Pain fellowship versus critical care- input needed

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Makis

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Hi guys,

I'm a resident and consider applying for a fellowship soon. Since I enjoyed both rotations CC (surgical ICU) and Pain, it is kind of hard for me to decide at this point. Some may argue that they are totally opposite fields, however, I think both require to have analytical skills, and multimodal approach. You get to act as a consultant, no longer being just the "anesthesia guy"....

I would like to practice in an academic setting when done (even if pain reimbursement is great now in PP). Any input from our attending members is highly appreciated (please PM).

1. Pain
Pros: predictable schedule, heavy interventional, lighter call schedule during fellowhip, low acuity
Cons: difficult patient population addicts, chronic pain does not

2. CC
Pros: surgical ICU ( except cardiac CC) patient population is more balanced stable than MICU, maintain your anesthesia skills, and physiol/ pharmacol knowledge
Cons: high acuity, high burnout even doing something you enjoy, non predictable schedule even after fellowship.

Any input, comments are appreciated. Do you guys know anybody doing both ( I heard rumors that on attending from U Pitts may do that)....Thanks.

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Hi guys,

I'm a resident and consider applying for a fellowship soon. Since I enjoyed both rotations CC (surgical ICU) and Pain, it is kind of hard for me to decide at this point. Some may argue that they are totally opposite fields, however, I think both require to have analytical skills, and multimodal approach. You get to act as a consultant, no longer being just the "anesthesia guy"....

I would like to practice in an academic setting when done (even if pain reimbursement is great now in PP). Any input from our attending members is highly appreciated (please PM).

1. Pain
Pros: ...... low acuity

2. CC
Cons: ...... high acuity


I'm not an "attending member", but i think you've answered your own question.
 
The nice thing about pain is that it gives you the possibility to be independent if you chose that in the future and you can even have your own office.
No other subspecialty in anesthesia offers that and it is a huge advantage in my opinion.
Critical care might be fun (for the first couple of years), but if you decide to leave academia one day you might find yourself competing with other specialties that dominate CC medicine.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
pain - pro - freedom
- cons - legislation, future reimbursement, drug seekers (the highest per capita opioids users in the world!)

critical care - pro - challenging, intelectual rewards
- cons - legislation and reimbursement, long hours, midlevel ICU nurses...
 
Pain can get you out of nights and weekends. Enough said. Even academic critical care you will work nights and weekends.
 
Do you have a good sense of business? Do you have an interest in business? If the answer is no, then running a chronic pain clinic is out!:scared: Anesthesia based CC has the worst hours, lowest hourly pay, is high in risk, has limited employment options, is moving more towards pay for performance, which demands maintaining unrealistic universal parameters for all patients regardless of the clinical situation, You'll be the hospital administrator's employee with little autonomy regarding time off, hours worked etc....And...rectal tubes oozing poo into ass bags in every patient. Sick, sounds like a nightmare!!!
 
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As someone who has decided CCM probably isn't for me, the criticism above seem unduly harsh. While traditional "anethesia" critical care jobs are pretty limited, in my experience moonlighting in critical care in a big midwestern market, you could easily find employment in tertiary community MICU's.

Salary is low for anesthesia, but CCM is as secure as it gets. You don't have to support overhead or build a patient base, but you're mobile and not easily replaced by mid-levels. Even if CCM NP's grow, there's still a shortage of CCM MD's. You'll never be out of a job.

The big drawback is hours, though. The trend is 24 hr in-house attending coverage. Guess what - there are 8760 hours in a year. 2500 of them are between 8am and 5pm on non-holiday weekdats. So although your might be able to work 30 or 40 hours/week on fairly defined shifts, the overwhelming majority of your time at work ... for your entire career ... is going to be when all your friends and family are at home.
 
Anyone else have any thoughts on this topic? Ideally, I would like to split my time between doing OR anesthesia and doing Critical Care. Is it easy to find a job like that? Is that only possible in academia?

Also, what do most CC trained anesthesiologists do? Do most of them work in the SICU?


As someone who has decided CCM probably isn't for me, the criticism above seem unduly harsh. While traditional "anethesia" critical care jobs are pretty limited, in my experience moonlighting in critical care in a big midwestern market, you could easily find employment in tertiary community MICU's.

Salary is low for anesthesia, but CCM is as secure as it gets. You don't have to support overhead or build a patient base, but you're mobile and not easily replaced by mid-levels. Even if CCM NP's grow, there's still a shortage of CCM MD's. You'll never be out of a job.

The big drawback is hours, though. The trend is 24 hr in-house attending coverage. Guess what - there are 8760 hours in a year. 2500 of them are between 8am and 5pm on non-holiday weekdats. So although your might be able to work 30 or 40 hours/week on fairly defined shifts, the overwhelming majority of your time at work ... for your entire career ... is going to be when all your friends and family are at home.
 
Frankly, I don't understand why any anesthesiologist would pursue a career as an intensivist. It doesn't make any sense, because anesthesiologists get the highlights of critical care in the operating room. You still get to manage the ICU train wrecks, but you get to do it for small blocks of time in a very controlled setting that is far removed from all the BS of the ICU (endless rounding, the pain of coordinating "multidisciplinary" care, poor outcomes, etc.)

Am I missing something here?

If you love the high acuity of critical care, then get a position as an academic anesthesiologist at a tertiary referral center and focus on the high acuity cases--i.e., liver transplants, high risk vascular cases, etc. If you ever get burnt out on the high acuity gig, you can always settle into a chill outpatient gig somewhere. If you burnout in the ICU, what is your alternative?

If job security and autonomy are your primary concerns, then become a pain doc and go into private practice.

The vast majority of my co-residents in anesthesia absolutely HATE the ICU rotations. I don't understand how anyone can rotate through the ICU as a resident and say: "You know what, THIS is what I want to do for the rest of my professional life." It seems absolutely crazy to me. Critical care seems like a miserable career path.
 
The vast majority of my co-residents in anesthesia absolutely HATE the ICU rotations. I don't understand how anyone can rotate through the ICU as a resident and say: "You know what, THIS is what I want to do for the rest of my professional life." It seems absolutely crazy to me. Critical care seems like a miserable career path.

I could same thing about pain.
 
Anesthesia based CC has the worst hours, lowest hourly pay, is high in risk,has limited employment options, is moving more towards pay for performance, which demands maintaining unrealistic universal parameters for all patients regardless of the clinical situation, You'll be the hospital administrator's employee with little autonomy regarding time off, hours worked etc....And...rectal tubes oozing poo into ass bags in every patient. Sick, sounds like a nightmare!!!

Bold = simply not true.
Italics = maybe I'm twisted, but this doesn't bother me. Also, I don't have to change them. :D
 
pain - pro - freedom
- cons - legislation, future reimbursement, drug seekers (the highest per capita opioids users in the world!)

critical care - pro - challenging, intelectual rewards
- cons - legislation and reimbursement, long hours, midlevel ICU nurses...

Don't forget, pain is also being encroached upon by midlevels.
 
Frankly, I don't understand why any anesthesiologist would pursue a career as an intensivist. It doesn't make any sense, because anesthesiologists get the highlights of critical care in the operating room. You still get to manage the ICU train wrecks, but you get to do it for small blocks of time in a very controlled setting that is far removed from all the BS of the ICU (endless rounding, the pain of coordinating "multidisciplinary" care, poor outcomes, etc.)

Am I missing something here?

If you love the high acuity of critical care, then get a position as an academic anesthesiologist at a tertiary referral center and focus on the high acuity cases--i.e., liver transplants, high risk vascular cases, etc. If you ever get burnt out on the high acuity gig, you can always settle into a chill outpatient gig somewhere. If you burnout in the ICU, what is your alternative?

If job security and autonomy are your primary concerns, then become a pain doc and go into private practice.

The vast majority of my co-residents in anesthesia absolutely HATE the ICU rotations. I don't understand how anyone can rotate through the ICU as a resident and say: "You know what, THIS is what I want to do for the rest of my professional life." It seems absolutely crazy to me. Critical care seems like a miserable career path.
I do both. Or I did ( better) both of them.
Critical care - no doubt - is better for me.
2win
 
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I do both. Or I did ( better) both of them.
Critical care - no doubt - is better for me.
2win

Wait - did you do both pain and CCM fellowships? You are... The most interesting anesthesiologist in the world!

most-interesting-man-in-the-world.jpg
 
Wait - did you do both pain and CCM fellowships? You are... The most interesting anesthesiologist in the world!

most-interesting-man-in-the-world.jpg

Nope -grand fathering in pain medicine ( I am old my friend ) , ccm fellowship.
I am not interesting at all - I know personally people with pain, ccm and cardio.
I know personally a guy with anesthesia and neurosurgery.
And I think he is the only one.
You'll find a lot of anesthesia with multiple fellowships - usually people try to find their path in life. And they loose some money with extra papers on their office wall. Time away from your family too.
Read UTSW posts again....
 
I appreciate your frankness but my questions are still unanswered. I'm just an MS3 so my I'm sure my future experience will change my opinions, but for now, I'm still interested in doing OR anesthesia and Critical Care, so if someone has an answer, please reply!!!

1) What do most CC trained anesthesiologists do? Do most of them work in the SICU or the OR?

2) Is it possible to find a job where you can do both, splitting time inbetween the two? Since its all just shift-work, I would think there might be some flexibility.
 
I appreciate your frankness but my questions are still unanswered. I'm just an MS3 so my I'm sure my future experience will change my opinions, but for now, I'm still interested in doing OR anesthesia and Critical Care, so if someone has an answer, please reply!!!

1) What do most CC trained anesthesiologists do? Do most of them work in the SICU or the OR?

2) Is it possible to find a job where you can do both, splitting time inbetween the two? Since its all just shift-work, I would think there might be some flexibility.

1. Keep in mind that only about 50 anesthesia residents go into CCM each year, so there is much less data vs Pulm-CCM (~500/year). Also, anesthesia-CCM trained intensivists aren't restricted to surgical ICUs, although most practice in SICUs or mixed ICUs.

2. Yes. Most private anesthesia groups don't staff ICUs, so the easiest way to do both is in academics.
 
Pain can get you out of nights and weekends. Enough said. Even academic critical care you will work nights and weekends.

There are many reasons why I chose to go the pain route, but this is probably at the top. I hate working at night, and I don't recover quickly after being up for 24hrs.

Something you may not realize about pain vs critical care, but is a major difference is the attitude you need to take toward the patient. To be successful as a pain doc, the patients need to really like you. For some, this is easy- if they're sweet, nice people. Unfortunately pain clinics attract plenty of bummed out depressed and often questionably disabled losers (who may or may not have a frank addiction problem). Making these people like you is a challenge you may not want. "Doc, about those oxy 30s that other doctor was prescribin' me.." Even (or especially) if you do all the right things for them medically, it won't be enough, and they'll run around saying bad things about you to their other doctors, and that's bad for business. Managing this situation well is beyond the scope of this post, but suffice to say it's something you'll address every day as a pain doctor. Having a non-narcotic practice helps A LOT, which was the key for me.

I haven't worked as a critical care attending, but extrapolating from my experience as a resident, the patients barely know they exist-- let alone who you are. So your job is entirely about doing the right things medically. Sure, you have to make nice with the family members, but you're not at risk for losing a referral stream with each and every conversation you have with them. Hospital politics and managing your relationship with the ICU staff are annoying as well, but there are certainly parallels to this in the pain world too.

When practiced well, pain can be extremely rewarding on a daily basis. I never cease to be amazed by the number of patients who come back to me with tales of great results from my work. Sometimes I even feel a little guilty to have lucked out so much in this field.
 
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Frankly, I don't understand why any anesthesiologist would pursue a career as an intensivist. It doesn't make any sense, because anesthesiologists get the highlights of critical care in the operating room. You still get to manage the ICU train wrecks, but you get to do it for small blocks of time in a very controlled setting that is far removed from all the BS of the ICU (endless rounding, the pain of coordinating "multidisciplinary" care, poor outcomes, etc.)

Am I missing something here?

If you love the high acuity of critical care, then get a position as an academic anesthesiologist at a tertiary referral center and focus on the high acuity cases--i.e., liver transplants, high risk vascular cases, etc. If you ever get burnt out on the high acuity gig, you can always settle into a chill outpatient gig somewhere. If you burnout in the ICU, what is your alternative?

If job security and autonomy are your primary concerns, then become a pain doc and go into private practice.

The vast majority of my co-residents in anesthesia absolutely HATE the ICU rotations. I don't understand how anyone can rotate through the ICU as a resident and say: "You know what, THIS is what I want to do for the rest of my professional life." It seems absolutely crazy to me. Critical care seems like a miserable career path.

Frankly i dont understand why people do pediatrics, but i am glad that when my daughters get sick there is someone out who enjoys that stuff. I could say the same thing for NAVY Seal training, but i am really glad someone out there has the moxie to complete the training and protect our country.

I have posted many times rebuking flagrant posts like yours regarding CCM. Is it tough, yes. Is PP anesthesia where you do mainly ASA 3/4 for Cardiac, vascular, thoracic, or work for a busy regional service for orthopedics tough, absolutely. I do about 40% CCM and the rest is Hospital based Anesthesia some weeks i am more burned out do anesthesia than CCM. What i dont get doing anesthesia is continuity of patient care, i dont get deal with every day medical problems like PNA, sespis, ARDS, Pancreatitis, AMIs, and the occasional diagnostic mystery (recently had a myxedema coma which presented as respiratory failure and 2 liters of pleural effusion).

Why do residents hate the ICU? Because in general there is a lot more scut work in the ICUs. When i transitioned from a resident to a fellow the world of CCM became less laborious and more interesting. As an attending you get used to the flow of an ICU pt. treating ARDS becomes less work and more interesting as you play with vent modes. A dictation for an ICU admission which may have taken me an hour when i was a fellow now takes me 5 minutes. Remember the breadth of medicine needed to be learned in ICU is way more than what required in anesthesia to conduct a safe anesthetic.

It is not surprising to me that most don t choose to do ICU fellowship after how residents are generally treated on their rotations.
 
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Frankly i dont understand why people do pediatrics, but i am glad that when my daughters get sick there is someone out who enjoys that stuff. I could say the same thing for NAVY Seal training, but i am really glad someone out there has the moxie to complete the training and protect our country.

I have posted many times rebuking flagrant posts like yours regarding CCM. Is it tough, yes. Is PP anesthesia where you do mainly ASA 3/4 for Cardiac, vascular, thoracic, or work for a busy regional service for orthopedics tough, absolutely. I do about 40% CCM and the rest is Hospital based Anesthesia some weeks i am more burned out do anesthesia than CCM. What i dont get doing anesthesia is continuity of patient care, i dont get deal with every day medical problems like PNA, sespis, ARDS, Pancreatitis, AMIs, and the occasional diagnostic mystery (recently had a myxedema coma which presented as respiratory failure and 2 liters of pleural effusion).

Why do residents hate the ICU? Because in general there is a lot more scut work in the ICUs. When i transitioned from a resident to a fellow the world of CCM became less laborious and more interesting. As an attending you get used to the flow of an ICU pt. treating ARDS becomes less work and more interesting as you play with vent modes. A dictation for an ICU admission which may have taken me an hour when i was a fellow now takes me 5 minutes. Remember the breadth of medicine needed to be learned in ICU is way more than what required in anesthesia to conduct a safe anesthetic.

It is not surprising to me that most don t choose to do ICU fellowship after how residents are generally treated on their rotations.

:thumbup::thumbup:

My program has averaged about 2 residents each year going into CCM fellowships out of 12, which is well above the average (~50/1400). I think a big reason is that we have good experiences in the unit. We have a 100% anesthesia-run SICU, and all the senior residents are anesthesia. The intensivists also have leadership positions in the dept, such as chairman, program director and vice chair. We are treated well in the unit, and we get to play a significant role in the care of high acuity pts. I do not think the experience would be as good if we were outside rotators in someone else's dept, and I may not have decided to do a CCM fellowship in that scenario.
 
pain - pro - freedom
- cons - legislation, future reimbursement, drug seekers (the highest per capita opioids users in the world!)

critical care - pro - challenging, intelectual rewards
- cons - legislation and reimbursement, long hours, midlevel ICU nurses...

Mid-level ICU nurses? You’re joking, right?

I’m sure you guys have spent more time in the ICUs than I have, but I’ve seen enough in the ICUs to know that the mid-level nurses there are pretty-much treated as warm bodies to watch over the patients. There, more than anywhere else, they are under the thumbs of the attending physicians.

Personally, I wouldn’t worry too much about ICU nurse practitioners.
 
:thumbup::thumbup:

My program has averaged about 2 residents each year going into CCM fellowships out of 12, which is well above the average (~50/1400). I think a big reason is that we have good experiences in the unit. We have a 100% anesthesia-run SICU, and all the senior residents are anesthesia. The intensivists also have leadership positions in the dept, such as chairman, program director and vice chair. We are treated well in the unit, and we get to play a significant role in the care of high acuity pts. I do not think the experience would be as good if we were outside rotators in someone else's dept, and I may not have decided to do a CCM fellowship in that scenario.


This sounds a lot like my medical school in Texas. Miss that place and never thought i would have. Wish I had stayed as I am miserable here. The ICU experience here for anesthesia residents is horrendous if that is truly a word. It's because we are an outside service and there is no strong anesthesia presence in the ICU so we are treated like scum at the bottom of the pond. The kind of trouble I have gotten into the this ICU would never have happened at my old school. It's all political bull**** and rubbing people's ever so delicate egos the wrong way and they decide to write horrible things about you to your PD who ain't exactly got your back. What a frigging mess. Can't wait till it's all over with.
 
Some people like it a lot. It is possible to like anesthesiology and ICU.

Personally, I hated the ICU but to each his own.


Frankly, I don't understand why any anesthesiologist would pursue a career as an intensivist. It doesn't make any sense, because anesthesiologists get the highlights of critical care in the operating room. You still get to manage the ICU train wrecks, but you get to do it for small blocks of time in a very controlled setting that is far removed from all the BS of the ICU (endless rounding, the pain of coordinating "multidisciplinary" care, poor outcomes, etc.)

Am I missing something here?

If you love the high acuity of critical care, then get a position as an academic anesthesiologist at a tertiary referral center and focus on the high acuity cases--i.e., liver transplants, high risk vascular cases, etc. If you ever get burnt out on the high acuity gig, you can always settle into a chill outpatient gig somewhere. If you burnout in the ICU, what is your alternative?

If job security and autonomy are your primary concerns, then become a pain doc and go into private practice.

The vast majority of my co-residents in anesthesia absolutely HATE the ICU rotations. I don't understand how anyone can rotate through the ICU as a resident and say: "You know what, THIS is what I want to do for the rest of my professional life." It seems absolutely crazy to me. Critical care seems like a miserable career path.
 
Mid-level ICU nurses? You’re joking, right?

I’m sure you guys have spent more time in the ICUs than I have, but I’ve seen enough in the ICUs to know that the mid-level nurses there are pretty-much treated as warm bodies to watch over the patients. There, more than anywhere else, they are under the thumbs of the attending physicians.

Personally, I wouldn’t worry too much about ICU nurse practitioners.

Uhh, you are joking - right?
 
Uhh, you are joking - right?

Arch, care to explain why you think I'm joking?

I just relayed for you my experiences in the ICU as a resident, which have amounted to a couple of months all in all (one in medical school and two in residency). In both my medical school and residency (two different school/hospitals), there were always residents or attendings in the ICU's. At no point were NPs ever there to call the shots on their own without physician supervision. At least, not while I was there.

Are things different where you work/train?
 
Arch, care to explain why you think I'm joking?

I just relayed for you my experiences in the ICU as a resident, which have amounted to a couple of months all in all (one in medical school and two in residency). In both my medical school and residency (two different school/hospitals), there were always residents or attendings in the ICU's. At no point were NPs ever there to call the shots on their own without physician supervision. At least, not while I was there.

Are things different where you work/train?

Dude, academics is a lot different from PP. Lack of MDs in the ICU with an ever aging ever sicker patient populations means expansion of NP and PAs in the ICU. Where i work, they are an integral part of our ICU service. Most place central lines, but stop short of intubations, vent management. I still call the shots on important decisions but in general i leave all the scut up to them.
 
Arch, care to explain why you think I'm joking?

I just relayed for you my experiences in the ICU as a resident, which have amounted to a couple of months all in all (one in medical school and two in residency). In both my medical school and residency (two different school/hospitals), there were always residents or attendings in the ICU's. At no point were NPs ever there to call the shots on their own without physician supervision. At least, not while I was there.

Are things different where you work/train?

Open your eyes, midlevels are encroaching everywhere.
 
If you want a job for many many years to come CCM/intensivist. You can't say that about pain.
 
Sevo - I have to disagree. Patients involved in accidents, falls, trauma, cancer, the list goes on and on...there will always be a need for pain doctors. Money might not stay the same, but the patients are going to be there.

As for CCM - with the baby boomers, ICU's are going to be packed.

CJ
 
Sevo - I have to disagree. Patients involved in accidents, falls, trauma, cancer, the list goes on and on...there will always be a need for pain doctors. Money might not stay the same, but the patients are going to be there.

As for CCM - with the baby boomers, ICU's are going to be packed.

CJ

The supply of CCM docs is low. The supply of pain docs is plentiful.
 
bumping an old thread- any thoughts on the above from practicing anesthesia/ccm docs?
It has not changed... an anesthesiologist with CC fellowship is less likely to find a decent job than an anesthesiologist with a pain fellowship.
The only difference is that both of them are now making less money than when this post started in 2009.
And the competition from other specialties has increased for both.
 
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Except that CCM makes you a better anesthesiologist (and hospitalist). Pain does not.

I would choose pain if I love and want to practice pain (with its asylum of patients), and CCM if I see a future ofr myself in anesthesia (or ICU). Two completely different beasts.
 
Is it possible to do both in academics? One week per month doing critical care, three weeks in OR/pain. Two days of the week in pain clinic and three days in the OR. Seems like this would be a really nice set up and you would never get bored. Alternatively you can replace pain with sleep medicine in the above scenario...
 
Except that CCM makes you a better anesthesiologist (and hospitalist). Pain does not.

I would choose pain if I love and want to practice pain (with its asylum of patients), and CCM if I see a future ofr myself in anesthesia (or ICU). Two completely different beasts.


Critical Care makes you better in the O.R. vs Pain
Pain makes you better in the Clinic and bedside manner

Both are fine choices but there is still more money, job opportunities and a much better lifestyle in Pain vs CCM. CCM does make you a better hospitalist but that's NOT the focus of Pain Medicine is it?

If you want to be at the top of your game and the best Perioperative Physician possible do CCM. Hate Call? Want weekends and Holidays off? Want to avoid AMCs? Do Pain.
 
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There is just one question I wonder about: why are so many pain specialists considering leaving pain? And why are there so many open pain jobs? I am sure it's not the demand, it's the lack of supply.
 
How hard is it to open up your own pain clinic and work independently or with a group of pain physicians?
 
I could be wrong, but it seems that the Pain market is becoming oversaturated. One thing to consider is that as more and more pain physicians are being pumped out, will it really be that easy to find a great job somewhere? Will competitive salaries really stay where they are now? Also, as someone mentioned earlier, legislation is in the works that would allow midlevel providers to perform some interventional procedures. Nobody is safe.
 
Pain fellowship was easy and fun. Private practice pain I found intolerable as far as dealing with patients, insurance, reps, marketing, lawyers, and most of the time kidding yourself into the idea that your blocks are making a significant difference. They are mostly for the physicians financial purposes. I mostly felt like i was draining insurance companies of money for no purpose, innappropriately providing patients with opioids, all to boost my groups revenue. Feel much better now that Im back in anesthesia. The only reasons so many patients agree to blocks is because they dont want to have their opiates cut off or have other secondary gain issues. "My lawyer says I should have the third epidural before surgery".

However I will disagree that it does not make you a better anesthesiologist. When im doing an US guided nerve block/catheter, difficult spinal or epidural/thoracic epidural, or need to use fluoro to place a caudal catheter or difficult pre-op thoracic epidural - im much better than my colleagues without pain training. Also when it comes to perioperative pain control with infusions and pre-op PO cocktails you are the local expert. You are also able to bill for pain consults and have the ability to work part time in the hospitals pain clinic here and there if they want to open one in the future . You are also the pain expert in your group eg: this pain doctor wants to do a cervical TFESI in the office, is that safe? or they want to run a ketamine infusion in the PACU what is the rate? stuff like that.
 
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bumping an old thread- any thoughts on the above from practicing anesthesia/ccm docs?

I'm a practicing interventional pain physician with a background in anesthesiology (and a surgical subspecialty). I think both fields have a bright future (not necessarily from the standpoint of reimbursement, but then again ALL fields in medicine are in the crosshairs of the lovely "cost containment" movement by third party payors), but in many ways they are very different in practice.

The differences:
**Lifestyle--This is a HUGE difference between the fields. Interventional pain, for the most part, is an outpatient based practice with very few (if any) emergencies. Hours are highly predictable (typically 8-5 PM, M-F). Home call is the norm and it's pretty rare to be called at night about anything, which means that you get to sleep in your own bed without interruption every night. Most interventional pain physicians don't work on weekends or holidays. Critical care is a different animal entirely because of the higher acuity of the patients.

**Coordination of care--Interventional pain doesn't require much coordination of care, whereas intensivists often have to coordinate and oversee the care of many different consultants.

**Pressure to multitask--Critical care typically requires a heavy dose of multitasking, as you have to simultaneously care for all of the patients on a unit. Interventional pain practices, in contrast, typically have a linear work progression (i.e., you essentially march through the day, one patient at a time). I personally hate being torn in a variety of directions at once, which is why pain medicine is great for my personality. I get to focus on one thing at a time.

**The acuity of patients--This is an obvious difference. Intensivists take care of the sickest patients in the hospital. Interventional pain medicine patients, on average, aren't very sick, at least not acutely. They have their fair share of comorbid chronic illnesses (no question about that), but you rarely encounter any urgent, life threatening conditions on daily basis.

**Reliance on objective data for medical decisionmaking--Critical care involves an enormous, steady stream of objective data (PA pressures, ABG data, etc.), the analysis of which plays a key role in medical decisionmaking (I would argue it's more important than physical examination or history taking). Decisionmaking in pain medicine, in stark contrast, is heavily dependent on the history and physical examination, and less so on objective data (although cross sectional imaging and EMG play an important role in my medical decisionmaking). This is an important distinction between the two fields, because some people feel more comfortable working with the deluge of objective data in critical care as opposed to the "gray area" of pain medicine. I, for one, love the art of taking a great history and performing a focused physical examination to pin down the diagnosis. I can't stand the "drinking from the fire hydrant" phenomenon in critical care, in which you literally get buried in objective data on an hourly basis.

**Psychological issues in patient encounters--Another big difference between the two fields. Comorbid mood disorders are extremely common in pain medicine and they have to be addressed in patient encounters. As an intensivist, of course, you won't have to deal with comorbid mood disorders because life threatening conditions take precedence.

**Third party payor hassles--I don't know about critical care, but insurance companies are a royal pain in the ass in the field of interventional pain (and all other procedural fields of medicine that deal with insurance). I can't stand them, but again it's not unique to interventional pain. I've yet to meet a single physician who doesn't hate insurance companies. Maybe critical care is more insulated from these issues? (I don't know on this one).

Despite all of the differences, there are some key similarities between the subspecialties:

**Both subspecialties involve a significant degree of ownership in patient care, which is immensely valuable nowadays. This is the fundamental problem with OR anesthesiology--anesthesiologists don't have any ownership of patients in the operating rooms. Surgeons are the physicians who bring patients to the operating rooms and the patient's loyalty, by virtue of the fact that they've had a chance to meet the surgeons in clinic beforehand, is heavily weighted towards the surgeon. Surgeons are viewed as source of profit, whereas anesthesiologists are viewed as an expense by hospitals. Interventional pain is interesting in this respect, because if you do procedures in a hospital (implants or trials), you're treated like a surgeon by the hospital staff, because you're a source of profit for the hospital. VERY different experience from what I went through as an anesthesiology resident. Also, when patients ask to speak with "the doctor" they're referring to you. Having your own patients definitely has its benefits.

**Both fields involve a lot of "traditional" (for lack of a better word) doctoring skills--i.e., performing histories and physicals to generate differential diagnoses, rationally ordering tests to confirm your suspicions, treating conditions, and dealing with the aftermath of your treatments (hopefully positive). Critical care, of course, relies more heavily on objective data streams than pain (less on history taking), but the overall emphasis on critical thinking, differential diagnosis, etc., is very similar between the two fields.

**Both fields will provide you with a more visible presence in health care settings. OR anesthesiology is often an invisible specialty, operating behind the scenes without any gratitude or recognition, whereas ICU and interventional pain are not like this at all. Patients and their families are often extremely grateful for the care they receive.

**Another similarity is the procedural orientation of both fields. There are lots of cool procedures in the ICU setting (lines, ECHO, drains, etc.) and, of course, there are TONS of procedures in interventional pain. So, if you enjoy working with your hands, you'll like both fields.

**Midlevel encroachment is less of problem for both of these subspecialties, because both fields require the unique skill sets and very broad knowledge base that physicians possess (you really need to know a lot of medicine for both to do a good job). The key to being an effective interventional pain physician is patient selection, and this is where all of the training that physicians acquire in medical school, internship, residency, and fellowship is emphasized. Nurses, regardless of the amount of "advanced training" they pursue, simply aren't in the same ballpark as physicians when it comes to diagnosis and management of disease, especially when these things fall outside of established protocols. Physicians are the gold standard in both of these areas. Always have been and always will be.

**Job markets are WIDE OPEN for both subspecialties. There are tons of jobs out there for pain and I know that critical care is a hot commodity because of all the leap frog stuff (i.e., the mortality benefit associated with having intensivists) and hospitals scrambling to close their units.
 
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My perspective.

I talked my two siblings into anesthesia. I tried to talk them into pain. They both chose critical care.

They like CC a lot - but because of current non-academic practice here in the US, neither of them are working in an ICU. I still think they are happy they did the fellowship.

As far as the ladder of respect or who commands a quiet room when they answer a question? No doubt it is the CC guys.

However, most people that do pain, didn't run from anesthesia - they still liked anesthesia and probably started out thinking they would like to continue to do it. But most of us, when doing both, gravitate to only doing pain. I find that telling.
 
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I'm a practicing interventional pain physician with a background in anesthesiology (and a surgical subspecialty). I think both fields have a bright future (not necessarily from the standpoint of reimbursement, but then again ALL fields in medicine are in the crosshairs of the lovely "cost containment" movement by third party payors), but in many ways they are very different in practice.

The differences:
**Lifestyle--This is a HUGE difference between the fields. Interventional pain, for the most part, is an outpatient based practice with very few (if any) emergencies. Hours are highly predictable (typically 8-5 PM, M-F). Home call is the norm and it's pretty rare to be called at night about anything, which means that you get to sleep in your own bed without interruption every night. Most interventional pain physicians don't work on weekends or holidays. Critical care is a different animal entirely because of the higher acuity of the patients.

**Coordination of care--Interventional pain doesn't require much coordination of care, whereas intensivists often have to coordinate and oversee the care of many different consultants.

**Pressure to multitask--Critical care typically requires a heavy dose of multitasking, as you have to simultaneously care for all of the patients on a unit. Interventional pain practices, in contrast, typically have a linear work progression (i.e., you essentially march through the day, one patient at a time). I personally hate being torn in a variety of directions at once, which is why pain medicine is great for my personality. I get to focus on one thing at a time.

**The acuity of patients--This is an obvious difference. Intensivists take care of the sickest patients in the hospital. Interventional pain medicine patients, on average, aren't very sick, at least not acutely. They have their fair share of comorbid chronic illnesses (no question about that), but you rarely encounter any urgent, life threatening conditions on daily basis.

**Reliance on objective data for medical decisionmaking--Critical care involves an enormous, steady stream of objective data (PA pressures, ABG data, etc.), the analysis of which plays a key role in medical decisionmaking (I would argue it's more important than physical examination or history taking). Decisionmaking in pain medicine, in stark contrast, is heavily dependent on the history and physical examination, and less so on objective data (although cross sectional imaging and EMG play an important role in my medical decisionmaking). This is an important distinction between the two fields, because some people feel more comfortable working with the deluge of objective data in critical care as opposed to the "gray area" of pain medicine. I, for one, love the art of taking a great history and performing a focused physical examination to pin down the diagnosis. I can't stand the "drinking from the fire hydrant" phenomenon in critical care, in which you literally get buried in objective data on an hourly basis.

**Psychological issues in patient encounters--Another big difference between the two fields. Comorbid mood disorders are extremely common in pain medicine and they have to be addressed in patient encounters. As an intensivist, of course, you won't have to deal with comorbid mood disorders because life threatening conditions take precedence.

**Third party payor hassles--I don't know about critical care, but insurance companies are a royal pain in the ass in the field of interventional pain (and all other procedural fields of medicine that deal with insurance). I can't stand them, but again it's not unique to interventional pain. I've yet to meet a single physician who doesn't hate insurance companies. Maybe critical care is more insulated from these issues? (I don't know on this one).

Despite all of the differences, there are some key similarities between the subspecialties:

**Both subspecialties involve a significant degree of ownership in patient care, which is immensely valuable nowadays. This is the fundamental problem with OR anesthesiology--anesthesiologists don't have any ownership of patients in the operating rooms. Surgeons are the physicians who bring patients to the operating rooms and the patient's loyalty, by virtue of the fact that they've had a chance to meet the surgeons in clinic beforehand, is heavily weighted towards the surgeon. Surgeons are viewed as source of profit, whereas anesthesiologists are viewed as an expense by hospitals. Interventional pain is interesting in this respect, because if you do procedures in a hospital (implants or trials), you're treated like a surgeon by the hospital staff, because you're a source of profit for the hospital. VERY different experience from what I went through as an anesthesiology resident. Also, when patients ask to speak with "the doctor" they're referring to you. Having your own patients definitely has its benefits.

**Both fields involve a lot of "traditional" (for lack of a better word) doctoring skills--i.e., performing histories and physicals to generate differential diagnoses, rationally ordering tests to confirm your suspicions, treating conditions, and dealing with the aftermath of your treatments (hopefully positive). Critical care, of course, relies more heavily on objective data streams than pain (less on history taking), but the overall emphasis on critical thinking, differential diagnosis, etc., is very similar between the two fields.

**Both fields will provide you with a more visible presence in health care settings. OR anesthesiology is often an invisible specialty, operating behind the scenes without any gratitude or recognition, whereas ICU and interventional pain are not like this at all. Patients and their families are often extremely grateful for the care they receive.

**Another similarity is the procedural orientation of both fields. There are lots of cool procedures in the ICU setting (lines, ECHO, drains, etc.) and, of course, there are TONS of procedures in interventional pain. So, if you enjoy working with your hands, you'll like both fields.

**Midlevel encroachment is less of problem for both of these subspecialties, because both fields require the unique skill sets and very broad knowledge base that physicians possess (you really need to know a lot of medicine for both to do a good job). The key to being an effective interventional pain physician is patient selection, and this is where all of the training that physicians acquire in medical school, internship, residency, and fellowship is emphasized. Nurses, regardless of the amount of "advanced training" they pursue, simply aren't in the same ballpark as physicians when it comes to diagnosis and management of disease, especially when these things fall outside of established protocols. Physicians are the gold standard in both of these areas. Always have been and always will be.

**Job markets are WIDE OPEN for both subspecialties. There are tons of jobs out there for pain and I know that critical care is a hot commodity because of all the leap frog stuff (i.e., the mortality benefit associated with having intensivists) and hospitals scrambling to close their units.

This is a great post! Thank you so much for taking the time to post this. You mentioned at the beginning that your background is in a surgical subspecialty. May I ask which one and why you chose anesthesiology as opposed to the surgical subspecialty? I myself am struggling with the decision of anesthesia vs a surgical subspecialty. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks!
 
Thanks so much for all the responses, it's really helpful. While I enjoy the complex and "data-based" nature of the ICU and how it complements OR anesthesia, I'm leaning more towards pain at this point because I think the workflow is a better fit for my personality. It's good to hear that the job markets still seem to be strong for both, I hope it stays that way over the next 4 years.
 
Pain fellowship was easy and fun. Private practice pain I found intolerable as far as dealing with patients, insurance, reps, marketing, lawyers, and most of the time kidding yourself into the idea that your blocks are making a significant difference. They are mostly for the physicians financial purposes. I mostly felt like i was draining insurance companies of money for no purpose, innappropriately providing patients with opioids, all to boost my groups revenue. Feel much better now that Im back in anesthesia.
My hat off to you, sir. I always think this when providing anesthesia for most pain procedures (the ones that don't help much), but I rarely hear a glorified pain chiropractor admit it. Not badmouthing the field, just most of its practitioners. :)
However I will disagree that it does not make you a better anesthesiologist. When im doing an US guided nerve block/catheter, difficult spinal or epidural/thoracic epidural, or need to use fluoro to place a caudal catheter or difficult pre-op thoracic epidural - im much better than my colleagues without pain training.
No offense, but let's agree to differ on this one. The average pain fellow won't get much training in US-guided preop peripheral nerve blocks (definitely not the ones used periop), and I doubt s/he will place many epidurals with US and without fluoro. S/he might know the spinal anatomy better than a non pain-trained anesthesiologist, but allow me to doubt the rest of the stuff (except for the caudal and the thoracic epidural, and how rarely does one have fluoro for them?), especially when compared with guys who do tons of blocks, spinals or epidurals in PP anesthesia.

Also when it comes to perioperative pain control with infusions and pre-op PO cocktails you are the local expert.
Again, it depends on your anesthesia residency training and post-residency experience. Yeah, you might be better at using stuff like Gabapentin, but I doubt there will be much difference in post-op pain control between you and a competent anesthesiologist.
You are also able to bill for pain consults and have the ability to work part time in the hospitals pain clinic here and there if they want to open one in the future . You are also the pain expert in your group eg: this pain doctor wants to do a cervical TFESI in the office, is that safe? or they want to run a ketamine infusion in the PACU what is the rate? stuff like that.
The former is the reason one does a pain fellowship. The latter only shows how poorly-trained the people who ask you stuff like this are.

I am not trying to belittle your fellowship training, far from me. It's great for exactly what it's supposed to be: management of chronic pain. All I am saying is that one doesn't need a pain fellowship to be able to properly control acute periop pain, and one doesn't learn that much that's usable in the OR. I am still waiting to be impressed by a pain-boarded OR anesthesiologist. Usually, they chose pain because they suck at OR anesthesia.
 
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I myself am struggling with the decision of anesthesia vs a surgical subspecialty.
Dude, then you should not do anesthesia. Given the future of this specialty, don't do it unless you're in love with it.
 
My hat off to you, sir. I always think this when providing anesthesia for most pain procedures (the ones that don't help much), but I rarely hear a glorified pain chiropractor admit it. Not badmouthing the field, just most of its practitioners. :)

No offense, but let's agree to differ on this one. The average pain fellow won't get much training in US-guided preop peripheral nerve blocks (definitely not the ones used periop), and I doubt s/he will place many epidurals with US and without fluoro. S/he might know the spinal anatomy better than a non pain-trained anesthesiologist, but allow me to doubt the rest of the stuff, especially when compared with guys who do tons of blocks, spinals or epidurals in PP anesthesia.


Again, it depends on your anesthesia residency training and post-residency experience. Yeah, you might be better at using stuff like Gabapentin, but I doubt there will be much difference in post-op pain control between you and a competent anesthesiologist.

The former is the reason one does a pain fellowship. The latter only shows how poorly-trained the people who ask you stuff like that are.

I am not trying to belittle your fellowship training, far from me. It's great for exactly what it's supposed to be: management of chronic pain. All I am saying is that one doesn't need a pain fellowship to be able to properly control acute periop pain.

You are arguing about the inadequacy of training that you have not had. You may imagine what a pain fellowship is like, but thats just like me saying yeah i do a lot of hearts im just as good as the fellowship trained people. Let me ask you: how often have you done a remifentanyl PCA for labor analgesia, whats the data on that? can you do a caudal (+/- catheter) for laboring patients with hardware from prior spinal fusion? how about an epidural with hardware in place? above the scar? below the scar? can you do intrathecal with hardware in place? what about a spinal cord stimulator placed for leg pain? can you do an epidural then? how about one placed for arm pain? is that any different?what if someone comes in with a dysfunctional intrathecal pump? can u manage that? do you turn it off? fill it with saline? How about when a patient in your ASC has allergies to lots of opiates, can you guide the surgeon as to what to give to discharge them? how about dealing with patients on methadone or subutex or implanted pumps perioperatively? Sure you can manage these people, you can get them through, but are you doing it the most modern, proven effective way? or are you just regurgitating what you have always been doing since residency. I agree that blind spinals, epidurals, and basic US blocks generally go well without fellowship trained docs, as do most hearts without fellowship trained docs, but when things get advanced, trust me, the pain guys input is needed
 
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You are arguing about the inadequacy of training that you have not had. You may imagine what a pain fellowship is like, but thats just like me saying yeah i do a lot of hearts im just as good as the fellowship trained people.
I just looked at the curriculum at Cedars-Sinai, and imagined that the average pain fellowship is probably not better. 90+% of the stuff listed there is useless for OR anesthesia.

I am not saying that I am as good at everything as fellowship-trained people. I am saying that one does not need a fellowship for certain things. As much as it hurts some egos, one doesn't need a fellowship to anesthetize healthy kids for low-risk procedures, for example. Or for most neuro procedures. Or for a huge part of OB. Or for single-shot regional anesthesia. And the list can go on. Will fellowship-trained people be better at these than competent generalists? Probably, but it's the difference between good enough and better.
Let me ask you: how often have you done a remifentanyl PCA for labor analgesia, whats the data on that?
I haven't, but I doubt you learned that on the OB floor during your pain fellowship. Are you saying that one needs a pain fellowship to dose a Remi PCA?
can you do a caudal (+/- catheter) for laboring patients with hardware from prior spinal fusion?
No, I can't. Can you, without fluoro? How frequently do you need that skill in OB?
how about an epidural with hardware in place? above the scar? below the scar? can you do intrathecal with hardware in place?
Again the question comes if you can without fluoro. I know a number of anesthesiologists who would attempt it with US guidance. And again the question comes about how frequent and important this actually is.
what about a spinal cord stimulator placed for leg pain? can you do an epidural then? how about one placed for arm pain? is that any different?what if someone comes in with a dysfunctional intrathecal pump? can u manage that? do you turn it off? fill it with saline?
Now you are trying to do some grandstanding. I am sorry I overestimated you.
How about when a patient in your ASC has allergies to lots of opiates, can you guide the surgeon as to what to give to discharge them?
Yes, I can. And this, too, is extremely rare. Plus one can get a pain consult for that. ;)
how about dealing with patients on methadone or subutex or implanted pumps perioperatively? Sure you can manage these people, you can get them through, but are you doing it the most modern, proven effective way?
I might be doing it the "archaic" way (there is more than one way to skin a cat), but I don't see any department hiring pain people just for the OR, meaning that the way I/we do it is good enough. One doesn't need a pain fellowship for 99% of the pain-related stuff we deal with in the OR/PACU (and it doesn't make a big difference for 90% of them).
or are you just regurgitating what you have always been doing since residency. I agree that blind spinals, epidurals, and basic US blocks generally go well without fellowship trained docs, as do most hearts without fellowship trained docs, but when things get advanced, trust me, the pain guys input is needed
Rarely do things "get advanced" with OR anesthesia, and when they do, there are usually many other ways to bypass them. I am not arguing that a pain fellowship-trained anesthesiologist will not be outstanding at everything s/he was trained for. I am just saying that most of her training will not make big difference in the OR, something I cannot say about CCM.

So one should not do pain if one wants to practice only OR anesthesia. Again something I cannot say about CCM.

TL; DR
A pain fellowship background is about as relevant in most OR cases as CCM training is for ASA 1/2 patients.
 
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The nice thing about pain is that it gives you the possibility to be independent if you chose that in the future and you can even have your own office.
No other subspecialty in anesthesia offers that and it is a huge advantage in my opinion.
Agree 100%. But there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, because too many pain people are migrating back to anesthesia.
 
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