PGY1- Only benefits the health system or hospital?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Jibby321

Ready or Not......
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
1,642
Reaction score
398
Seriously, what is the point in doing a residency for a pharmacist? Other than it benefits the hospital or health system. Shouldn't pharmacists after their clinical rotations and a couple of weeks with on the job training be able to complete all tasks and be a competent pharmacist? Why do you need to complete a year residency just to adjust vanco doses, warfarin doses, or clinical teachings? What did you do in school/on rotations to not know how to be proficient at these tasks? Academia pushes sooooooooooooo hard for students to do residencies it's annoying. I feel it's just another way to take advantage of pharmacy students. Pharmacy is much different than medicine and it makes sense for doctors to have to complete residencies and be properly trained. Pharmacist don't do what doctors do although some like to try and play doctor from what I have seen.

Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Cheers.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Seriously, what is the point in doing a residency for a pharmacist? Other than it benefits the hospital or health system. Shouldn't pharmacists after their clinical rotations and a couple of weeks with on the job training be able to complete all tasks and be a competent pharmacist? Why do you need to complete a year residency just to adjust vanco doses, warfarin doses, or clinical teachings? What did you do in school/on rotations to not know how to be proficient at these tasks? Academia pushes sooooooooooooo hard for students to do residencies it's annoying. I feel it's just another way to take advantage of pharmacy students. Pharmacy is much different than medicine and it makes sense for doctors to have to complete residencies and be properly trained. Pharmacist don't do what doctors do although some like to try and play doctor from what I have seen.

Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Cheers.

I personally feel that residency is not to train pharmacists to do regular staffing, but to train leaders. If you're someone doing a residency solely to be competitive for staffing positions, then I'm sure you'll obviously feel you've been taken advantage of as a resident. There are many others who feel that they got something worthwhile out of residency. It obviously varies by program. Some programs may work you more, others less...some you may learn more, others less....which is why it's important to match to the "right" program that's oriented with your values and goals. You work for them, sure, but they also work for you. Don't do a residency if you feel it doesn't suit you. Nothing to be annoyed about.

I don't mind that academia promotes residencies. Students and prospective students always seem enthralled with the idea of clinical pharmacy and just want to do their day-to-day patient care. What they don't realize is that those clinical jobs only exist because of pharmacy leaders. We need more pharmacy leaders...not more pharmacists. Pharmacy as a profession is all over the place...pharmacists can either stand to make a large impact on patient care and outcomes or be an inefficient waste of resources - it just depends on how we are leveraged. Some places make the most of their pharmacists, other places, less so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Caffeine makes a good point about matching into the right program. There are a lot of residencies in non-teaching facilities that really just use you as cheap labor. I've worked with people who graduated from these types of programs, get a staffing job, and seem to be all attitude and no skill. However, one of my favorite trainers had a VA residency and you could tell it gave her a solid foundation.

I agree with you that residency becoming a requirement for staffing is kind of a joke. It's hospitals taking advantage of an unfavorable labor market. Graduates in many parts of the country just have to suck it up if they don't want to work retail. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

I can't wait for this thread in five years when a PGY1 is required to work at CVS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Seriously, what is the point in doing a residency for a pharmacist? Other than it benefits the hospital or health system. Shouldn't pharmacists after their clinical rotations and a couple of weeks with on the job training be able to complete all tasks and be a competent pharmacist? Why do you need to complete a year residency just to adjust vanco doses, warfarin doses, or clinical teachings? What did you do in school/on rotations to not know how to be proficient at these tasks? Academia pushes sooooooooooooo hard for students to do residencies it's annoying. I feel it's just another way to take advantage of pharmacy students. Pharmacy is much different than medicine and it makes sense for doctors to have to complete residencies and be properly trained. Pharmacist don't do what doctors do although some like to try and play doctor from what I have seen.

Thoughts? Opinions? All are welcome. Cheers.

I guess you could argue that it "benefits" the resume of a new pharmacist, trying to enter an increasingly competitive and saturated field?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Back in the old days of CD's, non touch screen cell phones, and Yahoo! being the dominant internet search engine....you could go to college and get a job after, and get trained while getting paid.

That's across almost all professions, from the fashion industry to pharmacy.

Then with a glut of people and not enough jobs, institutions (schools, think tanks, committees, etc...) figured out that adding years to school and unpaid internships, residencies with partial pay, paid internships after graduation, fellowships, etc.... was a great way to boost the bottom line overall.

Why should an institution pay full price for a half functioning individual?

Welcome to the life of a millennial, it's how to play the game now, or lest you be hopelessly left behind...while your crochety uncle wonders how you can't pay for all of your school with a part-time job, and wonders why you're unemployed after.

So to answer your question, PGY-1 doesn't just benefit the health system, it's prerequisite to an inpatient job in impacted regions....you can fight the system all you want, but you'll just be relegated to retail hell (at least in my area) without one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I personally feel that residency is not to train pharmacists to do regular staffing, but to train leaders. If you're someone doing a residency solely to be competitive for staffing positions, then I'm sure you'll obviously feel you've been taken advantage of as a resident. There are many others who feel that they got something worthwhile out of residency. It obviously varies by program. Some programs may work you more, others less...some you may learn more, others less....which is why it's important to match to the "right" program that's oriented with your values and goals. You work for them, sure, but they also work for you. Don't do a residency if you feel it doesn't suit you. Nothing to be annoyed about.

I don't mind that academia promotes residencies. Students and prospective students always seem enthralled with the idea of clinical pharmacy and just want to do their day-to-day patient care. What they don't realize is that those clinical jobs only exist because of pharmacy leaders. We need more pharmacy leaders...not more pharmacists. Pharmacy as a profession is all over the place...pharmacists can either stand to make a large impact on patient care and outcomes or be an inefficient waste of resources - it just depends on how we are leveraged. Some places make the most of their pharmacists, other places, less so.
Love it. Couldn't agree more. This holds VERY true for retail pharmacy which is what I am more familiar with.
 
Caffeine makes a good point about matching into the right program. There are a lot of residencies in non-teaching facilities that really just use you as cheap labor. I've worked with people who graduated from these types of programs, get a staffing job, and seem to be all attitude and no skill. However, one of my favorite trainers had a VA residency and you could tell it gave her a solid foundation.

I agree with you that residency becoming a requirement for staffing is kind of a joke. It's hospitals taking advantage of an unfavorable labor market. Graduates in many parts of the country just have to suck it up if they don't want to work retail. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

I can't wait for this thread in five years when a PGY1 is required to work at CVS.
Doesn't Walgreens offer some type of PGY1 like this?

I thought I heard about it and thought wtf? But they are trying to target it towards more clinical work like immunizations and MTM if I'm not mistaken.
 
I guess you could argue that it "benefits" the resume of a new pharmacist, trying to enter an increasingly competitive and saturated field?
I would agree with this if you said it "benefits" the Pharmacist based on the connections he or she made during it. Not the skills that they acquired during post grad.
 
Back in the old days of CD's, non touch screen cell phones, and Yahoo! being the dominant internet search engine....you could go to college and get a job after, and get trained while getting paid.

That's across almost all professions, from the fashion industry to pharmacy.

Then with a glut of people and not enough jobs, institutions (schools, think tanks, committees, etc...) figured out that adding years to school and unpaid internships, residencies with partial pay, paid internships after graduation, fellowships, etc.... was a great way to boost the bottom line overall.

Why should an institution pay full price for a half functioning individual?

Welcome to the life of a millennial, it's how to play the game now, or lest you be hopelessly left behind...while your crochety uncle wonders how you can't pay for all of your school with a part-time job, and wonders why you're unemployed after.

So to answer your question, PGY-1 doesn't just benefit the health system, it's prerequisite to an inpatient job in impacted regions....you can fight the system all you want, but you'll just be relegated to retail hell (at least in my area) without one.
I still feel that if you make the right connections and know the right people you can get an inpatient position if that's what you desire. (Sounds terrible to me) I know a lot of people on the pharmacy world and residency directors and these are the words out of their mouths.

Unless you want in at the VA. The higher ups I know there say it's impossible and like you say a pre-req just to maybe get lucky and get your foot in the door so after wards you can get a job in the VA system in BFE no where.

I'm glad so many people want a hospital position because I for one do not. People like to chalk up how much retail sucks but honestly it all sucks so you just have to pick your poison.
 
I would agree with this if you said it "benefits" the Pharmacist based on the connections he or she made during it. Not the skills that they acquired during post grad.
Your connections probably won't agree to help you if they find your skills lacking.

EDIT: Fixed my silly double post from my phone.

Sent from my XT1045 using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Your connections probably won't agree to help you if they find your skills lacking.

Your connections won't agree to help you if your skills are lackl

Sent from my XT1045 using SDN mobile
Not sure of your exact point but yes agreed.
 
I've been saying this since like 2006. It's a scheme to push the cost of training a new employee onto labor. It's classic capitalistic semantics. Call what would in any other sector be called an internship a "residency" and people think it's acceptable. All they had to do is dangle the "you'll be JUST LIKE PHYSICIANS and do a residency!" carrot in front of impressionable 20-somethings that have spent the last 4 years of their lives listening to propaganda from their professors about how clinical practice is the only honorable route for a pharmacist. Boom...they save $60-80k a year on first-year employees. And now, here we are, people are eager to give up a down payment on a house.

I'm sure people will tell you it was worth it...they learned so much...and I'm sure they did...but the truth is, we've allowed the standard to tilt towards less money for labor and turned hospital pharmacy into another internship-out-of-college, indentured servitude profession.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Doesn't Walgreens offer some type of PGY1 like this?

I thought I heard about it and thought wtf? But they are trying to target it towards more clinical work like immunizations and MTM if I'm not mistaken.

A friend of mine did q Walgreens community based residency that included several ambulatory care rotations - she's now manager of the HIV specialty Walgreens in a large metro area and has a more clinical/ambcare type role than most managers.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
I've been saying this since like 2006. It's a scheme to push the cost of training a new employee onto labor. It's classic capitalistic semantics. Call what would in any other sector be called an internship a "residency" and people think it's acceptable. All they had to do is dangle the "you'll be JUST LIKE PHYSICIANS and do a residency!" carrot in front of impressionable 20-somethings that have spent the last 4 years of their lives listening to propaganda from their professors about how clinical practice is the only honorable route for a pharmacist. Boom...they save $60-80k a year on first-year employees. And now, here we are, people are eager to give up a down payment on a house.

I'm sure people will tell you it was worth it...they learned so much...and I'm sure they did...but the truth is, we've allowed the standard to tilt towards less money for labor and turned hospital pharmacy into another internship-out-of-college, indentured servitude profession.
So much yes in this post.
 
I've been saying this since like 2006. It's a scheme to push the cost of training a new employee onto labor. It's classic capitalistic semantics. Call what would in any other sector be called an internship a "residency" and people think it's acceptable. All they had to do is dangle the "you'll be JUST LIKE PHYSICIANS and do a residency!" carrot in front of impressionable 20-somethings that have spent the last 4 years of their lives listening to propaganda from their professors about how clinical practice is the only honorable route for a pharmacist. Boom...they save $60-80k a year on first-year employees. And now, here we are, people are eager to give up a down payment on a house.

I'm sure people will tell you it was worth it...they learned so much...and I'm sure they did...but the truth is, we've allowed the standard to tilt towards less money for labor and turned hospital pharmacy into another internship-out-of-college, indentured servitude profession.
word.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I still feel that if you make the right connections and know the right people you can get an inpatient position if that's what you desire. (Sounds terrible to me) I know a lot of people on the pharmacy world and residency directors and these are the words out of their mouths.

Unless you want in at the VA. The higher ups I know there say it's impossible and like you say a pre-req just to maybe get lucky and get your foot in the door so after wards you can get a job in the VA system in BFE no where.

I'm glad so many people want a hospital position because I for one do not. People like to chalk up how much retail sucks but honestly it all sucks so you just have to pick your poison.

Yah I would die in retail, literally have an aneurism and die. I really do appreciate the RPh's that can do it because lord knows I can't. I'm too much of a free range chicken. My "customers" have to play in the sandbox with me, no going over my head for a $25 gift card.

But anyway....it's not an either/or situation with new grads vs new residents. We have TONS of new grads we love/are super competent, but we also have TONS of new resident grads we also love/are super competent and got the first year crap dumped off somewhere else + are fully licensed. They're all on our radar. You can guess who we're going to go with.

But if those residents didn't exist, then the decision becomes new grads we love vs. multi-year experienced person we may or may not know. New grad was always low man on the totem pole, it's just now they're more in direct competition with new residents.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I still feel that if you make the right connections and know the right people you can get an inpatient position if that's what you desire. (Sounds terrible to me) I know a lot of people on the pharmacy world and residency directors and these are the words out of their mouths.

Unless you want in at the VA. The higher ups I know there say it's impossible and like you say a pre-req just to maybe get lucky and get your foot in the door so after wards you can get a job in the VA system in BFE no where.

I'm glad so many people want a hospital position because I for one do not. People like to chalk up how much retail sucks but honestly it all sucks so you just have to pick your poison.

I felt the exact same way coming out of school. Wanted nothing to do with hospital cause I was so burned out by all the "playing doctor" and quoting guidelines. After a year in retail I did a 180, made the move to hospital and couldn't be happier. You never know where you might end up if you keep an open mind.

Great discussion though about the merits of residency. As many have pointed out, institutions would much rather hire someone who is fully trained than someone they have to train. The real prize for institutions is training residents for a year and then hiring them into staffing jobs. Not only do they have incredibly competent pharmacists (who they've already vetted), but their institution specific knowledge is far higher than anyone else competing for the job. Win-win. Sucks if you didn't do a residency, but that's the game now. It seems the political benefits are enormous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I felt the exact same way coming out of school. Wanted nothing to do with hospital cause I was so burned out by all the "playing doctor" and quoting guidelines. After a year in retail I did a 180, made the move to hospital and couldn't be happier. You never know where you might end up if you keep an open mind.

Great discussion though about the merits of residency. As many have pointed out, institutions would much rather hire someone who is fully trained than someone they have to train. The real prize for institutions is training residents for a year and then hiring them into staffing jobs. Not only do they have incredibly competent pharmacists (who they've already vetted), but their institution specific knowledge is far higher than anyone else competing for the job. Win-win. Sucks if you didn't do a residency, but that's the game now. It seems the political benefits are enormous.
I certainly am keeping an open mind while on rotations. Starting my first hospital APPE next week so we will see how that goes.
 
I'm glad so many people want a hospital position because I for one do not. People like to chalk up how much retail sucks but honestly it all sucks so you just have to pick your poison.

At least in hospital you get to do humane things like sit down, eat, and use the restroom.
 
Yah I would die in retail, literally have an aneurism and die. I really do appreciate the RPh's that can do it because lord knows I can't. I'm too much of a free range chicken. My "customers" have to play in the sandbox with me, no going over my head for a $25 gift card.

The 'players' in a hospital may be different, but its still the same game. Your "customers" may not be able to go over your head with a $25 gift card, no instead, your "customers" (ie nurses) will be going over your head with their sheer numbers that far outnumber the pharmacy department.

It's like this, retail has "acute" politics--which can be immensely painful, but they also quickly pass. Hospital has "chronic" politics--they pain is low-level and seems to be quite bearable, but overtime its like the "chinese water torture" and becomes excruciating and never-ending. Both require different coping strategies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The 'players' in a hospital may be different, but its still the same game. Your "customers" may not be able to go over your head with a $25 gift card, no instead, your "customers" (ie nurses) will be going over your head with their sheer numbers that far outnumber the pharmacy department.

It's like this, retail has "acute" politics--which can be immensely painful, but they also quickly pass. Hospital has "chronic" politics--they pain is low-level and seems to be quite bearable, but overtime its like the "chinese water torture" and becomes excruciating and never-ending. Both require different coping strategies.

Maybe I'm just lucky with a strong and non-adversarial relationship with nursing and my department (there are acute spats, randomly). I've built enough relationships on the units (clerks, nurses, CNA's, Respiratory, PT, OT, case managers, etc...) that I don't experience much friction through my day.

But I see your point and agree many places have that slow and grinding adversarial symbiosis going on.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
And I literally just went into the nurses break room right now to toast a bagel, how 'bout that? Hahah


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
And I literally just went into the nurses break room right now to toast a bagel, how 'bout that? Hahah


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app


Mine text me and ask what kind of donut they should save for me because I come in a few hours later than they do.

It doesn't always have to be adversarial.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Mine text me and ask what kind of donut they should save for me because I come in a few hours later than they do.

It doesn't always have to be adversarial.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I get texted the office/room where the unit pot luck is being held. They literally have to move it every time because other departments come and graze. It's like Sarah Winchester and the Winchester Mystery House.

I don't know how I'm not 300lbs yet, to be honest.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
At least in hospital you get to do humane things like sit down, eat, and use the restroom.
The pharmacits I work with do all of the above. I don't work for cvs.
 
Top