Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

[type b pharmD]

Good god why did you pay that much for a pharmacy degree? Like, what is the point? So you don't save any money for retirement? WTF?

I will ultimately end up paying what I consider a fair market value for a PharmD , somewhere around $100-150k . The opportunities I had to invest and start small business during school (offshore) , taught me that finances particularly with regard to US govt, are not always what they seem. For example, while US Gov will ultimately pay $700k for my PharmD . I will pay around 150k. The opportunity to get student loans to sit around and not attend class allowed me to invest in my retirement already through small business, which, starting a steady compounding interest stream at age 25, was financially worth the trade-off of acquiring the student debt, and was a no brainer decision since it dovetails nicely with pre-existing plans to retire abroad.

Just a small piece of a bigger picture.

The on paper debt is a farce, which, I would hope anyone who has participated in higher ed scam would realize

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BMBiology]

What you are doing is student loan fraud and it is the reason why everyone has to pay 6.8% interest rate. These loans are guaranteed by the taxpayers.

I hope you get caught and your investments fall apart lol

Posting your scheme online is also stupid. You can't delete anything on the internet.

I will ultimately end up paying what I consider a fair market value for a PharmD , somewhere around $100-150k . The opportunities I had to invest and start small business during school (offshore) , taught me that finances particularly with regard to US govt, are not always what they seem. For example, while US Gov will ultimately pay $700k for my PharmD . I will pay around 150k. The opportunity to get student loans to sit around and not attend class allowed me to invest in my retirement already through small business, which, starting a steady compounding interest stream at age 25, was financially worth the trade-off of acquiring the student debt, and was a no brainer decision since it dovetails nicely with pre-existing plans to retire abroad.

Just a small piece of a bigger picture.

The on paper debt is a farce, which, I would hope anyone who has participated in higher ed scam would realize

 

[type b pharmD]

What you are doing is student loan fraud and it is the reason why everyone has to pay 6.8% interest rate. These loans are guaranteed by the taxpayers.

I hope you get caught and your investments fall apart lol

Posting your scheme online is also stupid. You can't delete anything on the internet.

Thankfully I haven't posted any info about illegal activities, and have not broken any laws. I'm just taking full advantage of the tax code, like any reasonable and diligent citizen in our wonderfully capitalist nation.

(Note to bystanders, BMB is speaking of investing student loan money into non education related purposes, which IS illegal, and I have not participated in with a single cent of his or anyone else's taxpayer dollars)

And to respond to your poor taste question about my wife's health, I am expecting to be able to pay cash for healthcare by that point.

 

[BMBiology]

^^ that is not what you wrote in the post I quoted you lol

 

[BidingMyTime]

It's a very long story that's been written in plenty of other posts, suffice it to say that my choices will allow me to meet my financial goals and retire early while being satisfied with my work life.

I hope it works out for you, I have my doubts (I would not go down the path you are going down), but hey, I've been wrong, so maybe it will work out for you.

 

[BidingMyTime]

um lol wat makes u think it's simply about "pride"? It's the environment and the lack of adequate breaks to eat, etc that make it difficult for me too as I have diabetes. I see ppl all the time going for less than 6 figures even when they have the chance and the reasons are beyond simply pride

There are pharmacists with diabetes who work for major chains, I personally know a few. They will work with you (they have to because of ADA) regarding food and medication issues.

 

[Corytrade]

...while US Gov will ultimately pay $700k for my PharmD....

You mean taxpayers. What makes you any different than someone who abuses welfare or any other assistant programs? You aren't even trying to pay back what you borrowed. Pretty ****ed up in my opinion.

 

[Sn2Rxn]

Hello everyone! I was unsure where to post the following, so I'd like to apologize if Im in the wrong thread.

My prep for Pharmacy school:
Im a non traditional student getting a BS in biochemistry with a focus on organic chemistry from a UC. Our biochem program is quite competitive, by the time I graduate I would have gone over biochem, biophysics, and the corresponding labs, along advance organic chemistry classes. I also took a very dense and involved drug design course, which I found to be amazing! In the class we used UCSF Chimera, UCSF DOCK, Spartan, PyMol, and Mathematica. I have excellent lab skills and have had the chance to take part in an organic chemistry research. After obtaining my BS, which will be in summer 2015, I plan to take an extra year for taking required preparatory courses such as physiology and anatomy amongst others, which I either did not have time to take, weren't offered, or were partially offered at my UC. Moreover, I greatly enjoy organic chemistry and I enjoy biochem in general. I loved drug design and the whole process of it (we covered pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics and much more), to me it felt like organic chemistry on much grandeur scale; putting puzzle pieces together super FUN.

I want a career, not just a job, where I can apply my gained knowledge and help people at the same time. Im hungry, driven, and dedicated. However, I find myself indecisive between Pharmacy and Pharmaceuticals. Based on my preparation and the above given description could any professional PhD and/or PharmD let me know where I would be a good fit?

Thank you for taking the time to go through this read.

 

[oldstock]

Hello everyone! I was unsure where to post the following, so I'd like to apologize if Im in the wrong thread.

My prep for Pharmacy school:
Im a non traditional student getting a BS in biochemistry with a focus on organic chemistry from a UC. Our biochem program is quite competitive, by the time I graduate I would have gone over biochem, biophysics, and the corresponding labs, along advance organic chemistry classes. I also took a very dense and involved drug design course, which I found to be amazing! In the class we used UCSF Chimera, UCSF DOCK, Spartan, PyMol, and Mathematica. I have excellent lab skills and have had the chance to take part in an organic chemistry research. After obtaining my BS, which will be in summer 2015, I plan to take an extra year for taking required preparatory courses such as physiology and anatomy amongst others, which I either did not have time to take, weren't offered, or were partially offered at my UC. Moreover, I greatly enjoy organic chemistry and I enjoy biochem in general. I loved drug design and the whole process of it (we covered pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics and much more), to me it felt like organic chemistry on much grandeur scale; putting puzzle pieces together super FUN.

I want a career, not just a job, where I can apply my gained knowledge and help people at the same time. Im hungry, driven, and dedicated. However, I find myself indecisive between Pharmacy and Pharmaceuticals. Based on my preparation and the above given description could any professional PhD and/or PharmD let me know where I would be a good fit?

Thank you for taking the time to go through this read.

you are indeed in the wrong thread, my friend you should have started a new thread in either the Pharmacy or Pre-pharmacy forums.

I am not a PharmD or PhD but I see your passion is in Pharmaceutical sciences and not Pharmacy. You would be better pursuing a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences and not a PharmD. But if you think you could do both, there are several PharmD/PhD programs out there (you can google for those). My 2 cents

 

[Sn2Rxn]

you are indeed in the wrong thread, my friend you should have started a new thread in either the Pharmacy or Pre-pharmacy forums.

I am not a PharmD or PhD but I see your passion is in Pharmaceutical sciences and not Pharmacy. You would be better pursuing a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences and not a PharmD. But if you think you could do both, there are several PharmD/PhD programs out there (you can google for those). My 2 cents

Thank you!

 

[BF7]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811430_5


"Even if 2012 proves to be the last year of major academic expansion, the full impact will not be felt until 2018, at which time the job market will have to assimilate new pharmacists at a rate of about 15,000 per year. Contrast that rate with the 30-year period from 1974 to 2003, during which the annual number of pharmacy graduates ranged between 6,000 and 8,000.[16] The number surpassed 8,000 for the first time in 2004. By 2008, it had risen to 10,000. It exceeded 12,000 in 2012 and is poised to exceed 14,000 by 2016"


I graduated 11 years ago...when the grad rate was less than HALF of what it is projected to be by 2018. I also had better interest rates on Student loans and my debt was less. I implore the MAJORITY of you to look at your decision to enter Pharmacy school from a purely economic standpoint...you will be fortunate to simply get an interview after graduating.

Go become a Physician Assistant, Optometrist or Dentist. If I were in your shoes, I'd certainly be doing that. The job market cannot and will not support 15,000 new grads each year...

"Even if the job market is able to accommodate up to 12,000 graduates a year for the next several years, that still translates into at least 3,000 graduates each year who will not find suitable employment—20% of the cohort of new graduates"

 

[87asu]

.

 

[BF7]

Same post all over the boards, you sound like a smart guy.

Redundancy can't hurt when it's regarding the flushing away of hundreds of thousands of dollars by today's students because they are unaware of the REAL business climate in Pharmacy today......and go ahead and post your link below to the "same post all over the boards"..............

 

[CLEMSONrx27]

I hope you scare off a few people maybe it'll leave a few more job positions open out there for the truly dedicated to the field.

 

[BF7]

I hope you scare off a few people maybe it'll leave a few more job positions open out there for the truly dedicated to the field.

Scare off? that's not my goal. My goal is to help them make prudent decisions about their future.....your point about "being dedicated to the field" is nothing more than PC drivel.

Would you go $200-$300K into debt for the right to enter an increasingly more competitive job market that faces not only a decrease in the number of opportunities for employment but also stagnant or decreasing wages?

Dedication is a 2 way street......and from Pharmacy Academia to State boards to our Pharmacy organizations, they all are dedicated to one thing, financial solvency. You should be too..........

 

[sunshao]

well saying go to dentistry or optometry isn't any better lol. Maybe look at their boards? we may have started the doom/gloom thread fad, but it has leaked like cancer to all the other subforums lol.

 

[WhiteSnows]

:troll:
Attention people: this guy is BMBIOLOGY. He uses a different username to repost this thread. In the past, he used to talk a lot about the number 18,000 grads by 2016. No body in this forum post something like this besides bmbiology. That is why I know it is he. He is obsessed with saturation. Don't listen to his depressing talk. No body ain't got time for it.

 

[BF7]

:troll:
Attention people: this guy is BMBIOLOGY. He uses a different username to repost this thread. In the past, he used to talk a lot about the number 18,000 grads by 2016. No body in this forum post something like this besides bmbiology. That is why I know it is he. He is obsessed with saturation. Don't listen to his depressing talk. No body ain't got time for it.

Who? I just discovered this board in July. You probably should've paid more attention to the bmbiology guy because if he was posting macro views for the future of our profession as I am( and I'm a pharmacy owner) and coming to the same conclusions... Then he was providing you sound and rational advice that your naivety and arrogance aren't allowing you to process correctly.

 

[BF7]

well saying go to dentistry or optometry isn't any better lol. Maybe look at their boards? we may have started the doom/gloom thread fad, but it has leaked like cancer to all the other subforums lol.

To even compare the professional autonomy that dentists and optometrists enjoy versus 99% of pharmacists is simply being irrational.

On the business side of things It is much easier for a dentist to obtain financing to buy an existing or to start a new practice.

Further they are paid for their professional skills whereas our profession is stilldependent upon a store being able to buy a product for less than what an insurance company will pay your for it. MTM?
Spare me...we full 230 Rxs a day and we get access to 5-8 MTM cases per month. That simply isn't sustainable. Also, PBMs are looking to close networks and only allow on certain providers ( chains) who will collude with them. Medicare part d is a great example of this.

And guess what? A much larger percentage if patients are willing to pay cash for the skills of a dentist than a pharmacist.

 

[BF7]

:troll:
Attention people: this guy is BMBIOLOGY. He uses a different username to repost this thread. In the past, he used to talk a lot about the number 18,000 grads by 2016. No body in this forum post something like this besides bmbiology. That is why I know it is he. He is obsessed with saturation. Don't listen to his depressing talk. No body ain't got time for it.

And don't worry... In 2018 when you're out of a job I'll gladly hire your desperate ass for $25 per hour...keep your head in the sand and your license in good standing....

 

[sunshao]

To even compare the professional autonomy that dentists and optometrists enjoy versus 99% of pharmacists is simply being irrational.

On the business side of things It is much easier for a dentist to obtain financing to buy an existing or to start a new practice.

Further they are paid for their professional skills whereas our profession is stilldependent upon a store being able to buy a product for less than what an insurance company will pay your for it. MTM?
Spare me...we full 230 Rxs a day and we get access to 5-8 MTM cases per month. That simply isn't sustainable. Also, PBMs are looking to close networks and only allow on certain providers ( chains) who will collude with them. Medicare part d is a great example of this.

And guess what? A much larger percentage if patients are willing to pay cash for the skills of a dentist than a pharmacist.

To even compare the professional autonomy that dentists and optometrists enjoy versus 99% of pharmacists is simply being irrational.

On the business side of things It is much easier for a dentist to obtain financing to buy an existing or to start a new practice.

Further they are paid for their professional skills whereas our profession is stilldependent upon a store being able to buy a product for less than what an insurance company will pay your for it. MTM?
Spare me...we full 230 Rxs a day and we get access to 5-8 MTM cases per month. That simply isn't sustainable. Also, PBMs are looking to close networks and only allow on certain providers ( chains) who will collude with them. Medicare part d is a great example of this.

And guess what? A much larger percentage if patients are willing to pay cash for the skills of a dentist than a pharmacist.

well my question is if it is harder to get into Optometry or Dental school compared to Pharmacy school and if those schools are harder than pharmacy school

 

[WhiteSnows]

And don't worry... In 2018 when you're out of a job I'll gladly hire your desperate ass for $25 per hour...keep your head in the sand and your license in good standing....

I guess you will be out of business before 2018. Then we both end up bring homeless lol.

 

[torontopharm]

I also see the doom and gloom threads in the Optometry threads.
To the OP, isn't Optometry also going through something similar to Pharmacy? According to SDN, optometrists are also finding it difficult to find jobs and isn't making nearly as much to pay off the tuition debt.
I'm a lowly premed and i'm just genuinely curious..Why Optometry over Pharmacy ?

 

[BF7]

I guess you will be out of business before 2018. Then we both end up bring homeless lol.

You made zero sense in your initial post claiming that I was some other poster that you happened to disagree with and you're making zero sense again with this post.

 

[BF7]

I also see the doom and gloom threads in the Optometry threads.
To the OP, isn't Optometry also going through something similar to Pharmacy? According to SDN, optometrists are also finding it difficult to find jobs and isn't making nearly as much to pay off the tuition debt.
I'm a lowly premed and i'm just genuinely curious..Why Optometry over Pharmacy ?

I listed one reason above..professional autonomy. Many optometrists are owners or part owners of their own practice...even the ones who go to work for Target etc are paid as contractors and not direct employees like Target Pharmacists are.

Optometrists are paid for a professional service that only you can provide. We Pharmacists are generating 98% of our income for dispensing a product. That product has to be purchased for less than what a third party is willing to pay us for it..and increasingly, the margins are getting less and less and about 3-4 claims per day are actually paying our at less than AQ. We had a generic bumex 2mg RX pay us at $49 less than AQ just last week. That's an extreme example but it magnifies the issue at hand. Our financial viability is on an ever narrowing slope and I'd venture to say that it's actually beginning to tilt down the mountain. Optometrist overhead is much much less...Pharmacies can be profitable but still go out of business. How is that? Our drug bill is due every 15 days and insurance companies (where 85-90% of revenue for the typical pharmacy comes from) pay us typically 24-30 days after a RX has been filled. Optometrists must also wait for insurance payments however they don't have a wholesaler supporting their viability to practice billing them at increments that require you to already have lots of cash on hand.

 

[WhiteSnows]

I listed one reason above..professional autonomy. Many optometrists are owners or part owners of their own practice...even the ones who go to work for Target etc are paid as contractors and not direct employees like Target Pharmacists are.

Optometrists are paid for a professional service that only you can provide. We Pharmacists are generating 98% of our income for dispensing a product. That product has to be purchased for less than what a third party is willing to pay us for it..and increasingly, the margins are getting less and less and about 3-4 claims per day are actually paying our at less than AQ. We had a generic bumex 2mg RX pay us at $49 less than AQ just last week. That's an extreme example but it magnifies the issue at hand. Our financial viability is on an ever narrowing slope and I'd venture to say that it's actually beginning to tilt down the mountain. Optometrist overhead is much much less...Pharmacies can be profitable but still go out of business. How is that? Our drug bill is due every 15 days and insurance companies (where 85-90% of revenue for the typical pharmacy comes from) pay us typically 24-30 days after a RX has been filled. Optometrists must also wait for insurance payments however they don't have a wholesaler supporting their viability to practice billing them at increments that require you to already have lots of cash on hand.

So what do you suggest us to do? I can't turn right, I can't turn left. Everywhere I look is doom and gloom.

 

[lisinopril]

So what do you suggest us to do? I can't turn right, I can't turn left. Everywhere I look is doom and gloom.

You should become an MD or PA. Providing direct care to patients will never be out of a job.

 

[BF7]

So what do you suggest us to do? I can't turn right, I can't turn left. Everywhere I look is doom and gloom.

Just wait until 5-10 years from now..you'll be clamoring for the good ole days of $60 per hour and inadequate staffng....if you're fortunate enough to be employed. Entering Pharmacy school in this economic climate is one of the most foolhardy decisions that a young person could make..the only young people who id suggest even apply are those who's family may already own a pharmacy or those who are on 80-100% scholarship. Those going into debt $150K plus are absolutely setting themselves up for a miserable 15-20 years of existence after graduating...

 

[PharmtoCS]

If you're willing to look outside of healthcare, one field that is booming is the tech industry. Computer programmers are in very high demand right now; many of them make over $100k straight out of undergrad without having to spend another $150k+ and 4 years on additional schooling. The benefits and work conditions are also great; many of the companies provide three gourmet meals a day, on-site gyms, daycare, shuttle buses, and other perks you won't get at most companies, let alone at chain retail stores. It's also easy to switch jobs, as headhunters are looking for pretty much anyone that can code.

 

[BF7]

If you're willing to look outside of healthcare, one field that is booming is the tech industry. Computer programmers are in very high demand right now; many of them make over $100k straight out of undergrad without having to spend another $150k+ and 4 years on additional schooling. The benefits and work conditions are also great; many of the companies provide three gourmet meals a day, on-site gyms, daycare, and other perks you won't get at most companies, let alone at chain retail store. It's also easy to switch jobs, as headhunters are looking for pretty much anyone that can code.

My older brother is also a pharmacist and he is transitioning into IT for his large nuclear pharmacy company. He doesn't fill med orders he simply consults and travels to various sites within the company to facilitate better implementation and utilization ofpharmacy systems.

 

[WhiteSnows]

Just wait until 5-10 years from now..you'll be clamoring for the good ole days of $60 per hour and inadequate staffng....if you're fortunate enough to be employed. Entering Pharmacy school in this economic climate is one of the most foolhardy decisions that a young person could make..the only young people who id suggest even apply are those who's family may already own a pharmacy or those who are on 80-100% scholarship. Those going into debt $150K plus are absolutely setting themselves up for a miserable 15-20 years of existence after graduating...

I have no problem to believe what you say. I just can't think of doing any thing different than I am now. To tell me go back to get an MD is just not possible. I am done with school and I do not wish to start a total different career. We are all doom when the dollar crash anyway. Why not enjoy what you have now?

 

[new3wad]

You guys never think out of the box. Did you know that you are very valuable to companies overseas? Did you know that you don't need visas to travel there? Did you know that you get lots of money just because you are an American citizen with a pharmD degree?
Its not just about here in the US. Even if you never found a position which I doubt, you still have a good chance somewhere else around the globe. If you want something, you will do it. Don't listen to anybody.
Thanks for the advice though

 

[BF7]

I have no problem to believe what you say. I just can't think of doing any thing different than I am now. To tell me go back to get an MD is just not possible. I am done with school and I do not wish to start a total different career. We are all doom when the dollar crash anyway. Why not enjoy what you have now?

This thread is intended for students planning to enroll in pharmacy school or those who are currently in pharmacy school. My advice to them.... The gulf between the utopia described to you by pharmacy academia and the economic realities of the profession has never been greater than it is today...

 

[sunshao]

This thread is intended for students planning to enroll in pharmacy school or those who are currently in pharmacy school. My advice to them.... The gulf between the utopia described to you by pharmacy academia and the economic realities of the profession has never been greater than it is today...

well for someone who enjoys traveling, how hard is it to find jobs out of the country or moving out to the rural areas?

 

[torontopharm]

What about other fields in pharmaceutical industry? I was under the impression that pharmD is a more diverse degree than optometry because you could get into research, work at pharmaceutical companies etc. Even if one isn't able to practice pharmacy after graduating, wouldn't they be able to get into other streams of the field ?

 

[Amicable Angora]

Who? I just discovered this board in July. You probably should've paid more attention to the bmbiology guy because if he was posting macro views for the future of our profession as I am( and I'm a pharmacy owner) and coming to the same conclusions... Then he was providing you sound and rational advice that your naivety and arrogance aren't allowing you to process correctly.

Don't get why people are getting mad at you when you're posting the truth.

 

[lisinopril]

What about other fields in pharmaceutical industry? I was under the impression that pharmD is a more diverse degree than optometry because you could get into research, work at pharmaceutical companies etc. Even if one isn't able to practice pharmacy after graduating, wouldn't they be able to get into other streams of the field ?

These jobs are extremely limited in number. Also, you need extensive network and working experiences before landing a job in these areas. Again, the majority of pharm.D grads will end up at retail and hospital setting. The rest will be a very small number of percentage.

 

[type b pharmD]

Redundancy can't hurt when it's regarding the flushing away of hundreds of thousands of dollars by today's students because they are unaware of the REAL business climate in Pharmacy today......and go ahead and post your link below to the "same post all over the boards"..............

One point you're missing is that it's really the govt's money being flushed. Yeah sticker prices are going up and job market is getting tougher, but all in all fairly meaningless in the face of income based repayment. So there will maybe be a decade where new grads can't get enough hours to make more than say, 60k on average (including unemployed) , that doesn't mean much to people who either: 1. Enjoy the field to the extent they are willing to tough it out until labor market rebounds.

2. Aren't ever going to pay their student loans anyway.

Yeah I'm a new grad with 350k in loans... My NPV repayment will be about 115,000 .. which is significantly less than a years salary .. still a good deal, and out of all 6 job offers, only 1 was below 120k. I'd still take that deal in a heartbeat if I had to choose again.

And btw I absolutely love retail pharmacy. And as far as I can tell from two job hunts and with offers from many geographic locations, the salaries are still steadily increasing for motivated rph. A buddy of mine on overnights just graduated, very little exp, $70/hr base plus reasonable OT.

Yeah it's gonna get harder to find a FT job by 2018.. but who can complain about going on IBR and still making say, 90k.. nobody is going to feel the impact of those student loans so that point is irrelevant.

And there are districts that have been saturated as hell for years (ie Denver, LA, NYC) Yeah there aren't openings, many new grads only get part time.. but salaries have still been going up, so the salary drop argument isn't holding much water either.

JMHO

 

[PrePharmacy84]

Although I rarely post..... I have read most of the post on the various pharmacy boards and it is obvious this is BMBiology!! lol Just the way he presents the information gives it away. I understand why he is so upset about saturation, but this seems a bit extreme and unhealthy
. The scare tactics will only go so far. Actually, the seats at these schools will still be filled, but the standards will be lowered significantly if you scare off the good candidates. Seems counter productive in my opinion. I live in Texas and my friend just graduated and is currently working full time at HEB.She had several options actually!! Many people are ok with the idea of living in rural areas, and of course the cities will be saturated, that is true for most jobs. Like the previous poster said, with income based repayment on student loans a new grad will be just fine. Also, many people who obtain PhD's only make 40-50 thousand and end up working at community colleges . Many fields are feeling saturated. Even if the pay was to drop by half it would still be a degree many would pursue. There will always be people who truly have a passion for Pharmacy like me . I am not choosing this field solely for the pay and prestige. I am going in eyes wide open and willing to relocate and live rural if needed. Posting in every forum is a waste of time, this will not help anything. It may scare off a few people but less candidates applying just means standards are lower... I'm not quite sure which is worse?

 

[type b pharmD]

Although I rarely post..... I have read most of the post on the various pharmacy boards and it is obvious this is BMBiology!! lol Just the way he presents the information gives it away. I understand why he is so upset about saturation, but this seems a bit extreme and unhealthy
. The scare tactics will only go so far. Actually, the seats at these schools will still be filled, but the standards will be lowered significantly if you scare off the good candidates. Seems counter productive in my opinion. I live in Texas and my friend just graduated and is currently working full time at HEB.She had several options actually!! Many people are ok with the idea of living in rural areas, and of course the cities will be saturated, that is true for most jobs. Like the previous poster said, with income based repayment on student loans a new grad will be just fine. Also, many people who obtain PhD's only make 40-50 thousand and end up working at community colleges . Many fields are feeling saturated. Even if the pay was to drop by half it would still be a degree many would pursue. There will always be people who truly have a passion for Pharmacy like me . I am not choosing this field solely for the pay and prestige. I am going in eyes wide open and willing to relocate and live rural if needed. Posting in every forum is a waste of time, this will not help anything. It may scare off a few people but less candidates applying just means standards are lower... I'm not quite sure which is worse?

Yeah I am familiar with BMB and I'd say 90% probability BF7 is him.

 

[PrePharmacy84]

Agreed!! I have read all his post on this board and this is so him ..lol

 

[BF7]

First of all, eventually every job turns into WORK. Money and recognition will eventually matter. It's human nature. and #2..I can assure you that I am not anyone other than BF7...I used to post over at Jim Plagakis's blog and I happened to stumble up on this board a few months ago. But with a few of your assertions that I must be BMB, I'd certainly like to meet this person.

 

[BF7]

One point you're missing is that it's really the govt's money being flushed. Yeah sticker prices are going up and job market is getting tougher, but all in all fairly meaningless in the face of income based repayment. So there will maybe be a decade where new grads can't get enough hours to make more than say, 60k on average (including unemployed) , that doesn't mean much to people who either: 1. Enjoy the field to the extent they are willing to tough it out until labor market rebounds.

2. Aren't ever going to pay their student loans anyway.

Yeah I'm a new grad with 350k in loans... My NPV repayment will be about 115,000 .. which is significantly less than a years salary .. still a good deal, and out of all 6 job offers, only 1 was below 120k. I'd still take that deal in a heartbeat if I had to choose again.

And btw I absolutely love retail pharmacy. And as far as I can tell from two job hunts and with offers from many geographic locations, the salaries are still steadily increasing for motivated rph. A buddy of mine on overnights just graduated, very little exp, $70/hr base plus reasonable OT.

Yeah it's gonna get harder to find a FT job by 2018.. but who can complain about going on IBR and still making say, 90k.. nobody is going to feel the impact of those student loans so that point is irrelevant.

And there are districts that have been saturated as hell for years (ie Denver, LA, NYC) Yeah there aren't openings, many new grads only get part time.. but salaries have still been going up, so the salary drop argument isn't holding much water either.

JMHO

$115,000 isn't significantly less than a year's salary...the average Pharmacist in the USA currently makes ~$62 per hour or $128,000 per year.

And I'm not clear on this...you , as someone making $128K per year, are not going to have to pay back your entire $350K in student loans (@6% interest)?? Please explain..I've heard rumblings of student loan forgiveness but I'm not aware of the specific details.

Overnight jobs do pay better..because once you have a family you will value your health (it's been proven to be affected by working midnight hours) and free time and those shifts are much less desirable for 98% of Pharmacists.

By 2018, the market pressures of the over saturation of Pharmacists will be too enticing for Chain stores not to exploit...while some markets may indeed be saturated today, by 2018 EVERYWHERE will be saturated. Right now, those people in Denver and Chicago have the ability to go find work in rural locations or other less saturated markets. You will begin to see the more experienced (RE: making a higher wage) Pharmacists being demoted or let go altogether in favor of the lesser salaried and roughly equally as capable new grads, who while facing student loan repayments and a 20% chance of being unemployed, will be accepting of $45 per hour. When you pair the MAC and reimbursement pressures from PBMs that have increased in 2014 (our gross profit is down 2% from 2012 and 2013) with an unprecedented pool of eager new employees, it will absolutely cause a shift in Pharmacists salaries and opportunities in Community & Mail order Pharmacy which employs almost 7 out of 10 Pharmacists nationwide.

Here's a link that someone posted in another thread..perhaps this will drive my point home further. http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pharmacist/Lies-about-pharmacist-job-market/t264349/p17

And hospital Pharmacists won't be immune to market forces either.....http://www.pharmaciststeve.com/?p=6019


Lay off of 150+ Pharmacists in DFW
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2014/05/05/express-scripts-to-lay-off-566-in-fort-worth.html

Lay off of 150+ Pharmacists in Tampa-St Pete

http://www.tampabay.com/news/busine...-scripts-plans-to-layoff-390-in-tampa/2177748

 

[type b pharmD]

Another point to be made is that the defacto arising of basically pharmacist apprenticeships. Which can be compared to both lawyers and doctors.

In law, apart from the very few elite who get big money jobs out of the gate, most will work 5+ years for a small local firm or clerk for maybe 30-70k per year before going on to small firm partner, judiciate, or independent.

In medicine, there is a 3-10 year residency training at $10/hr.

And those are just examples in the professions. Even with student loans and high future earnings, they still have to do basically an early career apprenticeship of sorts. With pharmacy saturation, new grads will end up spending years working 20-30 hours/week as PT/PRN . but for $50-$70/hr , that is a sweet gig compared to medicine or law, they are making real world equivalent of $10-$30/hr early career.

A lot of people actually enjoy pharmacy enough to not care about the check, clearly this is not BF7 .

Your examples of layoffs are also extremely weak. ESI as an example of a shrinking demand for pharmacists? Please. Managed care office pharmacists are not representative of 90% of the field, first of all, and secondly, those layoffs took place as a result of corporate game playing and politics, not because of fundamental changes in supply and demand. So, I'm not buying that one bit, and hopefully neither will prepharmers.

Kroger laid off hundreds of folks during central fill rollout, and asked rph to re interview for their own jobs. Looks bad on paper but 90+% got rehired, and the ones who were lost were the poor performers. Indicative of a pharmacist market bust? Hardly.

I do however agree with you on nights.. I think my buddy is headed for physical burn out pretty quickly, and it's probably not worth the money. But I know of a lot of districts where a GOOD rph is making about $70/hr on days, so it's not like the market has gotten to the point where you need to sacrifice your health to pay the bills.

 

[type b pharmD]

And one other tidbit... If chains drop salaries into the toilet, they will have a hundred pharmacy schools re-orienting their curriculums towards training independent pharmacists. Schools need to protect themselves, and if enough workers get locked out of the chain business, they will start their own shop, like other healthcare professionals. There is no reason to even try to work at a chain for a salary of say, $30-40/hr when you could start a very moderately successful indie and make 200k.

Chains will squeeze out non performers and troublemakers and replace them with new grads at maybe 10% less.

The lower the chain pay and openings go, the better the risk/reward ratio for independent practice becomes, to a certain point where it becomes a no brainer.

 

[type b pharmD]

I also own a small business, and you bet I am being squeezed on all sides for all types of pricing and market pressures. We both know that a 1% year over year drop in GROSS profits is completely meaningless. If MAC pricing is causing you to take home less and less to your family every year, I invite you to show us your books. I'm sure you either could have or did make up that gross elsewhere.

I used to help set MAC prices and as a business owner, I know they are what the market will bear. I also know the situation sucks as far as drug reimbursement goes, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the pharmacist labor pool issue.

 

[BF7]

A drop in gross profits is meaningless? Please explain to all of us your logic.

Drug reimbursement ( ie profitability ) has nothing to do with pharmacist labor pool issue? Interesting....I'll hire you.. $25 per hour. You said you don't " care about your check", right?

You obviously don't own a pharmacy as 85-90% of all revenues are derived from the RX department.

MACs are market based? There is no PBM that will willfully divulge their MAC calculation processes... And EACH PBM has different MAC prices for drugs even differing within the same PBM's GROUPS. PBMs are slow to adjust their MAC prices when a drug goes short and AQ prices rise sharply. Insurance after instance over the last 2 years... So much so that the NCPA is focusing a lot of time and energy on the MAC transparency issue and timeliness of MAC pricing updates. ( along with limited PBM pharmacy provider networks) MAC prices are nothing more than profit drivers for PBMS and their manipulation of what they charge employers vs what they pay pharmacy providers ...IE spread pricing. MAC prices are not "market driven", they are artificially created out of thin air to the detriment if pharmacy providers. There is no such thing as a free market in pharmacy when the PBMS are not simply intermediaries between the patient and their pharmacy providers.. But rather pharmacy competitors who also set their competitors prices, limitpatient access either directly ( closed networks) or indirectly ( co pay incentives) and also data mine their competitors ( us) customers.

PBMs are major employers of pharmacists in some cities..a layoff of 100+ pharmacists is nothing to scoff at. Ask the pharmacists in DFW and Tampa if that was insignificant. The turnover in chain stores is beginning.. Go read some pharmacy blogs including the link I posted above ( indeed.com)... And to compare the prestige and status enjoyed by physcians and lawyers to what's become of our profession, especially in a chain retail environment ( slave labor metrics above patient care) is foolhardy. They are paid based upon their knowledge.. The foundation for our professions existence is 90% based on our ability to purchase a product from a wholesaler at less than what a PBM wants to pay us for it.

I'd LOVE to see more pharmacists own their own stores; in fact I think it's essential for our profession to grow in a positive fashion. But there are truly 2-3 banks nationwide who even consider lending money to pharmacists for a new start up...and they are even less likely to loan $150-250k to a pharmacist 1-4 years out of school with $100k+ student loan debt to repay. And you'd better have your 20% ready to put down for that SBA loan. Conventional loans from a bank ??? you can forget about those for a start up( rare exception is the small town bank ). The truth of the matter is , the job market by 2018 predicts that 1 of every 5 new grads will be unable to find work...if I didn't own a pharmacy I could not in good conscience recommend pharmacy for my children. I feel it my duty to tell any students who may be reading this blog the truth.. 11 years ago when I graduated, I had no concerns whatsoever about finding employment with a company who I felt treated me with respect. If I didn't feel as though I was making a positive difference or if I was being asked to do something that I felt uncomfortable with I literally could quit that morning and have an interview that afternoon.

Now, grads will be fortunate to find employment, likely be stuck in stores that the more tenured pharmacists don't want to be a part of and face increased pressure for even higher metrics with Rx script counts increasing and GROSS PROFIT shrinking and less auxiliary help. If I was 22 right now I'd go become a PA.

 

[type b pharmD]

A drop in gross profits is meaningless? Please explain to all of us your logic.

Drug reimbursement ( ie profitability ) has nothing to do with pharmacist labor pool issue? Interesting....I'll hire you.. $25 per hour. You said you don't " care about your check", right?

You obviously don't own a pharmacy as 85-90% of all revenues are derived from the RX department.

MACs are market based? There is no PBM that will willfully divulge their MAC calculation processes... And EACH PBM has different MAC prices for drugs even differing within the same PBM's GROUPS. PBMs are slow to adjust their MAC prices when a drug goes short and AQ prices rise sharply. Insurance after instance over the last 2 years... So much so that the NCPA is focusing a lot of time and energy on the MAC transparency issue and timeliness of MAC pricing updates. ( along with limited PBM pharmacy provider networks) MAC prices are nothing more than profit drivers for PBMS and their manipulation of what they charge employers vs what they pay pharmacy providers ...IE spread pricing. MAC prices are not "market driven", they are artificially created out of thin air to the detriment if pharmacy providers. There is no such thing as a free market in pharmacy when the PBMS are not simply intermediaries between the patient and their pharmacy providers.. But rather pharmacy competitors who also set their competitors prices, limitpatient access either directly ( closed networks) or indirectly ( co pay incentives) and also data mine their competitors ( us) customers.

PBMs are major employers of pharmacists in some cities..a layoff of 100+ pharmacists is nothing to scoff at. Ask the pharmacists in DFW and Tampa if that was insignificant. The turnover in chain stores is beginning.. Go read some pharmacy blogs including the link I posted above ( indeed.com)... And to compare the prestige and status enjoyed by physcians and lawyers to what's become of our profession, especially in a chain retail environment ( slave labor metrics above patient care) is foolhardy. They are paid based upon their knowledge.. The foundation for our professions existence is 90% based on our ability to purchase a product from a wholesaler at less than what a PBM wants to pay us for it.

I'd LOVE to see more pharmacists own their own stores; in fact I think it's essential for our profession to grow in a positive fashion. But there are truly 2-3 banks nationwide who even consider lending money to pharmacists for a new start up...and they are even less likely to loan $150-250k to a pharmacist 1-4 years out of school with $100k+ student loan debt to repay. And you'd better have your 20% ready to put down for that SBA loan. Conventional loans from a bank ??? you can forget about those for a start up( rare exception is the small town bank ). The truth of the matter is , the job market by 2018 predicts that 1 of every 5 new grads will be unable to find work...if I didn't own a pharmacy I could not in good conscience recommend pharmacy for my children. I feel it my duty to tell any students who may be reading this blog the truth.. 11 years ago when I graduated, I had no concerns whatsoever about finding employment with a company who I felt treated me with respect. If I didn't feel as though I was making a positive difference or if I was being asked to do something that I felt uncomfortable with I literally could quit that morning and have an interview that afternoon.

Now, grads will be fortunate to find employment, likely be stuck in stores that the more tenured pharmacists don't want to be a part of and face increased pressure for even higher metrics with Rx script counts increasing and GROSS PROFIT shrinking and less auxiliary help. If I was 22 right now I'd go become a PA.

MACs are created out of thin air because payors and vendors are market makers. Just like doctors and PAs pay is basically set by CMS.

Your profit could have gone down 1% for any conceivable reason. Maybe you pissed off the wrong customer or maybe your staff was slower, maybe you didn't keep up with market changes.. personally I am surprised when business owners sit and complain. If you are working for yourself, why are you on here complaining rather than working to expand your business? I ask sincerely? Because I still recommend pharmacy as a profession to the right people, on a frequent basis. It is a good business to be in, one way or another, if you have what it takes. Most of the doom and gloom is coming from people who expected some epic rewards from healthcare and complaining about missing the good old days. Well, the good old days are gone. Being in the top 5% of income earners is still a pretty good consolation prize.

 

[PrePharmacy84]

The comment about " If I was 22 I would go to be a PA ," is hilarious. Why does everyone think someone would want to switch roles like that. ? I chose to pursue pharmacy bc I love Pharmacy. I would not like giving pelvic exams, dealing with feeding tubes, stitches , or other disgusting things. My very dear friend is a Nurse Practitioner and was let go from her job recently. The reason she was let go was because they dropped her pay by 10 dollars , then after a few months said they needed to decrease her pay again to 25 dollars an hour!!!!! She would not agree to this! She told me they hired a new grad for 20 less than they paid her. Many fields are becoming saturated and experiencing this problem. PAs and NPs have essentially the same job and compete for jobs. It's only a matter of time before all fields become saturated as more people attend school in general. I know nurses who graduated and could not find work for a very long time. It seems you chose this field for money and that will never lead to happiness. All fields have up and downs. While I don't disagree that the new schools may cause some problems, you are going overboard , and warning people will not work. There will always be someone that is waiting and hoping to be accepted that is the less than ideal candidate. I truly think you should let go of this because like the economy, one person cannot change a whole system.

 

[PrePharmacy84]

PA school is only 2 years ! I think all the Pharmacist that complain and doom and gloom should leave this field and go pursue PA. Take your own advice !!!