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pay so low?

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by pharmasaur, 04.12.12.

  1. sfwusc

    sfwusc Pre Med Student

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    I don't have any more than 1x est. first year salary, but 3x salary for 30k vs. 90k isn't fair.

    Someone making $30k isn't going to have much of anything to pay student loans with after rent/food/clothing/etc. Someone at 90k is going to have money to pay the loans. Are they going to be living the good life....not for awhile, but they could likely pay the money back. 90K in student loans on 30k is never going to be paid back...that is like 20% of your salary a year in interest when close to 100% of take home pay is needed to actually live.

    If you need $2k a month to live, then you are basically not make the payment at $30k salary with $90k in debt.
    If you need $2k a month to live, then you can make say $3,107.17 a month payment on your $270k in debt @6.8% for 10 years.
  2. MountainPharmD

    MountainPharmD custodiunt illud simplex

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    Insane. There is no way you should consider doing this.
  3. psychoandy

    psychoandy Junior Member

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    kind of misleading; I don't consider an outpatient clinic position to be the same as a "clinical specialist". and if you look at their regular med/surg pharmacist (standard inpt position), start rate is 41.35/hr. if you look at pedi evening pharmacist, start rate is 41.35/hr. if you look at staff rph who checks stuff all day, start rate is 41.35/hr. finally, evening/weekend critical care pharmacist starts at, you guessed it, 41.35/hr.

    what does that lead me to believe? that these numbers don't mean jack chit. this is probably the very lowest amount they will pay, thus it is how much they offer new grads because they can, but anyone with decent exp/more qualified for the job will be able to ask for 45-50 IMO. once you learn critical thinking skills you will excel in pharmacy school.

    also keep in mind that Shands is in the middle of what I consider BFE, so cost of living is low; and I assume they get 15% differential for evenings, which boosts min pay to 47.15/hr. not retail money, but IMO pretty dece.

    personally, i took the pay cut; I would much rather be able to sit for more than 1 hour/day AND be able to eat lunch outside of the pharmacy without people looking at me funny or like i'm doing less work. i also enjoy having dialogue with physicians, midlevels, and nurses much moreso than crackheads who want a 2 week early fill on their klonopin, ativan, neurontin, flexeril, soma, vicodan, etc. there are a lot more benefits to working in institutional settings compared to retail IMO.

    this, so much. a couple years ago, economic models were built so that it was impossible to create a scenario where there is a negative year in housing. i think pharmacists are the same way. everyone is getting over 100k in loans and at the same time expects to make 110k and more, and that the salary will never go down. boggles my mind why people don't hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

    also the economy IMO is more of a problem than new grads (except for those damn for-profit school kids). fwiw, all of my retail new grad colleagues are still breaking 50/hr.
  4. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    What psycho said.
    Hospital pay grade structure requires an understanding. Hell...I can go to HR and change the entry level grade to $29 min to $45 mid. It doesn't mean They will start at $29.

    Salary grade isn't solely allocated to pharmacy. Its used by every dept. That $39 to$44 is probably used by other dept and other positions also.
  5. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    Z, you said earlier you start your newly qualifieds on 150 are your top earners on 215?
  6. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    Yup.....more than that including the bonus.
  7. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    Though the top earner is not at the top of the scale the bonus will top over it. You haven't been here long enough to know what I used to do and how I ended up where I am today.
  8. cycloketocaine

    cycloketocaine

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    [​IMG]
  9. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    :smuggrin:

    When I get home tonight I will post the job listings for CA
  10. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    I understand what you are getting at, but bottom line is...anyone who is willing to pay a $3000+ per month student loan debt for 10 years while living off roughly $2000 a month is crazy in my book. Savings? Vacations? Dining out? Fun money? New/decent car? Nice/decent place? Emergency funds? Retirement?

    How does that kind of living situation leave any room for any of the above, not too mention make for a reasonably happy life? I don't see it, but hey to each their own.
  11. Ackj

    Ackj

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    Not only is it possible, but millions of Americans are doing it. Minus the savings, vacation, and 'new/nice/decent.' Then again, it's harder to pull the silver spoon out of somebody's mouth, so if you grew up not expecting all that stuff, it's easy to have a low budget.
  12. type b pharmD

    type b pharmD

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    Youve hit the nail on the head as to why IBR has no income limit and also respects a time honored 1:1 salary to debt ratio recommendation (and 10-15% of gross income toward loans recommendation).

    If someone has 300k in debt, but would be expected to pay 90% of their income on a 120k income toward debt, but only 10-15% of their income toward debt on a lower income bracket, standard of living calculations actually disincentivize seeking out a high paying job. Society benefits most when people can work in their field of expertise and have a low default risk. Paying back 75+% of your income toward loans is basically asking for a default if something was to go wrong on a day to day basis (what about if car breaks down or house catches fire for example). If my standard of living post graduation was going to be the same working as a pharmacist as if i was working as a walmart greeter, I'd go take the minimum wage job, way less stressful!
  13. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    I get these weekly....

  14. StevePerry

    StevePerry

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    Option #6 looks sweet. Where's it at? (Probably Bakersfield or Lake Isabella or some ****...)

    No salary listed either, go figure...

    How many effing people you think are going to apply for that one??? :smuggrin:
  15. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    Z , wow, you start your newly qualifIeds at the same rate as directors of pharmacy. Sorry, posted twice in error oops.
  16. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    Z, wow, you start your newly qualifieds at the same rate as directors of pharmacy in CA?
  17. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    Of course, I completely understand and realize that unfortunately this is the reality of many people here in the U.S. and much more overseas in less fortunate countries. But again, why would anyone in their right mind spend all that time, money and sacrifice to acquire a Doctorate of Pharmacy degree only to spend ~70% of their income repaying their enormous loans. Can anyone honestly say they would be happy living off of ~$24,000/yr for 10 years while working as a Pharmacist? I highly doubt it. If you don't know what I am talking about, I am referring to sfwusc's prior post.

    Lastly, I wouldn't clarify anything I said in my previous post as "silver spoon" status or lifestyle. Last time I checked, having or wanting to have a savings account, money for retirement, vacations, spending money, emergency funds, nice/decent house, car, etc, etc are pretty basic goals most Americans thrive for and many achieve. Not saying those things have to be outlandish or over-the-top. Being modest and smart with your money is the key, live within your means but enjoy life and plan for the future. All of which are easily attainable with average loan debt, pharmacist salary and possibly a spouse's contributing salary.
  18. Rph888

    Rph888

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    I hope this is some sort of sick joke. not even funny :(
  19. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    Hello Hello2000, I appreciate your obsession but you're getting creepy.. Let it go man..

    :smuggrin:




  20. sfwusc

    sfwusc Pre Med Student

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    This is true, but it isn't the whole picture....you will be living like a pharmacist in year 11 to retirement. So the whole going make minimum wage doesn't look as good.

    The point is....going into debt more than 1x salary is going to make years after college be a lot less fruitful than they could be. Then again...if it is take on $300K in debt and be a pharmacist vs. $0 debt and minimum wage ---- the $300K is worth it. Though if you can find a school for $100K...you would be stupid to borrow the money.
  21. sfwusc

    sfwusc Pre Med Student

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    My post was to the guy would had the choice of $300K in debt to earn the PharmD vs. No PharmD.

    You suck it up for 10 years (thank goodness I won't have to do that), and you are in the same boat income wise as other pharmacist. You might be way behind in net worth and can never catch up to your peers, but you will finish away ahead of a lot of normal people in the end.
  22. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    Gotcha, it's debatable and a coin flip for most people I guess. I would just say that "sucking it up" for 10 years is much more easier said than done. Just thinking about the years of undergrad and pharmacy school "sucking it up" in order to achieve a Doctorate and good job...now essentially live like a hermit for 10 years and be a slave to student loans? That's 16-18 years of living a very meager life, it will take its toll on you.

    I just think it's too big of a gamble and god forbid something major happened (medical, etc) during those 10 years, it could essentially cripple a person economically forever.
  23. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    No, if z gives you a job you'll be sorted :-D
  24. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    Actually, I've been reading his posts. He actually would be a great hire....he provably has a great business sense as a wags store manager and he will learn the necessary clinical skills. Now you on the other hand......I've never hired a foreign grad before and there's no reason to start now.:smuggrin:
  25. Jackie B

    Jackie B

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    Z's post is reassuring but keep in mind half of the advertisements were for directors/assistant directors. In my research of the market there seems to be plenty of opportunities for DOPs but that's b/c there is less "old" people and so many new grads. Many postings I come across for clinical/staff positions say 1 yr residency AND 2-3 yrs experience. Just means you probably need to make excellent connections because I have virtually seen 0 entry-level positions posted that say they will take new grads.
  26. joetrisman

    joetrisman

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    I always thought DOP jobs were plentiful because pharmacists generally don't like to be management.
  27. owlegrad

    owlegrad Uncontrollable Sarcasm Machine Staff Member Administrator SDN Senior Moderator

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    That has been my impression as well. Also it seems that younger pharmacists are the ones more likely to take those openings - I know many, many slightly older pharmacists that have no interest in "moving up that ladder". Many pharmacists seem pretty happy to cash their paychecks and stay at the minimum level of responsibility. Can't say I blame them really, the money is good either way, not everyone wants any more than that from their job.
  28. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    Haha! Thanks Z, appreciate the vote of confidence. Slight clarification though, I was an Assistant Manager for Wags not a Store Manager. But hey, tomato tomahto
    Last edited: 04.18.12
  29. Rx MPLS

    Rx MPLS

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    Many other students heading to pharmacy school must be much more optimistic than I am. There is absolutely no way I would take out $300k in debt for a PharmD.

    I still bite my nails thinking about the debt I will be taking on in my second, third and fourth years in school. Still, my debt will be nowhere remotely close to $300k.
  30. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    Agreed, same here. I'm looking at about ~150K and that makes me very uncomfortable. I'm fortunate to have a spouse that makes a average/decent wage, enough that I don't have to max out my loans for COL and so forth but am still living a bit like a hermit for now. I just think many students don't fully understand the reality or magnitude of such crippling debt, it's not monopoly money. I have many good friends and acquaintances in my class that are borrowing in excess of 60K/yr (tuition = 26K/yr), yet they use it to party, buy new gadgets, etc, like it's just "free money".
  31. floydfloyd

    floydfloyd

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    My wife and I have been living on 24-28K per year for three years and we are perfectly happy. Can we get ALL the things we want? No. But because we are frugal and don't splurge for the coolest phones or even for cable TV, we have plenty of money to still go out to eat and to the movies, to have two cars fully paid for, and even have saved tens of thousands for the future.

    If I have to do that for another eight years, heck even 14 more years, I will be perfectly fine. I've never been rich and I just want to be a pharmacist. The job has attracted me, not the pay.
  32. xKenny

    xKenny

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    :thumbup:
    Same goes for me.
  33. Aznfarmerboi

    Aznfarmerboi Senior Member

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    Thats nice. Have you ever seen a retail pharmacist work before?
  34. Brock Landers

    Brock Landers

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    Interesting discussion. I work at FDA and actually make in the range that most of you are scoffing at. For me it is worth it because I genuinely enjoy my job and feel like the work is important. Plus government benefits and the work schedule are great. A bit ironic though that new grads are making significantly more than experienced professionals responsible for approving new drugs.
  35. Rx MPLS

    Rx MPLS

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    It's not a question of pay, it's a question of the ratio of loans you take out versus your pay. When you take out so many loans you can't start saving for retirement until many years after school, you significantly decrease your long term retirement possibilities -- which is a scary thought, since Social Security likely won't be around when most of us are older.

    I don't want to be on Medicaid as a senior citizen. That is why I wouldn't go to pharmacy school if it cost too much and the pay was too low (I'm not in it for the money, but I am completely a realist).
  36. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    There's only one way of making a small fortune from pharmacy ...................... start with a large one. :p
  37. floydfloyd

    floydfloyd

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    Yes, I have. I've also seen hospital pharmacists work. I would rather be in a hospital.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at.
  38. joetrisman

    joetrisman

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    :thumbup:
  39. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    I think Brock was referring to the previous/earlier posts about the $39-44/hr salaries around the country and so forth, not necessarily the debate regarding loan debt vs income ratio. But yes, I completely agree with you, taking on the burden of a 250-300K debt for a ~100K Pharmacist job in this market is very dangerous.
  40. Eichhoernchen

    Eichhoernchen

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    So what kind of debt would you tell a student that it is okay to take out for a pharmacy education?
  41. Brock Landers

    Brock Landers

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    Right, I was referring to the initial comments about salaries. In any case, taking on a 300k debt for a 100k pharmacist job is certainly dangerous, but I'd argue that it's still safer than the average college student sinking 100+k on a bachelors in something like communications.
  42. chrispharm

    chrispharm

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    Well that helps alot.

    Exactly the same way i feel.
  43. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    I'd agree with that. While both are dangerous, having the higher education and specialization would make the Pharmacy approach safer in comparison to an Undergrad degree.
  44. TonyRx

    TonyRx Hamburglar

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    Well, the wisest and correct decision financially is to never pay more for school than you would make in a year. But we all know that is basically impossible this day in age (due to so many factors that could be a whole forum on it's own), so I'd say 2:1 ratio should be the ceiling. So, 200K in total debt on an average ~100K Pharmacist salary. Keep in mind that after taxes that ~100K is more like ~60-70K...which is why I think 200K should really be the max and is technically not even 2:1 on net pay. I'm sure many on this forum would even argue that 200K is too high, and I couldn't necessarily disagree with them.
  45. Eichhoernchen

    Eichhoernchen

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    I think I will have around ~40k, maybe a little more, a little less, but I am still very worried.It would still take years to repay...
  46. MountainPharmD

    MountainPharmD custodiunt illud simplex

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    The way health care is going especially pharmacy I would not pay out more than half my first years salary for my education. Any more than that is crazy and setting yourself up for failure. If it is not possible to go to pharmacy school for four years for 50k to 60 k then there is a big problem.
  47. Pharmacy Kid

    Pharmacy Kid LT Smash

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    Tuition alone for many in-state schools are $20000/year or $80000 total.
  48. Its Z

    Its Z Retired

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    For our class the rule of thumb was to borrow 1 year worth of salary...our expected salary was 60k and I borrowed 50k.
  49. Hello2000

    Hello2000

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    I practice in UK but I am FPGEE certified hence my unhealthy interest in pharmacy in US, I would just like to clarify, is it mandatory to do a BS degree before going to pharmacy school in the US? If so, wow you are going to be studying for 8 years before you get a proper job. In the UK we go straight to pharmacy school direct from high school, in my day it was BSc (UK terminology), but now it is an MPharm 4year course then we have to do one year pre-registration (paid) work and an exam, so five years to qualify fully. We haven't quite reached the heady heights of the PharmD here in the UK yet.

    Oh, forgot to add, here in Scotland (but not England) we get free tuition fees in all courses. Same applies for medicine, dentistry etc go straight from high school and get free tuition fees :oops:
  50. eagleface

    eagleface

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    Regarding the declining jobs and pay, pharmacists need to show their capabilities and potential more to demonstrate that they're underutilized. This would pressure the states to allow pharmacists to expand their business and hire more pharmacists.


    No, but it's becoming a "de facto" requirement for many people and it's a requirement at some pharmacy schools. The average length of time for a US PharmD degree is about 7 years.

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