Osteopathic EM programs

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H2DO said:
Here are a few general things I wish I had known at the beginning


  1. There are 4 dually accredited programs currently: Sparrow, Genesys, Albert Einstein, and Lehigh Valley (St Joseph's in NJ is working on it and might already be approved for next yr)
  2. If you are planning on applying to the dually accredited programs it WILL benefit you to have at least 2 SLORs. All other osteo programs don't care if it is a personal letter or a SLOR but I think more and more will start leaning towards the SLOR.
  3. Do your auditions (or at least one) at a place that everyone will know so when you have your letter it will be from a name everyone recognizes, this is often not easy (I didn't but I wish I had) but it will score you some major points if the PD you are interviewing with knows the PD that wrote your letter
  4. Advantages of dual vs just AOA accredited: for me personally, I felt like the AOA programs were mostly at very small community hospitals, had loose regulations, barely any emphasis on research, and were lacking a lot of resources that the dual programs have. Being under the scrutiny of ACGME and AOA makes for some very solid programs. It will also keep options open for fellowships and sometimes even jobs.
  5. Pick three programs you absolutely would love to be at and audition there. When you are auditioning make sure to make an appt with the PD to just talk about yourself before you leave. Casefiles for EM was pretty good, have your pocket books on hand, keep scissors in your pocket!
  6. Board scores matter but it really is program dependent. I did not get interviews from any of the smaller programs (2-3 residents/class) and I think those only invite people that rotate there
  7. if you plan on doing the ACGME match, rotate at at least one big name MD hospital and get a SLOR, USMLE scores do matter. (I took both USMLE and COMLEX and I felt like they always only focused on my USMLE)
  8. The residency coordinator is the best source of information, they are usually the residency mothers and are great at responding to emails. I always start with emailing them first with questions and they will forward your email to the appropriate person if they can't respond.
  9. Definitely take notes when interviewing because at the end it will all mesh together!
  10. it will be over before you know it!:thumbup:
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thank you for the advice! very helpful :)
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lilmil said:
Thank you for all the recent posts, it really helps and is greatly appreciated.

Does anyone know about the UNECOM/Kent program in Warwick, RI?

Is it looked down upon if I cancel an audition? Recent feedback has changed my interest and I want to use one of months of auditioning differently.
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I really liked Kent and ranked them highly. Solid PD, big program, nice part of the country. Low volume however.
 
Where is the osteo match thread? I figured someone would have started it by now. Hope you all got your wishes!
 
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I skimmed through this and didnt see a nice condensed commentary on this: so I'll bring the question up myself.

Generally what is the difference between the AOA and the ACGME EM residencies. Is there one? If ACGME is (generally) of higher quality, what AOA ones are of similar quality or at least what characteristics in AOA ones should I be looking for? If there isnt really a difference (obv not comparing a regular AOA spot to UofMaryland Shock Trauma) between the median AOA and mediam ACGME, then... umm... awesome.

I had been sort of planning to try to match ACGME EM for a while, but I have began rethinking that and considering putting my eggs into an AOA basket for EM. But I haven't done any research on the differences in the quality of the residecies since I was sort of tunnel visioning the ACGME spots.
 
DocEspana said:
I skimmed through this and didnt see a nice condensed commentary on this: so I'll bring the question up myself.

Generally what is the difference between the AOA and the ACGME EM residencies. Is there one? If ACGME is (generally) of higher quality, what AOA ones are of similar quality or at least what characteristics in AOA ones should I be looking for? If there isnt really a difference (obv not comparing a regular AOA spot to UofMaryland Shock Trauma) between the median AOA and mediam ACGME, then... umm... awesome.

I had been sort of planning to try to match ACGME EM for a while, but I have began rethinking that and considering putting my eggs into an AOA basket for EM. But I haven't done any research on the differences in the quality of the residecies since I was sort of tunnel visioning the ACGME spots.
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The two obvious differences are length of training - AOA all 4 years, ACGME mix of 3 / 4 year programs, and volume of patients.

Take two programs in the same city:

http://www.yorkhospital.edu/default.aspx?program=2

572 beds. 77K visits. Level I trauma. 70 bed ED. 30% admission rate.

http://www.emp.com/memorial-hospital

120 beds. 41k visits. Level II trauma. 20 bed ED. 15% admission rate.

Huge difference in resources, specialist access, volume and acuity of patients. Plus you have to train an extra year, which means one less year of attending level income. Where would you prefer to train?

I will say that the one DO place I interviewed at and seriously considered, Lehigh Valley, absolutely blew me away in the level of resources that rivaled anything I saw on the interview trail. In a backhanded way, their residency was so good that they became dually certified and began offering ACGME spots in the match.

My home program, Arrowhead Regional in Colton, CA, was also very strong.

http://www.armcemergency.org/

I think what it boils down to is the volume, acuity, and resources. You just aren't going to get the exposure and acuity you need in a 120 bed community hospital. Sorry.
 
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From my limited experience I gather that it really depends on the DO program. I get the picture that the ACGME programs are very standardized and offer great training. I think some of the DO programs easily fall into the same category of training but I'm just not sure some of the smaller more rural programs do. It would be interesting to know where they are doing their out rotations to gain exposure?

While they are on these out rotations do they function at the appropriate level or are they restricted so essentially the rotation doesn't serve the purpose?
 
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tkim said:
The two obvious differences are length of training - AOA all 4 years, ACGME mix of 3 / 4 year programs, and volume of patients.

Take two programs in the same city:

http://www.yorkhospital.edu/default.aspx?program=2

572 beds. 77K visits. Level I trauma. 70 bed ED. 30% admission rate.

http://www.emp.com/memorial-hospital

120 beds. 41k visits. Level II trauma. 20 bed ED. 15% admission rate.

Huge difference in resources, specialist access, volume and acuity of patients. Plus you have to train an extra year, which means one less year of attending level income. Where would you prefer to train?

I will say that the one DO place I interviewed at and seriously considered, Lehigh Valley, absolutely blew me away in the level of resources that rivaled anything I saw on the interview trail. In a backhanded way, their residency was so good that they became dually certified and began offering ACGME spots in the match.

My home program, Arrowhead Regional in Colton, CA, was also very strong.

http://www.armcemergency.org/

I think what it boils down to is the volume, acuity, and resources. You just aren't going to get the exposure and acuity you need in a 120 bed community hospital. Sorry.
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I would generally agree with the above. I think there are a handful of really good DO programs, a couple of OK ones, and a lot of crummy ones. One thing about the size of the hospital etc' though. Most of the smaller DO programs only take 3 or 4 residents for a 200 bed hospital, while the larger hospitals may take 12. Im not sure that either is better but its something to think about.
 
I had a quick question! What is the low/mid/high end comlex scores for do emergency medicine???? Does location affect the competitiveness for do em programs??? Will a strong traditional year help you get into em?? If anyone feels like pm that would be greatly appreciated as well.
 
Soccer171983 said:
I had a quick question! What is the low/mid/high end comlex scores for do emergency medicine???? Does location affect the competitiveness for do em programs??? Will a strong traditional year help you get into em?? If anyone feels like pm that would be greatly appreciated as well.
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I saw data somewhere that stated that the mean COMLEX for AOA EM was 493 (if I recall correctly). I can't remember the SD for the data but it was big (50+) so take that value for what it's worth. Not much statistical power.
 
jkmph said:
I saw data somewhere that stated that the mean COMLEX for AOA EM was 493 (if I recall correctly). I can't remember the SD for the data but it was big (50+) so take that value for what it's worth. Not much statistical power.
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I don't think they care too much about boards in DO EM programs. From what I gather, it's more important for PDs at DO programs, that you rotate at their institution, and land a good impression. As long as you didn't fail your boards, they'll take you.
 
H2DO said:
LAKELAND: I rotated there for neurology but not for EM. I did interview there and I think the other response to this is right on about it. I was just skeptical of it being a new program but it definitely seems like they have it together and a few years down it will definitely be a desirable program. I think they took 6 residents this year and there is talk of expanding the program. They were supposed to start a gen surgery residency this yr but put that on hold last minute. I think they will also be starting derm next year. Some things to keep in mind would be that even tho they are part of the statewide campus for MSU, it is a few hours away from Troy where they have their monthly lecture/labs so you will be watching those either via streaming or driving down there. It is a new program, so expect things to change and some things to be uncertain. There really isn't much in the area but the lake is absolutely gorgeous and Chicago is only 90 mins away. I really liked their PD and the residents all seemed great and very happy. They keep pretty busy because of the large area that they cover. They did not seem to mind if you didn't rotate there but it always does help.

Botsford: Did not rotate here so did not get an interview. I know they do take some students that don't rotate there. From what I have heard it can be malignant but again, personally don't know much about it.

Sparrow: This is one of the 4 dually accredited programs. They are very busy level I trauma center. They only take 4 DO students and take them through the NMS match. They are the only dual program that graduates their MD students in 3 yrs but I think that is because of MI's AOA internship requirement. The good thing about the 3 yr MD program was that it wasn't just Carribean students applying (as if often the case with the other dual programs, nothing against IMGs). Their residents go on to very respectable fellowships. You can moonlight starting second year. They also have their residents rotate an Ingham which is a much smaller community hospital, I liked this because then you get the experience of tertiary care as well as a small hospital. Ingham has more residents while Sparrow only has 3 residencies, I believe. You get to do your own procedures. Lansing itself isn't too shabby since they have MSU there.

I interviewed mostly in the MI area so let me know if you have any particular questions
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Sparrow takes DOs only from nms match and not AOA?

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Lol! Thanks for the heads up...

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Just wanted to give this thread a bump. If any fourth years are willing to post residency reviews from this cycle, that would be greatly beneficial to us third years looking to go into EM.

Thanks!
 
Im sure we will, but we have to get there first ;)

I'd love to incorporate these programs within the rest of the residency evals, too, instead of some long thread. Anyone else interested in helping out post-match?
 
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Anyone know much about this program or had personal experience there? The interview day was about 1.5 hours total including probably 1 hour of waiting for everyone to finish... and we only got to see 2 interns, so there wasn't much information to be gained. Soo anything basically would be of use!
 
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discharged said:
Anyone know much about this program or had personal experience there? The interview day was about 1.5 hours total including probably 1 hour of waiting for everyone to finish... and we only got to see 2 interns, so there wasn't much information to be gained. Soo anything basically would be of use!
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Same here, I walked out of that interview knowing absolutely nothing about them. I can't believe they didn't provide any more information about their program or even an introduction to the program itself, or some upper level residents to talk to us, especially since the interns appear to do their own thing completely separate from the rest of the residency.

That tour of the hospital they do one month in residency in was extremely useful.
 
Has anyone heard of any new DO EM programs in the works for 2013 or 2014? Thanks!
 
richnathan said:
Has anyone heard of any new DO EM programs in the works for 2013 or 2014? Thanks!
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Would like to hear the answer to that too. Nothing I can find on the AOA opportunities site but that info is often old and outdated so wouldn't surprise me too much if there was something that opened or that's opening in the next year that's not on the opportunities site.
 
Congratulations to everyone who matched this year! If you have a little time, I'd really appreciate any reviews on programs as I'll be applying for 2014. Thanks again!
 
Looking for people with experience with the following programs....thanks in advance!!

Memorial Hospital, York, PA

WVSOM/Ohio Valley Medical Center, Wheeling, WV

St Joseph Health Center, Warren, OH

South Pointe Hosp/NOEM Consortium, Warrensville Heights, OH
 
Hey I rotated at South Pointe in Warrensville Heights for my first rotation of third year, so take it with a grain of salt. The program director seemed like a really chill guy, and the rest of the docs seemed friendly and competent also. The ED wasn't anything special, but I think you see some pretty interesting pathology due to the patient population. All the residents seemed relatively happy with their training, a PGY4 had a job lined up in Charlotte, NC. Overall I think it would be a fine community place to train, but I didn't think to ask about a lot of other details that I would now. Hopefully some more people can add reviews to this and other programs.
 
richnathan said:
Hey I rotated at South Pointe in Warrensville Heights for my first rotation of third year, so take it with a grain of salt. The program director seemed like a really chill guy, and the rest of the docs seemed friendly and competent also. The ED wasn't anything special, but I think you see some pretty interesting pathology due to the patient population. All the residents seemed relatively happy with their training, a PGY4 had a job lined up in Charlotte, NC. Overall I think it would be a fine community place to train, but I didn't think to ask about a lot of other details that I would now. Hopefully some more people can add reviews to this and other programs.
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Thanks for the reply! Do you happen to know the shift structure for interns there IE is it 12's or 10's and how many shifts interns do/month while on EM?
 
I want to say 20 12 hr shifts as intern, decreasing to 16 12's fourth year during EM months.
 
If anyone could do some reviews for Grandview Medical Center, Doctors Hospital and any of the Cleveland programs that would be great. Thanks!
 
I trained at St. John Westshore in Cleveland. Msg me for more info if you want it.
 
Can anybody provide info on the programs in Morgantown, WV and Tulsa, OK?
 
Second the Cleveland programs.. Anyone know much about Summa Western Reserve? I have found things about the other Cleveland programs, but cannot find a thing on this one..
 
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Any update on Port St. Lucie?
 
Is there any consensus about which programs are considered the "best" regarding quality of training, acuity, location, etc?
 
I would also like to know about Tulsa EM?
 
tkim said:
Lehigh Valley was impressive.
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How does arrowhead stack up against Lehigh? What makes Lehigh stronger? I ask because it seems to be the consensus that Lehigh is the best AOA program.
 
There is a link in the FAQ section about "best programs" basically stating that all the accredited ACGME programs are good and there are no bad programs. Unfortunately, I don't think that this is necessarily true on the osteo side. When looking at a program I use the guidelines that Denver Health has on their website regarding "what to look for in an emergency medicine residency". The six points are:

1. critical mass of patients and pathology (min >30k visits, 3% critical care)
2. critical mass of residents (>6/class)
3. attending staff (>6 full time EM BC)
4. strong prehospital and ICU rotations
5. committment to academics
6. resident wellness

I think being well funded helps in many of these points and the dually accredited programs such as lehigh seem to have an advantage there.
 
Regarding combined programs, such as Lehigh Valley, does anyone have any insight into match participation? Are we required to rank them in the AOA match or can we participate in the ACGME match and rank them there?
 
jkmph said:
Regarding combined programs, such as Lehigh Valley, does anyone have any insight into match participation? Are we required to rank them in the AOA match or can we participate in the ACGME match and rank them there?
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Depends on the combined program. One of the dual accredited programs I got an interview at said i could only rank on the AOA side since that is the side I applied on to get an interview. Odd that one. Dont think it was a true dually accredited program. Lehigh just wanted to know which side of the match I was ranking them.
 
JeetKuneDo said:
How does arrowhead stack up against Lehigh? What makes Lehigh stronger? I ask because it seems to be the consensus that Lehigh is the best AOA program.
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I rotated at ARMC and interviewed at LVH. This was about six years ago, so things might have changed quite a bit. ARMC was more 'county', while LVH was more academic, but still the region's Level I trauma center. Comparable visits/year ~120k.

The benefits at LVH seemed better and more robust, though that might have changed as well. LVH pays $50k as a PGY-1, which is pretty good considering the cost of living is lower than in Socal. LVH, when I toured, had more toys - like fiberoptic carts - as in three or four of them scattered throughout the ED. There multiple cafeterias, and if I recall correctly, a bank and barber on site. ARMC has one cafeteria and the selection wasn't great. Tiny things, I guess, but if you live a large part of your life on site, it helps a lot.

LVH has academic tracks - tox, u/s, etc. Don't think ARMC has that but I'm sure you can put something together on your own.

I have no doubt that you will be exposed to lots of pathology if you go to ARMC. Very county, lots of trauma, lots of sick people. However, you will likely get comparable training, perhaps better pay and benefits, access to toys, a more comfortable time, if at LVH. LVH is the region's referral center so definitely a tertiary, if not a quaternary facility.

LVH also is dual-accredited, though I have no doubt that ARMC could do the same if they wanted to.

Lastly (or for some, firstly), it's location. If you want to stay in Socal, there you go.

I was offered an interview at ARMC which I declined since I wanted a 3 year ACGME, and was planning on going back to the East coast, but if I had to choose between the two, location notwithstanding, and had to pick a 4 year program, I'd go LVH.
 
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tkim said:
I rotated at ARMC and interviewed at LVH. This was about six years ago, so things might have changed quite a bit. ARMC was more 'county', while LVH was more academic, but still the region's Level I trauma center. Comparable visits/year ~120k.

The benefits at LVH seemed better and more robust, though that might have changed as well. LVH pays $50k as a PGY-1, which is pretty good considering the cost of living is lower than in Socal. LVH, when I toured, had more toys - like fiberoptic carts - as in three or four of them scattered throughout the ED. There multiple cafeterias, and if I recall correctly, a bank and barber on site. ARMC has one cafeteria and the selection wasn't great. Tiny things, I guess, but if you live a large part of your life on site, it helps a lot.

LVH has academic tracks - tox, u/s, etc. Don't think ARMC has that but I'm sure you can put something together on your own.

I have no doubt that you will be exposed to lots of pathology if you go to ARMC. Very county, lots of trauma, lots of sick people. However, you will likely get comparable training, perhaps better pay and benefits, access to toys, a more comfortable time, if at LVH. LVH is the region's referral center so definitely a tertiary, if not a quaternary facility.

LVH also is dual-accredited, though I have no doubt that ARMC could do the same if they wanted to.

Lastly (or for some, firstly), it's location. If you want to stay in Socal, there you go.

I was offered an interview at ARMC which I declined since I wanted a 3 year ACGME, and was planning on going back to the East coast, but if I had to choose between the two, location notwithstanding, and had to pick a 4 year program, I'd go LVH.
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Thanks for the review. I do wonder what's preventing armc from going dually accredited. Seems like it would be a popular program if it was.
 
CAMC: I know a little about it. It is WVU's Charleston campus and part of WVSOM statewide campus. Level 1 trauma center, covers the large area of southern WV and some of southwest VA and eastern KY (LifeFlight destination point). There are 3 hospitals all within a couple miles of one another: General, Memorial, and Women & Children's. Unfortunately I don't know anything about the rotation schedule, but I do know someone who's a resident there who loves it. Former PD Dr. Turner recently left, but I hear the new PD picked up where he left off and is doing fine. A downside is there are only 4 residents per class. I think this is a hidden gem among DO programs that people probably turn away from due to the location (which really isn't all that bad), but it's one of only a few full service research institutions offering DO residencies. Must rotate to get an interview!

Lehigh: I heard a lot of negativity about this place on the interview trail (MD & DO). A good friend of mine rotated there and hated it, so it was interesting to hear all these opinions, as it seems like an A+ program on the surface. Seems to have a malignant reputation in terms of attitude of faculty and style of teaching, not necessarily facilities or academics. I think they are a little more intense than most EM people are interested in dealing with day to day.



jkmph said:
Regarding combined programs, such as Lehigh Valley, does anyone have any insight into match participation? Are we required to rank them in the AOA match or can we participate in the ACGME match and rank them there?
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As far as I know...
Newark Beth Israel, Lehigh (unless you're a superstar), and Sparrow only rank DOs in the AOA match.

Albert Einstein ranks in both but takes the majority of their DOs in the ACGME match.

Not sure about Genesys.
 
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JeetKuneDo said:
Thanks for the review. I do wonder what's preventing armc from going dually accredited. Seems like it would be a popular program if it was.
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Nothing is preventing ARMC from going dual - it's already the only west coast DO EM program aside from Kingman which has low volume/acuity, so it's already a popular program, and there's no shortage of applicants.
 
Has anybody here rotated at Lehigh Valley that doesn't mind sharing their opinion. I am still torn between what match to do, but am leaning towards ACGME and am wondering if anybody has had any experience getting a SLOR out of one of these dual programs like Lehigh. I'm wondering if they are reluctant to do so as others have mentioned they prefer DO's to do the AOA match.
 
tele turnin said:
Has anybody here rotated at Lehigh Valley that doesn't mind sharing their opinion. I am still torn between what match to do, but am leaning towards ACGME and am wondering if anybody has had any experience getting a SLOR out of one of these dual programs like Lehigh. I'm wondering if they are reluctant to do so as others have mentioned they prefer DO's to do the AOA match.
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They definitely write SLORs for rotators, regardless of whether you're MD or DO.
 
Just making another request for reviews/information on any new programs in the works. Thanks.
 
I am a resident in IM, so I know nothing about EM programs espicially DO (since I'm an MD). But my hometown of Marietta, Ohio has a superb new residency for EM (only AOA my understanding). I think they have 4 spots a year.

Marietta Memorial Hospital; highly recommended.
 
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