OPSC email re: University of California rotations

[pattr]

OPSC has rectified a case of blatant discrimination against the osteopathic profession by the University of California (UC). Upon learning that three UC facilities were refusing to accept applications for rotations from osteopathic medical students (OMS), OPSC quickly established a multi-point action plan to eliminate this discriminatory practice and ensure equal opportunity for OMS’. Today we learned that our efforts were successful - UC has modified its policies to accept rotation applications from osteopathic medical students.

Actions taken by OPSC to fight this discrimination included:

-Meeting between high level UC official, OPSC’s legislative advocates and Executive Director Creason

-I met with five influential legislators to request action

-I met with California Medical Association President Richard Thorp, MD to discuss joint efforts

-All OPSC Board members planned meetings with their legislators to enlist help

-Osteopathic professionals with relationships with UC facilities enlisted to assist in the effort

-Legislative resolution planned

-Legal opinion pursued

Thanks to this multi-faceted approach, the UC system removed the offending language from their websites and modified their policies to accept OMS applications for rotations.

OPSC is pleased to serve in the roles of protector and promoter of the osteopathic profession in California through efforts such as these. Members who are made aware of issues of discrimination against osteopathic physicians or students should contact OPSC for immediate action.

David A. Connett, DO, FACOFP
President

Likely referring to UCI and others' recent policies to not accept DO students for away rotations. This seems like a great victory. Discuss.

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[Kevin Baker]

If they didnt want me a week ago before legal action was threatened, and I have equivalent options elsewhere, Ill take my talents elsewhere. Kudos on OPSC for a well fought victory. But such a blatant case of discrimination rubs me the wrong way and I doubt ill look at UCI when I apply to residency next year.

 

[tripl3s3v3n]

Maybe it is just me, but it really bugs me that UCI is so anti-DO when they started as a DO school.

 

[GUH]

I'm glad that OPSC fought for this but am afraid that they will come up with some BS like "you have to be in the top X% of your class, but only if you're an OMS"

 

[SurgeDO]

honestly, **** UC. any institution that is more concerned with 2 letters than the advancement of medicine needs serious introspection. i bet the PDs there have painted portraits of themselves in their offices.

 

[SLC]

I have a similar issue in Utah, only it's a hospital chain that's closely embedded with the UofU that is barring DO's from rotations that would involve time spent in their hospitals. (Intermountain Health Care, in case anyone is curious).

I hope they don't plan on me referring my patients to their hospitals in the future!

The UofU on the other hand, while certainly not known to be DO "friendly", seems fairly open to DO applicants for visiting student rotations.

 

[koan]

It looks like UC Irvine and UC San Diego have updated VSAS to allow for DO applications, but UC Davis still has not. There was an internal medicine residency program in SoCal (can't remember which one, but not a UC) that was listed on Freida as accepting applications for residency if your USMLE Step 1 was >220 (MD) or >250 (DO).

 

[SurgeDO]

It looks like UC Irvine and UC San Diego have updated VSAS to allow for DO applications, but UC Davis still has not. There was an internal medicine residency program in SoCal (can't remember which one, but not a UC) that was listed on Freida as accepting applications for residency if your USMLE Step 1 was >220 (MD) or >250 (DO).

Scripps

 

[SLC]

Scripps

Scripps green, more precisely.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Maybe it is just me, but it really bugs me that UCI is so anti-DO when they started as a DO school.

Yeah, it's funny because it had been a DO school longer than it has been an MD school. UCI DO school (aka Pacific Sanitarium and school of Osteopathic Medicine) was founded on 1896 and it converted to an MD school in 1962.

 

[NurWollen]

I have a similar issue in Utah, only it's a hospital chain that's closely embedded with the UofU that is barring DO's from rotations that would involve time spent in their hospitals. (Intermountain Health Care, in case anyone is curious).

I hope they don't plan on me referring my patients to their hospitals in the future!

The UofU on the other hand, while certainly not known to be DO "friendly", seems fairly open to DO applicants for visiting student rotations.

Man, that kind of thing just pisses me off so bad. The FM residencies at two of their hospitals have DOs in them... but they won't even let DO students rotate there? Any idea what IHC's motivation is?

 

[SLC]

Man, that kind of thing just pisses me off so bad. The FM residencies at two of their hospitals have DOs in them... but they won't even let DO students rotate there? Any idea what IHC's motivation is?

The FP programs are at McKay and UVRMC. And DO students can rotate there. But IMC (the big mothership hospital), LDS, and perhaps Primary Children's are off limits.

They explained to me that IHC has a policy that allows each hospital to make that call. And that the powers that be at those hospitals said no DO students.

 

[Want2Bdoc]

It looks like UC Irvine and UC San Diego have updated VSAS to allow for DO applications, but UC Davis still has not. There was an internal medicine residency program in SoCal (can't remember which one, but not a UC) that was listed on Freida as accepting applications for residency if your USMLE Step 1 was >220 (MD) or >250 (DO).

I've done 2 visiting rotations as a DO at UC Davis in 2013 (you're just not able to go through VSAS to set them up). Instead, I contacted the programs individually. Unfortunately there was a $500 fee for DOs which for me was cheaper than doing an away rotation elsewhere so I paid it.

 

[NurWollen]

The FP programs are at McKay and UVRMC. And DO students can rotate there. But IMC (the big mothership hospital), LDS, and perhaps Primary Children's are off limits.

They explained to me that IHC has a policy that allows each hospital to make that call. And that the powers that be at those hospitals said no DO students.

Hmmm.... I'm not from Utah, so I don't really have a dog in the fight. But since Utah produces the highest per capita number of DO students of any state, I wonder if all the Utahn DO students were to get together and organize a formal petition or something, I wonder if they might be able to bring some change.

 

[SLC]

Hmmm.... I'm not from Utah, so I don't really have a dog in the fight. But since Utah produces the highest per capita number of DO students of any state, I wonder if all the Utahn DO students were to get together and organize a formal petition or something, I wonder if they might be able to bring some change.

Perhaps, I know the president elect of the UOMA (we went fly-fishing last summer). He says this is one of the things he sees as critical to address during his tenure. Time will tell, but it doesn't seem like DO's in Utah are numerous enough to have much clout.

Unfortunately, I think the fact that despite producing the most DO students per capita, the lack of any DO school in Utah just means that we end up scattered to other states.

 

[GUH]

It looks like UC Irvine and UC San Diego have updated VSAS to allow for DO applications, but UC Davis still has not. There was an internal medicine residency program in SoCal (can't remember which one, but not a UC) that was listed on Freida as accepting applications for residency if your USMLE Step 1 was >220 (MD) or >250 (DO).

Funny how people say that anti-DO discrimination is in the past now that there will be no more AOA residencies

 

[NurWollen]

Funny how people say that anti-DO discrimination is in the past now that there will be no more AOA residencies

I don't think anyone is really saying it'll go away. People are saying it's going to help. And it will.

 

[Dharma]

Here's an example of a double standard set by Robert Wood Johnson in NJ:

http://www.jerseyshoreuniversitymed...uateMedicalEducation/ApplyingForElectives.cfm

If you are in network (which includes the DO school in NJ) you're ok. You're also ok if you are at an (i.e. ANY) LCME school. But if you're at a DO school (outside of the NJ one) or a Caribbean school (yep they clump us with the Big 3) then you are left with the scraps (i.e. electives not listed in the RWJ student handbook). RWJ restricts DO students from applying to rotations until 4 weeks before a rotation. (Can anyone actually pull that off, when our home schools expect to know where we are going much earlier?)

So, they dance around the discrimination issue by allowing DO students, but they restrict access by setting up two different sets of rules. This kinda stuff needs to end… and hopefully someone similar to the group above can jump on it.

 

[Dharma]

I say email your state organizations and at least inform them of the issues. I plan on sending NJAOPS http://www.njosteo.com/displayemailforms.cfm?emailformnbr=120933 an email. At the very least maybe it could put some of this on the radar of those with a little clout.

 

[NurWollen]

Here's an example of a double standard set by Robert Wood Johnson in NJ:

http://www.jerseyshoreuniversitymed...uateMedicalEducation/ApplyingForElectives.cfm

If you are in network (which includes the DO school in NJ) you're ok. You're also ok if you are at an (i.e. ANY) LCME school. But if you're at a DO school (outside of the NJ one) or a Caribbean school (yep they clump us with the Big 3) then you are left with the scraps (i.e. electives not listed in the RWJ student handbook). RWJ restricts DO students from applying to rotations until 4 weeks before a rotation. (Can anyone actually pull that off, when our home schools expect to know where we are going much earlier?)

So, they dance around the discrimination issue by allowing DO students, but they restrict access by setting up two different sets of rules. This kinda stuff needs to end… and hopefully someone similar to the group above can jump on it.

Yeah, kind of like Scripps Green in San Diego that was mentioned in above. MDs need a 220 to rotate and DOs need a 250. Effectively bars than from even having to worry about DOs. A DO with a 250 can get in to a lot better programs than Scripps Green.

 

[WaylonS]

The University of Michigan doesn't set board score cut-offs, but they do limit which DO schools they will accept rotators from. Is this discriminatory? I don't think so.


Only osteopathic medical students attending the following schools may submit an application:

• A.T. Still - Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University
• Kansas City University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/visiting-students

 

[pattr]

The University of Michigan doesn't set board score cut-offs, but they do limit which DO schools they will accept rotators from. Is this discriminatory? I don't think so.

Only osteopathic medical students attending the following schools may submit an application:

• A.T. Still - Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University
• Kansas City University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/visiting-students

How do you reckon it isn't discriminatory?

 

[Siggy]

The University of Michigan doesn't set board score cut-offs, but they do limit which DO schools they will accept rotators from. Is this discriminatory? I don't think so.

Only osteopathic medical students attending the following schools may submit an application:

• A.T. Still - Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine of Midwestern University
• Kansas City University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine
• Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine

http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/visiting-students

Do they restrict which LCME schools they accept rotators from?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How do you reckon it isn't discriminatory?

They feel like other DO schools have not proved they're up to par? I mean if everyone was LCME accredited then it would be discriminatory.

 

[Doctor Bob]

How do you reckon it isn't discriminatory?

When hospitals set up affiliation agreements with hospitals, the agreements often come with a stipulation to take a certain number of students per year. So a hospital figures that they can handle a set number of students on a rotation at any given time, and once they reach that cap with their obligations from the affiliation agreements, they stop taking students from other schools. If those numbers are fairly stable year to year, then they can definitively say "unless you go to one of these schools, we won't take you" because they know their numbers are capped.

I've also seen hospitals where the affiliation agreements they put in place don't have rotation stipulations... those places are first come first served.

 

[WaylonS]

How do you reckon it isn't discriminatory?

Because they aren't banning all DOs, just ones from newer schools or branch campuses that may not have the same quality of pre-clinical and clinical education. From the list, off the top of my head, I know PCOM and CCOM rotate at hospitals that also have MD students. If Michigan accepts a student from CCOM for a rotation, they probably will not have to worry whether their clinical skills are on par with a student from an LCME school.

 

[hallowmann]

Funny how people say that anti-DO discrimination is in the past now that there will be no more AOA residencies

Its especially funny.. you know... since no one has said that.

At best people have said its a step in the right direction.

 

[pattr]

When hospitals set up affiliation agreements with hospitals, the agreements often come with a stipulation to take a certain number of students per year. So a hospital figures that they can handle a set number of students on a rotation at any given time, and once they reach that cap with their obligations from the affiliation agreements, they stop taking students from other schools. If those numbers are fairly stable year to year, then they can definitively say "unless you go to one of these schools, we won't take you" because they know their numbers are capped.

I've also seen hospitals where the affiliation agreements they put in place don't have rotation stipulations... those places are first come first served.

I understand that but that simply isn't the case here; University of Michigan isn't an affiliate of any of these schools.

They feel like other DO schools have not proved they're up to par? I mean if everyone was LCME accredited then it would be discriminatory.

Because they aren't banning all DOs, just ones from newer schools or branch campuses that may not have the same quality of pre-clinical and clinical education. From the list, off the top of my head, I know PCOM and CCOM rotate at hospitals that also have MD students. If Michigan accepts a student from CCOM for a rotation, they probably will not have to worry whether their clinical skills are on par with a student from an LCME school.

There are plenty of DO schools not on that list whose students also rotate with MD students... Nova comes to mind. As does LECOM, Rowan, NYIT, Oklahoma State, TCOM... I don't think that is their reason, and if it is it's totally illegitimate. It seems to me that U of Michigan is just cherry-picking the DO schools they're most comfortable with or which they have had positive experiences with in the past/not had negative experiences with. That's their prerogative; however to say it's not discriminatory is wishful thinking. As Siggy mentioned above, they don't seem to have a similar list for LCME schools though rotation experiences also vary for MD schools.

Now consider: same list of schools, slightly different situation. Say U of Michigan has the policy they will not consider applicants from other DO schools for RESIDENCY. Does this now become discrimination in your eyes?

 

[GUH]

Yeah, kind of like Scripps Green in San Diego that was mentioned in above. MDs need a 220 to rotate and DOs need a 250. Effectively bars than from even having to worry about DOs. A DO with a 250 can get in to a lot better programs than Scripps Green.

Do you really think that dismantling AOA GME will fix that? Come on.
Many MD programs will continue to discriminate against DO's using whatever underhanded tactics they can. I'll take bets from anyone that these policies will continue until they are forced to truly accept DO applicants on an equal basis according to USMLE scores. Forcing them to at least not ban DO students outright is a step in the right direction but is still just a first step.

 

[goldenroc]

How come UCI VSAS still says they don't accept DOs for rotations?

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Do you really think that dismantling AOA GME will fix that? Come on.
Many MD programs will continue to discriminate against DO's using whatever underhanded tactics they can. I'll take bets from anyone that these policies will continue until they are forced to truly accept DO applicants on an equal basis according to USMLE scores. Forcing them to at least not ban DO students outright is a step in the right direction but is still just a first step.

I understand your frustration; I think we all (being DO students) can. This dismantling of the AOA GME definitely won't make everything completely equal for our time in the match, but it's definitely the right direction. First step is better than no step at all.

 

[NurWollen]

I understand your frustration; I think we all (being DO students) can. This dismantling of the AOA GME definitely won't make everything completely equal for our time in the match, but it's definitely the right direction. First step is better than no step at all.

Exactly.

 

[DrMaximus]

I recently found that you have to pay $4000 to rotate in a non primary care program at U. Colorado in Denver if you're not from an LCME accredited school.

That was a big nope for me.

 

[koan]

How come UCI VSAS still says they don't accept DOs for rotations?

When I search 2014-2015 for UCI and "Accepts DOs" I get 192 results. Maybe you are searching the wrong year as 2013-2014 comes up empty.

 

[a runner]

Now just waiting for UC Davis to start accepting DO's on VSAS. Right now it's 0 out of 103 for 2014-2015 year.

 

[Dharma]

When hospitals set up affiliation agreements with hospitals, the agreements often come with a stipulation to take a certain number of students per year. So a hospital figures that they can handle a set number of students on a rotation at any given time, and once they reach that cap with their obligations from the affiliation agreements, they stop taking students from other schools. If those numbers are fairly stable year to year, then they can definitively say "unless you go to one of these schools, we won't take you" because they know their numbers are capped.

I've also seen hospitals where the affiliation agreements they put in place don't have rotation stipulations... those places are first come first served.

This makes sense when limited to a select few schools that have affiliation agreements. But when they allow access to students from ANY LCME program across the country while also setting up a different set of limitations for DO students then it no longer seems to be an issue of numbers.

 

[DocEspana]

Maybe it is just me, but it really bugs me that UCI is so anti-DO when they started as a DO school.

They took a DO into their IM program. Selectively biased?

 

[a runner]

Update on UC Davis: When you search electives in VSAS, UCD electives still don't show the DO icon that says DO's can apply and if you search UCD electives that are open to DO's it still results in 0 results. However, when you go directly to the host institution page in VSAS, it says that they accept DO's for up to 8 weeks of electives (same as MD's) and that they will start allowing DO's to submit applications for 2014-2015 on May 1st (April 1st for MD's). So it looks like DO's should be able to apply in VSAS for the upcoming year.

https://services.aamc.org/20/vsas/public/school/instID/802/from/results/start/0

 

[koan]

If you go to their Visiting Students page, it says that non-LCME students pay a $500 processing fee per elective. That is compared to a $150 processing fee for MD students. Still much better than the $4000 fee that U Colorado wants to charge DO's.

 

[Seth Joo]

honestly, **** UC. any institution that is more concerned with 2 letters than the advancement of medicine needs serious introspection. i bet the PDs there have painted portraits of themselves in their offices.

Some Ivy League programs are just as discriminatory towards DOs as the UC hospitals. Think H-A-H-V-A-H-D.

 

[Overlord]

I recently found that you have to pay $4000 to rotate in a non primary care program at U. Colorado in Denver if you're not from an LCME accredited school.

That was a big nope for me.

Yeah.....

 

[kenjixshadow]

x

 

[67552931811]

Nvm: don't care enough

 

[s5260205]

VSAS conveniently summarises the eligibility and requirement for each participating programs on their website (https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/vsas/119290/article_for_host_institutions.html). Very good resources to narrow down the school list for away rotations.

 

[JimmyB123]

Accidentally saw this thread, I'm bumping it so new DO students can see which program to stay away from.

I'd like to update that UC Davis EM does not take any DO student for away rotation.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/emergency/education/medstudent/courses.html

And Yale does not take DO students for rotation in all specialty. Source: VSAS and

http://medicine.yale.edu/education/osa/opportunities/electives/eligibility.aspx

And University of Colorado charges $4,000 for any specialty rotation for out-of-state non-LCME accredited school and $2000 for instate (Rocky Vista).

I've seen UC Davis EM matches from the DO side. How are they accepting DOs but then not allowing them to rotate? Doesn't make any sense

 

[67552931811]

I've seen UC Davis EM matches from the DO side. How are they accepting DOs but then not allowing them to rotate? Doesn't make any sense

Every place she listed has DOs as residents. Who cares if you can't rotate there if you can match there...

 

[JimmyB123]

Every place she listed has DOs as residents. Who cares if you can't rotate there if you can match there...

Yeah exactly! Why do these schools impose these regulations on electives even though they are taking DOs into their residency programs?

 

[SLC]

Yeah exactly! Why do these schools impose these regulations on electives even though they are taking DOs into their residency programs?

I'm not sure exactly, but given it's Yale and the UC system, they probably get more VSAS apps than thy can deal with and have to find ways to limit them somehow. Being LCME schools, perhaps limiting things to LCME is one easy way to do it?

 

[JimmyB123]

I'm not sure exactly, but given it's Yale and the UC system, they probably get more VSAS apps than thy can deal with and have to find ways to limit them somehow. Being LCME schools, perhaps limiting things to LCME is one easy way to do it?

Yeah makes sense. As a newly matriculating DO student, I almost wish AOA residencies would stay as such and there was no merger....so we didn't have to deal with this crap. *wishful thinking*

 

[NurWollen]

I hope that after the merger, LCME/ACGME schools and residencies realize that they are the official path to GME for osteopathic medical students. While I support the merger, I understand the concerns of some that we will continue to be treated as an 'other' by the only organization that represents our post-graduate opportunities.

Listing DO students as 'US Seniors' on ERAS would go a long way to helping mitigate this. If not that, at the very least, separate categories should be created for US Allopathic seniors, US Osteopathic seniors, and Independent Applicants. We shouldn't be grouped in with IMGs when we ourselves are constituents of the ACGME.