Online Psy.D - Why not?

[Jxz]

The OP says he/she wants to go into private practice--so worrying about the hiring market isn't all that relevant.

I used to think in those terms, "have some respect for your education," but then I got into this field and I saw too many people with all these credentials who basically fouled everything up.

And I began to think about things like this:

https://www.apa.org/careers/early-career/licensure-requirements.pdf

Basically, it says that we've raised the bar on licensure requirements to a point where it just doesn't make economic sense--the amount of training is not commensurate with the compensation you eventually get.

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[psychtalk1274]

So the answer is get less training/sub par training? no.
While there may be some idiot psychologists out there shouldnt you strive to be better than just them? we are impacting peoples lives, how is less education or online education an answer? the real answer is that insurance should pay more for us. jxz your answer fails to consider the well being of clients and that is freaking scary.

 

[psych84]

Here in Canada, our Uni's are basically all public, and in fact we have one province with very reputable Uni's that offer Masters that are largely online. (a province that allows Masters level Psychologists) The tuition is also very normal. There is some face to face each year for summer seminars. And then of course there are generally two practicums. Then of course you still have to get your supervised hours, pass the tests, etc to get licensed.

Now maybe the difference is that we are talking about a Masters compared to Phd (as I'm not sure about all the components of a Phd). But largely these Masters are terminal, in counselling psychology, and you don't get sufficient training to be anything else but a counselling psychologist.

 

[Ollie123]

Have we raised the bar on licensure requirements? My take is that we're making changes to create the illusion of higher standards while lowering them across the board (and continually fighting to lower them further). How often do we see posts talking about how they HAVE to go to online programs/Argosy/etc. because its just unreasonably difficult to get into a legit school. Posts about how outrageous it is that they have to study for and pass the EPPP. Posts about how its unfair for places to only consider folks who take APA accredited internships because of the shortage. Ignoring the point that maybe they made some errors and/or are not suitable for doctoral level training. Ignoring the point that part of the reason the salaries are so low is because we're increasingly flooding the market with folks who have a master's degree someone slapped a "doctorate" sticker on. When we're letting these folks get "doctorates" and practice, I don't think we have any right to demand higher salaries or any reason to expect to receive them. Yes, there can be problems with access to care in certain areas. Many of those problems are systemic rather than a lack of providers per se. There are also many solutions that don't entail handing anyone who can fumble their way through "Psychotherapy for dummies" a license and letting them go to town.

 

[cara susanna]

The OP says he/she wants to go into private practice--so worrying about the hiring market isn't all that relevant.

I used to think in those terms, "have some respect for your education," but then I got into this field and I saw too many people with all these credentials who basically fouled everything up.

And I began to think about things like this:

https://www.apa.org/careers/early-career/licensure-requirements.pdf

Basically, it says that we've raised the bar on licensure requirements to a point where it just doesn't make economic sense--the amount of training is not commensurate with the compensation you eventually get.

Although hiring isn't an issue, referrals might be.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...and competency.

 

[erg923]

JXZ,
When the poster finds that patients don't just fall in your lap on graduation day and/or when they begin to struggle in the private practice market in CA where the customer can pick from the psychologist across the street, the one adjacent, or the one caddy corner, then he or she just may deciede that they would like to work somewhere. Maybe somewhere with, ya know , health coverage and paid vacation and sick time.

As for your other comments, I just don't get it. So you think there are some psychologists with good training acting badly out there? Well, slap my ass and call me Charlie. What a shock. This in no way gives credence to programs that are shoddy. Come on man , this is kindergarten logic here.

 

[lhasalover]

JXZ,
When the poster finds that patients don't just fall in your lap on graduation day and/or when they begin to struggle in the private practice market in CA where the customer can pick from the psychologist across the street, the one adjacent, or the one caddy corner, then he or she just may deciede that they would like to work somewhere. Maybe somewhere with, ya know , health coverage and paid vacation and sick time.

As for your other comments, I just don't get it. So you think there are some psychologists with good training acting badly out there? Well, slap my ass and call me Charlie. What a shock. This in no way gives credence to programs that are shoddy. Come on man , this is kindergarten logic here.

I'm also thinking about practicing in AZ. Erg, I do not want to work for anyone but myself. I could work part-time as a school psychologist until I build my practice, then leave the school districts for good. Also, I intend to get licensed as an educational psychologist and do independent psychoeducational assessments for students alongside my therapy patients.

I keep going back to the fact that if this is such a horrendous idea, unsafe for patients, etc, why would states allow it. CA will allow this and so will AZ.

I hope I'm not getting replies from anyone who is worried that online schools will flood the market and lower salaries for other psychologists. This is my life we are talking about.

 

[psychtalk1274]

We are worried about the patients not our market value. loop holes sweetheart. I cant fathom how you think this is a good idea. dont the stats suggest its a horrible idea when my program has had a zero % attrition rate 100p% apa accreditation intership match rate and 100% employed. stats dont lie my friend.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I do think the educational assessments would be a good niche for you given your background

 

[psychtalk1274]

Also we all know some ****ty lawyers who are licensed so just cause a state allows you to be licensed doesnt mean your legit or you educationIis on par.

 

[erg923]

I'm also thinking about practicing in AZ. Erg, I do not want to work for anyone but myself. I could work part-time as a school psychologist until I build my practice, then leave the school districts for good. Also, I intend to get licensed as an educational psychologist and do independent psychoeducational assessments for students alongside my therapy patients.

I keep going back to the fact that if this is such a horrendous idea, unsafe for patients, etc, why would states allow it. CA will allow this and so will AZ.

I hope I'm not getting replies from anyone who is worried that online schools will flood the market and lower salaries for other psychologists. This is my life we are talking about.

Really? This is the point you wanna quibble with. Really? Out of ALL the reasons and responses you have been provided you want to challenge it based on the fact that you are uber sure you want to work for yourself. How bout addressing a point that actually has relevance to training?

And why would I NOT be concerned about psychologists flooding the market and decreasing salaries?! I have pride in this vocation. Why would I want or advocate practices that hurt it?

Lastly, it is legal to do alot of things. You can drive your car with your feet if you want to. That doesn't make a good ****ing idea! I will standby my assertion that the 22% employment rate is largely due to the naivete and uniformed nature of the applicants they are targeting. You sound like a perfect example based on your statement thus far (lack of concern for training quality, lack of knowledge of the profession, self-centered orientation towards the field as evidence by lack of concern for market flooding, salary suppression, etc.)

Look dude, any reasonable and rationale person would agree that a person who chooses to plunk down thousand of dollars to attend a professional training program where 22% of the people actually end up working in said profession is making an IRRATIONAL decision. And, I do not want my profession to consist of irrational people. This is dangerous for everyone involved.

 

[psychtalk1274]

May I ask why you are against going to a brick and mortar school?

 

[psych84]

Anybody have an opinion on my post?

What do you think about reputable publically-funded research Universities having Psychology Masters programs that are largely online, with normal tuition fees?

 

[psychtalk1274]

Anybody have an opinion on my post?

What do you think about reputable publically-funded research Universities having Psychology Masters programs that are largely online, with normal tuition fees?

Im not familar with Canadians accreditation. my first thought is hesitation but I feel I cant speak to canada's programs since im not familiar

 

[lhasalover]

I do think the educational assessments would be a good niche for you given your background

Exactly. Is there anyone on here that doesn't think that having a doctorate in clinical psychology along with my master's in educational psychology and school psychology credential will put me ahead of all the other educational psychologists without a doctorate that are doing independent psychoeducational assessments? In addition, I will be able to do therapy with my patients.

Erg said:

And why would I NOT be concerned about psychologists flooding the market and decreasing salaries?! I have pride in this vocation. Why would I want or advocate practices that hurt it?

Then you're not going to like what I'm going to say next. You asked how I intend to stay competitive with my degree from my online program when there are psychologists around the corner and across the street from my practice who graduated from APA accredited programs. My answer is that I would lower my hourly rate. Look, I want to be a good psychologist, and yes, I do care about patients.

I am 49 years old. I already went to the brick and mortar institution to get my masters that took me years and was inconvenient to complete. Now, I want a program that is not as inconvenient and is less lengthy. In addition, I am able to work while I am going through the program.

 

[psychtalk1274]

So you want an easy way out. what a ridiculous reason. I think doing educational assessments suits you but I could not encourage you to see therapy clients based on the pathetic psyd program. its inconvenient.... thats hilarous

 

[psych84]

Im not familar with Canadians accreditation. my first thought is hesitation but I feel I cant speak to canada's programs since im not familiar

The regulations here are quite tight.

The provinces regulate healthcare, so each province has their own standards, but these standards are generally high. We have about 4 provinces of 10 that allow Masters level Psychologists for example, but outside of Alberta, the others don't allow the graduate degree to be done online. Furthemore, in Saskatchewan, where they also have Masters-level, they distinguish between Masters-level who can diagnose and those that can't. (you need additional training to be able to diagnose)

You can attend a University that is not accredited, but many internship programs only accept students from accredited programs, and hospitals won't hire you (some other employers as well, i believe)

The thing is though, almost all our Uni's are public Universities. That makes the big difference. We don't have any for-profit Uni's that I know of.

I guess I wanted to understand how much of the outrage is that these programs are from for-profit schools, and how much it is about the online part.

 

[psychtalk1274]

Also, you apparently dont care for your clients. if you cared you would go through legitmate training not some bs program because the legitmate training is inconvenient.

 

[lhasalover]

I just received a messa

Its a program that circumvents all aspects of peer oversight in its training. No accreditation by the peer body of this profession. No internship (I didnt even no that was possible). No oral dissertation defense. No practicum supervision and oversight by academic faculty. What do you think this is about?

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I just spoke to another alumni of the program that has achieved licensure as a clinical psychologist in CA and he said that he learned more from his online program than he did from any face-to-face classes in the past.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I would encourage you to talk to the 88% not working in the field. you will not convince us this is a good idea. I worry about your future and your future clients if you go down this path.

 

[lhasalover]

I would encourage you to talk to the 88% not working in the field. you will not convince us this is a good idea. I worry about your future and your future clients if you go down this path.

I am not trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea. The question is are the 88% not working in the field due to them wanting to be hired by someone else. That wouldn't be relevant to me as I want to set up my own practice.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I just received a messa


I'm not sure how I feel about it. I just spoke to another alumni of the program that has achieved licensure as a clinical psychologist in CA and he said that he learned more from his online program than he did from any face-to-face classes in the past.

Also, what face to face classes In the past, from his bachelor program? well I would hope he learned more. seems like he is more of a sales man than anything. and of course no response about how you are taking the easy way out.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I am not trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea. The question is are the 88% not working in the field due to them wanting to be hired by someone else. That wouldn't be relevant to me as I want to set up my own practice.

You dont think the 88% want to be in private practice. the vast majority of clinicians I talk to want to be in private practice. so there goes down your explanation

 

[deleted375280]

Exactly. Is there anyone on here that doesn't think that having a doctorate in clinical psychology along with my master's in educational psychology and school psychology credential will put me ahead of all the other educational psychologists without a doctorate that are doing independent psychoeducational assessments? In addition, I will be able to do therapy with my patients.

Erg said:

Then you're not going to like what I'm going to say next. You asked how I intend to stay competitive with my degree from my online program when there are psychologists around the corner and across the street from my practice who graduated from APA accredited programs. My answer is that I would lower my hourly rate. Look, I want to be a good psychologist, and yes, I do care about patients.

I am 49 years old. I already went to the brick and mortar institution to get my masters that took me years and was inconvenient to complete. Now, I want a program that is not as inconvenient and is less lengthy. In addition, I am able to work while I am going through the program.

I am not trying to convince anyone that this is a good idea. The question is are the 88% not working in the field due to them wanting to be hired by someone else. That wouldn't be relevant to me as I want to set up my own practice.

A doctorate isn't meant to be convenient for you. It's meant to provide a high level of training necessary to function at that level. You are not entitled to a doctorate just because you want one.

Good luck getting anyone to refer to you. Working for yourself won't mean much without business. I'd refer to a Master's level provider before I ever sent someone to a sham psychologist who thought that an online doctorate was in any way appropriate training. If you cared about patients, you wouldn't be picking a shoddy program that is not going to provide you with adequate training. This is even worse than the Argosys and Alliants and that's really saying something.

 

[lhasalover]

Also, what face to face classes In the past, from his bachelor program? well I would hope he learned more. seems like he is more of a sales man than anything. and of course no response about how you are taking the easy way out.

I don't know what degree he is referring to, but I can understand what he is talking about. In my masters degree program from Azusa Pacific University, I learned more from studying the textbook than face-to-face lectures and all the presentations from classmates that were often boring. I've always been that way. I'm more of a book learner.
I thought I had already answered the question about taking the easy way out. Yes, I do want convenience this time around. I am 49 years old. Time is more of a concern for me than it is for some of you who are younger.

 

[lhasalover]

A doctorate isn't meant to be convenient for you. It's meant to provide a high level of training necessary to function at that level. You are not entitled to a doctorate just because you want one.

Good luck getting anyone to refer to you. Working for yourself won't mean much without business. I'd refer to a Master's level provider before I ever sent someone to a sham psychologist who thought that an online doctorate was in any way appropriate training. If you cared about patients, you wouldn't be picking a shoddy program that is not going to provide you with adequate training. This is even worse than the Argosys and Alliants and that's really saying something.

Are you aware that Cal Southern's progam is nationally accredited by the DETC? No easy feat.

 

[psychtalk1274]

But its not accredited by apa which considering alliant and agrosy are, thats kind of a minimum standard. I bet detc accreditation isnt that hard. you sound so entitled. because your older you should get this degree. and I thought generation was the entitled one. ridiculous.

 

[psychtalk1274]

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070418002429AA9BkNC
Regarding the detc accreditation. not as good as you thought

 

[psychtalk1274]

http://www.degree.net/accreditation...rsus-national-accreditation_199911302321.html

http://www.degreefinders.com/school/accreditation.html (read under what accreditation is best)

 

[psychtalk1274]

By the way the first thing that pops into goo when I google detc is is detc worthless haha

 

[lhasalover]

Taking my desire to practice as a licensed clinical psychologist out of the equation, wouldn't just having the Psy.D degree alone make me more marketable as an educational psychologist doing independent psychoeducational assessments? Remember, I already have my masters in educational psychology from APU, a regionally accredited, highly regarded private university.

And I'm getting nasty messages in my inbox from some of you...

 

[psychtalk1274]

You would be misleading you clients which may verge on being unethical. I think a psyd or really a phd would be wonderful if it was from a university based apa accredited program. then I would say hot damn your headed in the right track.

 

[lhasalover]

You would be misleading you clients which may verge on being unethical. I think a psyd or really a phd would be wonderful if it was from a university based apa accredited program. then I would say hot damn your headed in the right track.

psychtalk, I can understand why you don't want to flood the market with psychologists. It's a threat to your earning potential. However, your posts now border on the abusive.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I care about clients. hbow are my messages abusive? Have I not stated facts. im not worried about competition, this isnt about me its about the well being of clients. and im not sending you messages in your inbox I will state it right here. its not my fault you dont want to hearf the music

 

[psychtalk1274]

I told you that you have a niche ive explained multiple times why online sucks ive explained on here and wedding bee why a university based apa accredited would be the way to go. I want you to be successful but you gotta actual work for it.

 

[lhasalover]

I told you that you have a niche ive explained multiple times why online sucks ive explained on here and wedding bee why a university based apa accredited would be the way to go. I want you to be successful but you gotta actual work for it.

Jxz doesn't think it sucks. I think that ultimately, I will get out of any education exactly what I put into it. And you haven't answered my question, wouldn't just having the Psy.D, no matter if it's from an online program or not, set me apart from other educational psychologists doing independent assessments that don't have one? In addition, the program is not wholly online. I have a practicum to complete, and for licensure I have to have my 3,000 hours of trained supervision. Right?

And how am I misleading anybody?? The only way that I would be misleading someone is if they asked me if my doctorate program was from an APA accredited university and I told them yes. The average client isn't even going to ask that. Especially if they are coming to me for independent psychoeducational assessments. Let's get real here.

 

[psychtalk1274]

It would set you apart but I truly believe you would be misleading your clients and I also believe that you fully intend on doing therapy or on wedding bee you called it "motivational coaching". Ask 100 psychologist 95 are going to tell you that this is a bad deal. I pray that you do no harm to clients. your lack of regard for them really worries me.

 

[psychtalk1274]

Also, any psychologists can technically do assessments as thats kind of psychologys niche. but whatever you can ppreach to people who just want people to validate their view point and not see reality. good luck with that.

 

[PsyDr]

You asked for the groups opinion and you got it. I don't see why you are trying to change their opinion while simultaneously asking for said opinion.

I say go ahead. But I make a lot of money in suits against people with online degrees.

 

[lhasalover]

Also, any psychologists can technically do assessments as thats kind of psychologys niche. but whatever you can ppreach to people who just want people to validate their view point and not see reality. good luck with that.

Read up. I edited my last response. How am I misleading anybody?

 

[psychtalk1274]

Because your training is subpar. I would not tr4ust you do therapy with a rock. the fact you wantg to scam your clients tells me everything I need to know about you. so sad.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I'm unclear how lowering your prices is going to work if your clients are using insurance. Most clients are going to be paying their $20 copay or whatever.

I'd also urge you to really talk to people working in private practice. It is not the dream job many people think it is. And you are right, it would likely be the only option for you with this degree. I say this as someone who works in private practice.

I asked before, but I'm not sure you answered. Why not a license-eligible master's?

 

[lhasalover]

I'm unclear how lowering your prices is going to work if your clients are using insurance. Most clients are going to be paying their $20 copay or whatever.

I'd also urge you to really talk to people working in private practice. It is not the dream job many people think it is. And you are right, it would likely be the only option for you with this degree. I say this as someone who works in private practice.

I asked before, but I'm not sure you answered. Why not a license-eligible master's?

I have been considering that option. I would think that I would earn more money by just having the Psy.D. Am I wrong about that? There seems to be more clinicians out there with a master degree than with a doctorate, so more competition. Am I wrong about that too?

Doctor Eliza, I just don't want to work for anybody else. I want to call the shots over my life and my career. I also want to create a website and do relationship counseling and motivational coaching via phone. Can you tell me some of the things that you don't like about being in private practice?

 

[psychtalk1274]

So you only want to be a psyd because of money this sounds legit.

 

[lhasalover]

So you only want to be a psyd because of money this sounds legit.

No, I also want to help people. People struggling with addictions, relationship problems, personality disorders. I've always been interested in psychology ever since I learned about Freud.
I can't help people in the school districts to my satisfaction because when it comes down to it, it's all about politics.
And most of you seem to be complaining about the money.

 

[psychtalk1274]

Finally, you speak about the actual clients. if you wanna help thats fantastic. I encourage you to get a phd or psyd from a university apa accredited program. or get an mft or msw which I suggested on weddingbee. will you make less: more than likely but you might actually gain more client from getting training from a legit program. and no most of us care about clients first and then money. its really funny your not money motivated since your orginial post on weddingbee discussed income of an mft and you asked about income of a psyd which I discouraged due to the large amount of debt you would have to take on

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Lack of benefits wears on me. Paid vacation or sick time would be awesome. I often feel pressured to go into work ill so I don't lose the money. Retirement plan would be nice. Insurance companies don't increase their rates often, so with cost of living increasing year to year, you actually will be in worse financial shape as time goes on.

It can be isolating to be in private practice.

This is not to mention that many people think they will like to work with clients full time, but then discover they only like to work with clients part time because a full time caseload can be uniquely draining.

There are things I like too, but you asked about what I didn't like.

 

[ikibah]

Ihasalover. It seems like you have no problem with it. If you're comfortable with it and feel like your making the right decision for yourself and for your clients then go for it. The same way your mind will not be changed, those whose are against it minds' won't be changed either. Just do your due diligence and continue to talk to graduates of this program who are doing exactly what you want to be doing, if you like what you hear go for it. You already heard every reason in the book not to. If you don't hold of any of them then get the show on the road.

 

[lhasalover]

Lack of benefits wears on me. Paid vacation or sick time would be awesome. I often feel pressured to go into work ill so I don't lose the money. Retirement plan would be nice. Insurance companies don't increase their rates often, so with cost of living increasing year to year, you actually will be in worse financial shape as time goes on.

It can be isolating to be in private practice.

This is not to mention that many people think they will like to work with clients full time, but then discover they only like to work with clients part time because a full time caseload can be uniquely draining.

There are things I like too, but you asked about what I didn't like.

Thank you, Eliza. I say bring on the isolation! I can't stand working for or with other people. That's just my personality. Can you tell me some of the things that you do like? Also, do you think that I will have a problem getting referrals? Since, I intend on doing psychoeducational assessments, I would think that I could build my referral base from that too, plus marketing.

psychtalk...I have no interest in competing with Psy.D's or PH.D's. for business as an MFT. That is my reservation in becoming one. Does that even make sense to you?? I also heard that insurance companies reimburse those with doctorates at a higher rate than those with masters degrees.