Penn vs. Harvard

[small0424]

Hi everyone, so I'm really blessed to have multiple acceptances at some top-notch schools and I need to make a tough decision. I almost made up my mind on Penn before Harvard called me this afternoon, which makes me torn again..Both are really great schools. The costs of attendance are similar, with Harvard being a little cheaper but the living expense in Boston will probably be higher. I've constructed a list of pros and cons and would greatly appreciate any insight on these two schools.

Penn
Pros:
1. Good clinical training. I like the DAU program that allows firstyears to assist upperclassmen in the clinic. I know that Penn is notorious for its dungeon-like preclinical lab. But I've attended a one-week summer program and worked there and felt it was not that bad. The 3-D virtual lab is impressive. I heard that the clinical faculty are really top-class and students get a lot of hands-on due to the graduate requirements. I'm not sure if I want to specialize, so keeping the option of general practice open is definitely important to me.
2. dental-geared curriculum. I'm actually not a big fan of taking classes with medical students and would prefer to have the curriculum geared towards dentistry. Plus all the basic sciences are taught by dental faculty so I imagine they understand the mentality of dental students better.
3. Externship opportunities. Philly is in a great location and Penn has a lot of connections with surrounding hospital-based dental programs. Also as an international student I find the international externships quite interesting.
4. UPenn campus. It's located on the same campus with the undergrad college and all other schools. I think it will be exciting to meet with people from other disciplines instead of stuck in the health professional group.
Cons:
1. neighborhood safety. I'm not sure about this. Some people say it gets sketchy and others say it's not that bad.
2. Grading system and competitiveness.

Harvard
Pros:
1. Reputation. As people said every regular Joe knows Harvard.
2. Boston. It's not as well-connected to NYC or DC as Philly, but I love the city of Boston.
3. Pass/Fail. People say it's less stress. But I feel like it's offset by the larger volume of material you have to learn in the biomedical curriculum. Would really appreciate feedback on that.
Cons:
1. Clinical training. Like I said I don't want to rule out my option of general practice and I feel like the lack of preclinical training in the first two years would leave me with no choice but to specialize.
2. Medical curriculum. I don't think I will be miserable with this, just not a big fan of it. Also I don't know how I feel about PBL. Never really encountered a student who said he/she likes it. Met some people who did express their dislikings for PBL.


I feel like since I'm leaning toward Penn I'm doing too much research on the good aspects of it, which makes me more biased.. That's why I'm making this post to get more objective opinions. Thank you in advance!

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[BIGMEECHY]

HARVARD...and yes, just because of the name.

 

[gobblergiant]

Wow...I wanted acceptances from both places but still haven't received any rejections or interview invites. Congrats!

I would have to say it really depends on your career goal. Do you want to be a clinician or go into academia? Clinically, U Penn is better. If you are wanting academics, go Harvard. Harvard will prepare you really well for the academic portion but not so much clinically. However, clinical skills can be developed with residency programs and other post-grad programs. The research and academic writing skills require a lot of time and patience to develop and I would recommend Harvard for that. If you are more inclined to be a clinician making money, go with U Penn due to its opportunities in the clinical aspect. Both are well known with regards to name so it shouldn't matter where you go.

I honestly think there are better clinically oriented schools than U Penn.

 

[modularelliptical]

Flip a coin........

 

[cacajuate]

Flip a coin........

Do this and that split second thought while the coin is in the air will give you your answer. No need to even see if its heads or tais

 

[Miriemirie]

Addressing your concerns about the area around UPenn: it really isn't that bad. People who call it sketchy must not have that much experience living in a big city, since that's exactly what it is. I'm a NYC transplant, and I've been in Philly for two years now- I actually find the area around the school pretty safe and well patrolled. There are of course areas that are less safe, but they are far from the school and easy to avoid if you feel uncomfortable.

 

[mordred]

HARVARD...and yes, just because of the name.

Agreed. I am still waiting for my first acceptance, likely from a school in a whole different league (and will be happy to have one!). Having acknowledged that, I'll just comment that most people outside of the ivy community, and the dental community probably don't know much about Penn, or even that it's any ivy. Everyone knows what Harvard is.

I would kill to go to Penn personally, but am just stating the reality for the majority of people in my social circles who don't know much about universities beyond the state flagship. This feels sort of like a "single A" minor league player giving advice to a major league player about which free agency offer to sign though. Congrats man, I'm envious!

 

[artvandelay786]

Can't go wrong with either. Congratulations OP!

Your dilemma is a rather nice one to have..

 

[marimar]

I'm having the same problem (haha) as you. I'm also not sure whether I want to specialize or not, I think the pass/fail curriculum helps if you want to do residency. I have interacted with some very good and some not so great students from Harvard. The not so great ones where supposedly very good in pre-clinic but for some reason they did not seem to tune very well to the patients' needs. After so much agony (sorry if I sound so dramatic but this is such a hard decision!!!) over making the right decision, I've realized the obvious--we can be good or bad dentists anywhere...we just have to pick one...

 

[arkenstone]

Honestly, you'll be a good clinician either way. And regardless of where you go to school, you'll be filling in the gaps for several years on the job and through CE.

Obviously both schools attract fine students who are more likely to get into specialties. I'm not really convinced that Penn itself offers much substantive for beyond the name and competitive atmosphere with regards to greater success specializing. Harvard's medical curriculum translates into better CBSE scores for OMS and the pass/fail allows you room to prioritize extracurriculars for any specialty.

With regards to externships, either school's name will get you into any one you want.

ADEA costs of attendance/living:
$363,680 - Harvard
$412,393 - Penn

So I think a lot of the practical tangibles favor Harvard. Yet, at the end of the day neither one is going to be a 'mistake.' And a lot of the intangibles important to you seem to favor Penn.

Do some introspection and figure out why your heart is leaning towards Penn. Examine whether you think it will truly translate into more success/happiness. It might.

 

[manifesto]

Harvard but from what I've seen during my interviews and ppl I know well, its stressful

 

[BIGMEECHY]

Sorry guys I have to say this one more time...

Harvard lol

 

[LaughingGas]

Easy. Harvard.

 

[SXCoronado]

.

 

[wazian2018]

Hi everyone, so I'm really blessed to have multiple acceptances at some top-notch schools and I need to make a tough decision. I almost made up my mind on Penn before Harvard called me this afternoon, which makes me torn again..Both are really great schools. The costs of attendance are similar, with Harvard being a little cheaper but the living expense in Boston will probably be higher. I've constructed a list of pros and cons and would greatly appreciate any insight on these two schools.....

Hiiii I'm currently a D1 at Penn and I struggled with the same Penn vs. Harvard choice last year - feel free to PM me if you think it might help you out It really helped me to talk to current dental students when I was deciding, because it really is a hard decision.
Congrats on your acceptances!!

 

[small0424]

So seems like most people vote for Harvard. I kinda expected that but....I know Harvard is 'the one', but does the name matter that much in the real world that it can offset all the other aspects? Maybe someone can elaborate that for me?

I'm leaning toward Penn due to various reasons, mostly because it's such a well-rounded school. It might not be the most clinically oriented program or has the best specialty matching rate, but it doesn't really have a weakness either (maybe except for the preclinical facility which I don't really care as long as it does its job). Correct me if you think I'm biased and I would really appreciate that.

I feel like the general mentality of many people is either go to a cheap clinically strong school or go to school like Harvard where clinical training just doesn't matter. What if I want a combination of both lol.

More opinions are very welcome. But in the end I will make the decision on my own.

 

[sskater]

So seems like most people vote for Harvard. I kinda expected that but....I know Harvard is 'the one', but does the name matter that much in the real world that it can offset all the other aspects? Maybe someone can elaborate that for me?

I'm leaning toward Penn due to various reasons, mostly because it's such a well-rounded school. It might not be the most clinically oriented program or has the best specialty matching rate, but it doesn't really have a weakness either (maybe except for the preclinical facility which I don't really care as long as it does its job). Correct me if you think I'm biased and I would really appreciate that.

I feel like the general mentality of many people is either go to a cheap clinically strong school or go to school like Harvard where clinical training just doesn't matter. What if I want a combination of both lol.

More opinions are very welcome. But in the end I will make the decision on my own.

I have friends at Penn and they are always super stressed out! (although they have excellent grades)

Although I didn't get accepted to any big name schools like you, many of mentors who are dentists mentioned to me it doesn't really matter down the road where you go to school, real-world experience helps you a lot more than in-school training (according to them). Honestly, I hate to be the one beating a dead horse...but I would choose Harvard.

Not only is the prestige simply unfathomable, when you actually run your practice in the future, NO DOUBT that Harvard name will be good to attract patients and such through the word of mouth since Harvard's name itself can make your potential patients feel safe that they have a dentist with a great education. Not to say Penn doesn't but Harvard just has a larger magnitude IMO. My $0.02

 

[deleted659902]

I have friends at Penn and they are always super stressed out! (although they have excellent grades)

Although I didn't get accepted to any big name schools like you, many of mentors who are dentists mentioned to me it doesn't really matter down the road where you go to school, real-world experience helps you a lot more than in-school training (according to them). Honestly, I hate to be the one beating a dead horse...but I would choose Harvard.

Not only is the prestige simply unfathomable, when you actually run your practice in the future, NO DOUBT that Harvard name will be good to attract patients and such through the word of mouth since Harvard's name itself can make your potential patients feel safe that they have a dentist with a great education. Not to say Penn doesn't but Harvard just has a larger magnitude IMO. My $0.02

Haha the bolded part is so over-rated though. I think patients care more about the following:
1) location/parking
2) price/insurance
3) is he nice to me? lol

 

[sskater]

Haha the bolded part is so over-rated though. I think patients care more about the following:
1) location/parking
2) price/insurance
3) is he nice to me? lol

Haha that could be very true! But I know a lot of Asian families who actually like to talk about what school their physicians/dentists went to....but could be just my experience which is a very small sample size!

 

[amitabhaamsterdam]

Let me debunk some myths here as a current student at Penn. Theses are the "pros" mentioned by the OP.

Pros:
1. Good clinical training. I like the DAU program that allows firstyears to assist upperclassmen in the clinic. I know that Penn is notorious for its dungeon-like preclinical lab. But I've attended a one-week summer program and worked there and felt it was not that bad. The 3-D virtual lab is impressive. I heard that the clinical faculty are really top-class and students get a lot of hands-on due to the graduate requirements. I'm not sure if I want to specialize, so keeping the option of general practice open is definitely important to me.

Ask the current students about this "DAU program" and see how they feel about it. Ask 3rd and 4th year students especially. The general consensus is that it was useless. Because of the school's ridiculously high fees, the school fails to attract enough patients. Most patients would rather go to the other dental school in the city. I will be lucky to do three anterior endo cases before I graduate. I have restored only one implant, and it was not even my own case. It's that bad right now! Even though the administrators are aware of this situation, they don't try to help the students out or don't know what to do about it. I think it's the former. In my opinion, the school is run by people who have no business running an organization. All the bureaucratic bulls*hit and poly-TICKS at the school sicken me. Lots of unnecessarily mean instructors, and many people that work there take out their misery on you. Perio is king at this place. If you are a perio-prosthodontics grad, you are a GOD who only knows a little bit about fixed pros. You are a peon otherwise. The only board-certified prosthodontists at the school just quit. "Group leaders" are leaving. Top-class faculty? I beg to differ.

2. dental-geared curriculum. I'm actually not a big fan of taking classes with medical students and would prefer to have the curriculum geared towards dentistry. Plus all the basic sciences are taught by dental faculty so I imagine they understand the mentality of dental students better.

The last 4-5 months of my 2nd year were spent learning pathology. I found this to be beyond absurd as transition from pre-clinic to clinic was very rough. I couldn't remember *hit, and my hands were rusty after the long hiatus. Is it absolutely necessary to learn about blood vessels and nerves in the genital area? Do I need to know in depth about GI pathology as a dental professional? Only spent like a week or 2 doing wax-up, and I don't know jack about dental anatomy. Basic science courses are taught by basic scientists who don't really know dentistry. I felt that my pre-clinic restorative dentistry course was too short and fast-paced. People teaching it will most likely say you are unprepared if you can't do a good class II prep on your first try. Absolute ridiculousness.

3. Externship opportunities. Philly is in a great location and Penn has a lot of connections with surrounding hospital-based dental programs. Also as an international student I find the international externships quite interesting.

I wish I didn't have to do externship as I will lose about a month of chair time.

4. UPenn campus. It's located on the same campus with the undergrad college and all other schools. I think it will be exciting to meet with people from other disciplines instead of stuck in the health professional group.

You most likely won't have enough time to meet and socialize with people outside of dental school. Tinder, Grindr, and GAPSA parties may help a little bit? idk. I rarely see Penn dental students hang out with non-dental people.

As you can see, I have few positive things to say about the school I have invested so much of my resources on. There is one thing the school is pretty good at, and that is residency placement. However, I am not so sure if the school prepares its students well enough for residency. If you are thinking about doing GP, prosthodontics, endo, DO NOT GO TO PENN! Won't be getting bang for the buck. I have met a number of fantastic people at this place, but I have also met too many toxic people that have made this whole experience very negative. I regret coming to the school quite frankly. Told a family friend not to come even though he was offered a partial scholarship. They say every dental school has similar problems. If that holds true, why go to a school that will lead you to an absolute financial, emotional, and physical ruin? This school's glory days are over, and it is on decline for sure. GO TO A CHEAP SCHOOL THAT WILL HELP YOU BECOME A GOOD GP REGARDLESS OF YOUR FUTURE PLANS!

 

[ToothbrushBuddy]

Let me debunk some myths here as a current student at Penn. Theses are the "pros" mentioned by the OP.

Pros:
1. Good clinical training. I like the DAU program that allows firstyears to assist upperclassmen in the clinic. I know that Penn is notorious for its dungeon-like preclinical lab. But I've attended a one-week summer program and worked there and felt it was not that bad. The 3-D virtual lab is impressive. I heard that the clinical faculty are really top-class and students get a lot of hands-on due to the graduate requirements. I'm not sure if I want to specialize, so keeping the option of general practice open is definitely important to me.

Ask the current students about this "DAU program" and see how they feel about it. Ask 3rd and 4th year students especially. The general consensus is that it was useless. Because of the school's ridiculously high fees, the school fails to attract enough patients. Most patients would rather go to the other dental school in the city. I will be lucky to do three anterior endo cases before I graduate. I have restored only one implant, and it was not even my own case. It's that bad right now! Even though the administrators are aware of this situation, they don't try to help the students out or don't know what to do about it. I think it's the former. In my opinion, the school is run by people who have no business running an organization. All the bureaucratic bulls*hit and poly-TICKS at the school sicken me. Lots of unnecessarily mean instructors, and many people that work there take out their misery on you. Perio is king at this place. If you are a perio-prosthodontics grad, you are a GOD who only knows a little bit about fixed pros. You are a peon otherwise. The only board-certified prosthodontists at the school just quit. "Group leaders" are leaving. Top-class faculty? I beg to differ.

2. dental-geared curriculum. I'm actually not a big fan of taking classes with medical students and would prefer to have the curriculum geared towards dentistry. Plus all the basic sciences are taught by dental faculty so I imagine they understand the mentality of dental students better.

The last 4-5 months of my 2nd year were spent learning pathology. I found this to be beyond absurd as transition from pre-clinic to clinic was very rough. I couldn't remember *hit, and my hands were rusty after the long hiatus. Is it absolutely necessary to learn about blood vessels and nerves in the genital area? Do I need to know in depth about GI pathology as a dental professional? Only spent like a week or 2 doing wax-up, and I don't know jack about dental anatomy. Basic science courses are taught by basic scientists who don't really know dentistry. I felt that my pre-clinic restorative dentistry course was too short and fast-paced. People teaching it will most likely say you are unprepared if you can't do a good class II prep on your first try. Absolute ridiculousness.

3. Externship opportunities. Philly is in a great location and Penn has a lot of connections with surrounding hospital-based dental programs. Also as an international student I find the international externships quite interesting.

I wish I didn't have to do externship as I will lose about a month of chair time.

4. UPenn campus. It's located on the same campus with the undergrad college and all other schools. I think it will be exciting to meet with people from other disciplines instead of stuck in the health professional group.

You most likely won't have enough time to meet and socialize with people outside of dental school. Tinder, Grindr, and GAPSA parties may help a little bit? idk. I rarely see Penn dental students hang out with non-dental people.

As you can see, I have few positive things to say about the school I have invested so much of my resources on. There is one thing the school is pretty good at, and that is residency placement. However, I am not so sure if the school prepares its students well enough for residency. If you are thinking about doing GP, prosthodontics, endo, DO NOT GO TO PENN! Won't be getting bang for the buck. I have met a number of fantastic people at this place, but I have also met too many toxic people that have made this whole experience very negative. I regret coming to the school quite frankly. Told a family friend not to come even though he was offered a partial scholarship. They say every dental school has similar problems. If that holds true, why go to a school that will lead you to an absolute financial, emotional, and physical ruin? This school's glory days are over, and it is on decline for sure. GO TO A CHEAP SCHOOL THAT WILL HELP YOU BECOME A GOOD GP REGARDLESS OF YOUR FUTURE PLANS!

As a current Penn student, this post really concerns me, could you please e-mail it to the Dean Kinane and Dr. Hangorsky? So far, to me, the school's faculty and staff seem much more responsive to student's needs and concerns than the state schools that I went to for undergrad. If they know that current students are this concerned, they might be more willing to address the concerns if the problems are presented in a professional manner.

 

[amitabhaamsterdam]

Much to learn you still have young Padawan!

A dose of reality can be painful, but it is what it is... You definitely have not seen or experienced enough as a newbie.

 

[Kittenz]

If you look at the match statistics for residencies... You'll see that those from Penn that went on to residencies did just that. Those from Harvard also did just that. You'll be a dentist no matter where you go, and you can't really get away from that. You'll have the opportunity to specialize at both schools. If you would like to enter general dentistry, it goes without saying that you'll need to enter a residency for that too. I've been told that these residencies are many more times valuable than the clinical training in dental school, and the private practice training afterwards is going to be even more valuable. If money is not an issue, my advice is to go wherever you think you'll be more happy. Make the decision for yourself and not for what other people might think of you. In the real world, I find it hard to believe that the name of the institution you attended dental school at correlates to any direct improvements in practice. I would guess that contact with current students would be a good gauge to verify the strengths/weakness that you suspect of the two schools. However, choosing the school that you will attend for the next 4 years due the the opinions of the many predents that admire prestige will cause them to look up to you for picking Harvard over Penn. Though, that's hardly a deciding factor

 

[deleted518758]

If you look at the match statistics for residencies... You'll see that those from Penn that went on to residencies did just that. Those from Harvard also did just that. You'll be a dentist no matter where you go, and you can't really get away from that. You'll have the opportunity to specialize at both schools. If you would like to enter general dentistry, it goes without saying that you'll need to enter a residency for that too. I've been told that these residencies are many more times valuable than the clinical training in dental school, and the private practice training afterwards is going to be even more valuable. If money is not an issue, my advice is to go wherever you think you'll be more happy. Make the decision for yourself and not for what other people might think of you. In the real world, I find it hard to believe that the name of the institution you attended dental school at correlates to any direct improvements in practice. I would guess that contact with current students would be a good gauge to verify the strengths/weakness that you suspect of the two schools. However, choosing the school that you will attend for the next 4 years due the the opinions of the many predents that admire prestige will cause them to look up to you for picking Harvard over Penn. Though, that's hardly a deciding factor

Is there a place where you can see all the schools' match statistics???

 

[amitabhaamsterdam]

I doubt that.

Penn in 2014 (I think we get about 140 students a year, usually about 30 of them are foreign trained dentists. These are the numbers I got from my school's office of student affairs)

OMFS- 15 (15/16)
Ortho- 13 people (13/15)
Peds- 9
Endo- 1
Pros- 3
Perio- 1

The majority of people do GPR and AEGD and then think about other plans. I believe class of 2013 produced a lot more future specialists, but I don't have the numbers.

 

[Kittenz]

Is there a place where you can see all the schools' match statistics???

At the interviews of Penn and Harvard, I was given sheets with the residency numbers. Not sure if they have them posted online.

 

[Lspear]

Business wise- I'd find an in state school. Otherwise I'd do Harvard

 

[NMC2010]

Off topic, but if that's the OP in his profile pic, looks like Joseph Gordon Levitt. On-topic, do whichever one has a better clinical program.

_____

Edit: After reading above posts, would choose Harvard. I have zero experience/knowledge of the schools either way, so count my opinion as entirely negligible.

 

[DentalDoge]

That IS a picture of Joseph Jordon-Levitt.

It really doesnt matter. But I'd pick Harvard. But mostly because I like the medical curriculum (one of the reasons I picked my state school). Great location, also has alot of opportunities there too. Class is 35 people, Im sure the faculty to student ratio is ridiculous. The name is a big plus too but that's really not a factor for your education.

But hey, since you've interviewed there, youre probably more qualified than most of us in making a decision (facility, faculty-wise). It also helps if you know anyone who goes to school in the area. Always nice to have familiar faces around (another reason why I picked my state school).