Organic Chemistry: How Hard Is it?

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What makes Organic Chemistry so difficult that studious and smart people literally fail and basically can't apply to med school? Is it the combination of the hard classes that tend to all fall in the same semester? Is OChem just that hard?

Somebody who doesn't consider themselves an absolute chem genius, please tell me about your Ochem experience.


Assuming most medical school applicants have a 3.4+ GPA, it really scares me that people who get As are getting Ds and Fs in Ochem.


Right now I have a 3.6 GPA, which I would like to boost to 3.7 by the time I apply to ensure at least one US med school acceptance. I am academically dedicated and I consider myself slightly smarter than my average classmate at UCSD.

Should I be expecting some Cs or possibly worse:eek:?
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Some people love it, some people hate it. Until you no longer walk into lecture trying to make order of it (like you would in Gen chem) you are going to do poorly. Its abstract thinking and its not purely mathematical. There isn't a lot of memorize and regurgitate, but rather some memorization with a whole lot of understanding.

Remember this, pushing electrons can be soothing. ;)

Of all my chemistry courses (orgo, general, biochem, inorganic, physical) I would say orgo ranks in my top 2 in terms of doing well. Its a break from "plug and chug."
 
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I found organic to be fun...every problem was like a puzzle... (the synthesis and reaction questions that is)

But the worst part is predicting Sn2/Sn1/E2/E1...
 
People complain too much about orgo. I think this is because many people go about it the wrong way; they see lots of reactions, and think, "memorize!" when they should be recognizing the patterns. Get a feel for where the electrons are going, do a bunch of practice problems, and yes, remember what tools (reactions) you have available, and you should be fine.

Edit: As for predicting SN1/E1 and SN2/E2 reactions, this is almost always very easy once you get the concepts down. Usually (at least in my experience) the professor will not give you borderline cases, and so if you understand why each reaction occurs more under some set of conditions, you're golden.
 
never heard this..

I didn't do very well in G. Chem but I loved o-chem. I was scared that I would struggle but O-chem is much more conceptual rather than mathematical and I really liked it.

I don't know why people would have trouble learning o-chem, maybe a bad teacher or something? Our teacher was awesome; I felt like the class was pretty easy and straightforward.
 
If you learn by mere straight memorizing, chances are you will suck at ochem and probably mcat too... Some people are called smart because they can memorize like in bio but then they bomb ochem exams... I thought ochem was challenging but fun, it's like solving puzzles...
 
coldweatherblue said:
never heard this..

I didn't do very well in G. Chem but I loved o-chem. I was scared that I would struggle but O-chem is much more conceptual rather than mathematical and I really liked it.

I don't know why people would have trouble learning o-chem, maybe a bad teacher or something? Our teacher was awesome; I felt like the class was pretty easy and straightforward.
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Urban legend says that ochem is the thing under your bed coming to eat your heart at midnight.
 
Like another poster said, Ochem is like a bunch of puzzles and you should be able to use your intuition to solve the problems. It really isn't that bad, even though the average grade in my course was like in the mid 50s. As long as you studied, and study to understand, rather than memorize, you should be fine. It is actually kind of fun.
 
This is the reality on the difficultiy of Organic Chemistryl... It depends on your professor.

/thread.
 
cliquesh said:
Like another poster said, Ochem is like a bunch of puzzles and you should be able to use your intuition to solve the problems. It really isn't that bad, even though the average grade in my course was like in the mid 50s. As long as you studied, and study to understand, rather than memorize, you should be fine. It is actually kind of fun.
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Sounds like my class' test average...98/175. :eek:
Mine: 38/175 :scared:

The really crappy thing about the tests is there are fill in boxes that either ask for the starting materials, reactants or products of a certain reaction. If that isn't memorization, than I don't know what is. So that and nomenclature are really the only craps that you need to memorize. I think the hardest part is predicting reactions (i.e. Sn2 v E2, Sn1 v E1), or knowing when syn or anti addition is necessary.

OP: Heres hoping that you didn't throw all your stereochemistry knowledge from Gen Chem out the window. You will need it...
 
Arc that is memorization, but you should know in theory that ozonolysis with Zn metal will cleave double carbon bonds into ketones or aldehydes, for example. Knowing trends is something you have to memorize too: boiling point increases with saturated chains (I hope I'm not wrong ;)) but rote memorization isn't needed. Just saying, of course. No attack on you.

By rote memorization I mean you should not memorize the 20 steps of converting a cyclohexane into a cyclohexene and then doing ozonolysis on said double bond just to reduce it with NaBH4 and then do other things to it.

On a sidenote, I got so bored over the summer at work (I did telephone interviewing :x) that I would draw out compounds and just submit them to whatever I could think of. That organic chemistry got me through some boring nights. However, my boss eventually told me to "stop drawing" and I knew there was no way to explain what it was to a GED recipient (not knocking).
 
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Aesculapius said:
People complain too much about orgo. I think this is because many people go about it the wrong way; they see lots of reactions, and think, "memorize!" when they should be recognizing the patterns. Get a feel for where the electrons are going, do a bunch of practice problems, and yes, remember what tools (reactions) you have available, and you should be fine.

Edit: As for predicting SN1/E1 and SN2/E2 reactions, this is almost always very easy once you get the concepts down. Usually (at least in my experience) the professor will not give you borderline cases, and so if you understand why each reaction occurs more under some set of conditions, you're golden.
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Then again, you could have a professor who deliberately chooses borderline cases on examinations :mad:
 
signature16 said:
What makes Organic Chemistry so difficult that studious and smart people literally fail and basically can't apply to med school? Is it the combination of the hard classes that tend to all fall in the same semester? Is OChem just that hard?

Somebody who doesn't consider themselves an absolute chem genius, please tell me about your Ochem experience.


Assuming most medical school applicants have a 3.4+ GPA, it really scares me that people who get As are getting Ds and Fs in Ochem.


Right now I have a 3.6 GPA, which I would like to boost to 3.7 by the time I apply to ensure at least one US med school acceptance. I am academically dedicated and I consider myself slightly smarter than my average classmate at UCSD.

Should I be expecting some Cs or possibly worse:eek:?
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I'm wrapping up Ochem 1. From what Ive noticed from people in my class and class w/other profs, there are basically four things that lead people to fail.

1. They don't put enough time into it. This is a big one.
2. The put time into it but they have visualization problems. This can be remedied to some extent with model kits. Sometimes even those don't work.
3. They don't have a strong fundamental basis. Despite what some SDNers say, your knowledge of gen chem 1 and 2 will help you.
4. The professor blows. Easy solution: ratemyprofessor.

Ochem is a class you need to completely throw yourself into to succeed. Go into it knowing this and you'll do fine.
 
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at my school with my professor the class is easy. 85-87% is an A and I have well over that. It depends on how you learn I think. The downside is Physics is killing me.
 
Organic Chemistry feels more like a language than anything else to me... which would also explain the difficulty many people have with it.
 
some people like it, some people hate it. I thought it was fun. Just stay on top of the material and practice problems everyday and you will be fine (easier said than done for most people).
 
I HATED OChem...but, I never went to class and tried to teach myself from the book. Definitely DON'T do that. When I relearned it for the MCAT I just learned from notes and it went fine. Unless you want to major in chemistry, don't depend on the book - it's too detailed and you'll waste your time. Good luck!
 
ahaydt said:
Arc that is memorization, but you should know in theory that ozonolysis with Zn metal will cleave double carbon bonds into ketones or aldehydes, for example. Knowing trends is something you have to memorize too: boiling point increases with saturated chains (I hope I'm not wrong ;)) but rote memorization isn't needed. Just saying, of course. No attack on you.
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And Elimination reactions go into three steps, and like bases, Sn reactions need a decent nucleophilie, electronegative atoms cause bigger shifts on NMR graphs, etc. Its necessary but its still memorization. Now trying to memorize individual steps is just stupid.
 
It's been alright. I've had some times where I went WTF!!!! but I pulled an A+ in O Chem 1 and have a 99.7% average in O Chem 2 now. I think this is due to the fact that I put a LOT of time into it and also do a lot of extra problems beyond what's required for the class.
 
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jochi1543 said:
It's been alright. I've had some times where I went WTF!!!! but I pulled an A+ in O Chem 1 and have a 99.7% average in O Chem 2 now. I think this is due to the fact that I put a LOT of time into it and also do a lot of extra problems beyond what's required for the class.
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That is the key. Just do a bunch of problems. I never felt like it was a lot of memorization. Just know the basics. Saying that the basics is memorization is like saying that you have to memorize 2+2=4. You KNOW 2+2=4, you don't memorize it. I don't know if that made sense, but that's how I see it.

And to Arc, I took O-Chem 2 years ago with Vollhardt. Who is teaching this semester?
 
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Ok well these responses are making me feel better.

I'm a studier and I'm definiteily somebody who learns by understanding concepts and not by memorizing...thats how I got to the university I'm at right now anyway.


Thanks again for the responses.
 
Be afraid, Be very afraid!!! Not really, just put int he time and youll do fine.
 
it really depends on how your mind works, for example I felt it was really easy but many people struggle with it, but i agree with the above posts that practicing many problems is your best way to do well
 
seraph524 said:
I found organic to be fun...every problem was like a puzzle... (the synthesis and reaction questions that is)

But the worst part is predicting Sn2/Sn1/E2/E1...
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Personally, SN1 and 2 and E1 and 2 aren't something I'm struggling with. I did much worse trying to remember the outcomes of oxymercuration, hydroboronation, etc. with alkenes and alkynes.
 
badasshairday said:
That is the key. Just do a bunch of problems. I never felt like it was a lot of memorization. Just know the basics. Saying that the basics is memorization is like saying that you have to memorize 2+2=4. You KNOW 2+2=4, you don't memorize it. I don't know if that made sense, but that's how I see it.

And to Arc, I took O-Chem 2 years ago with Vollhardt. Who is teaching this semester?
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Ellman. I didn't know Vollhardt taught here.
 
rms435 said:
I HATED OChem...but, I never went to class and tried to teach myself from the book. Definitely DON'T do that. When I relearned it for the MCAT I just learned from notes and it went fine. Unless you want to major in chemistry, don't depend on the book - it's too detailed and you'll waste your time. Good luck!
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I think this is crumby (crummy?) advice.
 
badasshairday said:
haha, aren't you guys using his book?

He was a cool though, cuz he had a ferrari testarossa and wrote me a LOR.
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No, but then again, I'm not in Chem 3A. I'm in 112A.
Using Loudon BTW.
 
Arc said:
No, but then again, I'm not in Chem 3A. I'm in 112A.
Using Loudon BTW.
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O man, no wonder you say O-Chem is crazy killer. Are you majoring in Chem? Good luck with that, my roomate back in the day was taking it. It's pretty difficult. Just try to do a crazy amount of problems. The biggest difference I remember was that you guys have a bunch of CRAZY mechanisms.
 
ahaydt said:
I think this is crumby (crummy?) advice.
Click to expand...

It's crummy.

I guess it depends on how you learn. I just know that trying to teach myself from the book left me knowing a lot of useless details and none of the important concepts... But maybe it's b/c Vollhardt never graced me with his presence...
 
badasshairday said:
O man, no wonder you say O-Chem is crazy killer. Are you majoring in Chem? Good luck with that, my roomate back in the day was taking it. It's pretty difficult. Just try to do a crazy amount of problems. The biggest difference I remember was that you guys have a bunch of CRAZY mechanisms.
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All I can say is describing this class' difficulty is like driving a curvy road. As soon as you get confident some nasty turn rears it ugly head.
 
Ochem can deff. be hard, but I think a big factor is your attitude.

It is "socially acceptable" to do bad in Organic, so people kind of let themselves do bad sometimes.

You (hopefully) wouldn't let yourself go into a english/psych/spanish (whatever class you consider not super hard) class w/ lots of unanswered questions about the concept, but people will do that w/ Organic because "It's organic, everyone is confused."

And if you got a C on a *class other than organic chemistry* test, you'd be liek "what happened here?" and kick it into gear studying from then on, but w/ ochem people tend to say "well, it was organic, everyone does bad in organic. I didn't do as bad as some people..." etc...


Study your notes everyday after class, do every practice problem, and make a list of any questions you have along the way, and you'll do fine:)

Good luck!
 
signature16 said:
What makes Organic Chemistry so difficult that studious and smart people literally fail and basically can't apply to med school? Is it the combination of the hard classes that tend to all fall in the same semester? Is OChem just that hard?

Somebody who doesn't consider themselves an absolute chem genius, please tell me about your Ochem experience.


Assuming most medical school applicants have a 3.4+ GPA, it really scares me that people who get As are getting Ds and Fs in Ochem.


Right now I have a 3.6 GPA, which I would like to boost to 3.7 by the time I apply to ensure at least one US med school acceptance. I am academically dedicated and I consider myself slightly smarter than my average classmate at UCSD.

Should I be expecting some Cs or possibly worse:eek:?
Click to expand...

Here is my advice and take it as you will. Any time I have ever given serious advice on this forum it gets over looked and people only reply to trolls or thread high jacking. But back on topic... I am almost done with my first semester of Organic at a top 100 university. I did so so in chem 1 and got an A- in chem 2. As you know those classes are a lot of math and things can tend to not be interconnected very well (at least not presented that way in the curriculum). For me, organic seems to be telling a story. It's all interconnected and you have to treat it that way. If you don't pay attention and get the basics down in the beginning then you are 100% screwed! Make sure to do the reading and assigned problems, go to office hours if you dont get something. For me studying in groups helps a lot. A friend of mine and I will actually just sit writing out reactions and discussing them and trying to find an answer together. This helps a lot! Don't go into the class expecting it to be really way too hard. Just treat it like any other class, but realize it's a lot of work compared to most other classes you have taken. I have taken this approach and I have made it through the semester with A's on my exams. I still have the final (the real test) but I will tell you that I'm more scared of my calc. final then my organic final. I have put in the work and feel like I really understand the material. If you put in the effort, don't get discouraged, and approach the class in an intelligent manor from the beginning then you will be fine. DONT WORRY! :thumbup:
 
WantsThisBad said:
For me studying in groups helps a lot. A friend of mine and I will actually just sit writing out reactions and discussing them and trying to find an answer together. This helps a lot!
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This can not be emphasized enough. If you only heed one bit of advice in all your Orgo travels, listen to what WantsThisBad just said.
 
organic to me is learning a foreing language, you have your basic vocab (nomenclature) and your reactions of those compounds (like conjugation in a foreign language). orgo 2 for me is way easier because its basically just carbonyl chemistry and its reactions with mechanisms and the easiest material which is NMR spectroscopy. the syntheis problems on a test where they give you a starting product and final product and tell you to fill in all necessary reagents seems to be the killer on grades. if you really go over your notes each day and say "well phosphorous ylides convert carbonyls to alkenes and jones reagent converts primary alcohols to carboxylic acids" you'll do fine. and ALWAYS find similarities in different mechanisms because it will be easier to recall them on tests
 
My ochem classes were hard. The average grades were somewhere in the realm of 50-55% on most tests and half the class is always bound to fail even after the initial half dropped out.

Having said that, I did well and I think that there are worse classes IMO.

How did I do well? In short, I constantly tried to visualize everything. After a while I just saw the reactions happening in my head for the most part. The mechanisms just made sense. Make sure you understand very basic concepts very well; very simple things like understanding electronegativity can make a huge difference when determining the product of a reaction. If you understand everything from the beginning of Ochem 1 to the end of Ochem 2, you're set if you have to take the ACS.

And, IMHO, OchemI is harder than OchemII. I did only a small fraction of the homework for OchemII. Overall, if you consider cramming starting a few days before the test begins, its crammable.

What classes are worse? Well, I'm taking a Molecular Cell Biology class right now that puts ochem to shame.
 
For me it was a bad professor in Organic Chemistry 1 that made the experience bad. I barely made it out of there alive and honestly got nothing from it...

Now that I am 4 days from being done with Organic Chemistry 2 I can say it is really learning reactions and reagents and going with it. I am doing MUCH better- currently entering the final needing right at an 88 to keep an A.. And in all honesty almost all the points I have missed on a test were concepts from Organic 1 that I never got.
 
I tried every study technique there is for organic chem. I honestly had an awful professor for the first semester & took it elsewhere the second semester....I don't think I'll ever understand it all & maybe it's b/c I learn by memorization. Loved gen chem though. Got a 97 & 98 on my genchem 1 & 2 finals, respectively. But an A- in ochem 1 & C+ in ochem 2. First grades that dropped my 4.0 down and haven't had it drop since either. Also had a 4.2 in HS. Go figure- I really really tried to be interested in ochem, I'm not sure what my problem is with it. But it's the only thing that's ever made me question my major & career choice. I wish I knew everyone's secret to doing well in it.

I guess just try to have a good attitude about it-it's not so awful for everyone. And don't give up:thumbup:
 
Not hard at all... but i guess it depends on the teacher and school
 
Organic Chemistry is not hard... you just have to find a way to approach it that will benefit you. It's either a hit or miss, you either get it or you don't. If you find a way to study for it effectively you should be fine.
 
rms435 said:
I HATED OChem...but, I never went to class and tried to teach myself from the book. Definitely DON'T do that. When I relearned it for the MCAT I just learned from notes and it went fine. Unless you want to major in chemistry, don't depend on the book - it's too detailed and you'll waste your time. Good luck!
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If you didn't go to class, what notes did you learn it from? Did a prep course give you notes or something? :confused:
 
Spin said:
If you didn't go to class, what notes did you learn it from? Did a prep course give you notes or something? :confused:
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Yeah, my prep course taught concepts in class so I just learned from those notes. Of course, you don't need to know mechanisms on the MCAT and those were always hardest for me, so that probably made it easier the second time around.
 
I'm currently about to finish Orgo I and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I find looking at mechanisms really fun and it's important to see patterns with different reactions. The main point of Orgo is to make stuff from other stuff by adding a few select reagents. However, knowing the basics like electron denisty, steric hinderence and factors of stability are really key. Also Orgo is basically all acid base reactions so it's not really complicated stuff. I supplemented my studying with Orgo as a second language and it really did help understand those key concepts. I'm not sure how hard Orgo II is but I'm looking forward to it.
 
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