Osteopathic vs Allopathic Acceptance Rates

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md-2020 said:
URM status is the single most defining factor of any type of admissions. You can literally go from HMS to applying next cycle based on race.
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? Even the 10th percentile range for HMS is well within the range for a good shot at MD programs

Gandy741 said:
Yea, when I made my school list, I picked schools with MCAT medians + or - 2 of mine.
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I usually see LizzyM score +/- 2 as the guideline
 
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rachiie01 said:
First of all, I'm not saying that someone with a score in the high 20's shouldn't get into medical school. I've said over and over on this forum that those scoring 24+ deserve a chance bc data shows that they're capable of succeeding. You're trying to extrapolate my argument into something it's not. My argument was actually that a school with a 10th percentile of 30 (a top school, according to you) shouldn't be expected to accept someone with a 27 MCAT because of hardship. 3 points below the 10th percentile is significant. Can it happen? Sure. Do I think the applicant will be successful? With a 27, yes. Do I think a 27 deserves to be at a top school? Not really, no. Do I think a 22 should be at ANY MD school? Again, not really, no.
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You have 0 experience from which are basing this off of. That's my whole point. "Deserve" and "qualified" are terms best left to the adcoms to decipher.
 
Lamel said:
You have 0 experience from which are basing this off of. That's my whole point. "Deserve" and "qualified" are terms best left to the adcoms to decipher.
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Nah, you dont have to be an adcom to understand that scoring a low 60 percent on the MCAT does not qualify you for a top 20 MD program in the United States.

Honestly I dont think a 30 MCAT score has any place at a top MD school unless extremely extenuating circumstances. But there will ALWAYS be exceptions to medical school admissions.

Edit: Plus as a student, if I went to Harvard, I would feel out of place. I would probably be dead last in my class, and might even be miserable being in a tightly knit class full of geniuses.

I think that you need to be within in some range of the class or school you are going to. I believe it makes learning a lot easier if everyone is relatively on the same level.

For example, if a school has an mcat median i the low 30's... an upper 20 would be able to compete and relate to such a class probably. However throwing a 24 MCAT at a school with a median of say 32...............not exactly optimal.

Just my opinion though. I'm not an adcom.
 
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Gandy741 said:
Nah, you dont have to be an adcom to understand that scoring a low 60 percent on the MCAT does not qualify you for a top 20 MD program in the United States.

Honestly I dont think a 30 MCAT score has any place at a top MD school unless extremely extenuating circumstances. But there will ALWAYS be exceptions to medical school admissions.
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If they're private medical schools, they can do whatever the hell they want. They can let in only people with red hair, they can let you in based off of the number of zs you used in your personal statement, they can let you in because you're over 6 feet tall, or they can let you in because you grew up on a farm. Ultimately, it's in their best interests to let in whoever THEY think will thrive at their program. Seriously, what do you all think they stand to gain by letting in an applicant with a 25 MCAT? Are you all just salty that they didn't let you in instead? I don't get why you're so up in arms about what choices they make.

And if they make the wrong choices? Well then, they won't be top 20 for much longer, so the point is moot!
 
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Gandy741 said:
Nah, you dont have to be an adcom to understand that scoring a low 60 percent on the MCAT does not qualify you for a top 20 MD program in the United States.

Honestly I dont think a 30 MCAT score has any place at a top MD school unless extremely extenuating circumstances. But there will ALWAYS be exceptions to medical school admissions.

Edit: Plus as a student, if I went to Harvard, I would feel out of place. I would probably be dead last in my class, and might even be miserable being in a tightly knit class full of geniuses.

I think that you need to be within in some range of the class or school you are going to. I believe it makes learning a lot easier if everyone is relatively on the same level.

For example, if a school has an mcat median i the low 30's... an upper 20 would be able to compete and relate to such a class probably. However throwing a 24 MCAT at a school with a median of say 32...............not exactly optimal.

Just my opinion though. I'm not an adcom.
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You're conflating the argument. I'm not saying whether or not it is smart to apply to top schools as someone with a 27 (it isn't, for the vast majority of applicants). I am saying rachiie is in no position to claim who "deserves" to be at a certain med school vs. who doesn't.
 
chocoholicsoxfan said:
If they're private medical schools, they can do whatever the hell they want. They can let in only people with red hair, they can let you in based off of the number of zs you used in your personal statement, they can let you in because you're over 6 feet tall, or they can let you in because you grew up on a farm. Ultimately, it's in their best interests to let in whoever THEY think will thrive at their program. Seriously, what do you all think they stand to gain by letting in an applicant with a 25 MCAT? Are you all just salty that they didn't let you in instead? I don't get why you're so up in arms about what choices they make.

And if they make the wrong choices? Well then, they won't be top 20 for much longer, so the point is moot!
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Whoa... tone it down a bit. We were discussing a topic on a forum. No one is "up in arms" lol or at least I'm not.

Of course schools can do whatever they want.

What a hostile attitude. And no we arent "salty" seeing as most of us are applying for the first time lmao.
 
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Lamel said:
You're conflating the argument. I'm not saying whether or not it is smart to apply to top schools as someone with a 27 (it isn't, for the vast majority of applicants). I am saying rachiie is in no position to claim who "deserves" to be at a certain med school vs. who doesn't.
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Well of course not so I agree with you there. The schools have the final say in whoever they want in their school
 
efle said:
? Even the 10th percentile range for HMS is well within the range for a good shot at MD programs
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A decent shot, yes. But any small missstep, and an ORM with say, 3.6/34 is looking at reapp while a URM is matriculating at HMS
 
Gandy741 said:
Whoa... tone it down a bit. We were discussing a topic on a forum. No one is "up in arms" lol or at least I'm not.

Of course schools can do whatever they want.

What a hostile attitude. And no we arent "salty" seeing as most of us are applying for the first time lmao.
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Dang. Didn't think it came across as that harsh. This was addressed at everyone in this thread. People claiming that if you're significantly below the 10th percentile, you don't "deserve" to be there. That seems like a pretty ****ty attitude to me personally. If you're not an adcom, who are you to decide who deserves to be there?

Lol, guess I was referring to preemptive salt.
 
md-2020 said:
A decent shot, yes. But any small missstep, and an ORM with say, 3.6/34 is looking at reapp while a URM is matriculating at HMS
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A 3.6/34 is pretty good though. I have no qualms about the URM getting in since the patients benefit from this URM status thing.
 
Gandy741 said:
A 3.6/34 is pretty good though. I have no qualms about the URM getting in since the patients benefit from this URM status thing.
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I agree that 3.6/34 is good. But there are plenty of ORMs that maybe didn't apply to 20+ schools/early, etc. that don't get in round 1 with those stats. Heck, there's some Asian dude in the Carib forum applying to SGU with a 3.7/34 or something.
 
chocoholicsoxfan said:
Dang. Didn't think it came across as that harsh. This was addressed at everyone in this thread. People claiming that if you're significantly below the 10th percentile, you don't "deserve" to be there. That seems like a pretty ****ty attitude to me personally. If you're not an adcom, who are you to decide who deserves to be there?

Lol, guess I was referring to preemptive salt.
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For us to have preemptive salt, we have to actually think we are going to get into a top tier MD school. I dont know if you've seen my posts on SDN, but i'm a borderline MD applicant who is vying for even 1 low tier MD school acceptance or upper tier DO school acceptance.
 
Gandy741 said:
For us to have preemptive salt, we have to actually think we are going to get into a top tier MD school. I dont if you've seen my posts on SDN, but i'm a borderline MD applicant who is vying for even 1 low tier MD school acceptance or upper tier DO school acceptance.
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Same :) I'm an ORM with a 3.5/3.3/523, so I stand to lose the most for every position I'm arguing. Maybe I'm just masochistic? Lol.
 
md-2020 said:
I agree that 3.6/34 is good. But there are plenty of ORMs that maybe didn't apply to 20+ schools/early, etc. that don't get in round 1 with those stats. Heck, there's some Asian dude in the Carib forum applying to SGU with a 3.7/34 or something.
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Save that Asian Dudes life and tell him to apply DO.
 
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Dat stealth 523 humble brag.
 
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Gandy741 said:
No you arent the same. You made a 523 on the MCAT.

lol
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Yeah, but my sGPA is a 3.28 according to AMCAS. Almost lethal considering I'm Asian. A month ago, people here were telling me I'd be lucky to get into CCOM or PCOM. Luckily, I have an EC that I'm pretty sure is completely unique and could get me into one of those Dr. Pepper One of a Kind commercials.

OK I'm starting to hate the words coming out of my mouth because they sound like oppression olympics, but I will close by saying good luck to you in this cycle and I can almost guarantee a year from now you'll be heading off to med school!
 
Lamel said:
Dat stealth 523 humble brag.
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Lol. My point was that I am arguing in favor of affirmative action when I am an ORM and in favor of considering low MCAT applicants when my MCAT is the crown jewel of my application.
 
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Lamel said:
You're conflating the argument. I'm not saying whether or not it is smart to apply to top schools as someone with a 27 (it isn't, for the vast majority of applicants). I am saying rachiie is in no position to claim who "deserves" to be at a certain med school vs. who doesn't.
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I never said I was in a position to make these decisions, I just said it was my opinion (multiple times, actually). As an applicant that dealt with hardship, I think it's ridiculous to expect significant special treatment in admissions. Bringing this back to my original statement, no single digit MCAT belongs in med school regardless of circumstance. Make excuses for them all you want, but my opinion still stands. Disagree with me all you want, but you haven't given me any reason to change my opinion (you've just conplained about it lol).
 
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rachiie01 said:
I never said I was in a position to make these decisions, I just said it was my opinion (multiple times, actually). As an applicant that dealt with hardship, I think it's ridiculous to expect significant special treatment in admissions. Bringing this back to my original statement, no single digit MCAT belongs in med school regardless of circumstance. Make excuses for them all you want, but my opinion still stands. Disagree with me all you want, but you haven't given me any reason to change my opinion (you've just conplained about it lol).
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Try not to get so defensive. I never said single digit MCATs belong in med school. You set an arbitrary line of "a couple points below the 10%ile" - you never gave any reason for setting this line. Of course you aren't in any position to make these decisions, you really aren't in any position to judge who deserves to go to what school, either. You are of course entitled to your opinion, no matter how baseless it is.
 
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Lamel said:
Try not to get so defensive. I never said single digit MCATs belong in med school. You set an arbitrary line of "a couple points below the 10%ile" - you never gave any reason for setting this line. Of course you aren't in any position to make these decisions, you really aren't in any position to judge who deserves to go to what school, either. You are of course entitled to your opinion, no matter how baseless it is.
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Lol why ask where I would draw the line and then get touchy about my personal opinion of....where I would draw the line? That's nonsensical.
 
Person A: ''what do you think of X''
Person B: ''I think this''
Person A: ''How could you think that?! Who are you to have that opinion?! Hmm?? Who do you think you are to state that opinion??? Your opinion isn't fact, it's just opinion! Don't you realize?! You are no one! You have no right to decide your own opinion!''

^^^literally what your posts sound like to me lol.
 
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rachiie01 said:
Person A: ''what do you think of X''
Person B: ''I think this''
Person A: ''How could you think that?! Who are you to have that opinion?! Hmm?? Who do you think you are to state that opinion??? Your opinion isn't fact, it's just opinion! Don't you realize?! You are no one! You have no right to decide your own opinion!''

^^^literally what your posts sound like to me lol.
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rachiie01 said:
Lol why ask where I would draw the line and then get touchy about my personal opinion of....where I would draw the line? That's nonsensical.
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:smack: Lol no one is attacking your freedom to have an opinion. Why did you draw that line there? Its arbitrary, what are you basing it off of? That's what I am asking you.

It really doesn't matter though, you're taking it way too personally.
 
rachiie01 said:
Person A: ''what do you think of X''
Person B: ''I think this''
Person A: ''How could you think that?! Who are you to have that opinion?! Hmm?? Who do you think you are to state that opinion??? Your opinion isn't fact, it's just opinion! Don't you realize?! You are no one! You have no right to decide your own opinion!''

^^^literally what your posts sound like to me lol.
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99% of SDN in a nutshell. I sometimes question why these posters with zero sympathy or compassion want to be doctors. Guess it's for the $$$ :claps:
 
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Lamel said:
:smack: Lol no one is attacking your freedom to have an opinion. Why did you draw that line there? Its arbitrary, what are you basing it off of? That's what I am asking you.

It really doesn't matter though, you're taking it way too personally.
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Well, if you had simply asked why I draw the line there, I may have responded differently than I did to your posts stating that I ''have no right'' and whatnot.

As I said earlier, I was mostly referencing low-MCAT accepting schools whose 10th percentile is already near the 26 area. More than 3 points below those 10th percentiles and I think it's pretty risky. Personally, I have some pretty extenuating circumstances but I would never apply to medical school with a 22 MCAT or 2.1 gpa. I just don't think that my hardships grant me admission and I expect to demonstrate my capabilities similar to everyone else (though not completely the same, as I said I can see a few points being forgiven to kind of even the playing field, for lack of a better term).
 
WonderGrill said:
I sometimes question why these posters with zero sympathy or compassion want to be doctors
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What's that law of SDN? As the number of posts increases the probably of someone saying people will be bad doctors approaches 1?
 
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efle said:
What's that law of SDN? As the number of posts increases the probably of someone saying people will be bad doctors approaches 1?
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In his/her defense, nothing was said about being a good or bad doctor, just that if you have such a hard time communicating with other people then why pursue a career that requires it?

Lol and now I'm really tapping out of this thread. This was taken way too far from a post that originally said no single digit MCAT belongs in med school (and I stand by that).
 
rachiie01 said:
In his/her defense, nothing was said about being a good or bad doctor, just that if you have such a hard time communicating with other people then why pursue a career that requires it?

Lol and now I'm really tapping out of this thread. This was taken way too far from a post that originally said no single digit MCAT belongs in med school (and I stand by that).
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But what if they got that single digit score because they slept in a refrigerator and had to simultaneously pilot a plane in kuwait while testing? Surely you wouldn't say they need a retake
 
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efle said:
But what if they got that single digit score because they slept in a refrigerator and had to simultaneously pilot a plane in kuwait while testing? Surely you wouldn't say they need a retake
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Just because you fail something during a hardship doesn't mean you would pass it without the hardship.
 
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doc_mcd94 said:
Just because you fail something during a hardship doesn't mean you would pass it without the hardship.
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Agree. But it was a joke reference to gonnif earlier saying it's fine to accept sub-15 scores when they have a good reason for such a low score
 
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Gandy741 said:
Honestly I dont think a 30 MCAT score has any place at a top MD school unless extremely extenuating circumstances. But there will ALWAYS be exceptions to medical school admissions.
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I know 3 people who excelled at top med schools (Penn, Sinai, and Cornell) with MCAT scores <32. And I would assume that they're not exceptions.
 
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efle said:
Agree. But it was a joke reference to gonnif earlier saying it's fine to accept sub-15 scores when they have a good reason for such a low score
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Ok, first of all, nowhere in that post did it say MCAT <15. So you might wanna read over it again.

Second of all, I guess I just don't understand how someone could pass judgement on a situation without knowing all the details, no matter WHAT it is. Gonnif said the computer crashed in the middle of the exam. What if it crashed after the PS section and the applicant received a 15 on the section? What if between that, other test scores, essays, LoRs, and GPA, adcoms were able to conclude that the applicant WOULD be successful in med school? (And they were right- he was!) I guess I just don't see how you think you have the ego to think that not only do you know better than a committee, but you also know better than them when presented with only half the facts they were.

Thirdly, I believe there are BS/MD programs where schools only require that an MCAT score is present, and what it actually is doesn't matter. Perhaps the low digit acceptees are from those.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
I know 3 people who excelled at top med schools (Penn, Sinai, and Cornell) with MCAT scores <32. And I would assume that they're not exceptions.
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Small n anecdotes, the other 1% of SDN posts !

But yeah anybody 30+ is going to probably be just fine in med school. They just have less chances of nailing boards at dermy levels compared to the 40+ kids at the other side of the bell...
 
chocoholicsoxfan said:
Ok, first of all, nowhere in that post did it say MCAT <15. So you might wanna read over it again.

Second of all, I guess I just don't understand how someone could pass judgement on a situation without knowing all the details, no matter WHAT it is. Gonnif said the computer crashed in the middle of the exam. What if it crashed after the PS section and the applicant received a 15 on the section? What if between that, other test scores, essays, LoRs, and GPA, adcoms were able to conclude that the applicant WOULD be successful in med school? (And they were right- he was!) I guess I just don't see how you think you have the ego to think that not only do you know better than a committee, but you also know better than them when presented with only half the facts they were.

Thirdly, I believe there are BS/MD programs where schools only require that an MCAT score is present, and what it actually is doesn't matter. Perhaps the low digit acceptees are from those.
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First of all, the post that started all this was my response to "4 people got into MD schools with MCATs between 5-14 (from 2010-2012). https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf" So yes, the topic was people with sub-15 MCATs

Second of all, then you retake the exam. There isn't an equivalent to the MCAT. It's critical for a good reason

Third of all, can you find me any such program? All the ones I'm familiar with either don't require it or have a threshold score. Doesn't seem like there's logic to forcing someone to go sit there for a day randomly guessing answers
 
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efle said:
Small n anecdotes, the other 1% of SDN posts !

But yeah anybody 30+ is going to probably be just fine in med school. They just have less chances of nailing boards at dermy levels compared to the 40+ kids at the other side of the bell...
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Eh, I still think their chances at selective specialties are great. People tend to perform better when they're surrounded by high achieving peers. Also, a 225 step 1 from Penn with an otherwise strong app is probably enough to land into a competitive residency.
 
efle said:
First of all, the post that started all this was my response to "4 people got into MD schools with MCATs between 5-14 (from 2010-2012). https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf" So yes, the topic was people with sub-15 MCATs

Second of all, then you retake the exam. There isn't an equivalent to the MCAT. It's critical for a good reason

Third of all, can you find me any such program? All the ones I'm familiar with either don't require it or have a threshold score. Doesn't seem like there's logic to forcing someone to go sit there for a day randomly guessing answers
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Yeah, but the post itself did not say sub 15, that's all I'm saying.

In response to your third point, UMKC's 6 year program does not require an MCAT score. Now, if I'm a UMKC student and I'm not liking the program, I might take the MCAT after finishing my prereqs just in case something crazy happens and I get an amazing score, and then I might apply out. Worst case, I get an 8 or 10 without any studying, I decide to stay in the program, and my score doesn't matter, but it's connected to my AAMC account, so it shows up in the table.

That's the only one I know of off the top of my head, but there may be others.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Eh, I still think their chances at selective specialties are great. People tend to perform better when they're surrounded by high achieving peers. Also, a 225 step 1 from Penn with an otherwise strong app is probably enough to land into a competitive residency.
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Not necessarily true. When I went to second look there next year, I was told that 2 students who got a 240 went unmatched in ortho. There's obviously more to an app than board scores but there you have it.
 
chocoholicsoxfan said:
Yeah, but the post itself did not say sub 15, that's all I'm saying.

In response to your third point, UMKC's 6 year program does not require an MCAT score. Now, if I'm a UMKC student and I'm not liking the program, I might take the MCAT after finishing my prereqs just in case something crazy happens and I get an amazing score, and then I might apply out. Worst case, I get an 8 or 10 without any studying, I decide to stay in the program, and my score doesn't matter, but it's connected to my AAMC account, so it shows up in the table.

That's the only one I know of off the top of my head, but there may be others.
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He was clearly referring to the same thing I was, 4-14 range scores, but sure, ok, he didn't actually specify that he hadn't randomly shifted topic to a higher set of scores without mentioning it.

That theory doesn't add up with the data showing a much higher failout rate for MCATs that low. BS/MD students don't tend to fail out. The only reason lower MCATs should show an order of magnitude higher failout would be because they actually were less capable of handling med school academics...
 
Greenberg702 said:
Not necessarily true. When I went to second look there next year, I was told that 2 students who got a 240 went unmatched in ortho. There's obviously more to an app than board scores but there you have it.
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Well I only said that it's probably enough. Although, I still maintain that matching into a selective program with a less than stellar step score (and an otherwise strong app) is easier if you're at Penn.
 
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