[Part #2, Real Life]- Financial Guru Dave Ramsey: No way to justify $480K debt for dental school

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Incis0r

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The first thread/video I shared (credits again to @Dipdoc ) received a lot of attention.

I wanted to show the other video here that Dipdoc shared over on the dental subforum. Without further ado, here it is:


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Maybe if I had gone for that left handed puppetry degree for my undergrad, I would have had a better GPA... He certainly is an opinionated fellow. I think almost everyone on SDN agrees that none of us want to spend $400k+ for a dental degree. However, some pre-dents don't have the opportunity to be admitted to a less costly institution. When that fails, there are other avenues for funding. Nothing we don't already know. He rubs me the wrong way because I really don't think he truly understands the dental profession or the income potential.
 
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It is evident that a lot of dental/pre-dental students think that they will make big money right out of dental school because they are now a DENTIST/DOCTOR. Many people still don't really realize how EXPENSIVE 400k+ is. I have a lot of pre-dental friends going into dentistry because they think they will become like a millionaire, and they really don't care about how expensive a school can get. They all say, "But I will be able to pay them back pretty fast."
I've explained many times and they're just too stupid to even understand about this whole finance.
 
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they really don't care about how expensive a school can get. They all say, "But I will be able to pay them back pretty fast."

To be fair, I used to be like this too.

Then I saw these threads and got a very quick jolt into reality:
Thread #1
Thread #2

When I start earning, I'm going to donate to SDN. It's seriously saved me from a LOT of trouble.
 
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He's certainly polarizing! I agree with him in some ways and don't in others. But it's always always good to be in the know about finances.
 
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I'm married to a physician with a specialty and her debt is only a little over half of that and we've bought a house. Financial advisors are extremely helpful. 480k is ridiculous.
 
Ramsey's a hack. He generalizes and ignores so many real truths about today's ability to move up in society. Just remember that for all the "civic service" advice he gives you, he's only doing it for profit on the radio and sells seminars for lots of money to speak at churches and auditoriums.

The problem with financial "experts" like Ramsey is that they lived in an era where the costs of ludicrous inflation on standard living, housing, food, and tuition were not exorbitantly unreasonable for consumers. Just look at the numbers even 25 years ago for going to college and having a part-time job. His generation isn't living in the harsh realities of being mobile.

Ramsey's argument is to only enroll in college for any semester you can personally finance or pay for straight-up - however, 2016 data shows that even full-time work hours for an in-state student (40 hours/week) wouldn't even be put in a dent towards tuition, housing, and food put together. Forget out-of-state rates.

We're dealing with a major loan bubble that will mimic the 2008 housing bubble of banks exploiting consumers unable to hold-up their financial obligations.

Truly, you should only enter a professional field with debt if you're 100% wholly committed to paying it off in a quick, aggressive timeframe. That's the only argument Ramsey is on-point with.
 
I would have joined navy at +400k
 
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I would have joined navy at +400k

I really think the HPSP, as we know it, will change. They won't cover 100% of tuition and fees in the future if these school costs keep rising. I think they'll cap it at like $60K/year of service.
 
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Maybe if I had gone for that left handed puppetry degree for my undergrad, I would have had a better GPA... He certainly is an opinionated fellow. I think almost everyone on SDN agrees that none of us want to spend $400k+ for a dental degree. However, some pre-dents don't have the opportunity to be admitted to a less costly institution. When that fails, there are other avenues for funding. Nothing we don't already know. He rubs me the wrong way because I really don't think he truly understands the dental profession or the income potential.

But his point is, at 400k+, it doesn't make sense to WANT dentistry (even if you really, really, like the job). At that point, as his thinking goes, pursuing the field isn't worth it financially. Salaries are falling, or at least greatly falling behind the tuition bubble. There are graduates that may spend their entire working careers paying off their loans. Whether they have graduated already, or will start graduating in 5-10 years, it remains to be seen.

I am not advocating for people who do not receive an acceptance from a cheaper school to give up. I just want to communicate his thinking, whether or not I agree with it, I can understand it, and I hope everyone on this site at least understands it.
 
I really think the HPSP, as we know it, will change. They won't cover 100% of tuition and fees in the future if these school costs keep rising. I think they'll cap it at like $60K/year of service.
I think they'll continue to cover costs fully. Paying for one's tuition doesn't compare to the price some pay serving their country, and the military understands that.
 
{venting}
 
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M
People at Dentaltown (a website of dentists, not speculative pre-dents) have (arbitrarily, yes, but not ignorantly) put the debt limit at 250k. Beyond that, dentistry doesn't make sense. For those needing loans, this leaves you with state schools.

And don't be led away to private schools by those who say "well some people don't have state schools, so it's what they have to do". False!

Off the top of my head I know Buffalo, Stony Brook, UNC, Rutgers, UConn, UCLA, and UCSF (in addition to maybe Maryland and Michigan) allow students to switch to in-state tuition.

Sorry to vent on this thread, but I've come off a few weeks of interviewing at the fancy private schools and the applicants are falling over themselves to attend these schools (despite coming from states with solid programs) and when it comes time to talk about the $$, they eat up the spiel given to them by the school: "Dentists makes big $$, you'll be fine. Wouldn't it be better to spend the money for the better experience? Look at all this school has to offer you!" and the applicants all nod in agreement.

There will be those who don't have the stats for the state schools as OOS, or have family ties, or have unlimited money that limit/expand their choices, but for the majority of my fellow pre-dents out there: Read threads like this! Or better, go to Dentaltown. Or even better: Talk to recent graduates.

I'm not saying don't go to private school under any circumstances. And I'm definitely not saying don't do dentistry ('cause it's awesome, that's why I'm doing it). But you better think about it long and hard, because we tend to get caught in a bubble of optimism. 480k in debt = 960k paid off over time (let's pray a 480k indebted student isn't thinking about residency). Dave Ramsey isn't in that bubble, which is why he flipped **** on Mrs.Dentistwife

"But isn't it better to have the once in a lifetime experience at a school you'll enjoy more?" Word for word, I was told this. This pretty much sums up the bubble.

Maybe I'm just an idiot, what do you guys think?
Mind linking the Dentaltown thread?
 
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Ramsey's a hack. He generalizes and ignores so many real truths about today's ability to move up in society. Just remember that for all the "civic service" advice he gives you, he's only doing it for profit on the radio and sells seminars for lots of money to speak at churches and auditoriums.

The problem with financial "experts" like Ramsey is that they lived in an era where the costs of ludicrous inflation on standard living, housing, food, and tuition were not exorbitantly unreasonable for consumers. Just look at the numbers even 25 years ago for going to college and having a part-time job. His generation isn't living in the harsh realities of being mobile.

I wouldn't call Ramsey a hack considering he's encouraged thousands of families to take on their debts successfully. Does he have his unique methods to get his point across? Sure. Does he earn a lot giving people fairly common financial advice through his books and seminars? Indeed. If you're good at something and successful at it it's generally a good thing to get compensated for it, right? This is America, after all. His advice is generally tailored to those deep in debt with almost zero financial literacy.

Really, he's more honest than your average CFP, brokerage, or banker will ever be. None of those people have a fiduciary duty to protect you financially from yourself.
 
I wouldn't call Ramsey a hack considering he's encouraged thousands of families to take on their debts successfully. Does he have his unique methods to get his point across? Sure. Does he earn a lot giving people fairly common financial advice through his books and seminars? Indeed. If you're good at something and successful at it it's generally a good thing to get compensated for it, right? This is America, after all. His advice is generally tailored to those deep in debt with almost zero financial literacy.

Really, he's more honest than your average CFP, brokerage, or banker will ever be. None of those people have a fiduciary duty to protect you financially from yourself.

Sorry, but contextual life advice matters, and he is most certainly a hack in that regard for people with education ambition. Yes, his simple advice for paying off debt / not going into debt applies to standard industry jobs and life in general, but it doesn't apply whatsoever to medicine and dentistry; because - shocker! - he didn't grow in an atmosphere where the inflation for professional education forces you to take out loans.

By his philosophy, he wouldn't recommend you ever going for dentistry if you have to take out a 4 year loan. But then again, he bankrupted himself twice and got out of it in an era where that was possible.
 
Sorry, but contextual life advice matters, and he is most certainly a hack in that regard for people with education ambition. Yes, his simple advice for paying off debt / not going into debt applies to standard industry jobs and life in general, but it doesn't apply whatsoever to medicine and dentistry; because - shocker! - he didn't grow in an atmosphere where the inflation for professional education forces you to take out loans.

By his philosophy, he wouldn't recommend you ever going for dentistry if you have to take out a 4 year loan. But then again, he bankrupted himself twice and got out of it in an era where that was possible.

I don't think he's incorrect about going into debt $480K to become a dentist, context be damned. Loans are the name of the game now for post-grad professionals, certainly. Mortgaging a house right at graduation is a bad move, he's not wrong there, but whatever he's a 'hack'.
 
As the woman who called into his show stated in the other thread, she and her husband were looking to buy the home they were already renting. If the mortgage is the same or lower than their rent was then no, it's not a bad move. In fact, if they are planning to stay in the market (which it sounds like they were) then it is probably a very good decision. Of course Ramsey would have known this had he allowed her to talk rather than condescending to her throughout the segment.
 
If the mortgage is the same or lower than their rent was then no, it's not a bad move.

I don't even know how much debt they will have from buying the house- let's say $250K. $480K student loans + $250K mortgage = $730K total debt.

Could still be a bad move to buy. What happens if the roof needs a repair? That's $5-10K right there. All repairs and maintenance will now fall on someone who is already $730K in debt.

Additionally, if they own, they are now responsible for all other costs...HOA, landscaping, etc.

It truly depends on the condition of the house.

Not to mention the fact - what if they developed a need to move to another part of the country? Suppose the husband gets an extremely lucrative job offer somewhere else? If they sell this house, they lose 5% in broker commission fees and another 3-4% in getting the house ready for sale. If they decide to rent it out, then they need to find a trustworthy property manager/tenants.
 
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As the woman who called into his show stated in the other thread, she and her husband were looking to buy the home they were already renting. If the mortgage is the same or lower than their rent was then no, it's not a bad move. In fact, if they are planning to stay in the market (which it sounds like they were) then it is probably a very good decision. Of course Ramsey would have known this had he allowed her to talk rather than condescending to her throughout the segment.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/10-reasons-why-residents-shouldnt-buy-a-house/

May as well peg the caller's household income as equivalent to a medical resident's income due to having nearly twice the average medical school debt for the scenario above.

Rent plus pay down student debt plus max out 401K / IRAs in index funds is a solid strategy. I can see why they want to buy, though, and the act of purchasing a home can be a very emotional decision. I hope they're successful in whatever direction they go with.
 
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My fiancee and I don't currently own a home because it works out better for us to rent at the moment. We also don't believe that homeownership has the same value or added benefit that it once did. That said, we do plan to own a home one day. For our unique circumstance however, renting was the better option for now. I can also understand why some people buy.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/10-reasons-why-residents-shouldnt-buy-a-house/

May as well peg the caller's household income as equivalent to a medical resident's income due to having nearly twice the average medical school debt for the scenario above.

Rent plus pay down student debt plus max out 401K / IRAs in index funds is a solid strategy. I can see why they want to buy, though, and the act of purchasing a home can be a very emotional decision. I hope they're successful in whatever direction they go with.

1) You don’t have a down payment.

Sounds like they had that figured out.

2) You don’t have any income

His income is double what medical residents make, and it will almost certainly only go up from there as he gets faster and produces more.

3) You have tons of debt already

True. They are also paying rent already...

4) Residency is only 3-5 years long

Does not apply to general dentists.

5) You can rent a house

They are renting a house. We lived in a rental home for 1 year and it would have saved us $400 per month to have purchased it. Sometimes it is cheaper to buy than it is to rent, it really depends on the market.

6) New home buyers underestimate the costs of ownership

This is an assumption.

7) You won’t want to live in that house as an attending

Perhaps, perhaps not. I know some surgeons who make a lot of money and still live in their condo from residency because they like it and don't have kids yet. They are saving a lot of money, and I think that is a wise financial plan. But buying the condo (as two of them did) is a wiser plan in the right market.

8) Home maintenance costs either time or money

Anyone who doesn't know this simply should not purchase a home, ever.

9) Residents don’t get a tax break for owning a home

Renters don't either.

10) Budgeting is easier as a renter

Assuming that the rent is the same as the mortgage + general maintenance + taxes (which it sounds like it may have been) then they will probably be just fine and they will be building equity.

I don't even know how much debt they will have from buying the house- let's say $250K. $480K student loans + $250K mortgage = $730K total debt.

Yep, that is a lot of money. You would be surprised at how much the rental probably costs them. Remember, landlords usually add their own property taxes and maintenance costs onto the mortgage. This is why we would have saved ~$400 per month to purchase the home we rented for one year. In the end, after we calculated everything on a spreadsheet, it came out pretty even to rent in the area we live in now unless you live here for 4+ years, then buying has a clear advantage assuming the market holds. Even then, you never lose if you don't sell for less than you purchased, and markets typically recover.

$400 x 12 = $4,800 lost in one year of renting, but you have to factor in maintenance costs (we had two minor repairs which cost maybe $400 total) and property taxes (which were high in our area). That is why it is best to calculate this stuff on a spreadsheet.

Could still be a bad move to buy. What happens if the roof needs a repair? That's $5-10K right there. All repairs and maintenance will now fall on someone who is already $730K in debt.

Risk is a risky thing.

Additionally, if they own, they are now responsible for all other costs...HOA, landscaping, etc.

Depends on where they are. Our new rental home requires no landscaping (Arizona) and we have no HOA.

It truly depends on the condition of the house.

They should know, they are already renting it.

Not to mention the fact - what if they developed a need to move to another part of the country? Suppose the husband gets an extremely lucrative job offer somewhere else? If they sell this house, they lose 5% in broker commission fees and another 3-4% in getting the house ready for sale. If they decide to rent it out, then they need to find a trustworthy property manager/tenants.

It's only a lucrative job if they can justify leaving the house behind and taking a loss on it. Otherwise, a job in their area would technically be more lucrative even if it paid less.

The possibility of moving is always there, and you always risk taking a loss on a home no matter when you decide to buy. As I said though, those costs would factor into any decision to move. Any decision to rent their property to tenants would also be theirs to make and would require even more calculations, spreadsheets, and discussions. I have some friends who have been successful and happy landlords.
 
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But, wait, MD could be easier when we consider financially?
I think education financing is the common problem for most health professionals.
 
But, wait, MD could be easier when we consider financially?
I think education financing is the common problem for most health professionals.

The cost of education is certainly cheaper, but the years spent in residency with little ability to pay down the loans means that they will grow significantly with interest. I have not run the numbers, and don't know if anyone truly has as it would be pretty difficult to assess the typical situation for all MD (and DO) programs + residencies vs. what is typical for dentistry. If I had to guess, I would say that the MD still comes out as a bit cheaper when all is said and done, but only by a bit.
 
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The cost of education is certainly cheaper, but the years spent in residency with little ability to pay down the loans means that they will grow significantly with interest. I have not run the numbers, and don't know if anyone truly has as it would be pretty difficult to assess the typical situation for all MD (and DO) programs + residencies vs. what is typical for dentistry. If I had to guess, I would say that the MD still comes out as a bit cheaper when all is said and done, but only by a bit.

Well, I know it depends on different residency programs, but as far as I know, most residencies are ranging from 3 to 5 years, brain surgeon even needs 7 to 10 years residency. In addition, residencies need to be 24-hours on call, which is even more financially unwise if you consider hour pay. Why don't justify MD education?
 
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