It's hard to imagine this happening. I just can't see the retail chains caring at all. At best it may happen on an individual basis, where people start to notice certain schools graduate inferior pharmacists, but I'd argue that sort of system already exists in many people's minds.
Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook
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It's hard to imagine this happening. I just can't see the retail chains caring at all. At best it may happen on an individual basis, where people start to notice certain schools graduate inferior pharmacists, but I'd argue that sort of system already exists in many people's minds.
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That would not really be a tier system. That's just prejudice. Or really poor sampling.
With the number of schools out now, there's no way for an individual to have an idea of how all of them compare. The only distinguishing factor would be "name I recognize" or "name I don't".
But I do agree that pharmacy tiers won't happen. I guess law school has rankings because winning cases depends on it. I'd obviously take a Harvard lawyer over a tier 2 or 3, if all other things were equal.
If being from a better pharmacy school meant you caught more and made more interventions and saved more hospital money or were better at verifying/MTMs and less of a liability in the community (error rate of like 1 in 1 billion), then maybe tiers would matter. But the Rx world now is like MD/DO/Island MD. Usually no one cares where you went.
A colleague and I were discussing this, and the conclusion we came to was unemployment is not a self correcting factor. Look at unemployment for JDs. Law schools still fill up their roster. Most of the people enrolling in them think, "Oh, all of that doesn't affect me. I'll be the one to get a job and set the example." Only having a tighter accrediting body on new schools opening can make a difference.
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I live in Cleveland (suburbs). It's nice! Be nice to Cleveland! Only the east side gets lake effect snow!
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According to the Pharmacy Manpower Project, there has been a massive fall in demand just recently (biggest fall I've seen on the chart): http://pharmacymanpower.com/
Starting to honestly be terrified as a soon to be new grad.
Starting to honestly be terrified as a soon to be new grad.
That's not too bad
Unless my RC skills need some serious work, hasn't the demand index value bounced back from the sub-3.0 bottom it hit in November? In other words, could it be that November 2015 was simply a "fluke" month?
You need to look again and look at what months they are looking at. Last update was November.
Click the trends and generate a graph to see the 10 year decline.
It honestly doesn't look as bad as some of the post I have read make it out to be. Midwest seems like it has been right around 3 for the past 4-5 years, even peaking past 3 for a few months. Seems like the trend will continue that way for a few years at the very least. I know of recent pharmacists that have gotten jobs at a decent distance from their homes in the northern Chicago area.
...I'm not sure we're looking at the same graph. The manpower project has always lagged behind. If anything, the rather sharp drop is more indicative if what's to come.
But anecdotal info about how you know some recent pharmacists that have gotten jobs isn't really informative.
I know it's not very informative. I was just pointing out that the overall data for the past 3-4 years lines up with what people have been telling me about pharmacy job outlook in my area. But of course every case is different.
My take... it depends on where.
If you are a new grad looking for a job Austin, TX and suburbia the answer is good luck finding a job.
If you looking for a job in Colby, KS chances are people would fight over you.
Most new grads will not leave the nightlife and singles scene the larger cities offer. That's why they are saturated. However, who wants to live in (go ahead and Google it because I know you don't know where it is) Colby, Kansas.
You mean the preceptor with 20+ years of experience wondering how you don't know something when 5000 things are tossed at you in a week, you take an exam, and never see that topic again until the preceptor asks you about it because its all they do day in and day out. That preceptor?
He's referring to the decrease in knowledge in comparison to students in the past. And it's a fairly common sentiment where I'm from as well. Many preceptors I know are of the opinion that students from newer schools are just not as knowledgeable. And many of them have a general idea of what a student should and shouldn't already know from school.
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I have to add to this sentiment. For example, a 4th year student who does not know, between Proair and Advair, if the inhalers were to be used together, which one should precede the other. Even if you don't know off-hand, I would expect some degree of critical thinking would allow one to figure it out. It's a bit of a failure on the side of pharmacy schools to allow these students to be passed on year to year. It may not necessarily be the quality of the education itself, per se, but perhaps rather that these things were excellently taught and the failure was in screening students who do not understand or learn what was taught.
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So what's the answer? I feel like there are different opinions on this.
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Well, it's a bit off-topic. I was just giving an example, but I'm curious - have these differing opinions that you have heard come with supportive reasoning? What have you heard?
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I've heard that one should use proair first to open up the lungs so advair can penetrate deeper.
I've also heard that since albuterol competes for the same receptors as salmeterol, if proair is used first, advair won't have its full effect.
You know how the long acting beta agonists all have that warning about increasing the risk of death from asthma? There ya go.
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As a med. student, I know about them if you mention their generic name, but not when you mention Proair and Advair. Is that bad? haha.
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What really makes Advair not have its full effect is when the patient can't properly take a deep breath because their airways are constricted (so it would be correct to use the SABA first). But you bring up an interesting point, and if a student told me that, I'd actually give them some credit for thinking about receptor pharmacology. I don't know enough about the medication to say whether or not LABAs at usual dosage and with proper usage would be able saturate the beta receptors in the airways...I'm inclined to say no especially since Advair is a dry powder (would probably be deposited onto the bronchioles in a pretty dispersed manner, even more so than aerosols), but they definitely would not be saturating if the inhalations were not deep enough anyways. The second question is, even if they do saturate, LABAs don't bind irreversibly, so it doesn't mean SABAs would be unable to kick them off. I wouldn't discredit the concern that LABAs and SABAs may compete, I think we just don't know enough to substantiate that or base practice off of that.
It would be good to know them by the name that patients know them by...which is often the generic name for meds that are long-time generics (nobody really calls simvastatin Zocor anymore, for example, though recent generics like atorvastatin are still often referred to by brand name), or brand name for brand-name only meds. So you know what they are talking about when they mention them. And Advair just happens just easier to say than fluticasone/salmeterol.
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I guess in that case, treating the exacerbation is more important.
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This was in response to Baller saying he wouldn't recognize the names unless they were in generic. When talking to people who know the med names, it's fine to use whatever is convenient, brand, generic, or abbreviation...but not knowing a brand or generic name is probably an issue if that's what your patients are going to refer to them by.
owlegrad
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Which generic is easier than the brand? Just curious.
Personally I always use generic unless it is only available by brand. One exception is ZPAK. I actually hate when scripts come in written for generic when they are only available by brand because my techs never know what they are, lol. Sometimes I don't even know without looking it up.
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I also say Bactroban because I just do not know how to pronounce the ridiculous generic name, now that I think about it.
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Bactrim/Septra
Neomycin
Synercid
Is it considered cheating/out of the scope of your list to list these combo drugs? Fine, I'll do non-combo drugs too....
Vitamin K
Vitamin B12
Pyridium
Reopro
Hi guys....
Any jobs available in the Dallas/Fort Worth Area that you guys are aware of??? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I submitted at least 30 applications some to the same company for different locations. I am not picky about where in the DFW...I just want to stay in the DFW area. Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!!
Any jobs available in the Dallas/Fort Worth Area that you guys are aware of??? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I submitted at least 30 applications some to the same company for different locations. I am not picky about where in the DFW...I just want to stay in the DFW area. Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!!
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cipro
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I have been more competitive for residencies than actual pharmacy jobs. 20+ apps sent out there between retail and hospital. One offer thus far for 32+ hours floating (salary slightly below $100K). But I've gotten interviews to 2/3rds of the residencies I've applied to lol.
Residencies are becoming easier to obtain than actual pharmacy jobs. This market is absolutely sickening.
Residencies are becoming easier to obtain than actual pharmacy jobs. This market is absolutely sickening.
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Which area is this?
I'm curious to which areas you're applying to lol
They just want to use you for cheap labor
Amazing how everyone wants to exploit pharmacists
Chains and hospitals
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During my pharmacy schooling, I did a voluntary week-long shadowing with the owners of Smith Drug after meeting them in New Orleans at the NCPA convention. Do I win a prize?
Sorry to chime in. I am still researching the health care field to decide what I am trying to pursue for a career in health care. That is just to say that I might not know much.
Anyway, I think people care where you go for school. At least when you first start out, not yet established. From reading the med forums, it seems like those Caribbean MDs are having more difficult time to obtain residencies vs. US MD s of the same Step scores. Tier system seems to play for US MDs too though not as much as Carribean vs US.
In general, people do not care where you go for school if there are enough jobs. When the market gets tight, anything regarding your credentials could possibly become a barrier to get jobs.
Please some med students or doctors correct me if I were wrong here.
Unless law schools want to lower their bar even further down, they are currently having hard time to fill up their schools according to this article,
Lowering the Bar
More law schools are admitting less qualified students. Are they prepared for what happens next?
January 16, 2015
By
Ry Rivard
As the number of students going to law school drops dramatically, law schools are increasingly competing for students with lower undergraduate grades and LSAT scores.
Thomas M. Cooley Law School – the largest law school in the country – is known for admitting students other law schools would not touch. The reputation is increasingly inaccurate. Last fall, seven law schools had entering classes with lower median LSAT scores than Cooley’s.
Professors who study legal education worry that schools are enrolling more and more students who have not proved they can graduate law school. Equally concerning is that law schools are admitting and then graduating students who might not be able to pass the bar exam.
Five years ago, no American Bar Association-accredited law school had an entering class with a median LSAT score of less than 145. Now, seven law schools do, according to Jerome M. Organ, a professor at University of St. Thomas School of Law who studies the legal market. That means at least half the first-year students at seven law schools scored a 144 on the LSAT or lower.
The LSAT has a scale of 180 down to 120. The average LSAT score is around 150. The LSAT has a margin of error, but 145 is considered a symbolic line by legal education experts and school administrators.
"At one level, we’re in uncharted territory,” Organ said.
Southern University Law Center – part of the historically black Southern University and A&M College System – is one of those seven schools. Its median LSAT score last fall was 144. Still, it is running into competition for students.
“Certain schools never would have admitted a student with a 145 LSAT score several years ago,” said SULC's vice chancellor, John K. Pierre. “But this year they did and last year they did, and in some cases they are even offering students with that profile scholarships or tuition reductions.”
Enrollment at ABA-accredited law schools is the lowest it has been since 1973, even though there are 53 more law schools open now, according to Moody's Investors Service. The students still trying to get to law school also have lower test scores than in the recent past.
So the vast majority of law schools are not only shrinking in size but also admitting less-qualified students.
Organ’s work, based on annual disclosures law schools make to the ABA, shows that 136 law schools had a median LSAT score of 155 or higher in 2010. Now, only 101 schools still have an entering class with a median LSAT of 155 or higher.
The seven law schools with the lowest median LSAT scores portray themselves as schools of opportunity for students who think they can make it but may not have the scores or grades to prove it. The same schools can also be accused of irresponsibly admitting some students who don't belong in law school.
For students, the risk is not just time but money. Students with lower LSAT scores pay more to attend law school than students with higher scores. Organ found two-thirds of students with scores below 150 are paying more than $30,000 a year for law school, but they may not pass the bar and have "limited employment opportunities through which to recoup their investment in a legal education." The average student who scored 155 or higher pays less than $30,000 a year, attends a better-regarded law school and has better chances after graduating.
Three of the seven schools with the lowest median LSAT scores are in the for-profit Infilaw system. Those are Arizona Summit Law School, Florida Coastal School of Law and the Charlotte School of Law in North Carolina.
One candidate for dean of Florida Coastal became a cause célèbre last year after he was escorted off campus during a presentation to faculty.
The candidate, David Frakt, told the faculty it was unfair and ethically questionable to admit so many students with a 144 or lower. He said such scores indicate a poor aptitude for law school and mean that students face “extreme risk” of failing the bar exam. The median LSAT score for Florida Coastal’s entering class last fall was 143.
“For me, that 145 – going below that, even 145 itself – should be a no-go zone,” said Frakt, an Air Force lieutenant colonel and former legal scholar. “That really was conventional wisdom five years ago.”
Frakt said he warned Florida Coastal professors that students with low LSAT scores could risk the school’s ABA accreditation in years to come. The accreditor forbids schools from admitting students who do not “appear capable” of completing law school and passing the bar exam.
Increasingly, champions of a law school education tout law school as a solid path for students who have no intention of becoming lawyers but could use legal thinking and knowledge for other jobs. At a recent press conference hosted by the leaders of the Association of American Law Schools, there was a good deal of talk about exciting opportunities for law school graduates in fields unrelated to the practice of law.
As the number of incoming law students has fallen, most law schools have been left with a choice: They can maintain their admissions standards and suffer enrollment declines, or they can lower standards to keep up enrollment.
Barry Currier, managing director of accreditation and legal education at the ABA, said schools could run into trouble. If those lower-profile students flunk out, it would be a sign that schools are taking students they are not able to graduate.
“A school that has relatively lower credentials on the front end and high attrition may have an issue, even if their bar pass rate is good,” Currier said.ABA reaccredits schools every seven years.
It is also bad for law schools if their students graduate but fail to pass the bar, a sign that schools may be passing students through without preparing them for actually being a lawyer.
In the past two years, the number of students who have dropped out, flunked or transferred to another law school has not changed substantially, according to ABA data. It is not yet known how they will fare on the bar exam.
Currier said there are ways to check in on law schools in between regular ABA visits, but none of that interim monitoring has turned into a full-blown reaccreditation process and no schools are on probation.
“Our process is sort of set up to look back at how a school has done with the students it chose to take and how the program is offered,” he said.
Frakt, who is a controversial figure in some circles, argues the ABA is not doing enough and law schools are taking advantage of the accreditation cycle to admit students who may not pass the bar. Because of the time between admission and when students take the bar exam, the law schools admitting less-qualified students are not yet facing ABA scrutiny.
“There’s a window of opportunity there where their bar numbers don’t look too bad, so they can continue to draw in students, and make money off students,” Frakt said. “Because those students don’t realize how weak their chances really are.”
The public information available about law schools also leaves something to be desired.
The bar passage numbers, for instance, don’t on their own give students a great sense of their chances in law school. If a law school class begins with 100 students and 30 drop out over the course of law school, that leaves 70 who graduate. If 49 of those 70 pass the bar, the school’s bar passage rate will be 70 percent. But that would mean that only 49 of the 100 students the school originally admitted ended up passing the bar.
Reports released by the ABA allow the public to find out these numbers, but it involves looking at reports from several different years.
Also, because law schools report LSAT scores for the 75th, 50th and 25th percentile of their class – and not the average LSAT score – a school could have a quarter of their students with a 145 or above but 24 percent of their students with far, far lower scores. No one says it’s remotely likely, but in theory, 24 percent of a law school class could have scored a 120 on the LSAT – the lowest score possible – without its being detectable by publicly available information.
The LSAT itself is of debatable use. It’s meant to predict first-year performance, but it is used as an imperfect way of predicting graduation and bar passage rates.
Thomas Cooley, now known as the Western Michigan University Cooley Law School, has always relied on more than just the LSAT score. But unlike some other schools, its median LSAT score has not fallen below 145.
Organ, Frakt and others suspect that is because Cooley has long dealt with low-scoring students and knows it cannot dip much further into the applicant pool without seeing its graduation rate or bar passage rate deteriorate.
Don LeDuc, the president and dean of Cooley, said the school’s level student profile is a result but not the intent of admissions policies that have remained virtually unchanged despite the shocks in the market. It is working on a new admissions metric that relies more on college grades than LSAT scores, but DeLuc predicted it will not change the LSAT score much, if at all.
Because it has not lowered its admissions standards, Cooley has taken quite a hit. Its first-year class had 1,161 students in 2011. This year’s incoming class was about 60 percent smaller – just 445 students. As a result of the enrollment losses, Cooley is working to close one of its five campuses.
LeDuc said Cooley, a private nonprofit, is facing more competition for students with an LSAT score of around 145.
The dean worries about law schools that do not have as much experience with low-LSAT or low-GPA students.
“I would hope they are not going to just bring them in and do exactly what they did with their student profile in the past,” LeDuc said.
Cooley uses a predictive model to tell all students their chances of success based on their GPA and LSAT. The school doesn’t admit anyone with less than a two-thirds chance of succeeding.
Students know, in other words, that they might have an uphill climb.
That may not be so clear for students at other schools.
Jay Conison, dean of the Charlotte School of Law, said his school does not explicitly tell students their chance of success. Instead, he said, advisers tell students what they will have to do to succeed.
Charlotte is part of the for-profit Infilaw system. Its entering class last fall had a median LSAT score of 142, down from a median score of 148 in 2011.
Conison said the college is offering more students conditional admission and then fully enrolling them if they pass two pre-law classes. The school is also working to provide students more help while they are enrolled and as they prepare to take the bar – but the school will also change what it teaches.
“It is certainly very clear that it is a population that is going to require more of the kind of support mechanisms in the school that we provide for our students,” he said. “And it also will mean that the curriculum will have to be adapted to the different character of the students, and it may mean that more intensive support for bar passage will have to be provided.”
At Appalachian School of Law, a stand-alone law school in southwestern Virginia, the median LSAT score for last fall's entering class was 144. That’s the same as it was in 2011, but enrollment has fallen dramatically since then. In 2011, there were 146 incoming students. Last fall, there were 48.
Donna Weaver, a spokeswoman for the school, said that the enrollment drop meant that Appalachian had to lay off faculty but was able to protect its LSAT score. The school worried about admitting students with lower LSAT scores because it feared they would not be able to pass the bar.
But Appalachian, a private nonprofit, is also running into competition for students from other schools offering them scholarships.
“The price wars are scary,” Weaver said. “We can’t afford to just drop our tuition altogether."
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https://www.insidehighered.com/news...pete-students-many-may-not-have-admitted-past
Nah, where you go to school doesn't really matter in pharmacy. There can be some regional prejudices, especially if there is a local school that is well known for producing subpar pharmacists, but that isn't too common. Maybe this will change in the future, but it's not really a thing now.
Also, pharmacy school rankings are kind of a joke.
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Truth. I know someone who almost failed out of pharmacy school who got a residency in a desirable location lmao. Residencies are a joke. Much like our profession.
who the hell gets 5 different vaccinations at a ****ing pharmacy
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What?
I used to live in Cleveland and I can confirm that only the east side gets lake effect snow. But wind chill effects EVERYONE. I read in the newspapers that Cleveland is dangerous, but frankly, I didn't feel unsafe in the suburbs or even in the university district (where Case Western Reserve, University Hospitals of Cleveland, Severence Hall are). However, this was years ago in early 2000's so maybe things have changed?
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Undocumented workers, DREAMER kids, and businessmen from overseas with long stays but no health insurance.
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You realize Cleveland was the hope of a man who kidnapped, tortured and raped three girls for over a decade, right? And this was 3 years ago in 2013. Not much has changed about Cleveland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings
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Looks like new Pharmacy Manpower data has come out, still a national surplus of pharmacists overall. As a new grad I can confirm that jobs are very slim.
http://www.pharmacymanpower.com/
http://www.pharmacymanpower.com/
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Were you able to find a job?
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Still looking, but also still in the process of getting licensed and taking boards. Used to be you could get hired as a grad intern prior to licensure, those jobs really only exist in hard to staff areas now. In my city there are maybe 5 pharmacist jobs with most being hospitals wanting years of experience.
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Get a job as soon as you get your intern license. Work your ass off, don't complain, and show that you are committed to the job and you will have an offer before you graduate. Don't be a slack ass bitch and and request every weekend off so you can go get drunk with your friends. Its really not that complicated. Even if its not the job you want, it will be much easier to find a good job if you are at least employed.
Isn't residency require?
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No, residency is not required. The only credential you're required to have is your degree and license.
I only have 1-year of experience working as a pharmacist. What are my chances?
