense of the scope and depth that is tested on the MCAT so that prep companies and study materials can gear themselves to a 'crash course'. I say this because I did the Arts (to a graduate level) before introducing myself to the sciences (and nearly getting left for roadkill by the intro...since then i did get scraped of the road, and went on to handle med). Arts can be very straightforward...a few things to remember. med school is like that...no longer tackling with sciences, but having a surface scope and depth, but just tonnes of it coming at you from a firehose. so the skills for studying for new mcat would be ultimately very transferable.

Caveat: What About Now that This Advice May Not Be Useful For:
I'm not sure when the last MCAT is that is in the old format ( which I think is the new format since I took it back in 2005ish...I don't think there's a writing section anymore, for instance?) So I don't know if you are pressured to do the test Now because waiting means needing to wait for a while to prep for the new material, or wait a few rounds while exam prep companies figure out what is on the new mcat and teach to it or other kinds of things that might delay next step for quite a bit...that kind of thing.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I want to address poster above said by saying this. If you are happy going to a medical school (MD or DO) and are scoring in the 25-30 range, I see no reason to tackle the new MCAT. Take the MCAT, get into med school and don't look back.

The last administration of the current MCAT is in January. The new MCAT is not only longer, but includes a lot more material (there hasn't been a writing section in yrs). Based on having taken a section of the new MCAT, I don't know why you would voluntarily put yourself through it if you have a score good enough to get your into med school on this version. That said, if you aren't scoring above a 24, be at peace with the fact you need more time to prep and are going to have to take the new version.

 

[oldanddone]

tluedeke specifically:

how come you are taking orgo? did you not get an orgo in your first degrees?

are you following a prep course or are you studying independently? i wonder if you are going too indepth with independent study, that could be made a lot easier with materials designed to 'brush up'

if you don't have the sciences where you want them, i suggest not taking the exam even though it is science-focused still.

perhaps if you follow some prep materials, the length of study will go down, and you will find more time to study the 'historical theories of psychology' and whatnot. those are *much* easier to integrate (hopefully this is not just my perspective having been better suited to the arts than sciences) - just memory...not even recall memory...pick it out of a multiple-choice line-up memory.

the first two years of med I think there will still be benefit from doing the coursework in orgo/biochem/physio/anatomy/etc if you can. it's hard to take in all that info, even at a surface level, if it's the first time exposed. you won't need coursework in psych/anthro/soc to help you get by during med school (in my opinion, unfortunately). but learning them quick and dirty in prep materials is definitely a skill you'll use in med school.

i'm not sure where your scores stand for the schools you want to apply to. there used to be that admissions booklet with all the schools and stats on each. however, if you are not near where you need to be, make sure you are. have an mcat that can show you will do well in med, and if you feel you are scoring that now, then great.

whatever you do, all the best!

 

[oldanddone]

I want to address poster above said by saying this. If you are happy going to a medical school (MD or DO) and are scoring in the 25-30 range, I see no reason to tackle the new MCAT. Take the MCAT, get into med school and don't look back.

The last administration of the current MCAT is in January. The new MCAT is not only longer, but includes a lot more material (there hasn't been a writing section in yrs). Based on having taken a section of the new MCAT, I don't know why you would voluntarily put yourself through it if you have a score good enough to get your into med school on this version. That said, if you aren't scoring above a 24, be at peace with the fact you need more time to prep and are going to have to take the new version.

yes, this i am in agreement with this if the score matches what the schools need. as a non-trad, however, i tend to err on trying to do even better...because the non-trad can sometimes raise a flag around whether a person will manage in the firehose academics of med. especially if they have not been in school full-time recently. even if they have been holding down a job and going part-time. i'd say aim 3-4 points above what you'd think a trad would need to get into the school (but that margin was not determined with any access to adcom information that might back up why or how much)

in this conversation, i know that if the mcat had switched to this when i was taking it, i would have had a big advantage. i did well anyways because i sweated for it. but i was an arts student, in areas of psych/soc/anthro...i would have been very advantaged by that switch. knowing how hard it was for my head to get into sciences, i appreciate it's not a cakewalk to switch over to those materials. a prep course just does not equal indepth of an undergrad. when i got to med, the folks with human science undergrads had the massive advantage...i'm not sure if people realized how much more difficult it was without the same extra courses in physio/anatomy/etc. so i get it, that it's a lot of material, especially if not what a person has studied in depth before.

 

[QofQuimica]

As others have said, if you're not ready, postpone the test. The MCAT was eight hours long on a scantron when I took it, and we hand wrote two essays for an hour. It didn't kill me. It won't kill any of you either. Don't blow off the MCAT because you're looking for easy short cuts. I can tell you from experience that acing the MCAT will open a lot of doors for you if you can manage it. And the medical boards make the MCAT look like child's play anyway, both in terms of the time required to prep/take them, and the difficulty of the exams.

On a general philosophical level, this isn't a training path for half-hearted dabblers. So if medicine is what you truly want, then make up your mind now to do what it takes to get yourself there, which includes preparing for and taking a lot of long, hard, expensive standardized tests. And actually prepare.

 

[Gurby]

You've been working full-time for 17 years... Do you have the finances to just quit and focus on making this work? If money is tight, you could continue working while taking psych/soc/etc, and quit a few months before the test to really buckle down studying.

 

[Aloft085]

I'm a nuclear engineer with 17 years experience, who over the last year has worked towards a career change into medicine. However, I'm pretty old even for a non-trad (46). My general stats:

B.S in Physics (1993), M.S. in Nuclear Engineering (1995), some Ph.D work in nuclear engineering (probably ~3.6 GPA overall)
GPA (since returning to classes): 3.95
Classes retaken: Intro biology. Organic Chemistry, Human Physiology
Classes being taken: Intro biochemistry, organic chemistry (2nd quarter)

Looks good, but the MCAT is chewing me up. I take it tomorrow (1/8/2015), but based upon practice tests, I know I'm in big trouble (top practice score = 28). I was an undergraduate physics major, but have not looked at it in 25+ years. Ditto on inorganic chemistry. I had planned to skip those classes (they require an extremely time-consuming - and in my opinion worthless, lab section that makes it nearly impossible to juggle a full-time job, a half-course load, and MCAT prep). I've patched up a lot of areas with independent study, but the MCAT tests such an enormous range of topics, it has not been possible to cover everything. For example, over Christmas I ran into acid-base chemistry and proton NMR. Both are time-consuming to (re)learn, and sucked up a good week or two of my time.

So the point is, I'm routinely scoring in the 25-28 range, with an occasional lower score, for three reasons: (1) I have not gone through organic reaction mechanisms yet, and it gets tested heavily in the biological sciences section, (2) the physics and chemistry topics are so broad, that I keep getting hit in areas I've not gone back over (e.g. electrochemistry, periodic motion). This keeps knocking my physical and biological science scores down into the 7-9 range (verbal is usually 9-11 range).

I'm boiling with frustration, because I don't have that much trouble on the MCAT with the material I'm familiar with. I have thought about simply retaking next year, but the new MCAT throws up even more mountains in my way (psychology, sociology, more complex cross-discipline problems). I know for a fact I can't work, patch up chemistry and physics, take biochem and orgo while holding a 4,0 GPA, then on top of that screw around with trying to memorize historical schools of psychology thought or crap like that. Too much.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Is your summer free? Most traditional students spend an entire summer studying for the MCAT. After your classes finish in May, you could dedicate most of May, all of June, and potentially all of July to MCAT study. You can take the test as late as August. I took mine in early August, scored highly, and obtained four MD interviews with borderline stats.

I know you're wary of psychology and sociology sections. But if you give yourself 2-3 months to study, don't you think you'll have ample time to learn this material? Hell, you could take entire courses in that time period.

I say WAIT. It's too risky for you to take the test with a top score of 28. If you get a 26 or lower, your chances of MD admission are slim. If you study for 3 months and get a 32? You could get into a potentially very good school. I say schedule a late July test, submit your AMCAS application two weeks before then (finish it months ahead of time to reduce stress), have your letters of recommendation done before the test, and do your secondaries as soon as they come in around Septmeber.

 

[jmc123]

Older non-trad here, too. My vote also is to wait and get on top of those high yield topics. A very low score for a physicist may raise big red flags. Take the new exam in May. Not only do you give yourself time to prepare, but if you flub it up, I think schools may be a little more forgiving as they're all trying to figure out what the hey a 124 or 503 means.

At this point, if you choose to opt out of this administration, I think you need to show up and cancel in person. Not sure how it works.

 

[Quik]

While it's late advice for you on this turn, hopefully this topic will have some value to someone (or yourself) taking the MCAT in the future. The breadth of material covered on the MCAT certainly is daunting, but it is approachable in a fairly short amount of time if you find an efficient way to tackle all of the subject matter. I think that is the key to success on the MCAT for any individual; finding what works best for themselves, not following to the letter advice given by another person who scored well, but may have an entirely different preferred style of learning.

For me, it took some experimentation, but I found highest efficiency in taking many practice exams while doing a thorough review by video instruction of all the concepts tested. For my own preferred method of learning, visual/lecture based instruction over reading text, all of the examkracker & kaplan books seemed to get me nowhere. Mid-way through my prep, I switched it up to coursesaver (chad's) videos, and found it a much better resource suited for my way of learning things. Things are explained with examples worked out, rather than just reading nap inducing text. You can get through all the lectures and quizzes in about 2-3 weeks at a slightly accelerated rate. Try it. Take notes of key points on notecards, do the quizzes right after, which is also a key to solidifying the learning and application of many of the more difficult chemistry, physics, and ochem concepts tested. After enough practice, they become a breeze. Again though, this works best for ME. You may be different.

Maybe an in-person prep course, maybe the prep books, or maybe video instruction would work best for you, only you truly know that, but each person have their own most effective method of learning, and one's MCAT prep is a very important time to find and focus on that style.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Don't take the MCAT until you are ready. Just because you have a physics degree does not mean you will do well on the physics section unless you have spent the interim time solving 100 level physics problems as a hobby. There aren't really any nuclear physics problems on MCAT, if I remember right, just basic kinematics, mechanics, optics, thermo, and E&M. You might get a problem that asks about Rutherford scattering for instance, but it is really a conservation of momentum question with window dressing. It would be pretty silly to take the MCAT without having finished O-chem. What is your hurry? As far as the "new MCAT" material such as sociology, psychology, etc., I would imagine that a review course or two could bring you up to speed.

The MCAT is an opportunity to distinguish yourself and your thinking skills, not just a hurdle to be overcome. Medical school and the shortest of residencies is a 7 year commitment, taking an extra year to prepare shouldn't change your life plans too much.

Best of luck,

Brick

Edit: Reviewing general chemistry is also important. If you have to take the test tomorrow, you can always void it.

 

[jl lin]

As others have said, if you're not ready, postpone the test. The MCAT was eight hours long on a scantron when I took it, and we hand wrote two essays for an hour. It didn't kill me. It won't kill any of you either. Don't blow off the MCAT because you're looking for easy short cuts. I can tell you from experience that acing the MCAT will open a lot of doors for you if you can manage it. And the medical boards make the MCAT look like child's play anyway, both in terms of the time required to prep/take them, and the difficulty of the exams.

On a general philosophical level, this isn't a training path for half-hearted dabblers. So if medicine is what you truly want, then make up your mind now to do what it takes to get yourself there, which includes preparing for and taking a lot of long, hard, expensive standardized tests. And actually prepare.

As usual, your advice is golden.

 

[DrMidlife]

tluedeke, check the attitude. If you think there's too much BS as a late premed, wait until you're in the med school grind. You'll drown in BS, daily.

You're making it sound like you have some say in how med school admissions work. You don't. Yes, you're in a hurry, I get it, high stakes game, but you're not going to see good results in applying to med school until you are over a bar you don't get to set. If successful, you'll be admissible on exactly the same terms as the 22 year old kiddoes.

Ignore this all you like, but my rejection pile from applying prematurely at age 42 says don't.

Best of luck to you.

 

[tluedeke]

Reschedule the test when you are ready. Maybe you can find some CC courses that don't require labs as a refresher. You will also have OrgChem 2 done. Taking the MCAT before you are ready isn't good.

Already flogged that angle. The organic chemistry class I'm taking offers the lab separate from the lecture. Every single other single physics or chemistry class of all universities and CC's in the area force the lab section upon you. The suggestions above regarding test prep are probably how I'm going to have to do it with regards to those subjects.

 

[jmc123]

Already flogged that angle. The organic chemistry class I'm taking offers the lab separate from the lecture. Every single other single physics or chemistry class of all universities and CC's in the area force the lab section upon you. The suggestions above regarding test prep are probably how I'm going to have to do it with regards to those subjects.

Try MITOpenCourseware. You get the MIT lectures for free...at least in Physics (what I watched). Also look at saylor.org or other MOOCs.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Already flogged that angle. The organic chemistry class I'm taking offers the lab separate from the lecture. Every single other single physics or chemistry class of all universities and CC's in the area force the lab section upon you. The suggestions above regarding test prep are probably how I'm going to have to do it with regards to those subjects.

Do any of the colleges allow people to audit the classes not for credit? You still get the refresher without the worry of making the grades otherwise.

 

[tluedeke]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It is a little too late right now to cancel (the MCAT exam is tomorrow at 8:00 am), so I'll just take a good whack at it and try to think through/reason/POE my way out of the unfamiliar stuff.

An MCAT retake in summer is almost certainly necessary. Fortunately, I'll have several things going for me: (1) A complete year of organic chemistry and a semester of biochemistry freshly taken, (2) more time to get those troublesome and forgotten chemistry and physics areas cleaned up (perhaps, as some have suggested above, via a test prep course), (3) a free few months in summer (other than work - but no classes) to focus intently on exam preparation, and (4) the (sour) experiences and lessons learned to provide me with a better approach..

I really do feel, based upon my MCAT performances on the topics I'm familiar with, that the potential is pretty high for a significant improvement in score, but I simply need time to work through it. I also stopped at the bookstore and looked at the Kaplan psychology/sociology prep book, and it seemed pretty easy stuff (not to mention more practical and less voluminous than I feared).

Many people asked "what is the hurry?". That should be completely obvious. I'm 46 years old, there is undoubtedly a serious admission bias against non-trads my age, and even though I've been careful with my money in my engineering career, my window as a professional in the medical field (to recoup medical school expenses) is quite short relative to the kiddies going in at 25 or whatever. And as is probably even more obvious, that fact is haunting me and causing me intense stress and worry. What I'd give to simply go take two years of pre-med and go in clean and fresh, like the 25-year old kiddies.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

In case you missed this in my earlier post, the AAMC gives test takers the option to void a test at the end of the MCAT. This might be a better option for you if you are uncomfortable with entire sections of the test. Yes, you can re-take the test, but at many medical schools, all attempts are taken into the calculus. If you are not comfortable with your current preparation, gambling and submitting would be unwise, in the big picture.

In your case, yes, you could very likely get a significantly better score by taking time to prepare.

Please understand that I am not trying to be discouraging, but you should be aware of your options.

Also, at 47, it may be difficult to recoup the cost of attending medical school, particularly if there is significant opportunity cost as there may be in your case as an established professional. This of course depends on your target age for retirement. If this is causing you intense stress and worry, for a more rapid ROI, you might consider becoming a PA.

If indeed medicine is what you want, you are going to have to resolve your stress and worry regarding being older than your peers. You will be an older medical student, an older resident, and an older junior attending, little will change in this regard throughout the training process.

Medicine is fun and interesting, but it is a commitment of time, energy, and money. It really isn't something that should be entered into lightly.

Again, I am not trying to be discouraging, I'm a non trad myself. Something I observed in my non trad peers in medical school is that several of the 40+ cohort required extra time to complete medical school for personal issues, usually related to raising their families, disproportionately more than the traditional cohort. This incurs more debt and takes more time. Residency is less flexible, although there are a few that include childcare as a benefit (not many).

The process of taking time to make sure that you understand the undertaking of a medical education and training is something that adcoms are looking for anyway. They don't want you to drop out of medical school, and if you leave as a resident, it really burns the others, since they have to cover your workload.

Just some observations. Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do.

 

[oldanddone]

it's actually not too late to cancel. you need to read the policy on what it means to cancel the day of.
a repeat is a bad mark against you, if you are serious about applications.
i'm not sure what mark you want on the mcat based on application stats.
you're already talking about repeating in the summer. that should be your first test that counts, if you think you'll be having to do it anyways.
talking about 'it's too late to cancel' makes me wonder if you're sabotaging yourself. if you have somebody you really trust, i'd suggest talking to them one-on-one this evening and truly hashing this out.

 

[Goro]

Do NOT take a career-deciding high stakes exam if you are not ready.

A 25-28 score is OK for DO schools, but pretty much lethal for MD schools.

I'm a nuclear engineer with 17 years experience, who over the last year has worked towards a career change into medicine. However, I'm pretty old even for a non-trad (46). My general stats:

B.S in Physics (1993), M.S. in Nuclear Engineering (1995), some Ph.D work in nuclear engineering (probably ~3.6 GPA overall)
GPA (since returning to classes): 3.95
Classes retaken: Intro biology. Organic Chemistry, Human Physiology
Classes being taken: Intro biochemistry, organic chemistry (2nd quarter)

Looks good, but the MCAT is chewing me up. I take it tomorrow (1/8/2015), but based upon practice tests, I know I'm in big trouble (top practice score = 28). I was an undergraduate physics major, but have not looked at it in 25+ years. Ditto on inorganic chemistry. I had planned to skip those classes (they require an extremely time-consuming - and in my opinion worthless, lab section that makes it nearly impossible to juggle a full-time job, a half-course load, and MCAT prep). I've patched up a lot of areas with independent study, but the MCAT tests such an enormous range of topics, it has not been possible to cover everything. For example, over Christmas I ran into acid-base chemistry and proton NMR. Both are time-consuming to (re)learn, and sucked up a good week or two of my time.

So the point is, I'm routinely scoring in the 25-28 range, with an occasional lower score, for three reasons: (1) I have not gone through organic reaction mechanisms yet, and it gets tested heavily in the biological sciences section, (2) the physics and chemistry topics are so broad, that I keep getting hit in areas I've not gone back over (e.g. electrochemistry, periodic motion). This keeps knocking my physical and biological science scores down into the 7-9 range (verbal is usually 9-11 range).

I'm boiling with frustration, because I don't have that much trouble on the MCAT with the material I'm familiar with. I have thought about simply retaking next year, but the new MCAT throws up even more mountains in my way (psychology, sociology, more complex cross-discipline problems). I know for a fact I can't work, patch up chemistry and physics, take biochem and orgo while holding a 4,0 GPA, then on top of that screw around with trying to memorize historical schools of psychology thought or crap like that. Too much.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It is a little too late right now to cancel (the MCAT exam is tomorrow at 8:00 am), so I'll just take a good whack at it and try to think through/reason/POE my way out of the unfamiliar stuff.

An MCAT retake in summer is almost certainly necessary. Fortunately, I'll have several things going for me: (1) A complete year of organic chemistry and a semester of biochemistry freshly taken, (2) more time to get those troublesome and forgotten chemistry and physics areas cleaned up (perhaps, as some have suggested above, via a test prep course), (3) a free few months in summer (other than work - but no classes) to focus intently on exam preparation, and (4) the (sour) experiences and lessons learned to provide me with a better approach..

I really do feel, based upon my MCAT performances on the topics I'm familiar with, that the potential is pretty high for a significant improvement in score, but I simply need time to work through it. I also stopped at the bookstore and looked at the Kaplan psychology/sociology prep book, and it seemed pretty easy stuff (not to mention more practical and less voluminous than I feared).

Many people asked "what is the hurry?". That should be completely obvious. I'm 46 years old, there is undoubtedly a serious admission bias against non-trads my age, and even though I've been careful with my money in my engineering career, my window as a professional in the medical field (to recoup medical school expenses) is quite short relative to the kiddies going in at 25 or whatever. And as is probably even more obvious, that fact is haunting me and causing me intense stress and worry. What I'd give to simply go take two years of pre-med and go in clean and fresh, like the 25-year old kiddies.

Dude, you could go DO and become a physician. You're totally within the realm of competitiveness.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Do NOT take this exam until you are consistently scoring where you want to be scoring for the schools you want to apply to.

 

[oldanddone]

prettywoman0172,

i've seen which posts you have 'liked'. i'm hoping that this means you are taking to heart what has been said in a serious consideration of your exam on saturday and whether to postpone. mcat is an indicator of the ability to complete a med programme. there is investment in each med student and at state schools (where there is lower tuition) part of the cost of being a student is paid by the gov't. nobody wants to take on a 'bad debt' and so those scores are looked at carefully. failing the first time does not look good for that predictor of being able to get through the programme smoothly. a great, high score can also offset lots of other sorts of things in your application. aim to do the absolute, prepared, best you can do


edited to add: i'm not sure the particulars of your case though...you are already in a curriculum at a DO school? at any rate, whatever the particulars, know them and make sure you don't compromise whatever arrangement you might have like needing a certain minimum score etc.

 

[Aloft085]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. It is a little too late right now to cancel (the MCAT exam is tomorrow at 8:00 am), so I'll just take a good whack at it and try to think through/reason/POE my way out of the unfamiliar stuff.

An MCAT retake in summer is almost certainly necessary. Fortunately, I'll have several things going for me: (1) A complete year of organic chemistry and a semester of biochemistry freshly taken, (2) more time to get those troublesome and forgotten chemistry and physics areas cleaned up (perhaps, as some have suggested above, via a test prep course), (3) a free few months in summer (other than work - but no classes) to focus intently on exam preparation, and (4) the (sour) experiences and lessons learned to provide me with a better approach..

I really do feel, based upon my MCAT performances on the topics I'm familiar with, that the potential is pretty high for a significant improvement in score, but I simply need time to work through it. I also stopped at the bookstore and looked at the Kaplan psychology/sociology prep book, and it seemed pretty easy stuff (not to mention more practical and less voluminous than I feared).

Many people asked "what is the hurry?". That should be completely obvious. I'm 46 years old, there is undoubtedly a serious admission bias against non-trads my age, and even though I've been careful with my money in my engineering career, my window as a professional in the medical field (to recoup medical school expenses) is quite short relative to the kiddies going in at 25 or whatever. And as is probably even more obvious, that fact is haunting me and causing me intense stress and worry. What I'd give to simply go take two years of pre-med and go in clean and fresh, like the 25-year old kiddies.

Dude, just void the test. Don't have it graded if you're expecting a low score. That low score will still count against you, even after you do better later on. There's no exact science to it, but I would expect most schools to roughly average your high and low scores together to get a good estimate of who you are. It's like your GPA, those old F's don't go away if you retake the class. There's an option at the end of the test to void. Just do it, or cancel on arrival. Don't roll the dice on your future.

 

[Aloft085]

Dude, you could go DO and become a physician. You're totally within the realm of competitiveness.

He could also just take the test in the summer and then apply for both DO and MD schools. Taking it now doesn't get him into school any earlier.

 

[tluedeke]

I think, based upon y'alls feedback in this thread, and looking at other SDN discussions regarding the pros and cons of voiding versus scoring a low MCAT, that I'm going to simply take it and void unless I really feel I did well on it (it is too late to cancel now). Given the other issues I face as a much older non-trad, the last thing I want on my medical school application is a 50th percentile MCAT score (even if I improve it later). Yes, I've gotten as high as 28 on the practice exams, but also as low as 24 (where I got hit really, really hard on organic chemistry mechanisms and portions of rusty chemistry/physics).

As far as I can tell, there is no downside to voiding and retaking (other than wasting a whole lot of money), and a significant downside to scoring a poor MCAT and retaking (i.e. another black mark for me in the admissions process). I wasn't sure that if I voided, that the medical schools would see that and hold it against me, but apparently that is not true.

My verbal scores are OK (~11 on average). But physical and biological sciences are 7-9, completely due to (1) not having ever seen the material (e.g. just starting organic chem mechanisms this quarter), or not having had time to go back and relearn/practice topics I've not seen in 25+ years (e.g. acid-base or electrochemistry, periodic motion). The potential upside on improving the PS and BS scores is pretty large.

I don't mind accepting a poor score that reflects my shortcomings, but don't feel like I should accept a poor score because I'm rushing into and taking the test prematurely.

Thanks for your help - you guys are fantastic!

- Tom

 

[oldanddone]

I think, based upon y'alls feedback in this thread, and looking at other SDN discussions regarding the pros and cons of voiding versus scoring a low MCAT, that I'm going to simply take it and void unless I really feel I did well on it (it is too late to cancel now). Given the other issues I face as a much older non-trad, the last thing I want on my medical school application is a 50th percentile MCAT score (even if I improve it later). Yes, I've gotten as high as 28 on the practice exams, but also as low as 24 (where I got hit really, really hard on organic chemistry mechanisms and portions of rusty chemistry/physics).

As far as I can tell, there is no downside to voiding and retaking (other than wasting a whole lot of money), and a significant downside to scoring a poor MCAT and retaking (i.e. another black mark for me in the admissions process). I wasn't sure that if I voided, that the medical schools would see that and hold it against me, but apparently that is not true.

My verbal scores are OK (~11 on average). But physical and biological sciences are 7-9, completely due to (1) not having ever seen the material (e.g. just starting organic chem mechanisms this quarter), or not having had time to go back and relearn/practice topics I've not seen in 25+ years (e.g. acid-base or electrochemistry, periodic motion). The potential upside on improving the PS and BS scores is pretty large.

I don't mind accepting a poor score that reflects my shortcomings, but don't feel like I should accept a poor score because I'm rushing into and taking the test prematurely.

Thanks for your help - you guys are fantastic!

WHEW. btw

- if i can be preachy once more, resist the urge to break anonymity on public forums (you will still just be tluedeke to me i've even taken your name out of my quote and if that is your last name i suggest making a new handle to go by...)
- in the old way of grading, bs - ps - vb - writing, the vb of 11 would really really help you stand out, but with the assumption that there's no red flags in the bs - ps. not sure what will happen re: the verbal score in the new way of scoring. i know a lot of schools looked at the verbal score specifically. lots of people who could get awesome scores on the sciences couldn't get a good verbal for the life of them. i hope that translates well in the way the new test is scored, because i know a lot of schools will look for its equivalent in score break-downs.
- 'intro to soc' and 'intro to psych' are all things that follow fairly standard curricula as well. there are sort of 'coles notes' versions of these things, if you find the reviews geared to mcat need just a *little* more fleshing out. a university bookstore would be able to help you with finding something. or i suppose amazon. or i suppose some kind of course notes that might be out there floating in the interweeb.
- all the very very best. may this journey bring joy to you in the challenge, with a good process and a good outcome.
-p.s. if you chose to submit, please don't tell me until/unless such time as there's a good score!!!!

 

[oldanddone]

also i think you mentioned something about choosing science courses that don't have labs. if these are pre-reqs that you are picking up, make certain that the school is ok with a course without a lab...i remember some schools requiring that the course have a lab component.

 

[skeptastic]

I know that this is major thread resurrection, but I somehow stumbled upon one of the OP's more recent threads, which eventually led me to read through some of his other threads/posts.

I will say, each post was very eye-opening. You can learn a lot from others' mistakes. I'm not trying to be funny or insulting at all when I say, I really appreciate the fact that these posts come from a late-40's non-trad. I've got some superb examples of what not to do on my path to medical school application.

Seriously, if anyone is frustrated with or doubting the process, wondering if they are too old, and so forth, read through the OP's post history. Or, just follow the wise words of @DrMidlife and "check the attitude." That attitude you speak of was present in almost every post of the OP's.