Online Pharm. D. at Creighton University

[lord999]

This topic has been the source of a major debate within pharmacy, the idea of a completely electronic Pharm. D. This is not a promotion for BS to Pharm. D., this is the entire entry education. Creighton is the first univerisity to attempt this (website: http://pharmacy.creighton.edu/spahp/non_traditional/rx/async_overview.asp) and because they are now fully accredited for that program, other universities are soon to follow. Anyone have any thoughts?

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[LVPharm]

Yes, I had a conversation about this with someone at school several months ago. I smell the NACDS...you just know that they would love to see more of these programs being developed in order to "churn out" more pharmacists. This is supposed to be "progress", but these students are being short-changed, in a way. Part of the educational experience in any professional program deals with communication skills, and I don't see that happening in these types of programs...no presentations, group activities, counseling scenarios, etc. No face-to-face interactions with professors and classmates. How will they be prepared for their experiential rotations by studying at a computer? As far as I know, they only show up on campus for their assessments.

The very idea of total distance learning for an entry level PharmD cannot be good for the profession.

 

[dgroulx]

I will be the 2nd class of UF's distance learning students. I still have to go to campus for group projects, labs, practicums, exams, etc. The first year, I'll be expected to be on campus 2-3 times per week. The only distance learning part is the lectures. I chose this program, because I'd rather watch lectures on streaming video and download handouts & overheads, than sit in a lecture hall. Also, it will be a small group of only 50 students, instead of the 130 on the main campus. It's easier to get to know people in a smaller group.

I suppose it isn't true distance learning, because they had to create satellite campuses, which have a small staff. I'm not sure how you could do labs online. You can just apply theory to a lab. You need to be hands on. Are you saying that Creighton is doing everything online?

 

[Modnar]

It sounds as though Creighton's program is similar to what dgroulx described - lectures are distance learning, labs require face time. I suppose a program like this could work for some students, but I couldn't imagine getting a PharmD over the 'net. One of my favorite things about being in school was getting to interact with other students, and that would be at a minimum in this program.

 

[dgroulx]

Originally posted by Modnar
One of my favorite things about being in school was getting to interact with other students, and that would be at a minimum in this program.

When I talked with the distance learning students, they seemed to be a close-knit group. They all socialized. Got together to watch TV shows, watch Gator football, etc. They have pot luck dinners with everyone's family invited. Since I came from a private school with less than 1,000 students on campus, this was more to my liking. I couldn't see myself in a big lecture hall, when I was used to 9-15 students in each class.

 

[Modnar]

Originally posted by dgroulx
I couldn't see myself in a big lecture hall, when I was used to 9-15 students in each class.

You know, I've never understood why big lecture classes freak people out so much. I loved those classes! The teachers never got off onto tangents or got a week behind on the syllabus (both of which happened to me in smaller classes). They would get stuff done efficiently.

You can make a large class seem smaller by sitting in the front row. You can't make a small class seem bigger.

 

[badphish]

This topic has been the source of a major debate within pharmacy, the idea of a completely electronic Pharm. D. This is not a promotion for BS to Pharm. D., this is the entire entry education. Creighton is the first univerisity to attempt this (website: http://pharmacy.creighton.edu/spahp/non_traditional/rx/async_overview.asp) and because they are now fully accredited for that program, other universities are soon to follow. Anyone have any thoughts?

as a working adult already on a second career this seems perfect to me.

i already have communication skills etc. "life experience" im thinking whatever gets me to my goal. pharmacist. i have neither the time nor the finances to sit in a classroom all day every day. i gots 2 pay the bills.

i think some of us need to open our minds about what is education. and what do we really need to learn a new skill set.

i get all the interpersonal comm i can stand already.

 

[blotterspotter]

i think some of us need to open our minds about what is education. and what do we really need to learn a new skill set.

In theory I think you're right. There is nothing wrong with obtaining a degree over the internet if you can obtain the same skills as those that actually sit in the classroom. The problem is the public perception of obtaining a degree online. I think that most people NOW don't realize the level of education pharmacists' receive. They think it's just another technical course at a technical school. I think an online education will put it a step below. Until the minds of the masses are changed, it's very dangerous for a profession that doesn't have a great face.

I'm not surprised the chains seem to be corporate sponsors of sorts for the online degree. It's perfect, more workers for the assembly lines.

All in all, there still isn't a substitute for an education with total human interaction.

 

[sdn1977]

I'm an old school pharmacist, but have a child who attends a modern, progressive medical school, so I've been educated in what works & doesn't work with regard to developing personal professional interactions....which I agree is very important in our profession!

Most of the didactic material can be presented in many formats - some folks do well in a lecture hall, some don't - as long as you get it & can correlate it with clinical material, its all good. The crux of the curriculum is how they do this correlation. Clinical correlation requires both being where the medical situation is occuring (clinic, pharmacy, hospital, etc) but also the ability to interact face-to-face with senior pharmacists, physicians, patients & other ancillary staff.

If all that can be done - well...its just another way to learn!

 

[rxlynn]

This topic has been the source of a major debate within pharmacy, the idea of a completely electronic Pharm. D. This is not a promotion for BS to Pharm. D., this is the entire entry education. Creighton is the first univerisity to attempt this (website: http://pharmacy.creighton.edu/spahp/non_traditional/rx/async_overview.asp) and because they are now fully accredited for that program, other universities are soon to follow. Anyone have any thoughts?

Hi, I was accepted to Creighton's web-based program this year. There are a few points I'd like to make about the program. One is that generally I think that CU sees their web-based program as a way to reach students who are unable because of their personal circumstances to attend a traditional program. That is not to say that it is easier to get into - the vast majority of their web-based class already has a degree or degrees, and the class trends much older than a typical entering pharmacy school class. As such, they tend to have more work experience. GPA and PCAT are comparable to their campus students.

All the class work is the same as the campus students; lab work is done in a condensed format over a 10-14 day period every summer in Omaha. When I interviewed for the program they had a current student talk to us. The assumption that the web-based students don't do group projects or have interaction with other students in the program is incorrect - they are required to do so, and they use e-mail, conferencing, instant messaging, etc. to accomplish that.

I totally agree that it doesn't make sense for everybody, but for some people it's a way to accomplish their goal of pharmacy school while still being able to meet their other obligations in life. Oh, and last year their web-based students had a higher NAPLEX pass rate than the campus-based, so I don't think the web-based folks are getting a deficient education.

 

[YO YO YO]

In theory I think you're right. There is nothing wrong with obtaining a degree over the internet if you can obtain the same skills as those that actually sit in the classroom. The problem is the public perception of obtaining a degree online. I think that most people NOW don't realize the level of education pharmacists' receive. They think it's just another technical course at a technical school. I think an online education will put it a step below. Until the minds of the masses are changed, it's very dangerous for a profession that doesn't have a great face.

I'm not surprised the chains seem to be corporate sponsors of sorts for the online degree. It's perfect, more workers for the assembly lines.

All in all, there still isn't a substitute for an education with total human interaction.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Would anyone want to have a physician who got an online MD degree?

PharmD's already suffer the stigmas that you mentioned; please let's not add salt to the wound.

Also, if a bunch of the universities decide to jump on the online bandwagon (I'm sure they will), we will see a decrease in the demand for pharmacists, which means after you pay off your enourmous 100K+ student loan payments, you will have to borrow five bucks to get a happy meal.

If you don't have the time to go to school for 3-5 years full-time, then find a new profession. I am not saying that there are no students capable of performing well at online universities, and frankly I don't care about their NAPLEX passing rates. The fact remains that this tarnishes the reputation of those of us who are committed enough to actually leave our places of residence, every business day, for 3-5 years, to attend lecture/lab.

These online students are selfishly feeding into a potential pandemic because it fits their convenient schedule. They are doing a disservice to the reputation of PharmD's everywhere. I hope it fails miserably!

Bring it on angry people, but it's my opinion. I can't lie. And to all the real PharmD candidates, your reputation is on the line. Speak out against this atrocity!! Don't hide behind a 'politically correct' veil and watch your hard work be mocked!

ACPE -- shame on you!!

And yes, I am Republican!!

 

[cytogal]

Hi, I was accepted to Creighton's web-based program this year. There are a few points I'd like to make about the program. One is that generally I think that CU sees their web-based program as a way to reach students who are unable because of their personal circumstances to attend a traditional program. That is not to say that it is easier to get into - the vast majority of their web-based class already has a degree or degrees, and the class trends much older than a typical entering pharmacy school class. As such, they tend to have more work experience. GPA and PCAT are comparable to their campus students.

All the class work is the same as the campus students; lab work is done in a condensed format over a 10-14 day period every summer in Omaha. When I interviewed for the program they had a current student talk to us. The assumption that the web-based students don't do group projects or have interaction with other students in the program is incorrect - they are required to do so, and they use e-mail, conferencing, instant messaging, etc. to accomplish that.

I totally agree that it doesn't make sense for everybody, but for some people it's a way to accomplish their goal of pharmacy school while still being able to meet their other obligations in life. Oh, and last year their web-based students had a higher NAPLEX pass rate than the campus-based, so I don't think the web-based folks are getting a deficient education.

Thank you rxlynn!! I totally agree. I attended an interview at Creighton on Apr 21 and was extremely impressed with their program. As a web-based student, you have access to everything the campus-based student does, which includes a virtual library! For me, I am unable to attend classes at a pharmacy school due to geographic location and inability to relocate. Creighton's web-based program gives me the opportunity to pursue my dream of becomming a pharmacist.

 

[YO YO YO]

Thank you rxlynn!! I totally agree. I attended an interview at Creighton on Apr 21 and was extremely impressed with their program. As a web-based student, you have access to everything the campus-based student does, which includes a virtual library! For me, I am unable to attend classes at a pharmacy school due to geographic location and inability to relocate. Creighton's web-based program gives me the opportunity to pursue my dream of becomming a pharmacist.

Now if you take virtual classes, and do your research at a virtual pharmacy, doesn't that make you a virtual pharmacist?

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

Now if you take virtual classes, and do your research at a virtual pharmacy, doesn't that make you a virtual pharmacist?

I interviewed at CU w/ cytogal. I had a lot of questions myself and respected the program so much more as my questions got answered. Here are the facts:

The campus based students at CU use the virtual library too. They don't go to the library either. (Who really goes to the library that much anymore anyway--it's all online at my university too.) The virtual library has even more publications than the actual library itself. If you actually go to the library, most of your research findings will be in the e-journals that for the most part, are only available online.

All labs are completed on the CU campus during the summer. 4th year students are still required to do their hands-on rotations, but they have the freedom to do them at any geographic location in the US.

Exams are taken at a proctored test assesment site.

You are not required to tell your future employer that you did a web based program. The diplomas look exactly the same as the students who did the campus based programs at the same university.

The actual lectures are audio recorded and same power point presentations are available to the students. They are now slowly getting into the Pod-casting thing now, where the lectures will be video recorded and made available to all students, both campus and online students. This is nice because if you didn't hear what a professor says, whether you are listening to audio or watching the video, just rewind. You can't beat that.

I go to a large university and this is essentially the same for me. My classes are large and you don't get the opportunity to ask the professors questions except by email. Most of us as students are busy with other commitments. When we do group work, we usually split it up, communicating by email and phone to put our project together. We usually don't even meet up in person for group projects.

As for the interpersonal communication experience, if you are not a strong interpersonal communicator, whether it is one on one, or group communication(e.g. speeches/presentations), then don't do an online program. If this is your only option, you must get your practice in other ways, such as working in retail pharmacy, and public health volunteering opportunities and such. The 4th year hands on rotations will help as well.

Online education is not going away. It is the future, and technology advances are making it easier. This program at CU has not even come close to failing. They are fully accredited and have produced working pharmacists. Being a pharmacist is truly about having expert knowledge on medications. It doesn't matter whether you got your knowledge by listening to lectures in person, over the web, or on your ipod/laptop--as long as you know your stuff, that is all that matters.

All students are given the same laptop, used for your classes, library stuff, and taking exams at the testing centers.

I really don't think the presence of web-based pharmacy programs are going to affect future salaries of pharmacists. The pharmacy profession is going through a transition in society right now. We are becoming better paid because we are taking on more responsibilities. Pharmacy is about being an expert on medication. The entire 4th year of pharmacy was added to give us experience on the changing world of pharmacy. As the pharmacy profession changes, eventually society will give us more respect. CU web-based students are still required to do their last year of 8 rotations, and are allowed to do so at their geographic locations if they like. CU has hired a person whose full time job is to help the students find rotation sites in their geographic location.

For those of you who cannot imagine life in pharmacy school without sitting next to your best friend in lecture, then don't apply- simple as that. I'm just saying that these programs are here to stay and are made equal.

 

[insipid1979]

We are becoming better paid because we are taking on more responsibilities.

Pharmacists are getting better paid because there is a shortage. It has nothing to do with taking on more responsibilities.

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

Pharmacists are getting better paid because there is a shortage. It has nothing to do with taking on more responsibilities.

That's definitely a factor too.

 

[insipid1979]

That's definitely a factor too.

No it isn't. Responsibility is never really a factor in how much a salary is. Look at paramedics and social workers and nurses. They aren't raking in a lot of money.

Nurses salaries have gone up because there is shortage of them also. Not because they have taken on more responsibility.

 

[RxRob]

Man that would save me a ton in childcare.

Anyway, since Wingate is a brand new pharmacy school, it is very high tech... completely paperless, quizzes taken online live etc.. All notes including powerpoint presentations are available online before the lecture even happens... I'm practically doing mine correspondence anyway given my attendance record.

As long as it's not run by Sally Struthers it's probably fine.

 

[YO YO YO]

You are not required to tell your future employer that you did a web based program. The diplomas look exactly the same as the students who did the campus based programs at the same university.
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That statement alone solidifies my point. This is exactly why the PharmD degree will decline in value. There should be something on their degree that says, "I got my degree online." I dont want people suspecting that my doctorate may have been earned online, because a few selfish people couldn't find the time to attend lecture. I want people to know I attented a real school. All of us real students made the financial sacrifices, took pay cuts, and/or left our jobs. Why should they be any different.

Online degrees have a negative societal connotation, whether you like it or not, even if you choose to deny it. I don't care about the remarkable quality of these online educational programs; I don't care about their exemplary NAPLEX passing rates; I don't care if an online student knows the mechanism of a reverse-transcriptase inhibitor better than a traditional student; and I don't care if they play flag football on sundays and cozy up to the fire after a turkey dinner on Sunday night. The very FACT that there are people out there earning their entire PharmD degree online disgraces the profession, and I will not support it wherever I go.

Once again...I don't care if their NAPLEX passing rate is 303.56%...the whole idea of getting such a "prestigious" degree online takes away from that prestige....you know it and I know it.

I would walk around the campuses of the offending universities with a picket sign, but I'm afraid that I have actual classes to attend.

These people are poisoning the system due to their inadequate life planning, and lack of regard for anyone else in the profession. You can bet that NACDS is behind this in an effort to reduce the amount they need to pay pharmacists in the long run. Simple supply and demand economics here. And of course people are gobbling it up.

Sure, competition is still pretty tight now while this program is still in its experimental phase. But you wait 5 to 10 years and see how the competition eases up. And then when you tell someone that you are a PharmD at your Country Club Sunday Brunch, don't be surprised if you hear a chuckle or two. Because if this catches on (I'm sure it will), anyone will be able to be a pharmacist.

Build it and they will come. And if they cant pass 'cause too many came, well then throw 'em a curve. It will happen. Look at the 1990's streamlining of drug approval procedures that resulted in the FDA Modernization Act of 1997. Money talks....ethics walks.

I can't believe people are so concerned about what others may think they are blind to these truths. We wouldn't want to offend anyone, would we? After all, your next job interview might be conducted by an online alumnus/a.

But you can't tell by looking at their degree.

 

[insipid1979]

All of us real students made the financial sacrifices, took pay cuts, and/or left our jobs. Why should they be any different.

I'm not going to comment on anything else you have said. But you obviously haven't looked at how much the tuition is for Creighton's online program.

 

[colt]

100k+ for online classes...whoa!

 

[Falokis]

Most online classes I have been around have out of control cheating because the tests were online. If you force people to take tests on campus and have labs on campus, that is much better. That still doesn't fix the main problem with online classes, though. My problem with online classes is it takes away what getting a degree really means. You use less than 15% of what you learned in college once your out in the real world. Anyone that has graduated and returned will agree. So, why do employers want degrees? It says "hey, I want this job so much I have paid for 4 years of school to learn crap I will almost never use. I have been though stavation. I have been memorizing things I can look up once I graduate. I have put my LIFE on hold to do all of this." The sacrafices and work are what show you want the job. Online degrees take away from both.

 

[RxRob]

Perspective is kind of funny. I mean how many grandparents hate the internet or feel it's not real research, or even the TV being a zero source of educational programming.

What does "what getting a degree REALLY means" mean? Just means historically it HAD to be that way. Now I go to a University like the rest of you so its really neither here nor there, but let me give you the other side.

Many people went into a different career that they've become disatisfied with or has languished. Many of them have families as well and are still able to achieve just as you are. And let's say they find a way to earn their doctorate or masters in a fashion that maximizes flex time basically because they have to.. this is what they're thinking about... how you have the feel of university grass under your feet, the beautiful architecture, how they'd love to have mommy and daddy send them somewhere to hide to tie their dogs to a tree and play acoustic guitar in the shade while watching the guys and girls playing frisbee, attending frat parties and having all night keggers or shut in study all-nighters and questioning their "chemistry" with someone attractive....

Let me tell you... these people doing it online probably despise all of us for how we're able to go about getting our education. You really should revisit why it means so much to be in a room with others verses watching it on screen. Fact is, what you're really tapping into is the smell, the feel, the chemistry of competition... in many ways it's the feel of a leatherbound book to a 90 year old. The whole debate is as useful as hating on a pdf file.

And anyway, this is NOT without precedent... you could also get an MBA for 15 years now this way and all sorts of master's degrees in a variety of fields. It's not going to hurt the field, and for GOD'S sake don't be jealous.

 

[BiOGoly]

I interviewed at CU w/ cytogal. I had a lot of questions myself and respected the program so much more as my questions got answered. Here are the facts:

The campus based students at CU use the virtual library too. They don't go to the library either. (Who really goes to the library that much anymore anyway--it's all online at my university too.) The virtual library has even more publications than the actual library itself. If you actually go to the library, most of your research findings will be in the e-journals that for the most part, are only available online.

All labs are completed on the CU campus during the summer. 4th year students are still required to do their hands-on rotations, but they have the freedom to do them at any geographic location in the US.

Exams are taken at a proctored test assesment site.

You are not required to tell your future employer that you did a web based program. The diplomas look exactly the same as the students who did the campus based programs at the same university.

The actual lectures are audio recorded and same power point presentations are available to the students. They are now slowly getting into the Pod-casting thing now, where the lectures will be video recorded and made available to all students, both campus and online students. This is nice because if you didn't hear what a professor says, whether you are listening to audio or watching the video, just rewind. You can't beat that.

I go to a large university and this is essentially the same for me. My classes are large and you don't get the opportunity to ask the professors questions except by email. Most of us as students are busy with other commitments. When we do group work, we usually split it up, communicating by email and phone to put our project together. We usually don't even meet up in person for group projects.

As for the interpersonal communication experience, if you are not a strong interpersonal communicator, whether it is one on one, or group communication(e.g. speeches/presentations), then don't do an online program. If this is your only option, you must get your practice in other ways, such as working in retail pharmacy, and public health volunteering opportunities and such. The 4th year hands on rotations will help as well.

Online education is not going away. It is the future, and technology advances are making it easier. This program at CU has not even come close to failing. They are fully accredited and have produced working pharmacists. Being a pharmacist is truly about having expert knowledge on medications. It doesn't matter whether you got your knowledge by listening to lectures in person, over the web, or on your ipod/laptop--as long as you know your stuff, that is all that matters.

All students are given the same laptop, used for your classes, library stuff, and taking exams at the testing centers.

I really don't think the presence of web-based pharmacy programs are going to affect future salaries of pharmacists. The pharmacy profession is going through a transition in society right now. We are becoming better paid because we are taking on more responsibilities. Pharmacy is about being an expert on medication. The entire 4th year of pharmacy was added to give us experience on the changing world of pharmacy. As the pharmacy profession changes, eventually society will give us more respect. CU web-based students are still required to do their last year of 8 rotations, and are allowed to do so at their geographic locations if they like. CU has hired a person whose full time job is to help the students find rotation sites in their geographic location.

For those of you who cannot imagine life in pharmacy school without sitting next to your best friend in lecture, then don't apply- simple as that. I'm just saying that these programs are here to stay and are made equal.

Ok. So...I wonder why online medical schools don't exist? If online education is "the future" as you put it, surely online medical schools should exist to meet the burgeoning demand for PCP's right? Oh wait, here's one The International University of Health Sciences located on the beautiful Caribbean island of St. Kitts. This is in fact the only online MD program google could find anywhere in the world and even it requires applicants to have "worked extensively in the healthcare industry".

I'm sorry, I don't look forward to a world where PharmD is among the degree offerings of Devry University and pharmacists are churned out like insurance coding specialists. If you really cared about the dignity and future of the profession you're entering, you wouldn't either...

 

[RxRob]

Just one more point:

We're all good people right?

The shortage of pharmacists is a SERIOUS problem... only the pharmacists don't want it fixed.

Guilty as charged... but conclusively selfish as hell. Let's not talk about it. Yay let's help people!

Rob

 

[insipid1979]

Just one more point:

We're all good people right?

The shortage of pharmacists is a SERIOUS problem... only the pharmacists don't want it fixed.

Guilty as charged... but conclusively selfish as hell. Let's not talk about it. Yay let's help people!

Rob

Yeah...why don't we just build 500 more pharmacy schools that way everyone can become a pharmacist no matter how unqualified or incapable they are. I like the way you think.

I also suggest building a ton of new medical schools so people can pay less for medical care...

What about law schools? We should lower the standards for that too and build more...

 

[RxRob]

You don't want any of this.

All pharmacy schools have standards and there are way more applicants meeting them than spots. Your perspective is based on barely being out of diapers. It is a necessary deduction that you believe all RPh's are a joke. The only thing that has changed is the population, there are more pharmacists now than ever which is certainly raising the bar to ridiculous levels, but the standards would still be higher than ever before.. including when pharmacists MADE the medicine they sell.

Again, good for us.

If you're in pharmacy school, congrats you are the best of the best... but there's still the rest of the best.

 

[insipid1979]

You don't want any of this.

All pharmacy schools have standards and there are way more applicants meeting them than spots. Your perspective is based on barely being out of diapers. It is a necessary deduction that you believe all RPh's are a joke. The only thing that has changed is the population, there are more pharmacists now than ever which is certainly raising the bar to ridiculous levels, but the standards would still be higher than ever before.. including when pharmacists MADE the medicine they sell.

Again, good for us.

First of all...try not to sound condescending in your posts.

Second...you agree that there should be standards right? So what are you talking about exactly? Medical schools have standards too...and more people are meeting them than spots...along with law school..dental school...optometry school...etc. etc.

When you are in a profession such as pharmacy and the ones I just listed...standards must be upheld and can't be lowered just because of a shortage. There is no room for mistakes in these professions and you can't just let anybody in who wants to get in. If that was possible then the profession has no point in requiring higher education...since it obviously doesn't required any standards of skills or knowledge (standards for people being capable of doing the job).

 

[RxRob]

First of all...try not to sound condescending in your posts.

Hilarious, thank you.

There is no shortage of lawyers, and any rumor of doctor shortages is similar to the claims of police shortages, not really rooted in reality. There ARE roughly 1/2 the number of pharmacists needed TODAY and expected to dimish in ratio to need.

Again, I intend to scream your point at the top of my lungs to congress given the chance...I'm just saying it works for us and there is room. Just playing devil's advocate. Pharmacy has existed as one of the most trusted and competent professions for a century and the current standards are an eyeblink in the time-line. No one's talking about pulling walmart cashier's behind the counter to counsel.

 

[insipid1979]

There is no shortage of lawyers, and any rumor of doctor shortages is similar to the claims of police shortages, not really rooted in reality. There ARE roughly 1/2 the number of pharmacists needed TODAY and expected to dimish in ratio to need.

Taken from a USA Today article:
The country needs to train 3,000 to 10,000 more physicians a year — up from the current 25,000 — to meet the growing medical needs of an aging, wealthy nation, the studies say. Because it takes 10 years to train a doctor, the nation will have a shortage of 85,000 to 200,000 doctors in 2020 unless action is taken soon.

You are right...there is no shortage...at least none based in reality

As for lawyers. There is a huge shortage of lawyers willing to represent poor defendents because of low pay in the US (this is also a problem in Australia). But again...this obviously is not based in reality

 

[YO YO YO]

Perspective is kind of funny. I mean how many grandparents hate the internet or feel it's not real research, or even the TV being a zero source of educational programming.

What does "what getting a degree REALLY means" mean? Just means historically it HAD to be that way. Now I go to a University like the rest of you so its really neither here nor there, but let me give you the other side.

Many people went into a different career that they've become disatisfied with or has languished. Many of them have families as well and are still able to achieve just as you are. And let's say they find a way to earn their doctorate or masters in a fashion that maximizes flex time basically because they have to.. this is what they're thinking about... how you have the feel of university grass under your feet, the beautiful architecture, how they'd love to have mommy and daddy send them somewhere to hide to tie their dogs to a tree and play acoustic guitar in the shade while watching the guys and girls playing frisbee, attending frat parties and having all night keggers or shut in study all-nighters and questioning their "chemistry" with someone attractive....

Let me tell you... these people doing it online probably despise all of us for how we're able to go about getting our education. You really should revisit why it means so much to be in a room with others verses watching it on screen. Fact is, what you're really tapping into is the smell, the feel, the chemistry of competition... in many ways it's the feel of a leatherbound book to a 90 year old. The whole debate is as useful as hating on a pdf file.

And anyway, this is NOT without precedent... you could also get an MBA for 15 years now this way and all sorts of master's degrees in a variety of fields. It's not going to hurt the field, and for GOD'S sake don't be jealous.

Yes, good point, and we all know how few MBAs are out there today.
In fact, I think MBAs come in third place on the list of things that everyone has. Second place is opinions.
MBAs used to have digntity

And of what exactly am I jealous? Apparently, online students and real students will both have the same education, so I couldn't be jealous of that. I must be jealous because I don't have the opportunity to strip a decent profession of its dignity. Yeah that's it.

Also, mommy and daddy aren't sending me anywhere; acoustic guitar makes me nauseous; and I haven't been to a "kegger" since undergrad.

Don't be so naive as to believe that this will not harm the profession. What holds Pharm Schools back from taking more students in many cases is classroom space. Doing it the online way, it will be feasible in the not-so-distant future for schools to double, triple, or even quadruple their enrollment, without having to build new facilities. It will be easy to schedule alternating weeks for the labs during summer. Guess how many pharmacists that makes....yes, a lot! Would you like me to post the Supply-Demand graph for you? I really do have one but the JPEG is too large to post.

You voted for John Kerry didn't you?

 

[YO YO YO]

Ok. So...I wonder why online medical schools don't exist? If online education is "the future" as you put it, surely online medical schools should exist to meet the burgeoning demand for PCP's right? Oh wait, here's one The International University of Health Sciences located on the beautiful Caribbean island of St. Kitts. This is in fact the only online MD program google could find anywhere in the world and even it requires applicants to have "worked extensively in the healthcare industry".

I'm sorry, I don't look forward to a world where PharmD is among the degree offerings of Devry University and pharmacists are churned out like insurance coding specialists. If you really cared about the dignity and future of the profession you're entering, you wouldn't either...

AMEN TO THAT!!

 

[YO YO YO]

I can see it now, during the commercial break on the Jerry Springer Show:
"Are you unemployed, underemployed? Do you wanna turn your life around? Well sign up to get your online PharmD Degree at http://www.EZPharmD.com."

Testimonials:
Chuck A from Alabama:
"I used to be a real zero. I used to hate my life. Now Im a real live licensed pharmacist and I dispense meds to your loved ones! Thanks EZ!"

Mary K from Indiana:
"I couldn't look myself in the mirror. I had no friends. Now I count by fives and I couldn't be happer! Thanks EZ PharmD!"

"YOU can DO it!! Just sign up today! If you sign up in the next 30 minutes we will give you ABSOLUTELY FREE a free mortar and pestle placemat! And if you don't graduate, keep the placemat as your FREE gift!"

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!!

 

[deuist]

Would anyone want to have a physician who got an online MD degree?

Actually, many medical students currently attend classes online. Universities are starting to video record (or at least audio tape) their lectures and then providing the material over the Internet. Attendance in class has drop since more students are watching lectures online. There are some people in my class that only come in on exam days. I call them the home-school med students.

They still are required to take the same tests as us and, much to the frustration of the professors, they routinely do better than the rest of the class. You can argue all you want to about standards, but these students are learning and are doing a better job than many others. They are no different than the people who skipped lecture in college and only studied from the textbook and friends' notes.

 

[YO YO YO]

Actually, many medical students currently attend classes online. Universities are starting to video record (or at least audio tape) their lectures and then providing the material over the Internet. Attendance in class has drop since more students are watching lectures online. There are some people in my class that only come in on exam days. I call them the home-school med students.

They still are required to take the same tests as us and, much to the frustration of the professors, they routinely do better than the rest of the class. You can argue all you want to about standards, but these students are learning and are doing a better job than many others. They are no different than the people who skipped lecture in college and only studied from the textbook and friends' notes.

Make sure to tell me where you set up your practice, so I know not to send my family there! Thanx

 

[deuist]

I also suggest building a ton of new medical schools so people can pay less for medical care...

What about law schools? We should lower the standards for that too and build more...

We are building new medical schools. From 2002-2009 at least ten new medical schools have or will have opened their doors to address the physician shortage. Unfortunately, I don't see a decline in the cost of health care.

As far as accreditation of law schools go, the standards already are pretty low. While the ABA refuses to recognize online JD programs, it will grant full accreditation to almost any brick and mortar school, no matter how dismal the pass rate is for the bar exam.

 

[RxRob]

Just going to do this one last time.

We all have a responsibility to be loyal and lobby for our profession, and do not disagree with any of the more exaggerated points you are making.

Really what I'm trying to accomplish here is for you to appreciate your ability to get your education the way you are able to, that the economy and technology has given us this kind of idle time for lofty pursuits. Smell the roses and remember this time in your life because few get to experience it.

I'm not exactly about to keel over or anything, but the difference now from when I was 20-ish is that I no longer believe that everyone is given the same start or is operating under the same set of circumstances. My classmates, practically ALL of them, leave school at noon wondering how they are going to spend the rest of their day. I go to work, oftentimes 50 hours a week, i have 3 kids and a wife. I do what you do with one blind eye and both hands tied behind my back. Just don't be so quick to judge or believe that everyone is making the identical sacrifice you feel you are making to spend your time at a university. My life is just as full as one of my professors, only with pharmacy school wedged in on top of it.

I took economics in lecture. I took psychology online. I don't believe that if those two were reversed my knowledge of either would be an iota different.

TO THE EXTENT that that is true of any given course enroute to obtaining the pharm degree and it remains practical, I see no harm in offering large parts of it in an online format. The way it is being done appears eclectic with the necessary amount of hands-on where it is needed. Obviously you cannot compound with MS Paint.

I don't think it would be possible to do medical school online with the level of diagnostic material they must learn, but modules on the endocrine system or 80% of the other things we go through they have already started this at University of Miami. I'm sure you've watched contemporary surgeories as well, you may notice something...umm unusual about them... like the fact they dont necessarily even need to be in the same room with the patient.

Your infomercial idea is really funny, I'm not quite going to any lengths to make my point, simply stating that I'm willing to posit that anyone maintaining a 3.4 or higher in a very heavy scientific regimen spanning disciplines from logic to memorization and proven understanding, plus scoring in the top third or so of a competitive test like the PCAT is worthy of a chance of being a good pharmacist, and there are way many more of those than spots.

And at the risk of looking like I'm making this up to be "in your face" about the John Kerry statement not being able to be more wrong, you can simply find I'm one of the most active and vociferous republicans EVER.
http://truereason.blogspot.com for verification.

It does not mean you don't still care about people and respect them and want them to succeed, it's about setting things up in a way that best allows people to succeed on their own without handouts.

 

[RxRob]

It's been a long-forgone conclusion that no k-12 kid wants to compete with a home-schooled kid.

 

[YO YO YO]

I go to work, oftentimes 50 hours a week, i have 3 kids and a wife. I do what you do with one blind eye and both hands tied behind my back. Just don't be so quick to judge or believe that everyone is making the identical sacrifice you feel you are making to spend your time at a university. _________________________________________________________________

For someone who advises against judging, you certainly do your fair share considering you don't know what I do.

You chose to get married and have children. Your martyr story really doesn't impress me because YOU yourself made those choices.

I will take your word about the Republican thing, I have no need to check up on you as if you were my child.

But this is about the fact that online degree programs are frowned upon by society today. Adding PharmD to the list of online prgrams associates your hard work (and everyone else's) with that societal frown. And it opens the door for lower standards in the not-so-distant future.

This is also about the fact that we don't want to saturate the market with pharmacists. You will end up going to school for 6 years to make $45,000. But hey, the lines at the pharmacy will be 1/2 the length, because the drug stores will get 2 pharmacists for the price of one! And that's what we as ethical people should care about, right?

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

You are not required to tell your future employer that you did a web based program. The diplomas look exactly the same as the students who did the campus based programs at the same university.
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Online degrees have a negative societal connotation, whether you like it or not, even if you choose to deny it.

I definititely agree to that, and that is why I said it in the first place. That's society's perception of online programs and it sucks, but it's not going to stop these programs from forming.

From your response it seems that you dont know that CU also has a campus PharmD program. It is not entirely an online program. Aproximately 110 of their accepted students are on campus and 55 of them are in the web based program. I personally don't want to live in Nebraska for 4 years so I applied for the web program. I could have easily have applied for the campus program at CU(you just check the appropriate box)--I would be learning the exact same thing as the students on campus. The only difference is that web based students don't go to the lectures, we get them 'sent' to us- the same exact lectures that the students on the CU campus heard that morning. As for the labs, we have to go to campus during the summer for that. I think I have spelled this thing out enough, you may have to re-read my original post. It doesn't matter if you oppose these programs--no one really cares about any of our opinions, it is here to stay regardless.

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

No it isn't. Responsibility is never really a factor in how much a salary is. Look at paramedics and social workers and nurses. They aren't raking in a lot of money.

Nurses salaries have gone up because there is shortage of them also. Not because they have taken on more responsibility.

PharmD degree was created because the role of the pharmacist is changing. Pharmacy school is now 4 years instead of the 3 years it used to be. We are taking on more responsibilities so we have to get trained for it. That's why we get paid more starting salaries than the original pharmacists. If I was going to have to go to school for an extra year, I better get paid more starting salary than my original counterpart, wouldn't you say the same thing?

Of course shortage is a factor to the increase in pay, but more importantly there is also an increase in the schooling too, because pharmacists are taking on more responsibilities. We get bigger and better salaries because of it. That's the general reason why people get avanced degrees now, more schooling equals more pay.

 

[insipid1979]

PharmD degree was created because the role of the pharmacist is changing. Pharmacy school is now 4 years instead of the 3 years it used to be. We are taking on more responsibilities so we have to get trained for it. That's why we get paid more starting salaries than the original pharmacists. If I was going to have to go to school for an extra year, I better get paid more starting salary than my original counterpart, wouldn't you say the same thing?

Of course shortage is a factor to the increase in pay, but more importantly there is also an increase in the schooling too, because pharmacists are taking on more responsibilities. We get bigger and better salaries because of it. That's the general reason why people get avanced degrees now, more schooling equals more pay.

Pharmacists are not getting paid more because they are taking on more responsibility. It is due solely to the shortage.

Social Workers with a masters degree get paid a joke amount. Length of education has absolutely nothing to do with the salary.

Some paramedics get paid like 13 dollars an hour. I assume it is less at other places...and look how much responsibility they have.

 

[rxlynn]

All of us real students made the financial sacrifices, took pay cuts, and/or left our jobs. Why should they be any different.

These people are poisoning the system due to their inadequate life planning, and lack of regard for anyone else in the profession. You can bet that NACDS is behind this in an effort to reduce the amount they need to pay pharmacists in the long run. Simple supply and demand economics here. And of course people are gobbling it up.

Sure, competition is still pretty tight now while this program is still in its experimental phase. But you wait 5 to 10 years and see how the competition eases up. And then when you tell someone that you are a PharmD at your Country Club Sunday Brunch, don't be surprised if you hear a chuckle or two. Because if this catches on (I'm sure it will), anyone will be able to be a pharmacist.

Folks, this is one school we are talking about, and I seriously doubt that NACDS went out to Nebraska and convinced a small Catholic university to start an online degree. I wouldn't say that it's in an experimental phase any longer - they are 6 or 7 years in, and have already graduated a couple of classes. Their students (the successful ones anyway) have the same pay cuts and financial sacrifices that on-campus students do.

YO YO YO - I will always defend your right to have your opinion about this subject, but don't try to tell me or anybody else in the Creighton program that I am "poisoning the system due to my inadequate life planning". Unfortunately, we don't all leave college at age 21 knowing exactly what we want to do in the world. And, even if you do know at that point, sometimes things happen in life that are unexpected. My PLANNED choices in life about how I wanted to raise my family and live my everyday life are what led me to work in a pharmacy in the first place. The reality of my financial and family situation is that I cannot relocate for pharmacy school. However much I might personally want to go to School A, B, or C, there are 3 other people in my life who would be affected by that decision.

I suggest that you think long and hard before you marry and have children - that way you are less likely to face choices that will interrupt your "adequate life planning".

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

Most online classes I have been around have out of control cheating because the tests were online. If you force people to take tests on campus and have labs on campus, that is much better. That still doesn't fix the main problem with online classes, though. My problem with online classes is it takes away what getting a degree really means. You use less than 15% of what you learned in college once your out in the real world. Anyone that has graduated and returned will agree. So, why do employers want degrees? It says "hey, I want this job so much I have paid for 4 years of school to learn crap I will almost never use. I have been though stavation. I have been memorizing things I can look up once I graduate. I have put my LIFE on hold to do all of this." The sacrafices and work are what show you want the job. Online degrees take away from both.

People who are enrolled in CU's web-based pathway don't usually keep their jobs. You are still taking 18 credits a semester just like the students on the CU's campus-based pathway. You still have to put your life and job on 'hold'. The only difference is that if your husband and kids live in Alaska, it is not easy to relocate and leave your family for 4 years. You are not recommended to keep your job and be on the program. You also cannot do CU's web-based program. It is the same lectures that students heard that morning on CU's campus are made available to you in Alaska by audio and video. It's taught at the same pace with the same classes as the CU students on campus.

As for exams, those are taken at an approved testing site in your area and are proctored(someone gets paid to watch you and make sure you arent cheating basically).

As for labs, those are taken over the summer and you go on campus for that. You can't get around that. Rotations during your last year are still required.

 

[YO YO YO]

I definititely agree to that, and that is why I said it in the first place. That's society's perception of online programs and it sucks, but it's not going to stop these programs from forming.

From your response it seems that you dont know that CU also has a campus PharmD program. It is not entirely an online program. Aproximately 110 of their accepted students are on campus and 55 of them are in the web based program. I personally don't want to live in Nebraska for 4 years so I applied for the web program. I could have easily have applied for the campus program at CU(you just check the appropriate box)--I would be learning the exact same thing as the students on campus. The only difference is that web based students don't go to the lectures, we get them 'sent' to us- the same exact lectures that the students on the CU campus heard that morning. As for the labs, we have to go to campus during the summer for that. I think I have spelled this thing out enough, you may have to re-read my original post. It doesn't matter if you oppose these programs--no one really cares about any of our opinions, it is here to stay regardless.

Of course I know they have a campus program. And the online program is small right now because these online programs are in their initial phazes....clinical trials, if you will.

And like I said, selfish people who dont want to relocate because they don't "feel like living in Nebraska" are stripping the PharmD program of its dignity. A regular PharmD candidate would move to Nebraska regardless, because whether he/she "felt like living in Nebraska" or not, he/she would know that it would be a small sacrifice to pay to fulfill a dream.

Children don't do things because they "don't feel like it". Adults do what they must. And you are simply one of the gullible ones feeding into the ploy of NACDS in their attempt to reduce the salaries of pharmacists. You are a guinea pig, a lab rat, an experiment. But you better pray everyday that it isn't here to stay, or else you will spend 3 years surfing the net and downloading streaming video to earn $45K/yr. Have fun paying 100K+ student loans back with that salary.

 

[YO YO YO]

People who are enrolled in CU's web-based pathway don't usually keep their jobs. You are still taking 18 credits a semester just like the students on the CU's campus-based pathway. You still have to put your life and job on 'hold'. The only difference is that if your husband and kids live in Alaska, it is not easy to relocate and leave your family for 4 years. You are not recommended to keep your job and be on the program. You also cannot do CU's web-based program. It is the same lectures that students heard that morning on CU's campus are made available to you in Alaska by audio and video. It's taught at the same pace with the same classes as the CU students on campus.

As for exams, those are taken at an approved testing site in your area and are proctored(someone gets paid to watch you and make sure you arent cheating basically).

As for labs, those are taken over the summer and you go on campus for that. You can't get around that. Rotations during your last year are still required.

Have you read what you wrote? You said that you "cant get around that" when referring to labs. Why would you want to "get around that", unless you are basically a sloth of a student and want the easy way out.

Your very words reveal your intentions. You are looking for the easy way out.

You "don't feel like" living in Nebraska for four years, and you indicate that you "cant get around that" when it comes to labs.

You are the prime example of why these programs are destined to lower the standards of an otherwise dignified profession.

Online technology is only beneficial when used to suppliment regular didactic lecture. It is not meant to replace lecture. Just like how vitamins are not meant to replace food.

 

[HotnSunnyDr]

Pharmacists are not getting paid more because they are taking on more responsibility. It is due solely to the shortage.

Social Workers with a masters degree get paid a joke amount. Length of education has absolutely nothing to do with the salary.

Some paramedics get paid like 13 dollars an hour. I assume it is less at other places...and look how much responsibility they have.

I still don't think you understand what I was saying. The PharmD degree was created because the role of the pharmacist is changing.


They added one extra year of schooling.

We are getting paid more as a result.

If you still don't understand, then I give up! It's a stupid thing to argue about anyway. Neither you or I create these salaries.

 

[YO YO YO]

I still don't think you understand what I was saying. The PharmD degree was created because the role of the pharmacist is changing.


They added one extra year of schooling.

We are getting paid more as a result.

If you still don't understand, then I give up! It's a stupid thing to argue about anyway. Neither you or I create these salaries.

We are getting paid more as a result of the shortage of the supply of pharmacists and the increase in demand for pharmacists.

Did you take Economics online also?

 

[Falokis]

Did you take Economics online also?

I laughed so hard at this, I spilled my drink. Thanks a lot.

 

[insipid1979]

I still don't think you understand what I was saying. The PharmD degree was created because the role of the pharmacist is changing.


They added one extra year of schooling.

We are getting paid more as a result.

If you still don't understand, then I give up! It's a stupid thing to argue about anyway. Neither you or I create these salaries.

I get what you are saying...you think more schooling = better salary...and that is just wrong.

You are right though...neither you or I created these salaries. The economy did...which is run by supply and demand. Which backs up what I was saying about the shortage is the reason for the salary increase...not increased schooling (although that contributes to the shortage indirectly). It doesn't matter if they make the PharmD a 15 year program...if there are the same number of pharmacists working now as there would be if there is a 15 year program (with more to compensate for the amount of time people can't be working because they are getting their degree) then the salary would be the same.

It isn't like all the retail companies got together and said "Gee golly...these people went to school for 6 years that sounds like it is worth 100k a year to me". What they say is "We need a pharmacist at this store...we will have to match what other companies are paying their pharmacists if we want to hire any". The other companies are saying the exact same thing. The salary figure is a result of the different companies raising their salaries to attract the pharmacists they need. They could really care less if you spent more time in school or not. They aren't going to pay someone more because they have 2 bachelor degrees over one. It is a real simple concept...

Did you take Economics online also?

She just took an online crashcourse if she read my post. I wonder if she was required to take economics? It sure doesn't seem like it...

I should charge for quality online education ...