Osteopathic vs Allopathic Match

[Kuba]

I know this might be better suited for the Osteo forum, but maybe it will get some love here too. Does anyone know the rules regarding applying to both matches together. Also, I heard somewhere that if you match osteo you have to withdraw from the allo match. So if someone wants a particular allo match, do they gamble and not do the osteo match?

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[stretch210]

You may apply to both matches, but yes if you match into an osteo residency (which is first), you are automatically dropped from the allo match.

Just like if you were only trying to match in allo, only rank the residencies that you would want to go to. That goes for number 1 or number 10...so if you were to match in the osteo residency you would still be a happy camper! If you don't like any of those residencies then don't put your name in the match.

 

[Kuba]

Thanks! Kind of like applying to med schools in the first place.

 

[tkim]

They are two separate matches, the DO match about a month earlier than the MD.

If you match through the DO match, you are required to withdraw from the MD match.

Many people opt to skip the DO match entirely, because of perceived better quality of the MD programs, and the sheer greater numbers of available programs.

The stragtegy that many people, including myself, are doing is to apply to both, and if you find 2-3 DO programs that you would absolutely rank 1-3 if they were allo programs, then you continue in that match. If you match, great, if not, you move on to the MD match.

There are a couple of things that you should know. Dually-accredited MD/DO residencies require that as a DO student, you apply only *after* completing the AOA traditional rotating internship. This is particularly true for Michigan, where you can apply to 3 year allo EM programs, but only after completing the rotating internship. So in essence you do an additional year before you can apply to the Michigan programs.

The other is the Five States. You guys already know about that.

 

[Kuba]

Thanks for the responses. So I bet people that want to place derm, ortho, plastics, etc. don't skip teh osteo match

 

[toothless rufus]

There are a couple of things that you should know. Dually-accredited MD/DO residencies require that as a DO student, you apply only *after* completing the AOA traditional rotating internship

Yikes! Thanks, that's good to know!

 

[gagolden]

There is hope for a combined match. I was killed this year someplace in the beuracratic mess known as the AOA. (Too late for me) With any luck, it will be passed in the next few years (just right for you!) Its something that will happen in the future. If it doesn't, it will kill osteopathic residencies as more and more competative applicants completely ignore programs governed by the AOA.

 

[qev]

So I regretfully didn't apply to DO this year because of poor information gathering skills on my part. Despite my support for DOs and the fact that many match into family practice programs so I've heard, I love people thats why I'm doing this but at the same time I loved my experience in the ECU as a volunteer even after all my experience in the OR and other floors. I then come to 2 questions:
1) Are there EM or general surgery osteo residencies?
2) Do you have to be a more competitive canidate to match into a EM program (DO or allo) than if you went to an allopathic school

Thank in advance to whoever can help me

 

[Kuba]

1 is a definite yes. and althought I am not qualified to answer 2, I think for EM it is a no. EM is very DO friendly from my understanding. Good thing since I want to do EM.

 

[Dr JPH]

Dually-accredited MD/DO residencies require that as a DO student, you apply only *after* completing the AOA traditional rotating internship.

Not true.

Program dependant.

 

[tkim]

Not true.

Program dependant.

Could you name a couple that don't require it? Because, as I've applied to programs, *all* of the dually accredited programs require that I apply after completing the rotating internship.

Perhaps it's EM specific - here's one I got from a PD:

Dear applicants. I have reviewed your application in ERAS to our residency.
As you may be aware our program is a dual AOA/ACGME program. This means all osteopathic applicants must have completed AOA approved internship prior to residency. This can be accomplished by applying through the AOA ERAS for the EM track internship at our sister hospital XXXX Hospital. Or you can complete the internship or you choice and apply next year.

 

[MaximusD]

What are the "five states"?

 

[Kuba]

What are the "five states"?

c'mon numbers twin, you're a veteran...

just playin' around, the states are Michigan, W.Virginia, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Oklahoma

 

[Dr JPH]

EM @ Albert Einstein in Philadelphia
http://www.einstein.edu/emergency/education/index.html

4 year program
ACGME accredited
AOA accredited
1st year of the program is internship year for both MD and DO apps

I applied for Gen Surg and found no programs that were dually accredited requiring a separate internship year. It was either built in (first year of residency counts as your internship for all grads, MD or DO) or nonexistent.

 

[MaximusD]

c'mon numbers twin, you're a veteran...

just playin' around, the states are Michigan, W.Virginia, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Oklahoma

I do remember reading that somewhere when I was looking over stuff this past summer, but I just wanted some clarification. Thanks!

 

[supervic8]

The other is the Five States. You guys already know about that.

Sorry if this may be a dumb question, but... what about them?

 

[CatsandCradles]

Sorry if this may be a dumb question, but... what about them?

Maybe JP can correct me if I am wrong, but...

It's because the American Osteopathic Association in those five states are very strong...so they try to force everyone to do an AOA residency or a rotating internship year that is AOA related.

So, if you go ACGME without getting resoultion 42, they'll try to revoke your ability to come back and hold any sort of teaching position in any AMA or AOA school if you do decide to go down an academic route after you graduate.

This means you'll never be a program director or teacher at any LCME or AOA school in Pennsylvannia, Michigan, Ohio, Florida, and West Virginia. The osteopathic schools in these states have a lot of power over their state liscening organizations. Suprisingly, New Jersey isn't one of those states despite having many practicing DOs and its own public osteopathic school.

You can still go to an ACGME residency and say, "Heck with the AOA, I ain't gonna teach at any medical school ever" and you can still practice fine...but you never know cause one day you might have the opportunity to become a program director or try to get a teaching position at an MD or DO medical program...and the AOA is going to say, "Wait a second, you're a traitor to our cause!"

For example, I go to WVSOM. At year four, let's say I decide to do an ACGME residency at WVU and bypass the traditional rotating internship year. I also decide to choose an ACGME residency over an AOA one in West Virginia...

...What will happen to me? Nothing. I can go to WVU, Duke, Case Western, Mayo Clinic, and become whatever I want. But what if I decide I want to go back to WVSOM and want to become a teacher there? Now the AOA board has the power to prevent me from becoming a teacher there. What if I try to become one of the school's staff physicians at the Lewisburg health clinic? Nope. I can't do it. And they would rather hire an MD over a DO who did not do an AOA residency or AOA rotating internship. Trust me, it has happened twice so far.

If I turn against the AOA in those five states, I will be forever exiled to the allopathic world of medicine in those five states.




I know...politics is complicated....

 

[tkim]

EM @ Albert Einstein in Philadelphia
http://www.einstein.edu/emergency/education/index.html

4 year program
ACGME accredited
AOA accredited
1st year of the program is internship year for both MD and DO apps

I applied for Gen Surg and found no programs that were dually accredited requiring a separate internship year. It was either built in (first year of residency counts as your internship for all grads, MD or DO) or nonexistent.

Gen surg residencies have the same length DO or MD, but EM has 3 year and 4 year residencies. So this is more specific to EM, where there are some programs that require an osteopathic internship year prior to specialty training. It might be because of the 5 States, or because it is dually-accredited. There are no 3 year DO EM residencies that do not require the separate internship year.

What's telling is that in some states, the same 3 year allopathic EM program that any allopathic graduate can enter immediately after graduation, an osteopathic graduate has to apply for *after* completing a DO intern year.

Makes me go 'hmmmm'.

 

[toothless rufus]

I thought Ohio was not one of the five.

 

[Kuba]

I thought Ohio was not one of the five.

yea, it's oklahoma, not ohio.

 

[toothless rufus]

yea, it's oklahoma, not ohio.

Thanks!

 

[mshheaddoc]

There are a couple of things that you should know. Dually-accredited MD/DO residencies require that as a DO student, you apply only *after* completing the AOA traditional rotating internship.

Not true.

Program dependant.

Could you name a couple that don't require it? Because, as I've applied to programs, *all* of the dually accredited programs require that I apply after completing the rotating internship.

Perhaps it's EM specific - here's one I got from a PD:

From what I have observed from, the dually accredited programs I've seen in Internal Medicine (specifically W. Va., PA, MI and OK) have the linked internship year, so I believe it probably is program/specialty dependent. But some programs don't automatically have the link and make you apply to both at the same time ... but all that I looked into (probably about 20 of them total) let you apply to residency and internship at the same time (some even with the specialty tracks as mentioned).

 

[Jimmydix]

I'm currrently applying to DO schools and want to go into ophthalmology through a ACGME residency...I heard this is not impossible to do but just challenging....

does anyone have comments on the chances of getting into an allo ophthalmology program or are they DO ophthalmology AOA programs getting better?

 

[Hernandez]

Not true.

Program dependant.

Exactly, I've rotated through 3 AGCME/AOA approved programs and you can apply for linked programs without having to reapply after the intern year. The thing I ran into however, was 1 Dually program didn't use the AOA match. I thought that was odd.

Of the programs I've seen, they are linked and use both matches, so I'm not entirely sure how they work that out fully. But they did have minor requirement differences for the MD/DOs, which mostly boiled down to the OMM requirements.

 

[tkim]

Exactly, I've rotated through 3 AGCME/AOA approved programs and you can apply for linked programs without having to reapply after the intern year. The thing I ran into however, was 1 Dually program didn't use the AOA match. I thought that was odd.

Of the programs I've seen, they are linked and use both matches, so I'm not entirely sure how they work that out fully. But they did have minor requirement differences for the MD/DOs, which mostly boiled down to the OMM requirements.

With EM, I'm not talking about linked versus non-linked, though it's becoming clear that EM is probably the only specialty with this particular problem since training lengths vary from 3 to 4 years.

What I'm talking about is Michigan, a 5 Stater, of which every allopathic residency I applied to rejected me out of hand because I was required to complete the AOA internship year before applying to the regular 1-3 allopathic residency.

What I'm talking about is the dually-accredited New Jersey EM residency that required the AOA internship year before applying. That as DO's, you can only apply through the DO side, not the allo side. There's no way to circumvent that internship year by applying to the allo side. And NJ is not a 5 Stater.

This has been interesting. Perhaps an addition to the FAQ is in order.

 

[Dr JPH]

Maybe JP can correct me if I am wrong, but...

It's because the American Osteopathic Association in those five states are very strong...so they try to force everyone to do an AOA residency or a rotating internship year that is AOA related.

So, if you go ACGME without getting resoultion 42, they'll try to revoke your ability to come back and hold any sort of teaching position in any AMA or AOA school if you do decide to go down an academic route after you graduate.

This means you'll never be a program director or teacher at any LCME or AOA school in Pennsylvannia, Michigan, Ohio, Florida, and West Virginia. The osteopathic schools in these states have a lot of power over their state liscening organizations. Suprisingly, New Jersey isn't one of those states despite having many practicing DOs and its own public osteopathic school.

You can still go to an ACGME residency and say, "Heck with the AOA, I ain't gonna teach at any medical school ever" and you can still practice fine...but you never know cause one day you might have the opportunity to become a program director or try to get a teaching position at an MD or DO medical program...and the AOA is going to say, "Wait a second, you're a traitor to our cause!"

For example, I go to WVSOM. At year four, let's say I decide to do an ACGME residency at WVU and bypass the traditional rotating internship year. I also decide to choose an ACGME residency over an AOA one in West Virginia...

...What will happen to me? Nothing. I can go to WVU, Duke, Case Western, Mayo Clinic, and become whatever I want. But what if I decide I want to go back to WVSOM and want to become a teacher there? Now the AOA board has the power to prevent me from becoming a teacher there. What if I try to become one of the school's staff physicians at the Lewisburg health clinic? Nope. I can't do it. And they would rather hire an MD over a DO who did not do an AOA residency or AOA rotating internship. Trust me, it has happened twice so far.

If I turn against the AOA in those five states, I will be forever exiled to the allopathic world of medicine in those five states.




I know...politics is complicated....

A bit dramatic...

You can petition the AOA to have your non-internship year approved.

Such reasons for not doing an AOA internship and thus wanting to have you ACGME internship approved:
- no AOA internship in the geographic location where you want to practice
- no AOA internship in the geographic location where you are doing your residency
- financial or work committments that prevent you from adding a year onto your training

I only know of one person who has petitioned the AOA and was denied...he tried to claim that while doing his internship in Delaware that there werent any AOA approved internships near him...this was untrue so they called him on it.

You CAN teach at an osteopathic school if you dont complete an AOA internship and residency. True, you may never become Department Chair or Dean but I dont see a DO doing AOA grad programs becoming Deans at MD schools.

Chosing an MD to be a professor over a DO simply because they didnt do an AOA residency...sounds like medical student folklore to me. "Did you hear that ....."