Owning a dog while in vet school?

[vetgirl84]

I do see old threads about this subject, but since most are 3+ years old, I thought I would try to get some more recent opinions from current vet students. I am a c/o 2018 hopeful, currently live with my parents, and have never owned a pet while living "on my own" (in college/beyond). Actually, I had a hamster for a little bit while in college, but found that to be even too stressful for me to handle so I gave her to someone else... I'm a firm believer in that you should not own a pet if you do not have the time, funds, resources, etc. to properly care for it. As an undergrad, I did not feel like I would be able to give a pet the proper attention it would deserve. Now that I am hoping to get into vet school this year, I am re-considering owning a pet. I recently began fostering a dog that I have now fallen in love with and would really like to take with me wherever/if I go to school in the fall. I know that a lot of vet students own pets, but I am curious as to how they manage to justly care for them while balancing 9+ hour days at school. I do feel that I am more mature than I was in undergrad, and I would be more committed in terms of physically being there (I graduated in 2007, and I spent very little time at my own apt. back then), since I plan on not having much of a life outside of school. But I am still worried about not having time to be able to let him out to go to the bathroom for 10+ hours, and just not being able to spend time with him in general. I have already contacted a rescue group that is planning on taking him from me in one week unless I decide I can keep him. It breaks my heart to think about him leaving me, but I want to do what is best for him. Thoughts anyone???

P.S. Also, I've heard that some vet schools offer free/discounted vet services to the pets of students...does anyone know of specific schools that do this?

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[lailanni]

I do see old threads about this subject, but since most are 3+ years old, I thought I would try to get some more recent opinions from current vet students. I am a c/o 2018 hopeful, currently live with my parents, and have never owned a pet while living "on my own" (in college/beyond). Actually, I had a hamster for a little bit while in college, but found that to be even too stressful for me to handle so I gave her to someone else... I'm a firm believer in that you should not own a pet if you do not have the time, funds, resources, etc. to properly care for it. As an undergrad, I did not feel like I would be able to give a pet the proper attention it would deserve. Now that I am hoping to get into vet school this year, I am re-considering owning a pet. I recently began fostering a dog that I have now fallen in love with and would really like to take with me wherever/if I go to school in the fall. I know that a lot of vet students own pets, but I am curious as to how they manage to justly care for them while balancing 9+ hour days at school. I do feel that I am more mature than I was in undergrad, and I would be more committed in terms of physically being there (I graduated in 2007, and I spent very little time at my own apt. back then), since I plan on not having much of a life outside of school. But I am still worried about not having time to be able to let him out to go to the bathroom for 10+ hours, and just not being able to spend time with him in general. I have already contacted a rescue group that is planning on taking him from me in one week unless I decide I can keep him. It breaks my heart to think about him leaving me, but I want to do what is best for him. Thoughts anyone???

P.S. Also, I've heard that some vet schools offer free/discounted vet services to the pets of students...does anyone know of specific schools that do this?

I think most schools offer a discount (mine was 30%) but don't really offer free services. The exception was if they'd like to run additional diagnostic tests for educational purposes - not boarding.

I know people who have made it work, but helps to have a significant other or roommate around to let them out as needed. A lot of students lived very close by so they could run out at lunch and check on their dogs.

Question - are your parents willing to watch the dog when you get busy? That's what my best friend did. She was living alone and had to give the dog to her parents when things got hectic.

 

[tropictuco]

Another question...how big is the dog? Is it possible to train on potty pads? My dog is very small and I just keep her in an exercise pen all day with her potty pad so she can go when she needs to. I'm pretty sure she just sleeps all day...I leave sticks and stuff in there and they're unchewed. But she's fairly low energy for a small dog.

I do have a friend with a very large dog. She made sure to get a trailer in a park where she could have a large fenced in yard, and leaves her outside most days. Of course, with the unseasonable cold, she has moved the dog inside and goes home at lunch to let her out. But...we ARE in Alabama. Depending on where you go to school, this may not work.

Yet another friend decided not to join any clubs so he could manage his time better. He goes home at lunch every day, since he rarely goes to lunch meetings.

I guess what I'm saying is there are options if you really feel it will benefit you in school. I know having my dog here is great for me as a stress reliever, and, more importantly, I think she has a relatively happy life.

But of course, the priority really is the dog's well-being. If you don't feel as though you will be able to manage giving the dog every chance at a happy life, he may be better off in a different home.

Also, keep in mind that at least here, we are pressured ALL THE TIME to adopt various dogs and many of my classmates have caved. So if you feel that you may be one of those people who caves and gets a dog anyway, it might be better to bring down the one you already know and love.

 

[DVMDream]

Am I the only odd person that sees no issue with leaving the dog at home for while you are at school? Most normal people have an 8 hour job during the day, add in driving time, you get that most people are gone for 9 hours of the day.... leaving behind their dog/cat/hamsters/mice/etc. My dog growing up (border collie mix) was frequently left for that long, he did just fine. He was let out right before we left and let out again when we got home. Then he was exercised/played with/etc later that day/evening. I just don't see the big issue... as long as you can provide the adequate exercise for the pet necessary when you are around, then why does it matter. People not in vet school who are gone for the same hours we are or longer manage to have pets.... My aunt has a German Shepherd that she leaves at home while she works for 8 hours, she has crate trained him, leaves him with some chew toys and he does fine. He is a good weight, gets plenty of exercise later that evening and on the weekends when she takes him hiking. I guess I don't see the huge issue with a dog that is left at home for what most people would consider a normal work day...

 

[jerseyshoregirl]

I do see old threads about this subject, but since most are 3+ years old, I thought I would try to get some more recent opinions from current vet students. I am a c/o 2018 hopeful, currently live with my parents, and have never owned a pet while living "on my own" (in college/beyond). Actually, I had a hamster for a little bit while in college, but found that to be even too stressful for me to handle so I gave her to someone else... I'm a firm believer in that you should not own a pet if you do not have the time, funds, resources, etc. to properly care for it. As an undergrad, I did not feel like I would be able to give a pet the proper attention it would deserve. Now that I am hoping to get into vet school this year, I am re-considering owning a pet. I recently began fostering a dog that I have now fallen in love with and would really like to take with me wherever/if I go to school in the fall. I know that a lot of vet students own pets, but I am curious as to how they manage to justly care for them while balancing 9+ hour days at school. I do feel that I am more mature than I was in undergrad, and I would be more committed in terms of physically being there (I graduated in 2007, and I spent very little time at my own apt. back then), since I plan on not having much of a life outside of school. But I am still worried about not having time to be able to let him out to go to the bathroom for 10+ hours, and just not being able to spend time with him in general. I have already contacted a rescue group that is planning on taking him from me in one week unless I decide I can keep him. It breaks my heart to think about him leaving me, but I want to do what is best for him. Thoughts anyone???

P.S. Also, I've heard that some vet schools offer free/discounted vet services to the pets of students...does anyone know of specific schools that do this?

i have a zoo in my household and i will be starting vet school next fall, so i will let you know how it goes! i live with my boyfriend so it does make it easier, however he works full time 8 to 6 +. for me, i don't think vet school will be much different than it is now b/c i work full time 40+ hours a week plus take classes. i do have to hire a dog walker on the days of my 12 hour shifts, and i've heard that some people in vet school do this too, so dog walking may be something you want to budget for. however, i have also heard that classmates are really helpful with walking each other's dogs when needed. you definitely become used to caring for animals while managing a chaotic schedule - now that i have been doing it for 3 years while living on my own, it is part of my daily routine and not stressful at all. i don't think i could have managed having a pet during undergrad either... it's a different lifestyle. my pets bring me so much stress relief/joy, that it is entirely worth the extra money per week to hire a dog walker or running home during lunch or stopping home to walk my dogs before i meet friends for dinner! i always say where there's a will, there's a way! also, colorado state offers a 40% discount, which is the highest i've heard so far. free flea/tick/hwp products are also apparently available from the drug company reps at most of the schools, and potentially free or seriously discounted food? a recent grad from tufts that i work with now also said that everything was extremely discounted there from food to vaccines, however current students please correct me if i'm wrong!

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I have 2 dogs, and they are often left alone for 8-10 hours at a time. They do fine most of time. As long as you get a dog that is house trained (or crate trained) it shouldn't be a problem. I do not recommend getting a puppy during vet school (been there, done that... it was torture) but a grown, adult dog should be fine. At UTK, you cannot day board more than one day a week so it really isn't an option here.

I honestly recommend a cat or two if you are worried about time/responsibility. It makes a lot more sense IMHO. If you aren't a cat person, then maybe another caged pet (guinea pig FTW) will help you transition into pet ownership while having a lot of other responsibilty?

 

[StartingoverVet]

Am I the only odd person that sees no issue with leaving the dog at home for while you are at school? Most normal people have an 8 hour job during the day, add in driving time, you get that most people are gone for 9 hours of the day.... leaving behind their dog/cat/hamsters/mice/etc. My dog growing up (border collie mix) was frequently left for that long, he did just fine. He was let out right before we left and let out again when we got home. Then he was exercised/played with/etc later that day/evening. I just don't see the big issue... as long as you can provide the adequate exercise for the pet necessary when you are around, then why does it matter. People not in vet school who are gone for the same hours we are or longer manage to have pets.... My aunt has a German Shepherd that she leaves at home while she works for 8 hours, she has crate trained him, leaves him with some chew toys and he does fine. He is a good weight, gets plenty of exercise later that evening and on the weekends when she takes him hiking. I guess I don't see the huge issue with a dog that is left at home for what most people would consider a normal work day...

It depends on the dog TBH.
Many dogs are ok with that... dogs that are a little less secure, that would be a torture.
My dogs pretty much can't be left more than 5 hours or they are kind of neurotic when we get back (kind of a breed thing).
And larger dogs can usually "hold it" longer than smaller breed dogs.

That is why most vet students have large dogs perhaps.

Also PUPPIES should NOT be left alone all day. That is really unfair. They need training and socialization and will just get really bored if left that long unless they are particularly mellow.

But for the most part, adult large dogs should be able to be left during the day IMO.

 

[Lupin21]

SOV is a smart cookie. Breed/personality makes it work or not. I am lucky because I live in a house and have a large yard and dog door that goes into the garage and my two spend the day outside and go in the garage in bad weather while I'm at school. Also, if you think you will have overwhelming guilt for not being home to spend time with a dog, I really recommend considering another pet like Jam said pet. You will be stressed enough without adding a guilt trip.

 

[ChittyBang]

While I agree that people who do not have the proper resources should not have a dog (or cat, hamster, etc.), leaving a dog home for ~8 hours is hardly abusive. You did say that your hamster was too much for you, however, so if you can find a good home for your foster while preparing for vet school, that may be best for you both.

I have two dogs, and assuming I start vet school in the fall, one will stay home with my mom and her dog, and one (my special needs girl) will come with me. They stay home while I work/volunteer/study now, so I don't think they'll be offended while I attend classes. As long as they get their walk/hike and get to spend time with me, they're fine. And hopefully I will have a housemate while in school so we can help each other out in this department

 

[Jamr0ckin]

It depends on the dog TBH.
Many dogs are ok with that... dogs that are a little less secure, that would be a torture.
My dogs pretty much can't be left more than 5 hours or they are kind of neurotic when we get back (kind of a breed thing).
And larger dogs can usually "hold it" longer than smaller breed dogs.

That is why most vet students have large dogs perhaps.

Also PUPPIES should NOT be left alone all day. That is really unfair. They need training and socialization and will just get really bored if left that long unless they are particularly mellow.

But for the most part, adult large dogs should be able to be left during the day IMO.

This! This is why getting a puppy in vet school was the worst idea I ever had.

DON'T DO IT. :uh no:

 

[devyn]

I see no issue with having a dog in vet school - I had 2 older dogs my first 2 years and now am done to only one. You have to be willing to put aside the money and time for them outside of classes in order to make it work. While your classmates may be staying late to listen to a lecture or doing a late night study group - you will have to go home and take care of your dog. You also need to budget money aside for food and vet bills.

Owning a dog during vet school will limit you in some ways and that animal will be your first priority outside of school. You won't be able to take the odd trip somewhere so easily or go right from campus to dinner, etc. It has limited my money quite a bit with dog health issues as well as my ability to travel for my required EMS for vet school.

I would probably not recommend you get a dog during vet school from your post. You seem very hesitant with the idea and have had issues owning pets while in school in the past. There is no shame in that, but knowing your limitations is important. You can easily visit with other classmates pets during the school year or find other outlets to interact with animals without taking on that commitment.

 

[orca2011]

I have a dog and two guinea pigs. I started with just the one guinea pig first year and then got him a spayed lady friend. Unfortunately, they ended up fighting, so they live separately but can see each other so they get socialization that way. I will admit that they don't get as much cuddle time as last year because they stay in my bedroom (on the 3rd floor) and I don't study in there. I do have a playpen I made for them so they can have a nice area for floor time (they get along during this for some reason...)

My dog I got during the summer after first year. I was originally thinking of getting a corgi puppy, but ended up with an older corgi mix and it's been great. He was housebroken so I didn't have to deal with that. He also loves to sleep, so he's perfectly fine being left alone when I'm in class. I also have a fenced in driveway where I can let him out in the morning before I go to class. He then gets a walk when I get home and after dinner. My one roommate doesn't always go to class, so a lot of days he doesn't even spend the entire time I'm in class in his crate. We also have two other dogs at home, so he's never actually alone.

I personally wouldn't get one during first year since you're still figuring out your routine and anatomy is a huge drain on your free time. I started looking and putting out applications during the spring semester and missed out a few dogs I really wanted, but I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

As for vet care, Penn recently changed their policy. It used to be 50% off up to $5000 and now it's 50% off on everything, with no cap. We have Community Practice, where you can make an appointment for basic things and exams are like $18 (pretty sure that's before the 50% off) and vaccines are super cheap. I have gotten free flea products from them, but I'm not sure how frequently that happens. I have gotten some diagnostic work done at no charge because the residents/interns wanted to do it for their learning purposes, including my guinea pig's cystocentesis, which was a nice surprise.

We also get free flea/tick/HWP from the various companies. Pretty sure I currently have like 3 years worth of HWP. We also have discounted Hills, Royal Canin and free Purina, which has been helpful for me since I ended up having to do a food trial and needed to use a prescription food. For those with pocket pets/exotics, we also have discounted Oxbow and Lafeber as well.

I also took out insurance for my dog. I went with PetPlan because it had the shorter waiting period before coverage and you get discounts for being in the vet field. I'm paying $24 a month for $22,000 of coverage a year.

 

[DVMDream]

It depends on the dog TBH.
Many dogs are ok with that... dogs that are a little less secure, that would be a torture.
My dogs pretty much can't be left more than 5 hours or they are kind of neurotic when we get back (kind of a breed thing).
And larger dogs can usually "hold it" longer than smaller breed dogs.

That is why most vet students have large dogs perhaps.

Also PUPPIES should NOT be left alone all day. That is really unfair. They need training and socialization and will just get really bored if left that long unless they are particularly mellow.

But for the most part, adult large dogs should be able to be left during the day IMO.

I guess I should have left the disclaimer that I had originally that some dogs with underlying behavioral issues or certain breeds might not be as good with this. The small dogs not holding their bladders, meh, I worked with a vet who owned 3 Chihuahuas that she left alone for her work day often 10 hours and they did fine...

Also, I 100% agree with the puppy, just don't adopt a puppy while in vet school...

Overall, I think most, healthy adult dogs are just fine left alone for 8 hours, but if the OP is not comfortable with this or questioning her ability to be able to provide adequate care then it might be best to find another home for the dog. I just don't think you should allow being away for 8 hours of the day be the determining factor of keeping a dog or not because, generally speaking, a dog will do fine with that.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I also took out insurance for my dog. I went with PetPlan because it had the shorter waiting period before coverage and you get discounts for being in the vet field. I'm paying $24 a month for $22,000 of coverage a year.

Can you tell me how you got a quote that low? I am getting $30 for the $10,000 per year coverage with the professional discuount...

 

[geologist]

I have a dog in grad school (making me gone a lot of the time), and I fully intend to take him with me if (hopefully when?) I go to vet school. The important thing is I know my dog really well. I take him on runs every morning, so he sleeps most of the day. During lunch, I come home because I live close and take him out and play with him a little.. Frisbee tires him out in 15 minutes. Then, I come home as soon as possible and take him for his evening walk. It's just about priorities and your dog. I fully intend to make sure I live close to my vet school and to make him a priority - he's like my child, anyways. I asked an administrator from my grad school's vet school if most people had pets, and she said the majority do.

I second getting a cat (if you like them) for you, or a pair of them, if you want to try out a non-caged animal. Some cats in shelters are paired up and that can be a good way to get a non-caged pet that will be fine with you gone for the whole day! My cat won't give me the time of day during the day if I'm home, but in the late evening she seems to be more cuddly. I don't feel guilty leaving her for a work day at all; I doubt she notices/cares.

 

[orca2011]

Can you tell me how you got a quote that low? I am getting $30 for the $10,000 per year coverage with the professional discuount...

I had a promotional code (10%...I think) as well, but I still feel like my rate is super low for what I'm getting. Maybe cause he's a mixed breed dog and his adoption paperwork put him younger than I think he is...no clue otherwise.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I had a promotional code (10%...I think) as well, but I still feel like my rate is super low for what I'm getting. Maybe cause he's a mixed breed dog and his adoption paperwork put him younger than I think he is...no clue otherwise.

Hmmm, ok. The $30 for $10,000 is for my 2 year old red bone coonhound. Maybe they are assuming an orthopedic issue down the road?

 

[orca2011]

Hmmm, ok. The $30 for $10,000 is for my 2 year old red bone coonhound. Maybe they are assuming an orthopedic issue down the road?

Definitely possible. Geordie, is a corgi mix and corgis are fairly healthy dogs to begin with, so general genetics could have definitely played a role.
Would location play a part? I know PetPlan is based in Philly and I think was actually founded by a Penn Vet alum (which I didn't know until after I bought my plan).

 

[Foxhunter]

Don't do it!

Lol. JK! Three at my house right now works well with the non-vet student roommate. Although, my brain damaged foster is proving to be a handful because a UTI made her revert to not being able to hold urine for more thana few hours. We make it work though!

 

[gugoodoll]

Definitely possible. Geordie, is a corgi mix and corgis are fairly healthy dogs to begin with, so general genetics could have definitely played a role.
Would location play a part? I know PetPlan is based in Philly and I think was actually founded by a Penn Vet alum (which I didn't know until after I bought my plan).

Corgi owners/lovers unite!

 

[Rabbit Riot]

I've had similar thoughts/desires since starting graduate school. Some days I would love to have a dog or a cat. I know that I honestly couldn't afford to keep one. Much of my money comes from my student loans and I'm not taking on more debt to support extra pets (I currently have one rabbit). I also like to travel and having even one cage-bound bunny can complicate things. I live alone and don't have a significant other, so there is no immediate person to run to if I have an emergency and need to be away from my apartment.

For me the biggest downside, next to not having a responsive human-loving furry friend (rabbits are cute, but let's face it, they're not dogs), is the lack of socializing and networking with peers. I know plenty of people who make friendships through their dogs. They visit dog parks with other dog owners. They take turns watching each others' dogs, etc.

Even so, I tend to be of the opinion that people who are attending school full-time should refrain from bringing new pets into the home.

One of the best parts about not having a more free-ranging pet is that everything I own is almost 100% free of animal hair (in contrast my parents have two big furry Goldens and keeping up with the fur in a carpeted home is a never ending chore).

 

[hedgehogcatcher]

...

 

[that redhead]

I came to school with a senior dog - she slept all day, she had very low maintenance and exercise requirements and she didn't require a lot of one-on-one attention, just liked to hang out and do her own thing. She was house-broken, didn't bark, no behavioral issues, all that jazz. So pretty much the ideal vet student pet. I still felt guilty if I decided to go back in to school to hang out with friends, study, any of that.

Some of my classmates have much higher energy/maintenance dogs that they leave crated all day, take out quickly when they get home, and then go out again. In my opinion (and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers), that's not really fair to the dog. You think you will only focus on school, not leave home, etc, but that's a good way to burn out quickly - you need balance in your life that includes spending time with friends, going to social events, etc. And even if you do focus all of your time on studying, what time does that leave you to take the dog out to the dog park or for a run or whatever? Being cooped up all day with little interaction can also lead to behavioral issues (not always, of course) - a classmate's dog has suddenly started showing separation anxiety and destroying a lot of her stuff. Then you'll need even more time (and money!) to address those issues.

As if that all weren't enough, vet school requires more and more of your time as you advance. You're at school longer, you have more commitments outside of class (like surgery patients) and that further limits the time you have to study, let alone take your dog out. I had to put my dog down over the summer due to health issues and while I miss her awfully, I've decided not to get another dog while I'm in school. What about fourth year when I'm hopping back and forth on rotations? Who would watch the dog? How would it cope with even more limited time?

To make a long story short (this is a bit of a personal soap box for me, heh), I would carefully consider the temperment of the dog if you decide to bring it with you. Realize that you can plan to be home every minute not in class, but that it will affect your ability to maintain sanity and that the time commitment of school will only ever increase. It is possible to bring a pet to school with you (probably most of my classmates have at least one and most have more) but think hard about if you will be the best home for that pet.

 

[hopefulinva]

I've got 2 pups at school with me, but I'll admit I'm spoiled and have a husband who lives at home all day. =) Both are high-energy dogs (Logan is a cattle dog/border collie mix, Izzy is a Heinz 57 but she looks like she's got cattle dog, catahoula, and maybe just a dash of husky - she's certainly vocal enough for it, yeesh), both are crate trained, and in the event that hubby is out of town for the week both stay in the crate all day. I make it up to them with Frisbee and "Find It" (their favorite game where treats are spread all over the apartment - in cabinets, under things, etc.)

Anyway, if you manage to find a pet-friendly roommate it might be easier. I would never suggest living with undergraduates, but you might be able to get a grad student or a vet student from a different year who can make it home if you're stuck in double lab.

Regarding cost - food will be covered, that's not an issue. We also get heartworm/flea and tick stuff covered too, but only for dogs 6 months+. Check with the schools you're interested in regarding discounts, though! Virginia, being a commonwealth, cannot offer its students a discount through the school (lots of the local clinics have significant student discounts, though).

Whether or not you can handle having a dog at home is totally up to you and may be trial and error, but I agree with the earlier post - many, many vet students end up adopting dogs anyway, so you may as well give it a try with the dog you love.

 

[vetgirl84]

Thank you everyone for your opinions and stories! The dog I am fostering and considering keeping and bringing to vet school with me is an approximately year old, 13 lb, chihuahua/min pin mix. He was brought to the clinic I work at as a stray that was hit by a car. He had significant head trauma and minor wounds. He stayed at the clinic for a few days and I brought him home with me on the 1st.

He has improved greatly, but still is not 100%...he can now walk/trot/prance and go up and down stairs, but is still a bit wobbly and leans to the left, especially when he just wakes up. The doctors tell me he should continue to improve with time. So far, he has proven to already be potty trained, and is very attached to me- he follows me around and would be very content to just be held or sit in my lap and sleep all day long. I'm not sure if this will change once the head trauma completely resolves... He sleeps in a large kennel at night and has been whining when I put him in to go to bed, but will quiet down after ~15 min. Since he is so attached, I worry about the potential for separation anxiety, but most likely wont know his "true colors" until further down the line when he's more healed.

So far though, he seems to be a fairly mellow dog that I think would be content sleeping all day while I'm gone, but then again he could turn out to have major separation anxiety and be a complete wreck, so I really don't know. He is scheduled to be transported to a rescue group a week from today. They do not have a home for him yet, and he may end up going to another foster home in the meantime. Also, there's no guarantee that he'll be placed in a home with someone that is retired, works from home, or is otherwise home most of the day, so if that's the case then maybe he'd be better off just staying with me? I don't know, but I'll keep you guys updated on my decision.

 

[DVMDream]

To make a long story short (this is a bit of a personal soap box for me, heh), I would carefully consider the temperment of the dog if you decide to bring it with you. Realize that you can plan to be home every minute not in class, but that it will affect your ability to maintain sanity and that the time commitment of school will only ever increase. It is possible to bring a pet to school with you (probably most of my classmates have at least one and most have more) but think hard about if you will be the best home for that pet.

Yes, I wouldn't go into vet school with a dog that you know has severe behavioral issues. I also wouldn't adopt a super high energy breed dog that I know needs more mental stimulation and socialization. Just be smart, make sure the dog is crate trained and prioritize time spent with your pet, just like any other client you would see in the clinic.

I tend to think that vet students over think how they are treating their pets; we are kind of our own worst critics. We see ourselves as "bad" owners if we can't come home and let Fido out at lunch, or "bad" owners if we have a rare day where we can't give Fido more than a 15 minute walk. The reality is that we are people too and that dogs are resilient. None (or very few) of your normal clients that you would consider "good" owners are coming home at lunch to walk their dogs, nor are they going to hold off on going to every social event just to get home to their dog... they balance their schedules and their lives and try to spend the time they can to give their pet the exercise they need. I am not saying it is ok to leave your dog at home all day, come home, let it out for 10 minutes, then leave again. I am saying that leaving a dog at home for 8-10 hours, then walking it for a decent amount of time, allowing it to roam around the house while you study/clean/eat/do life things, then go to bed is fine and yes, it is ok to have the occasional day where you do come home, let out for 10 minutes, then leave, because we are human and life sometimes happens, just don't make it a habit. You don't have to miss out on "everything" in vet school if you have a dog, you just have to realize that you might have to miss out on certain things because of the commitment you made when you adopted that pet. But, you can have a night out while in vet school and owning a dog.

 

[DVMDream]

Thank you everyone for your opinions and stories! The dog I am fostering and considering keeping and bringing to vet school with me is an approximately year old, 13 lb, chihuahua/min pin mix. He was brought to the clinic I work at as a stray that was hit by a car. He had significant head trauma and minor wounds. He stayed at the clinic for a few days and I brought him home with me on the 1st.

He has improved greatly, but still is not 100%...he can now walk/trot/prance and go up and down stairs, but is still a bit wobbly and leans to the left, especially when he just wakes up. The doctors tell me he should continue to improve with time. So far, he has proven to already be potty trained, and is very attached to me- he follows me around and would be very content to just be held or sit in my lap and sleep all day long. I'm not sure if this will change once the head trauma completely resolves... He sleeps in a large kennel at night and has been whining when I put him in to go to bed, but will quiet down after ~15 min. Since he is so attached, I worry about the potential for separation anxiety, but most likely wont know his "true colors" until further down the line when he's more healed.

So far though, he seems to be a fairly mellow dog that I think would be content sleeping all day while I'm gone, but then again he could turn out to have major separation anxiety and be a complete wreck, so I really don't know. He is scheduled to be transported to a rescue group a week from today. They do not have a home for him yet, and he may end up going to another foster home in the meantime. Also, there's no guarantee that he'll be placed in a home with someone that is retired, works from home, or is otherwise home most of the day, so if that's the case then maybe he'd be better off just staying with me? I don't know, but I'll keep you guys updated on my decision.

I would say this dog is probably not a good idea for a busy vet student. He has some medical issues that could end up being significant. And IF he were to develop a separation anxiety it would cost more money and be a bigger time commitment. You do know him best though and you know your own personal limitations, so just think about it and decide what you feel is best for the little guy. If you are hesitant, then it may be best for someone else to take him. A dog with health issues is a much bigger time commitment and needs much more attention. Just something to keep in mind. I wish you the best though, whatever you decide.

 

[that redhead]

Yes, I wouldn't go into vet school with a dog that you know has severe behavioral issues. I also wouldn't adopt a super high energy breed dog that I know needs more mental stimulation and socialization. Just be smart, make sure the dog is crate trained and prioritize time spent with your pet, just like any other client you would see in the clinic.

I tend to think that vet students over think how they are treating their pets; we are kind of our own worst critics. We see ourselves as "bad" owners if we can't come home and let Fido out at lunch, or "bad" owners if we have a rare day where we can't give Fido more than a 15 minute walk. The reality is that we are people too and that dogs are resilient. None (or very few) of your normal clients that you would consider "good" owners are coming home at lunch to walk their dogs, nor are they going to hold off on going to every social event just to get home to their dog... they balance their schedules and their lives and try to spend the time they can to give their pet the exercise they need. I am not saying it is ok to leave your dog at home all day, come home, let it out for 10 minutes, then leave again. I am saying that leaving a dog at home for 8-10 hours, then walking it for a decent amount of time, allowing it to roam around the house while you study/clean/eat/do life things, then go to bed is fine and yes, it is ok to have the occasional day where you do come home, let out for 10 minutes, then leave, because we are human and life sometimes happens, just don't make it a habit. You don't have to miss out on "everything" in vet school if you have a dog, you just have to realize that you might have to miss out on certain things because of the commitment you made when you adopted that pet. But, you can have a night out while in vet school and owning a dog.

I guess to me, the biggest issue was/is the increased time commitment as school goes on. last semester with surgery, we were in school all day, had to come back in, come really early and often stay late etc and it would have been hard on a dog with high exercise/attention needs like you mentioned. I personally would feel bad even for my old sleep all day old lady dog spending that little time with her but everyone is different. Next year, I'll be bouncing around on rotations, requiring that I either drag a dog along with me or leave it with someone. Not necessarily awful, but less than ideal (again, in my opinion). So my advice to everyone is always to hold off on getting a dog if possible, even though plenty of my peers make it work

 

[Rainheart]

Coming into vet school- I had Beamer, my 2 year old golden. He's done the school routine before (when I was a senior in undergrad) and I was working full-time for a year after that. He's been a great dog and perfect for vet school. He does great when I'm away. Maybe once or twice a week we have a 10 hour day that I'm gone... he does fine and manages well. I adopted another golden (or maybe golden mix) back in November before thanksgiving break from a rescue. She's also done really well (I haven't even had her 2 months yet). Definitely a bit more challenging just with her being a rescue dog (chained outside for 2 years). Now that we've started the next semester, everyone is doing fairly well. I definitely try hard to get out and walk them daily, but that occasionally doesn't happen. And, they seem to understand that. Also, my dogs are my number one priority, always. I try to spend the least amount of time possible at school and do all of my studying at home (minus the anatomy lab). I don't really come home during lunch unless it is a longer break (like 3 hours) since we've only usually got an hour and that wouldn't leave me with much time to eat. So, yes, it is manageable to have dogs... I wouldn't have it any other way. My pups are my life here and I think, for me, I don't think I would have been able to move almost halfway across the country without Beamer boy (my heart dog).

 

[DVMDream]

I guess to me, the biggest issue was/is the increased time commitment as school goes on. last semester with surgery, we were in school all day, had to come back in, come really early and often stay late etc and it would have been hard on a dog with high exercise/attention needs like you mentioned. I personally would feel bad even for my old sleep all day old lady dog spending that little time with her but everyone is different. Next year, I'll be bouncing around on rotations, requiring that I either drag a dog along with me or leave it with someone. Not necessarily awful, but less than ideal (again, in my opinion). So my advice to everyone is always to hold off on getting a dog if possible, even though plenty of my peers make it work

It is funny how different each school is. Our most time demanding year will be final year (just like most schools), but outside of final year... our most time demanding year was first year... This year I have much more free time away from the vet school. I am rarely at the school past 4PM this year and most days home by 2 or 3PM.... I have more commitments to studying/extra work outside of class, but I am home more. So this is really going to vary depending upon which school you go to. Here, final year is most time demanding and first year is the second most time demanding. I do agree with you though, that it is less than ideal to have a dog during final year, but busy schedules happen in life to other people too. It is less than ideal to have a dog when a family member gets terminally ill, it is less than ideal to have a dog when you are in a car accident, it is less than ideal to have a dog when you suddenly land in the hospital for something, it is less than ideal to have a dog when you lose a job, etc, etc. I wouldn't suggest going out and getting a dog in final year, but there are ways to handle and manage owning a dog while in vet school, just like there are ways to handle owning a dog when other life "issues" creep up. You just have to figure out how to do it and balance time commitments in whatever way works for you.

 

[kernel]

I'm gonna chime in, too, because I remember wondering about this:

My experience is that it's been really, really tough. We usually have class from 8-4 or 9-5. We get 1 hour for lunch, but with meetings it's sometimes difficult to make it home. My dog turned 2 yesterday. He's a high energy mix of shepherd and retriever, and he requires lots of exercise. I take him for a long jog at least twice a week, and we play lots of fetch at the park on weekdays. Unfortunately, that's just not enough for him. I've had to budget in the cost of sending him to "doggie daycare" once a week. It's expensive, but he loves it and it's worth it. All in all, I would never dream of giving my dog up and I do everything in my power to make him comfortable, but it does add to the stress when I'm sitting in class wondering if he's chewing his bed up from having too much pent up energy.

Also, stay away from puppies. While it may seem obvious to not get one yourself, it's also not a good idea to live with someone who's got one (unless they really know what they're doing). My roommate/cousin, who has never had a dog before, decided halfway through last quarter that it would be a brilliant idea to get a 3 month old puppy. It literally ruined my life... I went insane. The dog was defecating all over the house and making a ton of racket while I tried to study. To make matters worse, she brought fleas to the house right in the middle of midterms. Obviously, all these things are to be expected when you get a puppy, but it is NOT something that a veterinary student can handle. If your roommate decides to get a puppy, no matter how clear you are with them that you want nothing to do with it, it still becomes very much your problem.

 

[cowgirla]

I'm a fourth year student, with two dogs. I live alone in a house with a yard. One is high energy, the other is happy snoozing most of the day.
When vet school started, one was a 3yr old I've had since she was a puppy. the other I adopted a few weeks before vet school started and he was about 18 months.

I've never regretted having either of them. Yeah, I feel bad when I end up stuck at school for super long days. However, most of the time, I know those days are coming. I either leave a doggie door open or arrange to have someone stop and let them out. I chose to pay a little more and live super close to school. Takes me 10 minutes to get home, let them out, and get back to school. Both of my dogs are crate trained, however, I don't use the crate very often. They have the run of the house, their choice of toys, and I rotate bones and kongs in and out to keep them interested.

I'd do it all over again if I had to. Even fourth year, I don't feel that I've neglected them! Both are capable of holding it for 15+ hours if necessary, but those days have been very very rare. Most days are closer to 10 hours, but probably 80%+ of the time, I can get home for a few minutes during the day or at lunch. They have plenty of toys and free choice water and comfy places to sleep (One of which is apparently my futon, and I dont like animals on my furniture, but whatever! I deal!). They don't get fed on a set schedule but they always get fed. They get plenty of time playing fetch out back and playing with each other. Neither has any issues with separation anxiety. The high energy one is destructive to any thing paper like left on the floor (paper towels, napkins, pieces of paper, etc), but that's her only boredom vice. I was still able to spend 6 weeks away on preceptors thanks to good friends, and have never turned down an invite to a social event or skipped a meeting I wanted to attend because they were waiting at home.

If you want it to work, you can make it work!

 

[bunnity]

I accidentally got a dog 4 weeks before vet school began. He had multiple owners before me so he was already crate trained, house trained, and well mannered in the house. Having him actually kept me MORE sane because it forced me to go outside and to take breaks from studying, and he always laid next to me while I studied and kept me company.

Just a random side note, a lot of people have mentioned leaving the dog outside - definitely would not be advisable even in good weather in Philadelphia due to nosy neighbors, drunko undergrads, occasional rabid wildlife, etc.

 

[NJjess]

I have two dogs and live in the city so it has its challenges but I couldn't imagine being in school without them. One of them is 11 and is fine with low energy, low maintenance days but the other one just turned one and is a high energy mutt. I get up early to make sure they get a long walk in the morning and I walk home for lunch most days to walk them again and then walk them as soon as I get home and once more before bed. I have not seen it have a negative effect on my studying because I prefer to study at home and late at night anyway so it just depends on the person. If you like to study in groups at the library or something then it will take extra time away from your pets. Luckily, our school allows pets into the lounges so I can choose to bring them with me and let them play with other dogs while I study. They are definitely a time commitment but it is completely worth it and they keep me sane during stressful times. Taking them on walks is sometimes my study break to make sure I get outside and actually keep myself moving. If I do have a random really long day or come home before going out with friends they seem to handle it just fine. You can do it if it is really what you want!

 

[jerseyshoregirl]

I have two dogs and live in the city so it has its challenges but I couldn't imagine being in school without them. One of them is 11 and is fine with low energy, low maintenance days but the other one just turned one and is a high energy mutt. I get up early to make sure they get a long walk in the morning and I walk home for lunch most days to walk them again and then walk them as soon as I get home and once more before bed. I have not seen it have a negative effect on my studying because I prefer to study at home and late at night anyway so it just depends on the person. If you like to study in groups at the library or something then it will take extra time away from your pets. Luckily, our school allows pets into the lounges so I can choose to bring them with me and let them play with other dogs while I study. They are definitely a time commitment but it is completely worth it and they keep me sane during stressful times. Taking them on walks is sometimes my study break to make sure I get outside and actually keep myself moving. If I do have a random really long day or come home before going out with friends they seem to handle it just fine. You can do it if it is really what you want!

I just got back from my penn interview and I LOVED the happy hr where people bring their dogs! Definitely a point for penn.

 

[orca2011]

I just got back from my penn interview and I LOVED the happy hr where people bring their dogs! Definitely a point for penn.

Hmm, did I meet you? I was kind of antisocial tonight so I'm sorry if I didn't.

 

[LetItSnow]

I just put my 2-yr-old, 7-yr-old, and 10-yr-old kids outside in the yard with firm instructions not to eat the yellow snow and I find they do ok while I'm at school.

 

[jerseyshoregirl]

Hmm, did I meet you? I was kind of antisocial tonight so I'm sorry if I didn't.

I'm not sure because I don't know your name! Did you bring your dog ? I did meet a girl with a corgi mix! I have blonde hair and I was wearing a purple shirt under a black suit.

 

[orca2011]

I'm not sure because I don't know your name! Did you bring your dog ? I did meet a girl with a corgi mix! I have blonde hair and I was wearing a purple shirt under a black suit.

Then we did! I own that corgi mix. Haha. And sorry I wasn't super talkative. I was so tired yesterday for some reason.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Then we did! I own the corgi mix. Haha. And sorry I wasn't super talkative. I was so tired yesterday day for some reason.

Really.. She is at Penn for 1 day and has met you... I spent over 3 years there and still have not?

And I haven't forgotten about your pizza debt. Hope you don't love your kneecaps too much...Imma gonna go all Tonya Harding on you!

 

[orca2011]

Really.. She is at Penn for 1 day and has met you... I spent over 3 years there and still have not?

And I haven't forgotten about your pizza debt. Hope you don't love your kneecaps too much...Imma gonna go all Tonya Harding on you!

You've met me. I picked up some greenies from you earlier this year.

And just let me know when you want your pizza.

 

[WelshCob]

I have a foster dog right now and I had her all through first semester. It was difficult as she needed training. She is kenneled all day and at night due to her excitability about my cats. Its a long story about why I have her but anyways, I have to make sure she gets a lot of exercise early in the morning and afternoons. She gets at least a mile walk in the morning if I am running late I power walk her so same distance but at a much faster rate to burn off her energy. Im also lucky that I also have a horse when I go to the barn she gets to go too and we play fetch. Lucky me she is 4yrs old and some what lazy when were inside so she does really well in the kennel. It is a lot of work. If you are going to get a dog make sure you get it before you go to school so you can get it trained. Even better if you already own the dog and know its personality and if it will be compatible to the lifestyle.

I have to many dependents in the way of animals, If i didn't have my foster dog it would be a lot less. Do not let yourself get overwhelmed. Sometimes I really feel it.

 

[LetItSnow]

Yes, I wouldn't go into vet school with a dog that you know has severe behavioral issues. I also wouldn't adopt a super high energy breed dog that I know needs more mental stimulation and socialization. Just be smart, make sure the dog is crate trained and prioritize time spent with your pet, just like any other client you would see in the clinic.

I sorta assumed all those caveats were built into your first post, but then people had to go nitpick. Geez, folks, c'mon. I'm pretty sure DVMD didn't mean that absolutely any dog on the planet is a good candidate for staying home alone extended periods.

I tend to think that vet students over think how they are treating their pets; we are kind of our own worst critics.

Worse, a lot of vet students apply their minimum standard of care to everyone. Personally, I think those are the people that have a higher chance of burnout down the road when every single day they are confronted by clients who don't meet their 'expectations'. The OP had a line in her post ("I'm a firm believer in that you should not own a pet if you do not have the time, funds, resources, etc. to properly care for it.")..... that high 'n mighty attitude always kinda gets me down.

I understand it in a GENERAL sense - it's probably not a good idea to go adopt a pet if you're living on the street. Truth. But on the other hand; you never know how someone's circumstances changed. Maybe they had resources when they got their animal, and now they don't. Maybe the animal they've got was literally next on the block for euthanasia; it's probably better off with substandard medical care than outright euthanasia.

I help run a once-monthly urban clinic for people who can't afford care. Some of these people come sit outside on concrete in mid-summer heat for HOURS so that their dog can get a couple vaccinations. Don't tell me those people aren't doing their best for their animal. And that animal is a lot better off with that care and those owners than it is getting euthanized.

So much judging.... sigh....

Geez o pete people - they're just dogs. Really. Most of them (#include <caveats>) are just fine at home alllll alone during the day. Leave them a few chew toys, maybe hide some treats around the house, buy some kittens for them to hunt (kidding! geez!), and relax. They're better off adopted by someone they can enjoy a walk with at night and some awesome petting afterwards than they are languishing in a humane society or getting put down.

Grump out.

Oh. Yes, you can have a dog in vet school. At least, it seems to work for all my classmates that have one. I don't count since I have a partner-in-crime at home who takes care of my zoo.

 

[WelshCob]

Geez o pete people - they're just dogs. Really. Most of them (#include <caveats>) are just fine at home alllll alone during the day. Leave them a few chew toys, maybe hide some treats around the house, buy some kittens for them to hunt (kidding! geez!), and relax. They're better off adopted by someone they can enjoy a walk with at night and some awesome petting afterwards than they are languishing in a humane society or getting put down.

This is what I tell myself everyday.

 

[TooLove]

So much judging.... sigh....

Geez o pete people - they're just dogs. Really. Most of them (#include <caveats>) are just fine at home alllll alone during the day. Leave them a few chew toys, maybe hide some treats around the house, buy some kittens for them to hunt (kidding! geez!), and relax. They're better off adopted by someone they can enjoy a walk with at night and some awesome petting afterwards than they are languishing in a humane society or getting put down.

Grump out.

Oh. Yes, you can have a dog in vet school. At least, it seems to work for all my classmates that have one. I don't count since I have a partner-in-crime at home who takes care of my zoo.

QFT.

I think we all have a lot of preconceived notions about how vet school will consume our lives completely...and then we get there and realize that yes, we do have to prioritize and compromise on some things, but it is possible to maintain a life outside of vet school (and you should!).

The majority of my classmates have pets that they brought to school with them. My good friend got an 8 week old puppy her first semester of vet school and they both managed to survive (but seriously, DON'T do that). I manage to have a cockatoo - the most attention-hungry, neurotic, problem behavior birds - and so far (knock on wood) we have managed to live in an apartment with no screaming or destructive behavior and he still has all of his feathers despite being alone all day while I'm at school. LIS and many others on here manage to maintain relationships and families while in school and that fact alone should show that having a dog is perfectly feasible.

To the OP, if you aren't sure you or your foster will be able to handle that change when it comes, it might be better to put her in a situation which would be more stable. Go through a semester or two of school, and then reassess. Good luck!

 

[that redhead]

I sorta assumed all those caveats were built into your first post, but then people had to go nitpick. Geez, folks, c'mon. I'm pretty sure DVMD didn't mean that absolutely any dog on the planet is a good candidate for staying home alone extended periods.

Worse, a lot of vet students apply their minimum standard of care to everyone. Personally, I think those are the people that have a higher chance of burnout down the road when every single day they are confronted by clients who don't meet their 'expectations'. The OP had a line in her post ("I'm a firm believer in that you should not own a pet if you do not have the time, funds, resources, etc. to properly care for it.")..... that high 'n mighty attitude always kinda gets me down.

I understand it in a GENERAL sense - it's probably not a good idea to go adopt a pet if you're living on the street. Truth. But on the other hand; you never know how someone's circumstances changed. Maybe they had resources when they got their animal, and now they don't. Maybe the animal they've got was literally next on the block for euthanasia; it's probably better off with substandard medical care than outright euthanasia.

I help run a once-monthly urban clinic for people who can't afford care. Some of these people come sit outside on concrete in mid-summer heat for HOURS so that their dog can get a couple vaccinations. Don't tell me those people aren't doing their best for their animal. And that animal is a lot better off with that care and those owners than it is getting euthanized.

So much judging.... sigh....

Geez o pete people - they're just dogs. Really. Most of them (#include <caveats>) are just fine at home alllll alone during the day. Leave them a few chew toys, maybe hide some treats around the house, buy some kittens for them to hunt (kidding! geez!), and relax. They're better off adopted by someone they can enjoy a walk with at night and some awesome petting afterwards than they are languishing in a humane society or getting put down.

Grump out.

(If you're refering to me) I didn't mean to nitpick. I'm sure I tend to "over-feel" for the dogs, but I just don't think it's fair to a dog to leave it at home all day, let it out for 10mins and then pop it back in its kennel as I see some of my classmates doing. Is it better than euthanasia? Yeah, I can't argue that. But unless they're next on the block, why not allow someone with perhaps more time to take them? Then there are vet students out there that think because they're a Vet Student they will be the best possible home for an animal when that is not always the case. Not at all to say that everyone (or every vet student) is a terrible owner and one should never own a pet in school, just something I think one should consider if they're going to get a dog and aren't yet familiar with their school's schedule and time requirements. (And of course there are students out there who are awesome pet parents and good on 'em for it. It takes a lot of commitment to have a pet in vet school.)

From reading your posts in the past, I've been able to amend my view on those with severe financial constraints. It breaks my heart when people can't or won't pay for certain aspects of care (not regular care like vaccines, but pain relief or emergency care when the dog is otherwise suffering), but as you said, there's no way for me to know what circumstances these people are in. I do try not to judge, but I admit I don't always achieve that.

 

[LetItSnow]

(If you're refering to me) I didn't mean to nitpick.

Nah, I wasn't really referring to you (or anyone) specifically. There were a few of the "But WAIT! What about THIS type of dog?" posts, not just your response. I just ... I dunno. On the one hand, enumerating/elucidating exceptions is a good thing. On the other, if we're always pointing out every little exception to something people says, it makes it nauseating to post because you feel an urge to list every caveat imaginable to man.

And. I was even more grumpy than usual, sorry. (Guess who had Scarlet Fever this last week?)

I know you know what I mean, because your advice to people almost always is exactly what I'd say, too. I've given up responding to a lot of pre-vets nowadays - I just swing by and 'Like' your posts.

 

[that redhead]

Nah, I wasn't really referring to you (or anyone) specifically. There were a few of the "But WAIT! What about THIS type of dog?" posts, not just your response. I just ... I dunno. On the one hand, enumerating/elucidating exceptions is a good thing. On the other, if we're always pointing out every little exception to something people says, it makes it nauseating to post because you feel an urge to list every caveat imaginable to man.

And. I was even more grumpy than usual, sorry. (Guess who had Scarlet Fever this last week?)

I know you know what I mean, because your advice to people almost always is exactly what I'd say, too. I've given up responding to a lot of pre-vets nowadays - I just swing by and 'Like' your posts.

Eek, hope you're feeling better. And thank you

 

[HowIMetYourPet]

While I'm not in vet school (yet!) I agree with what the people above are saying. While in undergrad I also work 25-30hrs a week...I have 6 dogs and a cat, and I live alone. Now, I'm a mild exception to a lot of the rules, I rent from my parents, and my home is set up specifically for dogs(they're show dogs, so I have a 15x30' room combo that is a tricked out grooming room/indoor play room, with ex-pens (3x3' for 15lbs dogs)set up instead of crates for them while I'm gone, and room for client dogs when I have them). That being said, they still need plenty of attention. While yes, the dogs are fine when I'm gone at work/school (everyone in their own 3x3 ex-pen) They're a super social breed who surround my lap/feet when I'm home.....so this means there are a lot of nights when I don't go out. Some of my friends call me the crazy dog lady (maybe rightfully so ) because if I've had a busy week at work/school/vet clinic, I don't go out with my friends because I don't feel its right to leave the dogs alone even longer. My ex also got very used to hanging out at my house for that same reason. Also...where you study can take some adjustment. If you're one who likes to study at the library, I can see you having to alter that a bit. If you've been at class from 8-5, is it fair to the dog to head back to the library from 6-10? or all day on a weekend? It may seem like a small manner, but if you aren't good with studying at home (like some of my friends), its also something to think about.

My short opinion: I think you could absolutely do it. You just need to be willing to make the sacrifices.

 

[tori_luvs_dogz]

Hello, I wanted to bump this thread to ask whether anyone has experience turning a "country dog" into a "city dog". I was recently accepted to ISU CVM C/O 2019 and my brother (an undergraduate freshmen) and I just bought a home to live in right by the vet school. I want to bring my 7 year old collie to live with us, however he has lived on our farm his entire life. He is well-trained - I showed him in AKC conformation/obedience and 4H throughout high school, but since I have not lived at home since 2012, he has not left our farm to go to dog shows since then. Do you think it would it be unfair to bring him to Ames? Does anyone have experience with helping a dog adjust to living in town rather than the country?