Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

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PumpkinSmasher said:
Do you already have the accounting, finance and other prereqs out of the way?
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Now if I was actually starting pharmacy school in the fall, I would get an MBA. We accounting majors have it made.
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PharmDstudent said:
So here are my goals:

1a) get a "clinical" job -with training included- to see if I'll enjoy "clinical" pharmacy
2a) if I like my "clinical" job, then I'll try to climb the management latter while working on an advanced degree
3a) if I still like my job with added responsibilities, I'll try to move higher up the latter after completing my advanced degree
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I thought you were "anti" clinical pharmacy these days? why the change of heart?
 
njac said:
I thought you were "anti" clinical pharmacy these days? why the change of heart?
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I found a job or two in an area of shortage that will provide training. If they're willing to provide it, then I'll try it out, i.e. if I can get around the academic and residency bull----, then I would like to try it out.

My biggest beef with "clinical" pharmacy is all of the nonsense that goes along with it. Pharmacy school is bad enough; why would I want to kick myself in the --- again?

Chain pharmacy has a lot of nonsense, too.
 
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WVUPharm2007 said:
The problem with that is that I'd have to move there. :(
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Nah. If you were willing and able to fly in 5 times a semester, then you could do it.

It's not as cheap as an online MBA, though.
 
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or even better yet, how about a PhD in statistics? There is someone from Ohio State who was an MD, who got the education paid for by military, did residency at Walter Reed, and then completed a PhD in statistics. This particular PhD is very intense on coursework, and some schools have very difficult qualifying exams (and often 2). But if you have both, I am sure you will be a great asset!!

PK is a lot about mathematical modeling, so perhaps a PhD in pharmaceutics or a PhD in applied math could work as well. I know besides stat jobs in pharm industry there are many people doing PK modeling. Some have PhDs in pharmaceutics, others are PharmD's with fellowship training (via Rutgers), Ph's in applied math, and some PhDs in statistics.
 
Argentium said:
but maybe obama can save us??? :smuggrin:
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Yeah, we're all going to have "green" jobs pretty soon...you know...all that money towards infrastructure...like wind power....


...oh wait...we're spending it all on raw materials for roads (which contaminate our air) <http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=7b4574346c56062623b1fad9f84d793c>

for passenger vehicles (which pollute our air more)




I guess all those illegals working construction are going to revive the economy. Maybe the economy is already back on track because the unemployed are all ACTUAL US citizens...and the unemployment numbers don't reflect the huge increases in employment for illegals that are slinging mud on the bridge down the street from my house.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2009-03-08-immigrant-jobs_N.htm

roadwork08x-large.jpg




It's gonna be awesome...then we can pay our taxes so their kids who were born in the US can get free healthcare so we can fill their scripts. Obama is a genius! He's going to single-handidly rescue our profession!


Time to pick up Rosetta Stone:idea: Habla espanol?
 
Wow. That's so interesting. Your pointless blathering about politics is unbelievable and riveting. No, it really is. We all really do care. Really.
 
PharmDstudent said:
So here are my goals:

1a) get a "clinical" job -with training included- to see if I'll enjoy "clinical" pharmacy
2a) if I like my "clinical" job, then I'll try to climb the management ladder while working on an advanced degree
3a) if I still like my job with added responsibilities, I'll try to move higher up the ladder after completing my advanced degree

but if I don't like my "clinical" job:
2b) work 7on/7off at a hospital plus work during the week off at a different institution or retail for added income
3b) work until I can save up enough money to quit working during my week off
4b) work 7on/7off until I have enough saved to retire

and if I don't like my 7on/7off job:
3c) invest my savings into building a classy indy pharmacy in an under-served retirement community
4c) work at my indy until I can't compete anymore or I can retire


What will it take to get there? I'll have to move. Plain and simple.
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According to most....we are all clinical right?
 
cdpiano27 said:
or even better yet, how about a PhD in statistics? There is someone from Ohio State who was an MD, who got the education paid for by military, did residency at Walter Reed, and then completed a PhD in statistics. This particular PhD is very intense on coursework, and some schools have very difficult qualifying exams (and often 2). But if you have both, I am sure you will be a great asset!!

PK is a lot about mathematical modeling, so perhaps a PhD in pharmaceutics or a PhD in applied math could work as well. I know besides stat jobs in pharm industry there are many people doing PK modeling. Some have PhDs in pharmaceutics, others are PharmD's with fellowship training (via Rutgers), Ph's in applied math, and some PhDs in statistics.
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I think that would aweful, statistics only. One that I am looking at is an MPH with focus in epidemiology. Very interesting and goes well with a pharmacy degree.
 
bigpharmD said:
According to most....we are all clinical right?
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Right. The quotes come in, because that's just what people call it- "clinical" pharmacy.

tussionex was big on saying, "We're all clinical!", whenever she was more active on SDN. So... I use quotes instead of discriminating, per say.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Wow. That's so interesting. Your pointless blathering about politics is unbelievable and riveting. No, it really is. We all really do care. Really.
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I'm here to help...pharmacists are well known for their political prowess and influence on capitol hill...I mean...****...APhA has land on the national mall!!!

AMA??? sheeeeeeeet! :laugh:

Even NP's have a better political machine than RPh's...but without the pricey real estate.




Obama won't fix everything...and depending on what his advisors tell him about RPh's capabilities...we may be screwed. The guy wanted to cut the governments VA liability by making vets go to private insurers...paying higher co-pays...and likely being excluded from coverage based on "pre-existing" conditions like TBI and PTSD:thumbdown: Who would make a vet take on the burden of his own healthcare costs when those costs were incurred as part of his sacrifice to our nation???

Or would you rather have that money allocated towards Medicaid for the children of illegal immigrants? I'm not an economics major...but something tells me the US ain't breakin even on that deal.

You think he is gonna give a **** about some upper-middle class "professionals" who count objects and match sizes and colors half the day??? That's the kind of **** my 1yr old god-daughter does. Of course some of us can do more, and I hope whoever advises him lets him know about the positive impacts we can make on healthcare, but I don't see things changing anytime soon in retail...except for a squeeze on labor to maximize profits.
 
Too many threads about this topic...the volume of concern is high enough to make some news or publication.. but surprisingly, media or other professional www do not talk about it...:eek: when will these concern-bubbles burst and seep out from studentdoctor.net??? When??
 
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RNtoPharmD said:
Too many threads about this topic...the volume of concern is high enough to make some news or publication.. but surprisingly, media or other professional www do not talk about it...:eek: when will these concern-bubbles burst and seep out from studentdoctor.net??? When??
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No one in the media or our society is worried about 6 figure earning spoiled pharmacists who take pills from a larger bottle then count and pour into a smaller bottle and lick a label on to the the vial.

It's not like there have been a massive lay off of 30,000 pharmacists...


Yet.
 
bigpharmD said:
This is completely untrue. You have no idea of real practice. I know several admin residents who have went on to DOP at smaller hospital or assistant DOP at larger hospitals. Come with some facts when you do come back to the table.
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You have to consider the subtelties in his sentence...he said generally...and I'm sure you would agree...generally, residents do not become dop immediately...I would even say overwhelmingly.


An outlier does not a fact make:smuggrin:
 
FORTLIVINGROOM said:
You have to consider the subtelties in his sentence...he said generally...and I'm sure you would agree...generally, residents do not become dop immediately...I would even say overwhelmingly.


An outlier does not a fact make:smuggrin:
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There is nothing wrong with what BigPharmD said. His statement is spot on. No one becomes DOP immediately but Admin residency trained pharmacists will more often than not become a DOP.
 
FORTLIVINGROOM said:
You have to consider the subtelties in his sentence...he said generally...and I'm sure you would agree...generally, residents do not become dop immediately...I would even say overwhelmingly.


An outlier does not a fact make:smuggrin:
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generally "residents" do not. But admin residents are a dif story. Many programs are now linked to masters programs...mha, mba...which often makes them more than qualified to take on the role especially at smaller hospitals
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
No one in the media or our society is worried about 6 figure earning spoiled pharmacists who take pills from a larger bottle then count and pour into a smaller bottle and lick a label on to the the vial.

It's not like there have been a massive lay off of 30,000 pharmacists...


Yet.
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Ironically, the spoiled pharmacists who "take pills from a larger bottle then count and pour into a smaller bottle and lick a label on to the vial" are required to study for 8+ years including the BS requirement before they can practice their "couting skill". More ironically, a high school grad can do the same job you mention without even a college degree. Thus, there must be something "fishy" about this "pills counting and label licking" function that separates a doctorate degree holder ie Pharmacist and a high school diploma kid.
 
matt48 said:
Ironically, the spoiled pharmacists who "take pills from a larger bottle then count and pour into a smaller bottle and lick a label on to the vial" are required to study for 8+ years including the BS requirement before they can practice their "couting skill". More ironically, a high school grad can do the same job you mention without even a college degree. Thus, there must be something "fishy" about this "pills counting and label licking" function that separates a doctorate degree holder ie Pharmacist and a high school diploma kid.
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yeah... abolish pharmacy practice!!
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
There is nothing wrong with what BigPharmD said. His statement is spot on. No one becomes DOP immediately but Admin residency trained pharmacists will more often than not become a DOP.
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Is the training you get with corporate firms as lame as a residency? Will they make you go to the ASHP conference and present a poster about some subject nobody cares about? If so, to hell with that, I'll just do 7-on-7-off night shift...
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Is the training you get with corporate firms as lame as a residency? Will they make you go to the ASHP conference and present a poster about some subject nobody cares about? If so, to hell with that, I'll just do 7-on-7-off night shift...
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There are DOP in training programs. Those are eleventy billion times better than any ASHP accredited or non accredited admin residencies. Here is why. DIT program is usually run by management companies with no academic bias but rather filled with practical application and day to day commerical knowledge of how to run a pharmacy. DIT program used to thrive 10 to 20 years ago...yet it's a dying program because not many hospitals or managment firms can actually afford to pay a full pharmacist salary to train someone to be a director only to have them run off to other places. Our last DIT ran off.....bastard.

One of the best DOPs I've worked with went into Cardinal's DIT program straight out of school...then became a director immediately after the program. He rocks. He was much better DOP than I was.
 
I had a feeling that was the case. When I think academia...I think extravagant, pretentious waste of resources and time. Like an extra year of rotations. When I think corporation...I think efficient, waste-free, Fortune-500 backed education.

The bitch of it is that I can't find any info online...oh well...
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
I had a feeling that was the case. When I think academia...I think extravagant, pretentious waste of resources and time. Like an extra year of rotations. When I think corporation...I think efficient, waste-free, Fortune-500 backed education.

The bitch of it is that I can't find any info online...oh well...
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now you are knocking the people that gave you a 90000+ paying job...
 
nikkai said:
I thought you left the table.

Oh, you're on the couch now.

Don't drink my OJ.
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I don't own a couch, and I prefer V8 fusion, veggie juice, or tomato juice over OJ. :p
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
I had a feeling that was the case. When I think academia...I think extravagant, pretentious waste of resources and time. Like an extra year of rotations. When I think corporation...I think efficient, waste-free, Fortune-500 backed education.

The bitch of it is that I can't find any info online...oh well...
Click to expand...


I doubt you'll find it. I'll train your ass one day. I can learn you all the crap you need to know but I can't teach you how to interact with others. That will depend on you...and personal skill is probably the most important component in becoming a DOP.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
There are DOP in training programs. Those are eleventy billion times better than any ASHP accredited or non accredited admin residencies. Here is why. DIT program is usually run by management companies with no academic bias but rather filled with practical application and day to day commerical knowledge of how to run a pharmacy. DIT program used to thrive 10 to 20 years ago...yet it's a dying program because not many hospitals or managment firms can actually afford to pay a full pharmacist salary to train someone to be a director only to have them run off to other places. Our last DIT ran off.....bastard.

One of the best DOPs I've worked with went into Cardinal's DIT program straight out of school...then became a director immediately after the program. He rocks. He was much better DOP than I was.
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So how does one get into one of these training programs?
 
MountainPharmD said:
So how does one get into one of these training programs?
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Having a residency helps... :smuggrin: ehh..just kidding.

Man..these programs are almost non-existent now. Here's the deal..your typical hospitals have DOP who got the job thru default when the previous DOP quit or died. So these DOPs are your someone who got along with people (especially with nursing and admin - golf helps) at the hospital. The problem is, no one really teaches you how to run a hospital pharmacy. Even those pharmacy admin PGY-2 admin residencies with MS degree fail miserably in teaching pharmacy admin because there's too much academia influence.

So where do you go?

Let me give you a brief history on pharmacy management in the US. In 60's, some brilliant pharmacists decided they had a system on how to operate hospital pharmacies. They started outsourcing pharmacy management companies. The industry leader emerged.. Owen Pharmacy Management. This company got eventually bought up by Cardinal not because Cardinal wanted the management piece, because Owen developed a state of the art automatic med dispenser which would've taken a huge chunk of Pyxis business away.

Since Cardinal bought Owen, it completely lost the way Owen used to do business...and they also lost many key individuals to other companies..so if you see a small pharmacy management companies, more than likely they were once with Owen.

Pharmacy Management was defined and perfected by Owen. Then there's academia.. in which Owen would have been their worst nightmare.

I was lucky. I was trained by 3 different previous Owen guys..one after another. Wherever I went, I reported to previous Owen guys.. I was really lucky. Really..

What does it mean to you?

Get a job with a hospital pharmacy run by a pharmacy management company. Then make it clear to the DOP and the corporate guys that pharmacy management is what you want to do. They won't ask you for GPA or residency or MBA. But tell them you're an ex Military and you want to learn and work.

Then work your ass off and get noticed.

Take the first corporate job that opens up.

I took my first pharmacy management DOP job and got shipped to a semi rural medium size hospital and worked every other weekend filling in as staff because I was so short staffed. For a 200 bed hospital, I had 1 fulltimer and 2 part timers I couldn't rely on. I paid my dues.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
Having a residency helps... :smuggrin: ehh..just kidding.

Man..these programs are almost non-existent now. Here's the deal..your typical hospitals have DOP who got the job thru default when the previous DOP quit or died. So these DOPs are your someone who got along with people (especially with nursing and admin - golf helps) at the hospital. The problem is, no one really teaches you how to run a hospital pharmacy. Even those pharmacy admin PGY-2 admin residencies with MS degree fail miserably in teaching pharmacy admin because there's too much academia influence.

So where do you go?

Let me give you a brief history on pharmacy management in the US. In 60's, some brilliant pharmacists decided they had a system on how to operate hospital pharmacies. They started outsourcing pharmacy management companies. The industry leader emerged.. Owen Pharmacy Management. This company got eventually bought up by Cardinal not because Cardinal wanted the management piece, because Owen developed a state of the art automatic med dispenser which would've taken a huge chunk of Pyxis business away.

Since Cardinal bought Owen, it completely lost the way Owen used to do business...and they also lost many key individuals to other companies..so if you see a small pharmacy management companies, more than likely they were once with Owen.

Pharmacy Management was defined and perfected by Owen. Then there's academia.. in which Owen would have been their worst nightmare.

I was lucky. I was trained by 3 different previous Owen guys..one after another. Wherever I went, I reported to previous Owen guys.. I was really lucky. Really..

What does it mean to you?

Get a job with a hospital pharmacy run by a pharmacy management company. Then make it clear to the DOP and the corporate guys that pharmacy management is what you want to do. They won't ask you for GPA or residency or MBA. But tell them you're an ex Military and you want to learn and work.

Then work your ass off and get noticed.

Take the first corporate job that opens up.

I took my first pharmacy management DOP job and got shipped to a semi rural medium size hospital and worked every other weekend filling in as staff because I was so short staffed. For a 200 bed hospital, I had 1 fulltimer and 2 part timers I couldn't rely on. I paid my dues.
Click to expand...

With or without family at the time? (first serious post in a while)
 
nikkai said:
With or without family at the time? (first serious post in a while)
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With family. But I also rode the real-estate bubble... whenever I moved, they paid for everything and selling and buying houses were easy and profitatble. Little more difficult to do today.
 
i interviewed with card a few months ago, i was told it wasnt going on at that time


maybe it changed


however, from my research, there are some training programs that some of these management companies offer, its like 40% staff and 60% training work, but you have to relocate after training is done and work there for a certain time period... which makes sense, if they train you, they should get something back in return ....the thing is you have to call and talk to these companies and see what they have to offer, online info is hard to find with some of em...

the adv of a admin residency is you do your 2 years, and then you are done and free to look for a job anywhere
 
prevacid said:
i interviewed with card a few months ago, i was told it wasnt going on at that time


maybe it changed


however, from my research, there are some training programs that some of these management companies offer, its like 40% staff and 60% training work, but you have to relocate after training is done and work there for a certain time period...which makes sense, if they train you, they should get something back in return

the adv of a admin residency is you do your 2 years, and then you are done and free to look for a job anywhere
Click to expand...

That looks correct from what I read. I think they are based out of Houston. It specifically said you will have to relocate once training is done. Below is a link to a PDF file listing job openings.

http://nps.tst1.cardinal.com/us/en/providers/products/pps/Manager In Training Flyer-v3.pdf
 
MountainPharmD said:
That looks correct from what I read. I think they are based out of Houston. It specifically said you will have to relocate once training is done. Below is a link to a PDF file listing job openings.

http://nps.tst1.cardinal.com/us/en/providers/products/pps/Manager In Training Flyer-v3.pdf
Click to expand...

The "request more info" and "application" button doesn't work. hmmmm...

Other wise very interesting. How much does it pay? If it requires you to work for them for x number of years, then I think they should pay full RPh salary during training.
 
xiphoid2010 said:
The "request more info" and "application" button doesn't work. hmmmm...

Other wise very interesting. How much does it pay? If it requires you to work for them for x number of years, then I think they should pay full RPh salary during training.
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It pays a full pharmacist salary.
 
btw, Cardinal's pharmacy management sector is up for sale.. so...
 
I know someone doing one of those management residencies with Complete Rx... I wonder if she has to wear beads to work.
 
StaviZFingerZ said:
With family. But I also rode the real-estate bubble... whenever I moved, they paid for everything and selling and buying houses were easy and profitatble. Little more difficult to do today.
Click to expand...

Well, it's all about maximizing earning potential per square footage - here in the midwest for example, we' home to the most meth-labs in America. They think outside of real estate appraisal value and utilize other methods to increase the revenue per square foot of their home.

Or something.

But yeah, I hear ya - man, it will be difficult to gain a variety of experience in the economy nowadays.
 
My aunt worked for Owen as a pharm tech back in the day. This thread is giving me deja vu... She talked with me about management and Owen and stuff whenever I told her about pharmacy management. :)
 
http://www.pharmacistactivist.com/2008/august_2008.shtml

Article written by a faculty member of the Philadelphia College of Pharmacy

"There has been extensive discussion in recent years regarding the shortage of pharmacists that exists in many parts of the country. Some have suggested that the shortage of pharmacists may continue well into the twenty-first century, and this observation is supported, in part, by the increase in the percentage of the population that are in the elderly age range, as well as the use of a larger number of medications by these individuals and the accompanying greater need for services provided by pharmacists. However, an assumption of some of the projections of a long-term shortage of pharmacists is that pharmacists will be devoting a large amount of their time to the provision of medication therapy management (MTM) and other comprehensive pharmaceutical services that we advocate.

There has not been a previous time when the need for the expertise and services that pharmacists are able to provide has been as great as it is now, and this need will continue to grow for the foreseeable future. We are encouraged by a number of progressive practice initiatives (e.g., MTM) of individual pharmacists and groups of pharmacists that are valued and respected, and for which compensation is provided. However, the pace at which these initiatives are being developed and implemented is far too slow, and the number of pharmacists whose employment situation positions them to pursue expanded practice responsibilities is far too low. With all due respect and appreciation to those pharmacists whose accomplishments have provided excellent practice models, we have been largely ineffective as a profession in providing and documenting the value and need for comprehensive pharmaceutical services to the point that others are willing to pay for them.

During this same period of time we have observed changes such as 1) the increased utilization of technology that has made prescription dispensing systems more efficient, 2) an increase in the number, education, and credentials of pharmacy technicians, and 3) the development of many new schools of pharmacy and an accompanying large increase in the number of pharmacy graduates. These factors will have an important influence on the need for and supply of pharmacists.

Although acute shortages of pharmacists continue to exist in some areas, several indicators suggest that the overall shortage is easing. The number and type of factors that most influence the supply of and demand for pharmacists make it very difficult to make predictions with any degree of certainty, and most are wise enough not to make such predictions. However, a surplus of pharmacists may occur sooner than many would have anticipated. In the absence of studies, data, or statistical projections, my expectation is that there will be a significant surplus of pharmacists in 2015, UNLESS major changes occur in the practice of pharmacy very soon. My "crystal ball" is no better than anyone else's and I actually hope that my prediction is wrong. But let's consider some of the consequences of a surplus and actions that pharmacy needs to take to best meet the needs of patients and advance our profession.

Consequences of a Surplus

I wish to be clear that my comments are not provided for the purpose of maintaining a shortage of pharmacists or avoiding a surplus. Rather, they are offered to demonstrate the important ways these issues are intertwined in influencing the provision of pharmaceutical services to patients and the future roles of pharmacists. The consequences of a surplus of pharmacists by 2015 include, but are not limited to, the following:


  1. Failure to attain recognition of the expertise and services of pharmacists. The provision of comprehensive pharmaceutical services to the tens of millions of patients who need them will require the participation of many more pharmacists than we will be able to supply for at least several decades. If a surplus of pharmacists occurs as early as 2015, it will mean that our profession is failing in its efforts to convince those paying for health care, as well as other health professionals, that the expertise and services we are capable of providing are valuable, needed, and worth paying for. Many pharmacists will continue to be employed in traditional practice responsibilities, and these positions, in which a shortage currently exists, will soon be occupied by the significantly larger number of pharmacists who are graduating from colleges of pharmacy.
  2. Unemployment and lower salaries. The clear implications of a surplus for individual pharmacists are greater difficulty in obtaining a position, unemployment, and lower salaries. There are important questions as to which pharmacists are most likely to be hired for practice responsibilities if a surplus of pharmacists exists. Would it be those pharmacists who are the most highly motivated in providing services to patients and extending the professional role of pharmacists, or would it be those pharmacists who are content with the status quo and would not "make waves" when working for an employer that is content with having its pharmacists carry out just the traditional dispensing responsibilities?
  3. Closing of some colleges of pharmacy. In the last 20 years, approximately 40 new colleges of pharmacy have opened or are well along in the planning process. Prior to the late 1980s, the number of colleges of pharmacy in the United States had remained constant at 72 over a period of many years. The number is now 112 and is continuing to increase. The vast majority, if not all, of the new schools (and additional campuses for some older schools) have identified the shortage of pharmacists as the/a primary reason for which the new school is needed/justified.

    If a significant surplus of pharmacists occurs, not as many young people will consider pharmacy as a career opportunity, the number of applications will fall, enrollment shortfalls will be experienced, admission standards will be lowered, and some schools of pharmacy will close. These challenges that are associated with a surplus of pharmacists will be experienced not just by the new schools (some of which have innovative and dynamic programs that make them very competitive), but also by the older schools (some of which have not implemented progressive changes).

Actions Needed

The highest priority must be given to having a much larger number of pharmacists providing comprehensive services to patients and being paid for it. Past experiences and frustrations have taught us how difficult it is to do this. However, we must persist and we must be far more effective in attaining this goal than we have been in the past. Pharmacists are strategically positioned and have the expertise to optimize drug therapy outcomes and reduce the occurrence of drug-related problems. The frequency with which the media reports the occurrence of medication errors and other drug-related problems (many of which result in litigation) reflects an increasing outrage on the part of the public with respect to these situations. If the profession of pharmacy is unwilling and/or unable to effectively address these problems, someone else (e.g., physician assistants, nurse practitioners) will have to. We must not default on this opportunity.

Daniel A. Hussar"
 
Agreed. This guy usually knows what he's talking about.
Yes, it would be nice to have more pharmacists to provide MTM, but how are more pharmacists going to provide MTM if more pharmacists aren't hired by chain pharmacies because the corporate people want to save money and really don't care about MTM?
 
Wow as a future 2011 grad, I dont know how to react to all this worry about oversupply. Part of me wants to jump right into work and pay down my debts as fast as possible. Another part of me wants to do 2 years of residency so that I can be distinguished from all of the new grads.
 
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