Osteopathic vs Allopathic Acceptance Rates

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Because not everybody has the luxury of circumstance to do so, another assumption. Perhaps they simply dont have the money to do so, or they are taking care of 3 kids while going to school as a single mother, or in a war zone. Consider the factors outside of your experience that may affect others.
the pilot guy must have had 1 hell of a personal statement. do you know if he blogs
he sounds quite interesting, like those 2 Army Rangers who completed medical school

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He was clearly referring to the same thing I was, 4-14 range scores, but sure, ok, he didn't actually specify that he hadn't randomly shifted topic to a higher set of scores without mentioning it.

That theory doesn't add up with the data showing a much higher failout rate for MCATs that low. BS/MD students don't tend to fail out. The only reason lower MCATs should show an order of magnitude higher failout would be because they actually were less capable of handling med school academics...
Could've been like a 16-17, idk. But whatever, it doesn't matter, it's the same thing.

That's what I'm saying dude. Let's say I get into UMKC's BS/MD program. At 17, how the hell can anyone be positive what they want to do with their life? They can't. So I'm going through this program or whatever, and then I think, "hey, I don't really like it here that much," thinking that it's Kansas City that's bothering me and not the idea of medical school. So I think to myself "aw, what the hell. I got Bs in most of my prereqs. Let's see how I do on the MCAT with little to no studying and I can apply out." Naturally, this hypothetical student doesn't need to read SDN, so they don't realize that most successful MCAT takers study for 100s of hours (or maybe they do, who knows). I take it, and I do badly, so I think "nbd, I'll just stay in this program (using UMKC as a dummy) to please mama and papa, and cause it'd be cool for people to call me Dr. Badatthemcat." I start medical school, realize it was really the idea of being a doctor I hated the whole time and not just the location or the acceleration or the MCAT, and so I drop out.

Do you see how this is plausible for half a dozen of the tens of thousands of applicants each year? This is just ONE scenario I came up with of the top of my head with no research- I'm sure there are others.
 
Person A: ''what do you think of X''
Person B: ''I think this''
Person A: ''How could you think that?! Who are you to have that opinion?! Hmm?? Who do you think you are to state that opinion??? Your opinion isn't fact, it's just opinion! Don't you realize?! You are no one! You have no right to decide your own opinion!''

^^^literally what your posts sound like to me lol.

You should tone down the victimization. No one said any of that. Your original post was pretty presumptuous when you said you don't think someone deserves to be in X med school with X MCAT, without backing your argument.

Edit: Oops nvm, I didn't see that you tapped out.
 
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You should tone down the victimization. No one said any of that. Your original post was pretty presumptuous when you said you don't think someone deserves to be in X med school with X MCAT, without backing your argument.

Edit: Oops nvm, I didn't see that you tapped out.
He referred to me at least 4 times before I even responded once simply because I said that I personally thought that 2+ points below the 10th percentile is below usual standards, which statistically it is! I agreed that the line was arbitrary and stated again that it was just my opinion. I also backed my opinion by stating that I was referring to schools whose 10th percentile is already very low.

I don't feel attacked, I feel annoyed lol. Getting defensive/annoyed happens when you're repeated tagged in a useless thread!

So for the love of sweet baby Jesus in the sky, let this thread die. Or at least stop quoting people who don't want to be involved anymore lol.
 
Could've been like a 16-17, idk. But whatever, it doesn't matter, it's the same thing.

That's what I'm saying dude. Let's say I get into UMKC's BS/MD program. At 17, how the hell can anyone be positive what they want to do with their life? They can't. So I'm going through this program or whatever, and then I think, "hey, I don't really like it here that much," thinking that it's Kansas City that's bothering me and not the idea of medical school. So I think to myself "aw, what the hell. I got Bs in most of my prereqs. Let's see how I do on the MCAT with little to no studying and I can apply out." Naturally, this hypothetical student doesn't need to read SDN, so they don't realize that most successful MCAT takers study for 100s of hours (or maybe they do, who knows). I take it, and I do badly, so I think "nbd, I'll just stay in this program (using UMKC as a dummy) to please mama and papa, and cause it'd be cool for people to call me Dr. Badatthemcat." I start medical school, realize it was really the idea of being a doctor I hated the whole time and not just the location or the acceleration or the MCAT, and so I drop out.

Do you see how this is plausible for half a dozen of the tens of thousands of applicants each year? This is just ONE scenario I came up with of the top of my head with no research- I'm sure there are others.
The 13-14% failout numbers came from a n = 116 of 17 and lower MCATs. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the selectivity of BS/MD programs, but the students that get in are overwhelmingly academically gifted and driven to pursue medicine (one of the major criteria for BS/MD is exposure to medicine and good reasons to pursue it, much like we face for the MD alone). I really don't buy the scenario you describe. It's far more likely that scenarios like gonnif's are occurring where adcoms are so impressed by someone's life story that they accept people despite very low (albeit excusably so) MCATs without asking to see a retake, and then a big chunk goes on to fail out from inability to handle med school. This is all useless speculation from both of us

You should tone down the victimization. No one said any of that. Your original post was pretty presumptuous when you said you don't think someone deserves to be in X med school with X MCAT, without backing your argument.

Edit: Oops nvm, I didn't see that you tapped out.
If you really want to piss her off say "BYE FELICIA!!"

He referred to me at least 4 times before I even responded once simply because I said that I personally thought that 2+ points below the 10th percentile is below usual standards, which statistically it is! I agreed that the line was arbitrary and stated again that it was just my opinion. I also backed my opinion by stating that I was referring to schools whose 10th percentile is already very low.

I don't feel attacked, I feel annoyed lol. Getting defensive/annoyed happens when you're repeated tagged in a useless thread!

So for the love of sweet baby Jesus in the sky, let this thread die. Or at least stop quoting people who don't want to be involved anymore lol.
 
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The 13-14% failout numbers came from a n = 116 of 17 and lower MCATs. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the selectivity of BS/MD programs, but the students that get in are overwhelmingly academically gifted and driven to pursue medicine (one of the major criteria for BS/MD is exposure to medicine and good reasons to pursue it, much like we face for the MD alone). I really don't buy the scenario you describe. It's far more likely that scenarios like gonnif's are occurring where adcoms are so impressed by someone's life story that they accept people despite very low (albeit excusably so) MCATs without asking to see a retake, and then a big chunk goes on to fail out from inability to handle med school.

I'm very familiar considering I got into a handful. And the people in some programs have demonstrated an interest, yes (Pitt, WashU, BU, etc), but some, like UMKC, UAB, NEUCOM, and GPPA are just stats ******.

Think about it from a utilitarian perspective, also. If I pledge to donate 2 million dollars to your school if my kid gets in, you're gonna take that money and run because you could use it for great things! So your school has one less graduate in that class- big deal? I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of those kiddos are from wealthy families, also, and if you figure a little less than one per school and the BS/MD scenarios I talked about, it evens out to that 116 number.

But Adam Eaton is a homer shy of a cycle, so I'm peacing out!
 
I'm very familiar considering I got into a handful. And the people in some programs have demonstrated an interest, yes (Pitt, WashU, BU, etc), but some, like UMKC, UAB, NEUCOM, and GPPA are just stats ******.

Think about it from a utilitarian perspective, also. If I pledge to donate 2 million dollars to your school if my kid gets in, you're gonna take that money and run because you could use it for great things! So your school has one less graduate in that class- big deal? I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of those kiddos are from wealthy families, also, and if you figure a little less than one per school and the BS/MD scenarios I talked about, it evens out to that 116 number.

But Adam Eaton is a homer shy of a cycle, so I'm peacing out!
No kidding? Obviously I'm most familiar with WashU's but I was under the impression even the less competitive BS/MDs were on par with Ivy League undergrads for selectivity

This was my original argument! That most people like that must get in through connections like daddy having his name on a building!

We have come full circle.
 
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No kidding? Obviously I'm most familiar with WashU's but I was under the impression even the less competitive BS/MDs were on par with Ivy League undergrads for selectivity

Nah, I got into Villanova's BS/MD with Drexel and SLU's BS/MD (didn't take either) but my high school stats were nothing special.
 
Nah, I got into Villanova's BS/MD with Drexel and SLU's BS/MD (didn't take either) but my high school stats were nothing special.
Care to list said stats? You're probably one of those kids that says "I was only a 34 ACT" ;)
 
Care to list said stats? You're probably one of those kids that says "I was only a 34 ACT" ;)

haha I got a 32 on the ACT which I know is good, but at least from my experience is significantly sub par to be on Ivy league levels. And I believe my gpa on a 4.0 scale was like a 3.7. We used a 5.0 scale for AP/honor so I got around a 4.2 but the 3.7 is what I think is looked at. A 32 combined with a 3.7 combined with barely graduating top 10% in class (I wasn't top 10% when I was applying) is a joke for the Ivy's.

I'm not positive but I assume the two BS/MD programs I listed are fairly low tiered.
 
haha I got a 32 on the ACT which I know is good, but at least from my experience is significantly sub par to be on Ivy league levels. And I believe my gpa on a 4.0 scale was like a 3.7. We used a 5.0 scale for AP/honor so I got around a 4.2 but the 3.7 is what I think is looked at. A 32 combined with a 3.7 combined with barely graduating top 10% in class (I wasn't top 10% when I was applying) is a joke for the Ivy's.

I'm not positive but I assume the two BS/MD programs I listed are fairly low tiered.
High school grades are given essentially zero weight, the test score is majority of it. The avg for places like Stanford, Duke, and more than half of the ivies is 32-32.5. It's top 2% and more than enough to be competitive if you've got the strong ECs and narrative to back it up. Case closed!
 
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The 13-14% failout numbers came from a n = 116 of 17 and lower MCATs. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the selectivity of BS/MD programs, but the students that get in are overwhelmingly academically gifted and driven to pursue medicine (one of the major criteria for BS/MD is exposure to medicine and good reasons to pursue it, much like we face for the MD alone). I really don't buy the scenario you describe. It's far more likely that scenarios like gonnif's are occurring where adcoms are so impressed by someone's life story that they accept people despite very low (albeit excusably so) MCATs without asking to see a retake, and then a big chunk goes on to fail out from inability to handle med school. This is all useless speculation from both of us


If you really want to piss her off say "BYE FELICIA!!"

I wouldnt say overwhelmingly academically gifted.

Doing well on the ACT isnt hard. Doing well in high school is a laughable joke.
 
I wouldnt say overwhelmingly academically gifted.

Doing well on the ACT isnt hard. Doing well in high school is a laughable joke.
I mean its percentile based. You can call it easy all you want but the fact is only a couple percent of college bound high schoolers achieve that kind of score.
 
I mean its percentile based. You can call it easy all you want but the fact is only a couple percent of college bound high schoolers achieve that kind of score.

Still, I know a lot of people that went to the UMKC 6 year program. They're pretty average as far as "smart" people go. I understand its percentile based, but look at the demographic of the test taking population of the ACT.

People report taking the test with people who literally fall asleep during the test.

Another thing to look at. A 31 on the ACT is the 97th percentile! A 31 on the MCAT is the 83rd percentile. Pretty big difference.
 
Still, I know a lot of people that went to the UMKC 6 year program. They're pretty average as far as "smart" people go. I understand its percentile based, but look at the demographic of the test taking population of the ACT.

People report taking the test with people who literally fall asleep during the test.

Another thing to look at. A 31 on the ACT is the 97th percentile! A 31 on the MCAT is the 83rd percentile. Pretty big difference.
You probably just hang out with extremely smart people! Top few percent of even the general population is plenty impressive , top few percent of people taking college entrance exams is going to be a good step more so. And then the population that survived collegiate prereq weed out and made it to the MCAT another step up
 
You probably just hang out with extremely smart people! Top few percent of even the general population is plenty impressive , top few percent of people taking college entrance exams is going to be a good step more so. And then the population that survived collegiate prereq weed out and made it to the MCAT another step up

Haha I guess
 
No kidding? Obviously I'm most familiar with WashU's but I was under the impression even the less competitive BS/MDs were on par with Ivy League undergrads for selectivity

This was my original argument! That most people like that must get in through connections like daddy having his name on a building!

We have come full circle.


Idk about most of these since I didn't apply to any, but I can tell you from watching people get in that VCU's 7 year program is nowhere near as selective as any of the Ivies. It's around as selective as in-state UVA undergrad, which just means 1900+ SAT and top 10% of your class.
 
double post

apparently wasn't a double post and I deleted my real post oh well
 
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Stopped reading there.
I mean you don't have to agree with it, but it's true. Many high schools are such a joke that the standardized tests are the way colleges asses academic ability. Having grades really only shows you do your homework / are responsible. Getting in to top schools involves a top couple percent ACT/SAT and excellence in some EC(s)...a 4.00 high school GPA with a 1900 SAT ain't getting you into an Ivy
 
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I dunno dude, according to the VCU webpage the minimum to even apply is a 93rd percentile ACT (2000+ SAT) and for most scholarships and special programs the minimums are a solid couple hundred points below the actual competitive range for non-URM / non-hardship applicants. Guaranteed MD, especially accelerated, is such a desirable offer I have a hard time believing they struggle to nab a few Ivy caliber students to take those spots. Hell looking at the number of national merit finalists that get nabbed just by the full ride offers to state schools like U of Oklahoma...I think it might be a lot more competitive than you'd expect

It might have gotten more competitive than the last time I looked which was admittedly my junior year of high school.

--- I did some looking and it looks like the minimum SAT is 1270/1600 with no score below 530 or 29 ACT. However, it looks like the average acceptee had a 2150 SAT score (~1430/1600) which I guess is pretty good, so maybe it did get more competitive.
 
It might have gotten more competitive than the last time I looked which was admittedly my junior year of high school.

--- I did some looking and it looks like the minimum SAT is 1270/1600 with no score below 530 or 29 ACT. However, it looks like the average acceptee had a 2150 SAT score (~1430/1600) which I guess is pretty good, so maybe it did get more competitive.
Hey you quoted my post before I destroyed it cool

Yeah that's solidly in range for some of the more numbers-relaxed Top 20s like Brown and Hopkins and Cal if the ECs are strong
 
My point was solely looking at a low score and acceptance and drawing an absolute conclusion from it and assuming that would apply to all is not how an adcom works. There are exceptional cases at both ends of the spectrum where high MCAT scores have no acceptance and low scores gain acceptance other than assuming family or money connection can be the only reason.
As I mentioned earlier, I was wrong to say there must have been connections as a blanket statement. That's only true if the student is being accepted to a school that behaves responsibly and would tell people like you described to please retest to demonstrate they don't have a 1/6 chance of failing out
 
Yeah, but the kind of people that apply to both are often either geographically limited, borderline candidates, or insecure. They aren't the same sorts of people, on average, that apply exclusively MD or DO.[/QUOTE]

Or, have had very good experiences with DOs and find the DO philosophy and approach appealing. Some people see more than "rankings".
 
I mean you don't have to agree with it, but it's true. Many high schools are such a joke that the standardized tests are the way colleges asses academic ability. Having grades really only shows you do your homework / are responsible. Getting in to top schools involves a top couple percent ACT/SAT and excellence in some EC(s)...a 4.00 high school GPA with a 1900 SAT ain't getting you into an Ivy

Similarly, a 3.6 high school GPA with a 2340 SAT ain't getting you into an Ivy. I know because I was that student. So your assumption that "high school grades are given essentially zero weight" is laughable at best.

I understand that you want to feel superior about everything possible, but college admissions can be just as hard as medical school admissions. Many college undergrads are also a joke lol. Some are way easier than high school. Imagine if someone here said "oh, your sGPA doesn't matter, just your MCAT score". Get off your high horse lol. If you don't know enough about a subject to talk about it, keep your mouth shut.
 
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Similarly, a 3.6 high school GPA with a 2340 SAT ain't getting you into an Ivy. I know because I was that student. So your assumption that "high school grades are given essentially zero weight" is laughable at best.
I think it depends though. People think of HYP as "Ivies" and you aren't getting in THERE with a 3.6 for sure, but at Brown or Cornell? I could see a 3.6/2340 with the right ECs getting in if the weighted GPA was 4.5 or above.
 
Similarly, a 3.6 high school GPA with a 2340 SAT ain't getting you into an Ivy. I know because I was that student. So your assumption that "high school grades are given essentially zero weight" is laughable at best.
If anything is laughable it's that you think your own single experience provides much proof of anything. The test score isnt gaurunteed to be sufficient; even both the score and GPA are often not sufficient if there is no narrative/ECs to accompany. But Ill counter your anecdote with two of my high school friends, one who got a 2380 with a 3.5ish and another who took the ACT and got a 35 with a similar GPA that are both at top 10s. See how this goes nowhere?

Fact of the matter is that high schools are often extremely easy and effort-based so even a 4.0 is worth very little relative to a standardized and percentile based exam. High school GPA checks the box for "are they a decent student / do they do their homework" and test scores are what are looked at to establish the big brains are there. I'm sure you won't believe me but if you didn't get into Ivy & peers it was not for being an A- high school student
 
If anything is laughable it's that you think your own single experience provides much proof of anything. The test score isnt gaurunteed to be sufficient; even both the score and GPA are often not sufficient if there is no narrative/ECs to accompany. But Ill counter your anecdote with two of my high school friends, one who got a 2380 with a 3.5ish and another who took the ACT and got a 35 with a similar GPA that are both at top 10s. See how this goes nowhere?

Fact of the matter is that high schools are often extremely easy and effort-based so even a 4.0 is worth very little relative to a standardized and percentile based exam. High school GPA checks the box for "are they a decent student / do they do their homework" and test scores are what are looked at to establish the big brains are there. I'm sure you won't believe me but if you didn't get into Ivy & peers it was not for being an A- high school student

Everything that you've said about high schools applies to colleges as well. My brother goes to my state school and I've seen his tests. It's truly amazing how the average isn't 95 at his school. Are you saying that medical schools shouldn't care about undergrad GPA either? Most of them are extremely easy and effort-based, just like high schools right?
 
My high school was totally grade deflated :prof:
 
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I think that coming from an unknown school, GPA is mostly assessed for "does this student work hard and handle assignments responsibly" and MCAT for "academically high capability", yes. This isn't a very contested view either, if you want to try asking others. The difference between high school and college is pronounced, but the gist of it is still there. Go look on Table 24 and you'll see that very strong test scores carry more weight; if you have to be a lopsided applicant it is far better to be lopsided in the direction of a high MCAT.
Everything that you've said about high schools applies to colleges as well. My brother goes to my state school and I've seen his tests. It's truly amazing how the average isn't 95 at his school. Are you saying that medical schools shouldn't care about undergrad GPA either? Most of them are extremely easy and effort-based, just like high schools right?
 
I think that coming from an unknown school, GPA is mostly assessed for "does this student work hard and handle assignments responsibly" and MCAT for "academically high capability", yes. This isn't a very contested view either, if you want to try asking others. The difference between high school and college is pronounced, but the gist of it is still there. Go look on Table 24 and you'll see that very strong test scores carry more weight; if you have to be a lopsided applicant it is far better to be lopsided in the direction of a high MCAT.
How do you equate them though? Like is there any data which states which GPAs and MCAT scores are equivalent?

For a given GPA of x, is an MCAT score of Y hurting or helping it? Then we'd have to compare acceptance rates.

As an example, I'd think a 3.7 is roughly equivalent to a 32.
 
I was more joking.

The bold is just awful :lame:

Yeah that class was just structured so bizarrely though. Each test had an MC and free response, and say there were 25 questions, the scantron had 50 blanks, and you were allowed to split your answers. So if for question 1, if you were torn between A and C, you could put A for question 1 and C for question 2 and get half credit if one of those was right.

The free response was done in groups, but you had to guess half of the information necessary for the problem. Ex. It would just say "What is the highest possible hoop Michael Jordan could dunk on on the moon?" You would get half credit for showing the process 100% correctly, but for full credit, you better pray someone in your group happened to know Michael Jordan's height, weight, vertical, and the gravitational constant on the moon.
 
Just look at the deltas going across rows vs down columns in table 24, that can tell you the added worth of .2 GPA vs 3 MCAT (roughly as bins)
 
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