Pharmacist Debt Load

[MrPrePharm]

I'd appreciate if some pharmacists would post their debt load after graduating pharmacy school (and/or completing residency) with relevant information (in-state/out-of-state/public/private/3-year/4-year etc). I'm trying to get an idea of what average debt load looks like. Per this article ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930253/ ), it's only about $123k, but that seems unrealistic given the cost of even the cheapest schools in my state.

Don't most pharmacists have to borrow for undergrad, plus pharmacy school, plus cost of living? It seems $200k would be more appropriate to cover all these costs.

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[sunshao]

well my local university(USF) is not too bad ($17,500 (estimated) per year) for tuition and about 18,500 for everything in total. Even UF,a good pharmacy school is 23k a year

 

[BMBiology]

The problem of surveys is that there is an inherent bias in reporting. People who owe a boat load of money are not as likely to report. In addition, it doesn't take family contribution into account.

But it shouldn't matter. You already know the tuition, cost of living and interest rate. You can easily figure out the number yourself.

 

[MrPrePharm]

well my local university is not too bad ($17,500 (estimated) per year) for tuition and about 18,500 for everything in total.

So then that's about $74,000 over 4 years for tuition and fees, not including inflation which has lately been in the order of 8% yearly. Plus cost of living, plus undergrad... seems like that would put it up in the range of $110,000 minimum.

 

[MrPrePharm]

The problem of surveys is that there is an inherent bias in reporting. People who owe a boat load of money are not as likely to report. In addition, it doesn't take family contribution into account.

But it shouldn't matter. You already know the tuition, cost of living and interest rate. You can easily figure out the number yourself.

I can estimate my own debt load rather easily, but I'd like to know others', and, sure there's bias in any self-reporting, but at least it's a general idea.

 

[sunshao]

So then that's about $74,000 over 4 years for tuition and fees, not including inflation which has lately been in the order of 8% yearly. Plus cost of living, plus undergrad... seems like that would put it up in the range of $110,000 minimum.

yup, but that is not considering scholarships(in florida, bright futures scholarship and PATELL grant helped alot for undergrad)

 

[BMBiology]

^ why does it matter? you already said there's going to be a reporting bias. My guess is around 200-250 k (not including family contribution).

 

[BMBiology]

yup, but that is not considering scholarships(in florida, bright futures scholarship and PATELL grant helped alot for undergrad)

most scholarships are around a 2-3 k a year for professional schools. You may get a lot more for undergrad, but not professional.

 

[sunshao]

ye i know, but luckily I didn't have to take too many loans in undergrad thanks to that. So my debt won't be as bad as others

 

[MrPrePharm]

^ why does it matter? you already said there's going to be a reporting bias. My guess is around 200-250 k (not including family contribution).

I was looking for a general idea and hoping the reporting bias would not be huge. And also, I was hoping people with lower debt loads or higher debt loads than average might be able to advise from their experience on how respectively to attain or avoid such scenarios.

 

[El Trombopag]

145K for a 4 year in-state public school pharmD, graduated 2011. I didn't work during school much and took all the summers off, so that includes living expenses, credit card, etc. No grants, scholarships, family help. I digested undergrad debt long ago.

Coworker #1 - about 200K for the same in-state pharmacy school 2010, but he has in-state undergrad included in that - not sure about family help with undergrad or how much is pharmacy vs. undergrad debt.

Coworker #2 - about 350K, not sure what his undergrad situation was, but went to a private pharmacy school, graduated 2011, took a residency, and had a couple kids most of that time.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

Coworker #1: Woman in her 40s still trying to pay off loans and supporting her family. Think she has 80k left to payoff after 12 years of working. She had 250K from undergrad and private pharmacy school. Forced to work a job she hates to make ends meet for her family. Her husband doesn't work.. stay at home father.

Coworker #2: New grad with 300k to pay off. Graduated 2014 from a private school and was thrown into a busy retail store as a pharmacist. Stress and lack of tech help already getting to her... will cry during her lunch breaks. Wishes she never done pharmacy as a career.

Coworker #3: New grad with 200k. Graduated 2013 from a private school. Hates her retail job and constantly looking for another job, but no calls/emails or interviews at all. Regrets becoming a pharmacist.

 

[BMBiology]

^ i sense a common theme in your post!

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

^ i sense a common theme in your post!

You know, I feel so bad for these pharmacists. Worked so hard to become retail slaves for companies that only care about stock prices going up. They have no other option right now due to the oversaturation of the market.

 

[BMBiology]

^ I feel bad for people who started pharmacy school in 2008 when the job market started to change. It was not so obvious and many of them got burned.

For people who are still going into this profession? All I have to say is your decision has consequences.

 

[MrPrePharm]

will cry during her lunch breaks.

No pharmacist in my store even gets a lunch break.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

^

For people who are still going into this profession? All I have to say is your decision has consequences.

I think the smart ones are avoiding pharmacy altogether. Seems like pharmacy schools are lowering their standards and accepting just about anyone to fill the seats. Have you read some of the threads in the licensure section? People are barely passing NAPLEX and some are even getting low scores like 25-50. WTH?! Some are taking the MPJE for the 3rd time?!? Seriously, if can't pass the first time... you don't belong in pharmacy.

As for the pre-pharmacy students, there will be students that get a few Cs and Ds and are still accepted to these new schools!!

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Corporate24]

Graduated pharmacy school in 2010.
undergrad: 9K
4-yr pharm school: 184K
Total: 193K

have 81K left in principal after 4 years, while working hospital and making less than retail. Have not had a raise in 4 years. Have made some purchases for toys/fun

I've had supplemental income though:
- rental property: $1250-1400/month
-stock market/trading: 43% gains last year alone

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

Graduated pharmacy school in 2010.
undergrad: 9K
4-yr pharm school: 184K
Total: 193K

have 81K left in principal after 4 years, while working hospital and making less than retail. Have not had a raise in 4 years. Have made some purchases for toys/fun

I've had supplemental income though:
- rental property: $1250-1400/month
-stock market/trading: 43% gains last year alone

At least the rental income helps offset the loan payments.

 

[Momus]

Me: 0 debt. Positive net worth. Hates working for someone else. Trading your time for money sucks (slave/employee). No one will ever get rich doing this chit. Constantly in the mode of searching to create value, employ people and sell to the mass to get out of being a slave/employee.

 

[BMBiology]

Coworker #1: Woman in her 40s still trying to pay off loans and supporting her family. Think she has 80k left to payoff after 12 years of working. She had 250K from undergrad and private pharmacy school. Forced to work a job she hates to make ends meet for her family. Her husband doesn't work.. stay at home father.

Having that much student loan debt and having a spouse that doesnt work is very risky. Unfortunately, your spouse must be in the workforce so he or she can keep up with his/her skill, just in case you can't work or you got laid off.

People forget the 2008 great recession. I know a bunch of pharmacists who had to scramble and find work after not working for the last 10 years when their spouse got laid off. Everything came down on them. No income, lack of current skill and lack of job opportunity, unpaid debt.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

~225k in debt finishing up my second year of residency. Loans suck but I love what I do.

 

[trailerpark]

~225k in debt finishing up my second year of residency. Loans suck but I love what I do.

You can't afford to be a sdn gold donor.

[URL='https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flh6.googleusercontent.com%2F-5bNLwaSpI_w%2FUjRix0Syb-I%2FAAAAAAAAfY4%2FtKjzuQ7w0_g%2Ffacepalm-cat-e1342180985100.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alldeaf.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D118720&docid=H4pmh57vt7hRWM&tbnid=aPTqc9ofWDYBrM&w=317&h=310&ei=bt6cVMiBEomcyQSZtICoAw&ved=0CAMQxiAwAQ&iact=c']
[/URL]

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

You can't afford to be a sdn gold donor.

 

[type b pharmD]

Just shy of 400k debt here . Not making payments yet but it'll be avg of 1200/month this year (2015) and 900/month next year .

Wife does contracting consulting occasionally but mostly doesn't work.. we will be at around 170k gross this year with her working about 20 hours per month.

Not batting an eye. I'd say this is the good life.

Plan is to retire after a little while and go on $0 payment plan .

****You all know that if you get laid off or quit, you can go on $0/month IBR right? ****

Debt doesn't scare me because what the hell can they do ? Garnish 10% of my wages for a while? Whatever.. I'm living my dream job every day.. I love going into work and get a huge kick of of it... AND I'm saving at least $15,000 per year into the investment fund and savings on top of 401k .

 

[BMBiology]

****You all know that if you get laid off or quit, you can go on $0/month IBR right? ****

Just so other people know...you would have to pay income tax on the amount that is forgiven so expect like 30% federal income tax (state tax too?). Even this disabled guy got a tax bill from the IRS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/y...de-loan-debt-for-a-tax-bill-from-the-irs.html

But of course you have a scheme right? still planning to declare insolvency? But that means the government will go after your retirement money (401 k, ira roth)

 

[type b pharmD]

Just so other people know...you would have to pay income tax on the amount that is forgiven so expect like 30% federal income tax (state tax too?). Even this disabled guy got a bill from the IRS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/y...de-loan-debt-for-a-tax-bill-from-the-irs.html

But of course you have a scheme right? still planning to declare insolvency? But that means the government will go after your retirement money (401 k, ira roth)

It's not "declaring" insolvency... It's being insolvent and using the built in exclusion.

My tax bill will be about 20-40k or at MOST 5% of loan principle...

Not to be rude but that disabled guy could have strongly benefited from a tax accountant. He got HOSED.

 

[BMBiology]

It's not "declaring" insolvency... It's being insolvent and using the built in exclusion.

My tax bill will be about 20-40k or at MOST 5% of loan principle...

Not to be rude but that disabled guy could have strongly benefited from a tax accountant. He got HOSED.

There is no way you can plan for something like this 20 years in advance. There is already a student loan bubble and as more people try to find a way out of it, the government will make it harder and harder. You are going to work your butt off for the next 20 years, just to give it all to the government. That's my bet.

 

[type b pharmD]

There is no way you can plan for something like this 20 years in advance. There is already a student loan bubble and as more people try to find a way out of it, the government will make it harder and harder. You are going to work your butt off for the next 20 years, just to give it all to the government. That's my bet.

My main bet is that upcoming legislation will wipe the debt or at the very least wipe the tax bomb. My emergency plan is to pay 40k tax . If all else fails take the money and run !

So with 3 levels of backup plan in the face of broad support for easing student loan burdens and tons of legislation in the pipeline to ease repayment and or eliminate the tax bomb... I feel pretty darn good about my position.

 

[BMBiology]

My main bet is that upcoming legislation will wipe the debt or at the very least wipe the tax bomb. My emergency plan is to pay 40k tax . If all else fails take the money and run !

So with 3 levels of backup plan in the face of broad support for easing student loan burdens and tons of legislation in the pipeline to ease repayment and or eliminate the tax bomb... I feel pretty darn good about my position.

The Obama administration has already proposed 57.5 k cap on the forgiveness amount and you are betting a republican controlled congress will forgive your debt?

My bet is that the government will make working professionals pay more because they can afford it. They will put a cap on the forgiveness amount. They will take your spouse income into consideration. They must do this in order to save the student loan program.

So really, you don't have a well thought plan? You are just praying the government will forgive your debt. That is not a plan. That is just wishful thinking.

 

[BMBiology]

And you can't "take the money and run" when you have a 401 k.

 

[type b pharmD]

The Obama administration has already proposed 57.5 k cap on the forgiveness amount and you are betting a republican controlled congress will forgive your debt?

My bet is that the government will make working professionals pay more because they can afford it. They will put a cap on the forgiveness amount. They will take your spouse income into consideration. They must do this in order to save the student loan program.

So really, you don't have a well thought plan? You are just praying the government will forgive your debt. That is not a plan. That is just wishful thinking.

1. Debt limit you are talking about is already basically law and has no relevance in this conversation ! It is PSLF ! red herring much ?

2. Already take spouse income into account .. they have since the beginning !

3. So far my plan has me sitting pretty favorably... And there is literally nothing that can go wrong unless they somehow limit freedom of movement and enslave debtors in internment camps ? Sorry to break it to you but student debtors will be the majority voters for the next 4 decades !

 

[Silent Cool]

Me: 0 debt. Positive net worth. Hates working for someone else. Trading your time for money sucks (slave/employee). No one will ever get rich doing this chit. Constantly in the mode of searching to create value, employ people and sell to the mass to get out of being a slave/employee.

@Momus ,
I like your style.

 

[SELDANE]

Granted, the "financial advisors" on college campuses are not there with your best interest in mind. But for god's sake, by the time you hit pharmacy school you better have some common sense. If I had spent $200k on a pharmacy degree and was miserable at my job I wouldn't be crying during my lunch break, rather I'd be kicking my own ass.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

$270K in debt upon graduation. Two years of $0 payments (est. $4K in payments next year). Working for a non-profit for PSLF. Total est. 10 year payments will be $65K. Will be grandfathered into PSLF whenever they decided to make changes to the program (per Dept. of Ed when Obama proposed the $57.5K cap.)

Enjoying my work so much I have 3 pharmacy jobs (1 full-time plus 2 floating). About 60 hours a week max but I get to spend time with family. To be fair, my MBA and past business experience makes me pretty valuable to hospitals but no way was I going to take a retail grind anyway. But I like floating for quiet grocery chain pharmacies for the direct patient interaction, I almost always get at least one big thank you from a customer every shift.

It sure beats my old job mindlessly working 80+ hours for less pay for a Fortune 500 company.

 

[lapharmacienne]

My debt was less than $50k, graduated in 2011. I went to a state school as a pharmacy undergrad straight from high school, it took me six years (2 years of prerequisites and 4 years of pharmacy) to get my degree. With federal grant, scholarships, and 4 years of undergrad designation, I was able to keep my debt to a minimum. The only reasons why I had to take loans for the last 2 years were because tuition trippled and I was no longer qualified for the federal grant.

I was also an in-state student but lived 500 miles away from home and I never worked during school.

Sent from my VERIZON LG G2

 

[W19]

Do you guys/gals think I should get out ASAP? MS1 and projected debt ~260k... I cry every time I think about that blockbuster amount... It would have been 200k had I gone to pharm school...

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

What is all this bull **** about loan forgiveness?

I'll be so pissed if I worked my ass off to pay off my loans while others taking out 300k are forgiven?! Forgiven for what? For being stupid?

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

Do you guys/gals think I should get out ASAP? MS1 and projected debt ~260k... I cry every time I think about that blockbuster amount... It would have been 200k had I gone to pharm school...

No, you're good! Don't worry about.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

What is all this bull **** about loan forgiveness?

I'll be so pissed if I worked my ass off to pay off my loans while others taking out 300k are forgiven?! Forgiven for what? For being stupid?

Why are you pissed? This program has been around since 2007 so it may have been available to you too. And it has been augmented by subsequent bipartisan legislation ever since. There are also plenty of other loan forgiveness programs around too (USPHSCC), this just happens to be the best.

Frankly, we are just being financially smart. You made a choice and so did I. I focused on public service (and therefore make less than retail) thanks to this program which is the purpose of PSLF.

 

[BMBiology]

I think a reasonable person would be fine with having someone's debt forgiven if someone worked for the military or worked on an Indian reservation. But for working for the VA? For Kaiser? For public hospitals that have a strong union? These places never had a problem with recruiting pharmacists because of the high salary and generous benefits. So give me a break.

Another problem with loan forgiveness is that it drives up tuition for everybody else. If you know you are going to pay X amount over 10 years regardless of how much you had borrowed, why would the price of tuition matter? Why not max out your student loan?

That is exactly what happened. Cost is going thru the roof. The Obama admin realized this. That is why it had proposed to put a cap on the forgiveness amount.

Just wait until the taxpayers get their bill. Changes are coming.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlindsay/2014/12/13/forgive-us-our-student-loan-debts/

 

[Monsterdaddy]

I think a reasonable person would be fine with having someone's debt forgiven if someone worked for the military or worked on an Indian reservation. But for working for the VA? For Kaiser? For public hospitals that have a strong union? These places never had a problem with recruiting pharmacists because of the high salary and generous benefits. So give me a break.

First of all, forgiveness is for anyone -- not just pharmacists. Second of all, you cannot tell if Kaiser, Mayo, et al aren't receiving a benefit from being able to offer lower salaries. HR is certainly catching on in using this tactic (from what I have seen) so I know at least a few hospitals are trying to save budget this way.

Another problem with loan forgiveness is that it drives up tuition for everybody else. If you know you are going to pay X amount over 10 years regardless of how much you had borrowed, why would the price of tuition matter? Why not max out your student loan?

That is exactly what happened. Cost is going thru the roof. The Obama admin realized this. That is why it had proposed to put a cap on the forgiveness amount.

I don't disagree with this at all. But forgiveness doesn't necessarily limit tuition increases, the ability to take out the maximum is the problem. Cap loans for tuition and then colleges need to start looking at costs.

I've already proposed that loans for living expenses should NOT be forgiven. The argument is you needed to eat, have a roof over your house, pay for gas, etc. anyways so why forgive that.

Just wait until the taxpayers get their bill. Changes are coming.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomlindsay/2014/12/13/forgive-us-our-student-loan-debts/

He makes one shaky argument. Is forgiven debt really a burden on taxpayers? It ignores the massive profits the loans make on interest (more than enough to cover borrowing costs by a ton). It would better to look at forgiveness in the entirety of the loan program because it's quite possible with future changes that the loan program could be self-sufficient, i.e. covering the cost of forgiveness/defaults with interest on good loans. It's basically how banks view their loan portfolio and the writer of the article really should know better.

 

[BMBiology]

Yeah I am sure kaiser pharmacists are starving while making $70 an hour.

Forgiveness program is another reason why interest rate needs to be high. It needs to cover the cost of this program.

Don't think the government is making a killing from student loan. It is based on the false assumption that everyone would repay their loan in full plus interest. That is not happening. Just remember Fannie and Feddie also made a killing before people couldn't pay their mortgage.

 

[Momus]

Yeah I am sure kaiser pharmacists are starving while making $78 an hour minimum.

Fixed.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/student-loan-profits_n_5149653.html

$127 billion profit over 10 years (which blows your argument away because " The figure also accounts for loan defaults and borrowers’ use of flexible repayment plans that tie monthly payments to their incomes.") No accounting for forgiveness in the CBO report though, but still that is plenty of room for forgiveness.

And really, HTF does how much Kaiser RPh's matter at all??? (And how many freaking RPhs do you think actually work there???) It seems you are hung up on this. An economist would say if they would have been making $75/hr without the PSLF program then PSLF is providing a net benefit to Kaiser, which fulfills the purpose of the program.

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

All I know is that if someone else's loan payments are pushed on me as a tax payer... I will cut a b*tch.

Hell, we pretty much support everyone with our 40-50k tax contribution. While others with private businesses, are masters at tax evasion by pocketing all cash transactions.

 

[BMBiology]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/student-loan-profits_n_5149653.html

$127 billion profit over 10 years (which blows your argument away because " The figure also accounts for loan defaults and borrowers’ use of flexible repayment plans that tie monthly payments to their incomes.") No accounting for forgiveness in the CBO report though, but still that is plenty of room for forgiveness.

And really, HTF does how much Kaiser RPh's matter at all??? (And how many freaking RPhs do you think actually work there???) It seems you are hung up on this. An economist would say if they would have been making $75/hr without the PSLF program then PSLF is providing a net benefit to Kaiser, which fulfills the purpose of the program.

An article from the HP? Give me a break.

How about the pharmacists that work at UCSF? The VA? Their salary is posted online and trust me, they are not struggling.

You seem to forget that a lot of hospitals are union. The fact that more pharmacists want to work there because of the loan forgiveness means very little.

 

[Monsterdaddy]

An article from the HP? Give me a break.

Based on a CBO report. Get your head on straight.

How about the pharmacists that work at UCSF? The VA? Their salary is posted online and trust me, they are not struggling.

You seem to forget that a lot of hospitals are union. The fact that more pharmacists want to work there because of the loan forgiveness means very little.

SO WHAT??? REALLY WTF are you so freaking butt hurt over the better pharmacists earning better money AND getting their loans forgiven??? Oh that's right, your head is so deep into retail you just want everyone to earn the same money.

 

[W19]

All I know is that if someone else's loan payments are pushed on me as a tax payer... I will cut a b*tch.

Hell, we pretty much support everyone with our 40-50k tax contribution. While others with private businesses, are masters at tax evasion by pocketing all cash transactions.

Isn't what our tax system is about?

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

SO WHAT??? REALLY WTF are you so freaking butt hurt over the better pharmacists earning better money AND getting their loans forgiven??? Oh that's right, your head is so deep into retail you just want everyone to earn the same money.

Seems like you're the one with the issues in this case...