Nope. But they're really selective as to who they interview if you don't rotate. Loved their PD. Not sure there's another PD in the country who works harder to get the best people for his program year in and year out.
Osteopathic EM programs
- Thread starter nutka1111
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Nope. But they're really selective as to who they interview if you don't rotate. Loved their PD. Not sure there's another PD in the country who works harder to get the best people for his program year in and year out.
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They will basically only interview you if you rotate or if you have strong ties to SoCal and/or Western U. 80-90% of their interviewees rotated.
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ahhh I figured it was going to be something like that. I have neither so I guess I shouldn't be surprised
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Not to derail the thread, but I've never understood this attitude on the part of AOA PDs. It undermines the statement that a DO is as good as an MD (which is something I agree with in the aggregate) by saying that they essentially don't trust the education of DO schools unless they can see that person's performance with their own eyes, or know the people who trained them. I'm not sure why the AOA (or DO schools in general who stand to lose the most from this attitude) haven't taken a stand against this behavior. I mean, most ACGME PDs (setting aside the ones with outdated but still strongly held anti-DO biases) don't demand this of DO applicants, why should the DO programs?
[/derail]
my likely under-informed 2cents: i've always interpreted do programs requiring prospective applicants to rotate at their program in order to be interviewed as indicative of the program's opinion of themselves versus the program's opinion of any individual applicant or do students in general. i think they do this because they know that to many applicants, for many reasons, they are less desirable places to train as compared to many/most acgme programs. i think this line of thinking is the same reason the aoa places the match a month earlier, has a separate match, etc. they are using bureaucratic tools to steer some students, perhaps the more risk averse students, into aoa programs.
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See...I think that's even worse quite honestly. They're basically saying that they won't interview you if you're not willing to spend $1-3K for the privilege (cost of travel for both rotation and interview, housing, etc).
[/seriously (maybe) done with derailing...sorry (not really)]
[/seriously (maybe) done with derailing...sorry (not really)]
When I rotated at Arrowhead, the purpose of them strongly encouraging a rotation was two fold. One...they want to make sure you are right for their program (obvious...). Two...they want you to be sure that the program is right for you. Their program is not for everybody. Different from any other I interviewed or rotated at. Living in SoCal also is not for everyone. They don't want the person who just wants to be an EM physician. They want the person who wants to be an EM physician AND is passionate about their program. They also want to be sure that you will stay for the four years if selected.
Does it stink when a program rarely interviews students who don't interview there? Absolutely. However, in Arrowhead's case, it's not really their fault. Students are the ones who make this program so competitive. Arrowhead always has more students request rotations than there are spots, Many of the students who request rotations are in the top tier of their classes at their respective schools. Many students end up doing more than one month there. They honestly don't really need to interview someone who doesn't rotate there.
And the way they pick their residents works. Probably one of the most cohesive groups I met on the rotation trail.
Does it stink when a program rarely interviews students who don't interview there? Absolutely. However, in Arrowhead's case, it's not really their fault. Students are the ones who make this program so competitive. Arrowhead always has more students request rotations than there are spots, Many of the students who request rotations are in the top tier of their classes at their respective schools. Many students end up doing more than one month there. They honestly don't really need to interview someone who doesn't rotate there.
And the way they pick their residents works. Probably one of the most cohesive groups I met on the rotation trail.
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Another issue with Arrowhead that I think contributes to this is geography. Many programs want to train docs that will eventually practice in the region (growing their reputation, spreading their network, etc.) and this is especially true with Arrowhead being the only program on the West Coast. They're the only ones churning out AOA-trained ER docs out here, and they're not going to bother giving a spot to someone who's going to turn around and go back to Texas or somewhere. Their apparent requirements (Rotation or SoCal ties) both demonstrate a commitment to California livin'...
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Although Arrowhead started the discussion, that wasn't my point. It's not like this is unique to that program, or even EM as a specialty in the AOA world.
And there are easier ways to create a referral base.
And there are easier ways to create a referral base.
have to agree with gutonc. does arrowhead want a good fit that will stick around for the duration of training and possibly longer? sounds like it. does literally every other program want that? of course. does arrowhead think their program is unique and their location may not be for everyone? sounds like it. does literally every other program sell the unique qualities of their program and location? of course. now, i have no beef with arrowhead. didn't even apply there. i think do3 hit the nail on the head. why does arrowhead largely get away with limiting their interview pool to students that rotated with them? because they can. they found their niche. they don't shoot too high or too low with the people they interview. and the mutually assured destruction philosophy among aoa programs means they can be confident in their strategy because seemingly 9 out of 10 of the programs they are competing with for applicants do the same thing and students only have so many rotations before rank lists are due.
I know our program basically requires you to rotate as we want a good fit with the rest of us, plus we're reaching a point where we can't even interview all of our rotators as a courtesy. The very few we have taken in the last 5-10 years without rotating apparently didn't get along with everyone well despite being all star applicants.
For whatever reason this seems to be pretty common among DO programs.
For whatever reason this seems to be pretty common among DO programs.
everglide, out of curiosity, do you know the ratio of interviews:spots at your program? anecdotal evidence i've heard seems to suggest that aoa programs eschew the 10:1+ ratio (w/ smaller or less competitive programs bumping that ratio towards 15:1) that i've seen many acgme programs report via freida, etc, with some aoa programs i've heard going as low of 5:1.
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I know it is still fairly early for allopathic programs and the interview cycle, but would it be worth it to email osteopathic programs that I have not heard back from and express my interest in interviewing?
Hey all,
I had been waiting for my LORs to arrive and put off submitting my AOA eras until september 19. I learned a little late that it was ok not to have the letters in and now I am thinking I have hurt myself pretty good in terms of getting EM invites. I applied to mostly all the programs in NY, NJ, PA, FL, and a few others. I had my first interview yesterday, but have no other offers, and the interview I received was at a place I rotated at and set it up while I was there.
I have a pretty good application and above average scores. I actually feel somewhat confident that I will be ranked high with the program I interviewed with, but I am just looking for some feedback as to about how long after you submit will you hear back from programs?
Thanks everyone
I had been waiting for my LORs to arrive and put off submitting my AOA eras until september 19. I learned a little late that it was ok not to have the letters in and now I am thinking I have hurt myself pretty good in terms of getting EM invites. I applied to mostly all the programs in NY, NJ, PA, FL, and a few others. I had my first interview yesterday, but have no other offers, and the interview I received was at a place I rotated at and set it up while I was there.
I have a pretty good application and above average scores. I actually feel somewhat confident that I will be ranked high with the program I interviewed with, but I am just looking for some feedback as to about how long after you submit will you hear back from programs?
Thanks everyone
6
607955
You should at least have gotten invites from all the places you rotated at assuming you did an audition at more than one place by now.
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Are there any programs that are still actively sending out interview invites? And has anyone heard from Coney Island?
Has anyone interviewed at Mt Sinai in Miami? It looks like their residents are mostly NOVA/LECOM grads. Only an OMS-III but wondering about my chances coming from the Northeast. Any overall impressions welcome too- haven't really seen any good reviews of this program.
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Loved the PD, love the curriculum, and loved the Hospital. You need good scores and/or a strong app to get an invite there it seems. I had them ranked highly.
Good scores. 550+ or are we talking 600+ here. Just gauging competitiveness for next year here.
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I would say probably closer to 600 on one of the steps. Of the three people I know that interviewed there had between 650-high 700s but that might be a fluke.
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+1
audition rotations fill up fast so definitely start contacting programs early (I believe people were already calling in January of their 3rd year). I also know they only interviewed about 50 people this year
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Yep 50-55. Plus good benefits if you have a family ( insurance and childcare) but finding somewhere affordable near the hospital is tough.
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I auditioned there. Being from the northeast won't be an issue. It's great program with awesome faculty/staff and residents. They are looking for competitive applicants but doing an audition will definitely help. It was a great rotation....
Yep! Received an email and a phone call.
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Anyone have any info on the Joplin program? Didn't read through everything but skimmed.
Also, I am not sure this is the place to ask, but I will anyway. I am a 3rd year DO student interested in EM. I have a 217 USMLE and a 558 COMLEX. At first I was thinking about working to rock step 2 but now I am thinking of saving the effort, work on doing well enough on level 2 and applying to a few ACGME programs (I am from Iowa so mainly the midwest programs) and focusing more of my efforts on DO EM programs. I have a few decent ECs, but being a father and working the first two years of school on the weekend, my class rank is bottom half and i have zero research. My school has high standards for honoring, so i haven't honored any rotations but my comments are all "great work ethic, eager to learn, above average knowledge, motivated, etc." My big question is, does this sound like a good plan or should I really go out of my way to take step 2 and focus more on allo programs? Like I said, I am from Iowa and want to stay in this region at the end of all of this. I just want to be a decent doc, but I am older and my "save the world" phase is behind me. I want to be done before my 3 kids are in college. thanks!
Also, I am not sure this is the place to ask, but I will anyway. I am a 3rd year DO student interested in EM. I have a 217 USMLE and a 558 COMLEX. At first I was thinking about working to rock step 2 but now I am thinking of saving the effort, work on doing well enough on level 2 and applying to a few ACGME programs (I am from Iowa so mainly the midwest programs) and focusing more of my efforts on DO EM programs. I have a few decent ECs, but being a father and working the first two years of school on the weekend, my class rank is bottom half and i have zero research. My school has high standards for honoring, so i haven't honored any rotations but my comments are all "great work ethic, eager to learn, above average knowledge, motivated, etc." My big question is, does this sound like a good plan or should I really go out of my way to take step 2 and focus more on allo programs? Like I said, I am from Iowa and want to stay in this region at the end of all of this. I just want to be a decent doc, but I am older and my "save the world" phase is behind me. I want to be done before my 3 kids are in college. thanks!
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Joplin is very competitive. Must rotate for an interview. Good program
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I had very similar step 1/comlex 1 scores as you. I felt the same way and ended up not taking usmle 2. I really regret it, even though I got a very good COMLEX 2 score. I recommend studying hard for it and taking it if you really want ACGME. I ended up still matching but I feel I missed out on some interviews.
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I rotated at Joplin a few months ago. As someone said above, they don't do interviews and they will only consider you if you rotate there. Setting up a rotation was easy though (just email the coordinator). They take 2 residents a year, the hospital is nice and the program is pretty excellent. Their resident in-service exam scores are some of the highest in the country actually. As a student they let me do a TON! reducing dislocations, intubating, central lines... Literally my first day I did one of each of these procedures pretty much by myself with them overseeing it. Great rotation and they provide housing.
As for your second question, TAKE USMLE 2!!! I took both the comlex and usmle for both steps/levels, and it really opened up a lot of doors for me. While I have met a few residents in ACGME programs that only took the comlex level 1 and 2 (never took the USMLE), this is not the case everywhere (Michigan is one of the only places I have heard of ACGME programs doing this). I personally did not do very well on my USMLE exams (below average on both at a 212 and 227). However I did around your comlex score on both levels. To be honest, in many of the ACGME interviews I went on, my interviewers would tell me that my USMLE scores were fine. A lot of the time they just wanted to know that I passed both of them and they didn't really care that I was below average. Those that knew what the comlex meant would also mention that my comlex was solid. You don't need an amazing score on the comlex to get AOA interviews... Its a crap shoot on getting AOA interviews anyway. I have friends that applied to around 20 AOA EM programs and only got 1-2 interviews with comlex scores above 600. AOA programs look for other things on the application in my opinion.
All of that being said, I would only take the USMLE 2 if you think you can increase your score by at least 5 to 10 points over step 1. Basically, I would not forgo taking USMLE 2 even if you are going to concentrate on AOA EM programs. I know this process is difficult, especially if you have kids. However, not doing USMLE 2 after already taking USMLE 1 would be a disservice to your application and yourself. You should try your best to finish strong.
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Thank you! Will plan on taking it. And thanks for the info on Joplin. Appreciate it!
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What are you going to do when it comes to making your rank list? I looked all through this thread and didn't see a review for Doctors. Have no idea what I'm going to do.
Also, is the letter from Mount Sinai an actual paper letter or is it email? Should I stop stalking my mailman?
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Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out which AOA programs would be a good match for me (in terms of how competitive I am, if they only take students native to that state, etc), but all of the previous posts (at the beginning of this thread) are about 5 years old, and a good amount can change by then. Is there any chance someone would be willing to share their experiences about their audition rotations/interviews? I'd be especially interested in hearing about Michigan and Pennsylvania. Any chance someone might be able to help me out? Or if there is another thread that has this info, can someone redirect me?
Thanks in advance!
Thanks in advance!
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Care to name specific programs?
Here are my opinions of places I rotated or interviewed at. I've gotten 14 DO interviews and some MD ones so here are the ones I remember off the top of my head.
Lehigh - Easily the best resources available of any of the DO places. Cafeteria is amazing. Sim Lab is great. Rotating here guarantees you an interview
Aria - Great rotation, residents are great, learned and did a lot. In a transition with lots of locum doctors. Combined programs very popular here (EM/IM, EM/FP)
Good Samaritan - Terrible Rotation, Most of the physicians don't interact with you. Learned nothing on this rotation. No one in my rotation group got an interview here. They do see lots of pathology though. Residents are really good at EM. They are overworked with 20 12hr shifts the first year. Above average program but would not recommend rotating here.
St. James - Rotated here, useless audition. They send you to their suburban campus where I rotated with interns in different specialities. I met no one from the program while doing shifts there (Only worked with one EM intern - no upper level residents). That being said, I heard that the Chicago campus is pretty good. I did not learn much on this rotation and it is impossible to showcase yourself on this rotation. Would not recommend rotating here but I feel like you would get good training here. The residents all were very good and knew their stuff during didactics. So definitely an above average program
Conemaugh - They structure didactics based on journal club which was really cool. They use simulation a lot and it is well structured. I loved the program except it is in a very very small town. Most residents are married or taken. Great program.
Sparrow - Lvl 1 trauma in Lansing. Dual Accredited. The only downside is that you don't work one on one with an attending. I thought it was a great program. Probably the most popular Michigan program.
Oakwood - Hidden gem for Michigan residency programs. Rotate at Oakwood Dearborn and Oakwood-Southshore which are both lvl 2 trauma centers. Dearborn is like a 70 bed ER. Abundant procedures. One of the second years talked about how he had already done 100 central lines. They rarely go through a shift without doing a procedure.
St Barnabas - Do all the IV's and Blood Draws. Pretty busy. I didn't see any great traumas when I rotated there my month. 3 residents per attending which I thought was overkill. I liked the location, others may not. Above average program
Rowan Stratford - Don't know much about it. I interviewed here and they had interns talk to us about the program. So they didn't have the insight that some of the upperclassman would. You have to take call throughout intern year regardless of what rotation you are on. Program has good reputation though. Location is right outside of Philadelphia
Rowan Inspira - Pretty new program. PD is cool and down to earth. I think they work 18 12hr shifts intern year. Cafeteria is mediocre.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Obviously not much detail for each of the hospitals. But I lost my notes from all of the interviews so I am basing it off memory.
Lehigh - Easily the best resources available of any of the DO places. Cafeteria is amazing. Sim Lab is great. Rotating here guarantees you an interview
Aria - Great rotation, residents are great, learned and did a lot. In a transition with lots of locum doctors. Combined programs very popular here (EM/IM, EM/FP)
Good Samaritan - Terrible Rotation, Most of the physicians don't interact with you. Learned nothing on this rotation. No one in my rotation group got an interview here. They do see lots of pathology though. Residents are really good at EM. They are overworked with 20 12hr shifts the first year. Above average program but would not recommend rotating here.
St. James - Rotated here, useless audition. They send you to their suburban campus where I rotated with interns in different specialities. I met no one from the program while doing shifts there (Only worked with one EM intern - no upper level residents). That being said, I heard that the Chicago campus is pretty good. I did not learn much on this rotation and it is impossible to showcase yourself on this rotation. Would not recommend rotating here but I feel like you would get good training here. The residents all were very good and knew their stuff during didactics. So definitely an above average program
Conemaugh - They structure didactics based on journal club which was really cool. They use simulation a lot and it is well structured. I loved the program except it is in a very very small town. Most residents are married or taken. Great program.
Sparrow - Lvl 1 trauma in Lansing. Dual Accredited. The only downside is that you don't work one on one with an attending. I thought it was a great program. Probably the most popular Michigan program.
Oakwood - Hidden gem for Michigan residency programs. Rotate at Oakwood Dearborn and Oakwood-Southshore which are both lvl 2 trauma centers. Dearborn is like a 70 bed ER. Abundant procedures. One of the second years talked about how he had already done 100 central lines. They rarely go through a shift without doing a procedure.
St Barnabas - Do all the IV's and Blood Draws. Pretty busy. I didn't see any great traumas when I rotated there my month. 3 residents per attending which I thought was overkill. I liked the location, others may not. Above average program
Rowan Stratford - Don't know much about it. I interviewed here and they had interns talk to us about the program. So they didn't have the insight that some of the upperclassman would. You have to take call throughout intern year regardless of what rotation you are on. Program has good reputation though. Location is right outside of Philadelphia
Rowan Inspira - Pretty new program. PD is cool and down to earth. I think they work 18 12hr shifts intern year. Cafeteria is mediocre.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Obviously not much detail for each of the hospitals. But I lost my notes from all of the interviews so I am basing it off memory.
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Trying to decide between Doctors and Lakeland.
Doctors: Definitely has the name/prestige thing going for it, good volume, lots of residents and other programs. Almost wondering if that means if this is more triage/consultant medicine. Big city. Cons: Not a trauma center, everything goes somewhere else. Good out rotations, PICU. Seems like they push osteopathic principles.
Lakeland: New program, good energy, lots of residents. Haven't graduated a class yet. Not a trauma center either, but they do get trauma themselves. Good out rotations at Cook, etc. New ED, part of MSU system. Liked the PD, seems like they have their act together. Cons: No track record, small town.
Which should I rank higher? Appreciate any insight you guys have on this, seeing as how I rotated at neither. It's hard to get a good feel for a place based on the interview day.
Doctors: Definitely has the name/prestige thing going for it, good volume, lots of residents and other programs. Almost wondering if that means if this is more triage/consultant medicine. Big city. Cons: Not a trauma center, everything goes somewhere else. Good out rotations, PICU. Seems like they push osteopathic principles.
Lakeland: New program, good energy, lots of residents. Haven't graduated a class yet. Not a trauma center either, but they do get trauma themselves. Good out rotations at Cook, etc. New ED, part of MSU system. Liked the PD, seems like they have their act together. Cons: No track record, small town.
Which should I rank higher? Appreciate any insight you guys have on this, seeing as how I rotated at neither. It's hard to get a good feel for a place based on the interview day.
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Thanks bbcnp!!
I was specifically looking at Oakwood, Henry Ford Macomb, St. Mary's Mercy and Lakeland. But any others that you would care to share would be appreciated!
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I was sent an email today
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Vineland too.
What did people hear from Einstein?
