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It's not up to physicians to show that NPs/DNPs provide inferior care. It's up to the NPs/DNPs to show that they provide equivalent care as the current gold standard (ie. physicians).

Think of it in terms of pharmaceuticals. When a new drug comes out, it's not up to the company producing the current gold standard to show that the new drug is inferior. It's up to the company producing the new drug to show that it's equivalent (or superior) to the standard.

Which of course will never happen because

A. NPs can't practice independently, making metrics very difficult to measure
B. The AMA will lobby heavily against any comprehensive study of this nature being done. (The ramifications of it not coming out in the favor of MDs would be enormous)
C. Any smaller scale studies, of which I have listed many below, will be construed as "poorly designed". Even if every single one of them shows that experienced NPs are fully capable of operating independently in a family practice environment.

I'm all for having a gold standard of clinical outcomes that all caregivers should meet, however I don't believe that any gold standard should be solely based on education


There are no well-done studies suggesting NPs/DNPs provide equivalent care as physicians. There are, however, lots of poorly done studies measuring useless outcomes (ie. patient satisfaction) and NPs/DNPs seem to think this proves that they're equivalent to physicians (I could make a very sarcastic comment here considering the NP/DNP curricula has so many stats/research courses in it).

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819
http://www.annals.org/content/143/10/729.full

Actually just go here
http://www.acnpweb.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3321

It is this sort of arrogant attitude that is so annoying in the context of this debate. I understand many people on this board believe that the increased education of an MD makes them a far better clinician (FP) then an NP. This could even be a very valid argument, however beyond the figerpointing and trashtalking there seems to be very little substance too it.

Patient satisfaction is useless? I guess the fact that satisfied patients are more likely to follow recommendations, take medical advice seriously, and make timely hospital visits is pretty irrelevant.

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Which of course will never happen because

A. NPs can't practice independently, making metrics very difficult to measure
B. The AMA will lobby heavily against any comprehensive study of this nature being done. (The ramifications of it not coming out in the favor of MDs would be enormous)
C. Any smaller scale studies, of which I have listed many below, will be construed as "poorly designed". Even if every single one of them shows that experienced NPs are fully capable of operating independently in a family practice environment.

I'm all for having a gold standard of clinical outcomes that all caregivers should meet, however I don't believe that any gold standard should be solely based on education



http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819
http://www.annals.org/content/143/10/729.full

Actually just go here
http://www.acnpweb.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3321

It is this sort of arrogant attitude that is so annoying in the context of this debate. I understand many people on this board believe that the increased education of an MD makes them a far better clinician (FP) then an NP. This could even be a very valid argument, however beyond the figerpointing and trashtalking there seems to be very little substance too it.

Patient satisfaction is useless? I guess the fact that satisfied patients are more likely to follow recommendations, take medical advice seriously, and make timely hospital visits is pretty irrelevant.

The studies you posted may or may not be well designed, but more importantly, the questions they examined don't begin to answer the question of whether or not NP's should be allowed to practice independently. The fact that NP's better hit quality of care metrics for HIV care, for example, is not an argument that NP's should be given more autonomy. This is more of a condemnation of poor performance by MD's than evidence that nurses should practice independently.

Quality of care measures are important, but they only address care after the diagnosis is made. Diagnosis is probably the most important role of the physician, and until studies show that nurses are equivalent at diagnosing disease, their case is not made. BTW the very studies you posted show that NP's order more tests and make more referrals. Not exactly support for their cost savings claims.

I'd like to see a big randomized trial where NP's and MD's see the same patients on the same day for an initial visit. The tests they order, the diagnosis they come up with, the timeliness of that diagnosis, and the appropriateness of treatment, could all be compared against a gold standard of a small team of physicians and NP's examining the same patients. An alternative might be a retrospective audit of similar parameters in patients initially seen by MD's and NP's with comparison against a similar gold standard. Until then, the burden of proof should really be on the nurses. We don't implement a policy which could be this damaging to patients without first determining that care received is indeed equivalent.
 
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I understand many people on this board believe that the increased education of an MD makes them a far better clinician (FP) then an NP. This could even be a very valid argument, however beyond the figerpointing and trashtalking there seems to be very little substance too it.

What your argument boils down to, whether you realize it or not, is that more education/training doesn't equal being a better physician. Now, even if you accept that to be true -- which would be pretty incredible -- you've admitted that NPs are less educated than MDs. Now, if we're to accept YOUR argument, that would mean that we really should decrease the training of MDs because clearly the "baseline standard for minimum education required" would be that of an NP. So, would you agree to that?

We can easily prove who is better, by the way. But when I propose it, people get angry. All you have to do is have two patient populations, one ONLY cared for by NPs and one ONLY cared for by MDs. And if the NP population has poor outcomes, the MDs do not get involved. And vice versa, of course. All you have to do is tell patients that. There's your problem, however.
 
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What your argument boils down to, whether you realize it or not, is that more education/training doesn't equal being a better physician. Now, even if you accept that to be true -- which would be pretty incredible -- you've admitted that NPs are less educated than MDs. Now, if we're to accept YOUR argument, that would mean that we really should decrease the training of MDs because clearly the "baseline standard for minimum education required" would be that of an NP. So, would you agree to that?

+1 :thumbup:

What's even scarier is the new breed of direct entry 3-year RN/NP programs that accept students that haven't had a day of nursing or clinical experience. For example:

http://www.simmons.edu/shs/academics/nursing/degrees/direct_entry.shtml

"The GRE is no longer required for admission."

These direct entry NP graduates then come out, with no residency, and get paid more than double that of a first year resident who has both more formal education and clinical training.

If the quality of the current generation of NPs is merely tolerable (those who have had years of RN experience), can you imagine the crop of NPs (DNPs) 5-10 years from now? :scared: :scared: :scared:
 
Which of course will never happen because

A. NPs can't practice independently, making metrics very difficult to measure
B. The AMA will lobby heavily against any comprehensive study of this nature being done. (The ramifications of it not coming out in the favor of MDs would be enormous)
C. Any smaller scale studies, of which I have listed many below, will be construed as "poorly designed". Even if every single one of them shows that experienced NPs are fully capable of operating independently in a family practice environment.

I'm all for having a gold standard of clinical outcomes that all caregivers should meet, however I don't believe that any gold standard should be solely based on education




http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819
http://www.annals.org/content/143/10/729.full

Actually just go here
http://www.acnpweb.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3321

It is this sort of arrogant attitude that is so annoying in the context of this debate. I understand many people on this board believe that the increased education of an MD makes them a far better clinician (FP) then an NP. This could even be a very valid argument, however beyond the figerpointing and trashtalking there seems to be very little substance too it.

Patient satisfaction is useless? I guess the fact that satisfied patients are more likely to follow recommendations, take medical advice seriously, and make timely hospital visits is pretty irrelevant.


You are either very obtuse or simply ignorant of the difference in training between MDs and NPs.

I hope you don't really think that a part-time, online degree can provide training that is equivalent to thousands of clinical hours of medical school and residency.

Otherwise, basically, the NPs are just somehow telepathically gaining all of this knowledge that they have not been trained for?

Do you, sir or madam, believe in telepathic knowledge gain? Or how about a Matrix-style brain hookup? Yes, that must be what these NP programs can do... a Matrix style hookup! Genius! That's why they can get all the same training and more in HALF the calendar time and a FRACTION of the clinical hours!
 
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Not a jab at NPs perse, but while getting a wart frozen off(OF MY WRIST! :laugh:) the PA who was dabbing the N2 with a q-tip mentioned that warts were caused by a pesky fungi that prospers on human skin.

Needless to say, she received quite the bert stare.
 
...
 
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I'm speechless. Even RN's think they're doctors now.

Lake City ER sends starving disabled boy home with just a note

Lake City Medical Center cited for violations.

By PAUL WALSH and WARREN WOLFE, Star Tribune

Last update: June 17, 2010 - 8:16 PM

A severely disabled boy was wrongly sent home from a hospital emergency room in Lake City, Minn., without an assessment or treatment -- but with a note saying he was well enough to return to school -- after Wabasha County officials ordered the boy's parents to seek treatment for his unexplained injuries and weakness.

The next day, officials say, local authorities sent an ambulance to the boy's home and took him to a different hospital, where he was admitted for several days with what state investigators described as "severe malnutrition, starvation, bedsores and uncontrolled seizures."

In a report made public Thursday, the Minnesota Department of Health cited Mayo Health System's Lake City Medical Center for violating two federal rules on emergency room care. They concluded that a nurse at the hospital granted the father's request that the boy not be examined but be sent home with a note.

Lake City Police Chief Lyle Schumann said Thursday his office is investigating whether the family should be charged with a crime.

Under federal rules, the hospital should have recorded the boy's March 4 visit to the emergency room and conducted a medical assessment to determine whether he required emergency treatment -- regardless of what the father wanted -- said Stella French, who supervises the Health Department investigators.

The Health Department did not offer any identifying information about the boy, his family or any other individuals. County, hospital and police officials also declined to release the boy's name, age or school.

How the story unfolded

According to the Health Department report:

School nurses examined the boy on March 1 and 2 after he was absent for a week. They saw several open lesions on his back and noted he could not walk or feed himself and lay on a school cot in the fetal position. They contacted the parents both days and urged that he see a doctor. After the boy missed school on March 3, the school notified county social service officials of the boy's "urgent need for medical care."

Social service and law enforcement officials told the family to take the boy to an emergency room as soon as possible. The father took the boy to Lake City Medical Center that evening. He told the nurse that he didn't want his son examined by a doctor but wanted a note saying his son could return to school.

On a prescription pad, the nurse wrote that the boy was "vitally stable and there is no emergent/urgent need that needs our attention."


When Wabasha County social service officials discovered the next day that the boy had not been treated, they went to the house, were given the nurse's note by the father and immediately called an ambulance.

An administrative nurse at Lake City told the Health Department she reviewed the case with the emergency room nurse and counseled him about his performance.

Protocols not followed

In a statement Thursday afternoon, the hospital said "the child's condition did not appear to be serious when he was first seen in our emergency department."

However, it acknowledged "our policies and protocols, designed to protect patients, were not fully followed."

The hospital also noted that "we identified and implemented several improvements to our processes as a result of this situation to ensure that an incident like this does not happen again."

The nurse cited in the Health Department report is still employed at the hospital in acute care, said hospital spokeswoman Asia Christensen. She declined to say whether the nurse was disciplined in any way. No appeal of the state's findings is planned, Christensen said.​
 
I'm speechless. Even RN's think they're doctors now.
Lake City ER sends starving disabled boy home with just a note

Lake City Medical Center cited for violations.

By PAUL WALSH and WARREN WOLFE, Star Tribune

Last update: June 17, 2010 - 8:16 PM

A severely disabled boy was wrongly sent home from a hospital emergency room in Lake City, Minn., without an assessment or treatment -- but with a note saying he was well enough to return to school -- after Wabasha County officials ordered the boy's parents to seek treatment for his unexplained injuries and weakness.

The next day, officials say, local authorities sent an ambulance to the boy's home and took him to a different hospital, where he was admitted for several days with what state investigators described as "severe malnutrition, starvation, bedsores and uncontrolled seizures."

In a report made public Thursday, the Minnesota Department of Health cited Mayo Health System's Lake City Medical Center for violating two federal rules on emergency room care. They concluded that a nurse at the hospital granted the father's request that the boy not be examined but be sent home with a note.

Lake City Police Chief Lyle Schumann said Thursday his office is investigating whether the family should be charged with a crime.

Under federal rules, the hospital should have recorded the boy's March 4 visit to the emergency room and conducted a medical assessment to determine whether he required emergency treatment -- regardless of what the father wanted -- said Stella French, who supervises the Health Department investigators.

The Health Department did not offer any identifying information about the boy, his family or any other individuals. County, hospital and police officials also declined to release the boy's name, age or school.

How the story unfolded

According to the Health Department report:

School nurses examined the boy on March 1 and 2 after he was absent for a week. They saw several open lesions on his back and noted he could not walk or feed himself and lay on a school cot in the fetal position. They contacted the parents both days and urged that he see a doctor. After the boy missed school on March 3, the school notified county social service officials of the boy's "urgent need for medical care."

Social service and law enforcement officials told the family to take the boy to an emergency room as soon as possible. The father took the boy to Lake City Medical Center that evening. He told the nurse that he didn't want his son examined by a doctor but wanted a note saying his son could return to school.

On a prescription pad, the nurse wrote that the boy was "vitally stable and there is no emergent/urgent need that needs our attention."


When Wabasha County social service officials discovered the next day that the boy had not been treated, they went to the house, were given the nurse's note by the father and immediately called an ambulance.

An administrative nurse at Lake City told the Health Department she reviewed the case with the emergency room nurse and counseled him about his performance.

Protocols not followed

In a statement Thursday afternoon, the hospital said "the child's condition did not appear to be serious when he was first seen in our emergency department."

However, it acknowledged "our policies and protocols, designed to protect patients, were not fully followed."

The hospital also noted that "we identified and implemented several improvements to our processes as a result of this situation to ensure that an incident like this does not happen again."

The nurse cited in the Health Department report is still employed at the hospital in acute care, said hospital spokeswoman Asia Christensen. She declined to say whether the nurse was disciplined in any way. No appeal of the state's findings is planned, Christensen said.​

It appears the hospital didnt even do anything about this situation with the nurse. Scary stuff.
 
Wait, was the nurse wearing a long white coat though??? To me, this makes all the difference. If so, the whole case is kind of moot. Ugh, I hope the kid is okay.
 
I'm speechless. Even RN's think they're doctors now.

Come on now. If you knew anything about emergency medicine its pretty clear that this nurse was too lazy to actually triage the patient and just gave the note to the father to make them go away. To say that RN's are trying to be doctors because of this incident is ridiculous.

That nurse should be fired. I hope the boy is OK.
 
Come on now. If you knew anything about emergency medicine its pretty clear that this nurse was too lazy to actually triage the patient and just gave the note to the father to make them go away. To say that RN's are trying to be doctors because of this incident is ridiculous.

That nurse should be fired. I hope the boy is OK.

This.

I don't think the stupidity/laziness of one RN should be used to condemn the profession as a whole. I just don't find this is relevant to this thread/subject as a whole.
 
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I am all for fighting the DNP movement and stopping NPs from having complete independence with the paucity of education they have, but I have to agree with you.

A single story proves nothing. I am sure someone could show a doctor who did something similar. Neither proves a thing.

Agreed. Even the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"
 
Your loved one (grandmother, mother, spouse/significant other, child) is out of town. Complaining of malaise, nausea, diarrhea, headache, and a 101 fever. The town he/she is in has a teaching hospital - currently in the ED are a M4, intern, resident, chief resident and attending. There's a clinic w/ an NP. They are both the same distance from the hotel. I'll include that the clinic w/ the NP is $50/visit. Your loved one's copay for an ED visit is $100. So it's cheaper to go to the NP.

Where are you sending your loved one??? If you choose the hospital, from whom would you prefer treatment?

If you say NP, well congrats. You truly believe in the skills, knowledge and abilities of the NP. Even the lower price. You may feel free to defend your NP=MD/DO stance, free of the emotional scenario, and USE DATA (since anectodes are insufficient)

If you would prefer to send your loved one to the teaching hospital, I will mostly predict you want the attending to treat your loved one.

Those of us who are choosing the attending what is our main reason for that? The attending has the MOST CLINICAL EXPERIENCE! Right? Mostly the SAME amount of education from the 4th year thru to the attending. But that attending has the most CLINICAL experience.

Rebuttal (from anyone choosing the NP)??? Comments?
 
I'm speechless. Even RN's think they're doctors now.

Lake City ER sends starving disabled boy home with just a note

Lake City Medical Center cited for violations.

By PAUL WALSH and WARREN WOLFE, Star Tribune

Last update: June 17, 2010 - 8:16 PM

A severely disabled boy was wrongly sent home from a hospital emergency room in Lake City, Minn., without an assessment or treatment -- but with a note saying he was well enough to return to school -- after Wabasha County officials ordered the boy's parents to seek treatment for his unexplained injuries and weakness.

The next day, officials say, local authorities sent an ambulance to the boy's home and took him to a different hospital, where he was admitted for several days with what state investigators described as "severe malnutrition, starvation, bedsores and uncontrolled seizures."

In a report made public Thursday, the Minnesota Department of Health cited Mayo Health System's Lake City Medical Center for violating two federal rules on emergency room care. They concluded that a nurse at the hospital granted the father's request that the boy not be examined but be sent home with a note.

Lake City Police Chief Lyle Schumann said Thursday his office is investigating whether the family should be charged with a crime.

Under federal rules, the hospital should have recorded the boy's March 4 visit to the emergency room and conducted a medical assessment to determine whether he required emergency treatment -- regardless of what the father wanted -- said Stella French, who supervises the Health Department investigators.

The Health Department did not offer any identifying information about the boy, his family or any other individuals. County, hospital and police officials also declined to release the boy's name, age or school.

How the story unfolded

According to the Health Department report:

School nurses examined the boy on March 1 and 2 after he was absent for a week. They saw several open lesions on his back and noted he could not walk or feed himself and lay on a school cot in the fetal position. They contacted the parents both days and urged that he see a doctor. After the boy missed school on March 3, the school notified county social service officials of the boy's "urgent need for medical care."

Social service and law enforcement officials told the family to take the boy to an emergency room as soon as possible. The father took the boy to Lake City Medical Center that evening. He told the nurse that he didn't want his son examined by a doctor but wanted a note saying his son could return to school.

On a prescription pad, the nurse wrote that the boy was "vitally stable and there is no emergent/urgent need that needs our attention."


When Wabasha County social service officials discovered the next day that the boy had not been treated, they went to the house, were given the nurse's note by the father and immediately called an ambulance.

An administrative nurse at Lake City told the Health Department she reviewed the case with the emergency room nurse and counseled him about his performance.

Protocols not followed

In a statement Thursday afternoon, the hospital said "the child's condition did not appear to be serious when he was first seen in our emergency department."

However, it acknowledged "our policies and protocols, designed to protect patients, were not fully followed."

The hospital also noted that "we identified and implemented several improvements to our processes as a result of this situation to ensure that an incident like this does not happen again."

The nurse cited in the Health Department report is still employed at the hospital in acute care, said hospital spokeswoman Asia Christensen. She declined to say whether the nurse was disciplined in any way. No appeal of the state's findings is planned, Christensen said.​
They concluded that a nurse at the hospital granted the father's request that the boy not be examined but be sent home with a note.
..
Hey man, it's about patient satisfaction. .
 
holy necrobump batman

EDIT: oh, you were updating us on the outcome of the case. how timely those wheels of justice.
 
It is doubtful that NPs/DNPs could do any worse of a job than physicians are doing now. Bring them on.
 
People will point to isolated incidences of harm, blow them out of proportion and make false generalizations, but over time patients who are free to choose their providers will always make better choices for themselves than the government will make for them.
 
can someone summarize what happned so I don't have to bother reading any of this?
I'm dying of curiosity but won't do anything to sate it
 
The only thing that can force patients to patronize incompetent providers is a government that protects incompetence from competition, which is exactly what today's licensing laws do.
 
The only thing that can force patients to patronize incompetent providers is a government that protects incompetence from competition, which is exactly what today's licensing laws do.
That sentence makes literally no sense. Competition is exactly what's enabled CVS minute clinics and doc-in-the-box urgent cares to spring up.
 
That sentence makes literally no sense. Competition is exactly what's enabled CVS minute clinics and doc-in-the-box urgent cares to spring up.
  1. The sentence makes perfect sense even if you don’t like what it says.
  2. The providers you’re referring to aren’t exempt from licensing laws, just held to a different standard than physicians. Licensing laws also eliminate their competition as well.
  3. What evidence do you have that patients are actually worse off as a result of having the freedom to access the providers in question, or even that said providers render worse care than physicians in the first place? Keep in mind that isolated examples, editorials posturing as journalism, and your feelings aren’t evidence.
 
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It's not up to physicians to show that NPs/DNPs provide inferior care. It's up to the NPs/DNPs to show that they provide equivalent care as the current gold standard (ie. physicians).

What utter dog ****. YOU are the one making the positive claim—which is that stringent laws are needed to "protect the public" from NPs/DNPs—and therefore YOU bear the burden of proving that such laws do more good than harm. The laws of logic decide this, not laws of men like the ones that cripple the biotech industry. And why are physicians the gold standard? Why shouldn't they have to prove that they provide equivalent care as members of other disciplines or backgrounds that the government is regulating out of existence?
 
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  1. The sentence makes perfect sense even if you don’t like what it says.
  2. The providers you’re referring to aren’t exempt from licensing laws, just held to a different standard than physicians. Licensing laws also eliminate their competition as well.
  3. What evidence do you have that patients are actually worse off as a result of having the freedom to access the providers in question, or even that said providers render worse care than physicians in the first place? Keep in mind that isolated examples, editorials posturing as journalism, and your feelings aren’t evidence.
1. No, it doesn't. The government's licensing is designed specifically to weed out incompetence. Literally, the various medical boards job is to protect the public - that is their only purpose.
2. What lack of competition are you blathering about? There is plenty of competition out there already. There are 12 internists and 24 family doctors within 1 mile of my office - and that doesn't count urgent cares. Best I can tell, there are about 15 midlevels in the same radius in primary care, again ignoring urgent care/CVS. How is that not enough competition? Note: I am in a southern city, fairly low density - I recognize that these numbers wouldn't be worth much in somewhere like NYC or SF.
3. As has been mentioned in other threads, I can't design a study whose purpose is to prove that midlevels or unlicensed providers are inferior to physicians - this study wouldn't pass any IRB in the world. But having worked in an urgent care that was a referral center for the CVS clinics, having shared office space with an NP in residency, and now in private practice having patients come to me in droves because their previous doctors were hiring midlevels I can tell that on the whole NPs do not possess our skill set or knowledge base. Now we can argue whether that matters (do you really need all of our training to tell someone they have a cold and to go take Sudafed) or whether or not the majority of doctors actually use their knowledge (I know many family doctors that refer out uncomplicated a-fib for goodness sake), but that's more the fault of our current payment system than anything.
 
The licensing boards are supposed to protect the public and for the most part do a good job. However, I am sure we all know of physicians who should no longer be licensed to practice.

Competition in medicine doesn't work like it should. Patients have very little sense for who is good and who isn't. When it comes to speciality care, they rely on their PCPs to make referrals. Some PCPs have a good sense for which specialists are good and which aren't. Some, however, just refer to their buddy down the road. Either way, the patient rarely gets much of a say.
 
The licensing boards are supposed to protect the public and for the most part do a good job. However, I am sure we all know of physicians who should no longer be licensed to practice.

Competition in medicine doesn't work like it should. Patients have very little sense for who is good and who isn't. When it comes to speciality care, they rely on their PCPs to make referrals. Some PCPs have a good sense for which specialists are good and which aren't. Some, however, just refer to their buddy down the road. Either way, the patient rarely gets much of a say.
It doesn't have to be that way though. I often have patients ask about certain specialists that they've either seen advertisements about or have friends who say good/bad things. I try to give my honest assessments about them - including those I'm friends with.
 
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