Pharmacy Job Market/Outlook

[ret09]

I don't think anyone is blaming the immigrants - at least, I hope not. It is not their fault they are being used in such a manner. Congress however gets a lot of contributions from corporate associations that profit handsomely from maximizing H1-Bs. This makes victims of both US-born as well as the basically indentured immigrants, both of which are now forced to compete for depressed wages. The only winners are the companies, Congress and good old-fashioned greed.

(Side note: And you can't always find these donations when you look them up - a lot of them are "soft donations." Example: my old company used to sponsor dinners for various Congresspeople, to the tune of $500-$1000 per plate for individuals choosing to attend. Thus the Congressperson would earn thousands in individual contributions thanks to us, but none of it *technically* came from us so it was left off the books).

The system that encourages these visas is incredibly corrupt and is NOT looking out for us as workers, that is all I am saying.

I agree with all that, and that definitely has to change, but the OP is clearly attacking all immigrants. All I'm saying is that the OP needs to get his facts straight. He makes it sound like thousands and thousands of foreigners are flooding the pharmacy market because of some made it up nonsense about the recession freeing up visas for pharmacists, when in fact there were 300 foreign educated pharmacists that entered the US work force last. And this number hasn't changed much over the past 5 years (most likely longer, but the HRSA report starts with data from 2004), and isn't expected to change much over the next decades.

Like I said, the OP is blaming the "surplus" on the 300 extra pharmacists that came into the US last year, and that is completely inaccurate.

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[SHC1984]

I love this argument. And by love it, I mean its stupid and baseless: "Its all those Indian pharmacists' fault!!"

There are a total of 10,700 foriegn educated pharmacists in the US.

The year before that: 10,400

The year before that: 10,100

The year before that: 9,700

This number has steadily increased (and is estimated to continue to do so) by ~600/year.*

The point is that there have always been a bunch of foreign pharmacists in the US workforce, and the 300 or so pharmacists that entered the US market last year didn't magically saturate the market overnight.

Bare with me here: Statistically speaking, 300 extra pharmacists last year means each state got got a whopping 6 additional pharmacists in 2008. Noooooo!!!! Quick! Close down the borders!! Get the immigrants out! Build that giant fence around the US! Who's going to build it though?

*from the December 2008 HRSA report, you can get it online

You also think illegal immigrants and working without paying taxes is okay too right? I mean as long as there isn't a lot of them its okay?

And 10,700 spots taken away from people that are suppose to get the job is a lot. Hell, 1 stolen spot is a lot versus 10,700 potential spots that are stolen away.

 

[Argentium]

Stumbled upon this really great article about immigration, the recession, and the profession of nursing on BusinessWeek ...

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily...9/db20090619_970033.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

Here's an interesting bit of it "In May, Representative Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) introduced a bill that would allow 20,000 additional nurses to enter the U.S. each year for the next three years as a temporary measure to fill the gap." It'll never happen, but interesting nonetheless =P

 

[confettiflyer]

Maybe they'll implement a system like in France and actually reward health care providers for doing a good job. I remember in Sicko (yes, it was Michael Moore, I know.) they interviewed the American doctor living in France. He said he got a bonus at the end of year based on how many people he got to quit smoking, how effective his cholesterol management was going, etc.

Oh I would TOTALLY skim patients based on this...anyone I deem to be lazy/not interested in compliance would get dropped as they'd affect my bottom line. Wonder if there are safeguards in France against this.

 

[RNtoPharmD]

Stumbled upon this really great article about immigration, the recession, and the profession of nursing on BusinessWeek ...

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily...9/db20090619_970033.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

Here's an interesting bit of it "In May, Representative Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) introduced a bill that would allow 20,000 additional nurses to enter the U.S. each year for the next three years as a temporary measure to fill the gap." It'll never happen, but interesting nonetheless =P

Oh.. My.. They just passed the bill "50,000-60,000 visas" for nurses and PT 4-5 years ago during Bush Administration (see link below) and the visa numbers was exhausted in 2006. I was lucky to be one of those nurses.

http://www.ofwguide.com/article_item.php?articleid=767

But still... Now, they want another 20,000 of nurses. Humm.. where are all those 50,000 nurses and PTs who entered the US a few years ago? They quit?

But unlike PharmD, nurses are NOT eligible for H1-B due to lack of requirement for Bachelor degree. Now EB-3, the only practical visa type nurses are qualified for. Therefore, it makes sense considering the motivation behind this lobbying attempt.

 

[fruity]

i think a lot of people people would be offended when you said "These foreign grads recieved a sub-par degree over seas and now they are flooding the market." These people have gone though their own country's competive education

 

[SHC1984]

i think a lot of people people would be offended when you said "These foreign grads recieved a sub-par degree over seas and now they are flooding the market." These people have gone though their own country's competive education

He should have say BS vs PharmD and not sub-par. Forgieners have BS in Pharmacy. US Pharmacist have a PharmD.

 

[maldini99]

[You also think illegal immigrants and working without paying taxes is okay too right? I mean as long as there isn't a lot of them its okay?

And 10,700 spots taken away from people that are suppose to get the job is a lot. Hell, 1 stolen spot is a lot versus 10,700 potential spots that are stolen away.[/QUOTE]

you can't work in any legible pharmacy unless you have a green card or a work permit, which means you must pay taxes. so most of the foreign pharmacist are legal and should pay taxes

 

[Taurus]

For every foreign pharmacist they hire, that's 1 less job for a US pharm. That's not a problem if there are plenty of jobs to go around. However, when the market is competitive like today and in the future for pharm, the trickle down effect of having foreign workers is lower wages and fewer job prospects. While it may not be politically correct to talk about it, that's the economic reality of foreign workers.

That is what has happened in the IT field because of outsourcing jobs to places like India or insourcing foreign workers who often work for lower wages. US-trained IT workers would be making higher salaries and have more jobs available if it wasn't for outsourcing and insourcing of cheap labor.

 

[SHC1984]

For every foreign pharmacist they hire, that's 1 less job for a US pharm. That's not a problem if there are plenty of jobs to go around. However, when the market is competitive like today and in the future for pharm, the trickle down effect of having foreign workers is lower wages and fewer job prospects. While it may not be politically correct to talk about it, that's the economic reality of foreign workers.

That is what has happened in the IT field because of outsourcing jobs to places like India or insourcing foreign workers who often work for lower wages. US-trained IT workers would be making higher salaries and have more jobs available if it wasn't for outsourcing and insourcing of cheap labor.

and lets not even start on the fact that some don't pay taxes.

 

[cactus124]

I don't think it is fair to talk that a foreign grad is here to deprive the US grad of his/her job. It's a fair game, you set the rules and just because we are following them doesn't mean that we are hurting your livelihood. America is a land of immigrants, do you think when your forefathers came to this country, same thing happened. Instead of complaining about foreign workers, try to channel your energies to do something innovative.

IT outsourcing is a different ball game. There is a saying America's Business is "Business", every business wants to "maximize" profits, so they realized that it is cheaper for them to get their IT work done from elsewhere so that they can cut costs. The jobs that are outsourced are not the "core" design and or R&D jobs, it is still done here, it's only the "grunt" jobs that are outsourced.

Tomorrow, if they find a place to do manufacturing in Africa cheaper than in China, what do you think will happen?

 

[ret09]

You also think illegal immigrants and working without paying taxes is okay too right? I mean as long as there isn't a lot of them its okay?

And 10,700 spots taken away from people that are suppose to get the job is a lot. Hell, 1 stolen spot is a lot versus 10,700 potential spots that are stolen away.

Boo-hoo. See know your making **** up. Hey, I am A-OK cracking down on illegal immigration. That said, immigration is necessary for the US economy, unless if you and your buddies want to pick tomatoes for 2 bucks an hour. Also, aside from what Pappa-Rush and Glenn feed into your head, I bet you didn't know two-thirds of all illegal immigrants pay medicare, social security, and income tax. Plus, many of those do so using fake names and numbers, so they are effectively putting money into the system and never be able get anything out from it.

I haven't heard you complaining about the real culprits destroying our economy: The 2 out of every three US corporations that don't pay federal revenue tax. Want some more numbers? How about the 68% of foriegn companies working in the US avoiding taxes as well. Or the 25% of America's largest companies, avoiding taxes on $1.1 trillion dollars on 2005 alone. Can you imagine how many more countries we could have invaded and muslims waterboarded during the Bush presidency with all that cash? Why don't you complain a little about them, instead of whining about the 10,000 pharmacists that came to this country (most of them many years and years ago), LEGALLY, and all pay their taxes like real, patriotic americans.

My point (third times the charm?) is that 300 pharmacists per year isn't breaking the system. And unless you know otherwise, there aren't many illegal immigrant pharmacists working at Walgreens. But your right, lets build that giant fence. That'll solve all are problems. Maybe we can build two giant fences, one for the illegal immigrants, one for all you ignorant people.

 

[CopToEM]

Oh I would TOTALLY skim patients based on this...anyone I deem to be lazy/not interested in compliance would get dropped as they'd affect my bottom line. Wonder if there are safeguards in France against this.

I'm almost certain that there are. I haven't looked it up in quite some time and couldn't find specifics in a Google search but I remember reading about them before. Remember, the doctor's in France are mostly hired by the government, so it's not as easy as just dropping patients. Doctors are paid a base salary that can increase exponentially based on the results acquired from the patients assigned to you.

France has a, to my understanding, 100% free health care system. I don't live there... but from reading up on it and talking to friends who have studied abroad they say it's surprisingly good. Of course, like any health care system, they say it does have drawbacks.

Hell, they even do house calls in France still.

 

[Taurus]

I don't think it is fair to talk that a foreign grad is here to deprive the US grad of his/her job. It's a fair game, you set the rules and just because we are following them doesn't mean that we are hurting your livelihood. America is a land of immigrants, do you think when your forefathers came to this country, same thing happened. Instead of complaining about foreign workers, try to channel your energies to do something innovative.

IT outsourcing is a different ball game. There is a saying America's Business is "Business", every business wants to "maximize" profits, so they realized that it is cheaper for them to get their IT work done from elsewhere so that they can cut costs. The jobs that are outsourced are not the "core" design and or R&D jobs, it is still done here, it's only the "grunt" jobs that are outsourced.

Tomorrow, if they find a place to do manufacturing in Africa cheaper than in China, what do you think will happen?

Lol. Did you work in IT like I did for 6 years to be making those claims? Companies are outsourcing whatever can do done overseas at a cheaper cost, whether that's maintenance work, design, etc. It's happening in other fields like financials and legal too.

I agree that it's all about business and money. IT outsourcing and insourcing is about reducing costs. Pharm insourcing is about reducing costs. It's harder and harder to argue, with new schools opening, layoffs, etc, that a chain can't find a qualified pharm to hire.

What do you think that insourcing of pharms will do to pharm salaries and job prospects? If you increase supply, you will depress them. That's supply and demand from econ 101. Employers have more applicants to choose from. If you won't work for X dollars, the employer can find someone else who will. I'm making the assumption that insourced pharms will make the same as the prevailing wages, but that often times is not true either. I think most people here understand the fundamentals so don't bother denying the obvious.

The best solution to insourcing is at the congressional level. Congress has to put strong restrictions in place to protect US workers. Several congressmen like Senators Dodd and Grassley get this. That's why in the financial overhaul bills they put much stricter restrictions on when banks could hire foreign workers. Obama gets it too and he has talked about it several times. I'm hoping that Congress passes new regulations for H1-B visas to protect US workers soon.

I wouldn't be surprised either if someday they outsource pharm services like they have done with POWER. If you can do remote authorization of scripts in a different city, what's to prevent you from doing it in a different country?

 

[FarscapeGirl]

In academics, especially in the sciences, they have to bring foreign talent over. Otherwise, the system would collapse. American students aren't trained for scientific research nearly as well as foreign students, and most are so concerned with money that few want to take the lower salary you get in academia, even though you end up with much less student debt. The labs I've been in are about half US born and half foreign born.

I have issues with outsourcing, not only for what it does to America but because of what it does to foreign countries as well. Parts of India has had culture shock due to the effects of young people being hired for telemarketing and working in the night during America's days. I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run, as are the other countries.

US companies will do well for awhile with outsourcing, but eventually, there won't be Americans to buy all their services or junk. There's a reason Henry Ford paid his workers enough that they could themselves buy a car. We seem to have forgotten that. And the foreign countries will have another shock when the big companies figure out they can now get cheaper labor in some new country and leave.

To not depend on foreign labor, we need to both improve education and also regulate corporations. At the same time, I don't think we should completely eliminate bringing foreign workers here. While everyone says foreign workers work for less, I highly doubt that in the long run. When you first work at Microsoft and are used to a lower standard of living, $80,000 sounds like a lot. But if you find out that your co-worker is making $100,000 for the same work as you struggle to afford housing and childcare, I doubt you'd stand for it.

 

[Taurus]

When you first work at Microsoft and are used to a lower standard of living, $80,000 sounds like a lot. But if you find out that your co-worker is making $100,000 for the same work as you struggle to afford housing and childcare, I doubt you'd stand for it.

No, foreign workers won't cause trouble because of fear of being sent home. H1-B and other visas only allow you to stay here temporarily. They will work for lower wages, longer hours, and worse conditions because they're after the golden ticket -- the coveted green card that allows them to stay in this country permanently. Companies take advantage of foreign workers because of this too. I saw it frequently when I was in IT.

 

[MrBlue]

Mr.Blue,
I am a foreign graduate, and you just can't tell me, that foreign graduates are unqualified. Hey, it's a fair game. NABP set the rules for foreign graduates, and we follow(ed) them, and once our internship is done, we take NAPLEX and MPJE and pass just like the students who go to school in U.S.

It is not our fault if corporations hire us. Our skill level is comparable to students who go to school here. Communication is not a problem, personally I have taken a few communication classes in the local community college and made sure that there is NO flaw in my speaking ability with patients/customers, probably I have an accent, but am working on it too with an accent coach. Instead of trying to blame others, try to compete and may the best man/woman win.

On a side note You should read the book "The World is Flat" and am sure it will open your eyes.

Cactus, how do you know that you aren't less qualified? Did you go through a rigorous US school? Do you care to post what country/school/classes you took. Care to post your syllabus? Most foreign grads I have worked with readily tell me that their school wasn't that hard. Ask them how many hours they studied a night, and the answer might surprise you.

And don't expect to hide behind that joke of a test NAPLEX. Everyone passes the NAPLEX. Now if you had said that you passed the old California State Test that would be different. That was a real test. But no surprise that US grads had a much higher pass rate than foreign grads on that test. Could it be because US students have a more rigerous program? And that the US schools do a better job at weeding out unqualified candidates? Could it be that corporation lowered standards to help facilitate the increase in foregin grads?

That being said, I don't blame you at all. You did what you could to better your life and I would have done the same. I am not angry with you, and going after the foreigner is not what I am advocating. I am angry with corporations that have commoditized my profession.

There are foreign grads here defending their honor, and I understand that. But these are the same foregin grads that in five years will be complaining about job conditions and about how we didn't get a raise this year. Connect the dots! People have no idea what is coming down our way. With the huge increase in domestic schools,we could supply the country domestically.

 

[mass]

For every foreign pharmacist they hire, that's 1 less job for a US pharm. That's not a problem if there are plenty of jobs to go around. However, when the market is competitive like today and in the future for pharm, the trickle down effect of having foreign workers is lower wages and fewer job prospects. While it may not be politically correct to talk about it, that's the economic reality of foreign workers.

That is what has happened in the IT field because of outsourcing jobs to places like India or insourcing foreign workers who often work for lower wages. US-trained IT workers would be making higher salaries and have more jobs available if it wasn't for outsourcing and insourcing of cheap labor.

The cheap labour have as much as skill as the US graduates if not more and you wonder where racism and jealousy start.

 

[CopToEM]

I am a very diehard advocate of American jobs going to American citizens and those people living in this country to seek citizenship. What I'm not an advocate for is foreign students coming to the U.S. to go to college on a Visa and then going back to their home country. In my eyes, if our colleges are going to train you then you should contribute to the wellness of OUR country.

Then again, I'm an exclusionist as well... too much meddling in other countries.

Everything is being outsourced. My uncle, who lives in North Carolina tobacco country, works for Phillip Morris packaging cigarettes. He's done it for years and years. He's getting laid off. They are outsourcing his facility to China!

Pitiful.

 

[mass]

Is there any facts to prove the shortage is over within pharmacy in the US as in the UK recently 2 days back it was published that retail pharmacy shortage was over.

 

[mass]

I am a very diehard advocate of American jobs going to American citizens and those people living in this country to seek citizenship. What I'm not an advocate for is foreign students coming to the U.S. to go to college on a Visa and then going back to their home country. In my eyes, if our colleges are going to train you then you should contribute to the wellness of OUR country.

Then again, I'm an exclusionist as well... too much meddling in other countries.

Everything is being outsourced. My uncle, who lives in North Carolina tobacco country, works for Phillip Morris packaging cigarettes. He's done it for years and years. He's getting laid off. They are outsourcing his facility to China!

Pitiful.

Think people are more concerned about money rather than adding value to the country, money runs the world.

 

[Sparda29]

I don't want to offend anyone, but the foreign student who goes through all that process to emigrate to the United States is probably twice as smart, three times as hard-working, and infinitely more grateful to have a job than you or me. Why wouldn't a company want to hire someone like that, especially when they'll gladly work for a "pithy" $80K a year?

Definitely. A foreign student at our school is the one with the 4.0 GPA through first year.

 

[BanBidil]

Mr. Blue,
Lets talk about glamorous LA/OC. Yes, I am a Lakers and Clippers fan.

I AM from So. Cal - the oh so desirable west side to be exact and not wanna be Culver City either. There has always been a surplus here ,nothing new. You can still get a job in the Valley or Torrance if you want and enjoy the traffic. Even though I will be doing my rotations in LA (rotation site quality issue), and am regretting going back already. Im looking at 2 options, specialize or get out.

No more fat sign on bonuses for working at CVS. And yes, I will be another LA person to say it after moving out.. LA is OVERRATED and I don't really miss it. The only plus is perfect weather.
Lets start with the reasons NOT to be in LA:

1. Property values are a joke. They will be high for the next 20 years because there is a sucker born every minute to buy crap houses for $1.5 mil. Heck, most of the townhouse units for 2+ bedrooms on the westside run for at least $500,00 PLUS HOA fees around $500/ month.

2. If you don't have a car, you are screwed. If you do have a car and need to get to work, it will be at least an hour for 10 miles. I don't care what time of day it is, there will ALWAYS be traffic on the 405. Its called the 405 because you go 4 or 5 miles per hour after 3pm any day of the week. By the way your car better be a BMW, Benz , Porsche, Jag (best option since people don't know what they are really worth if you are trying to show off, the cars suck to drive) and within the last 3 years cause otherwise you will be considered a pauper

3. But But..... "There is stuff to do in LA"

I can watch a movie anywhere.
The Getty is nice but gets boring.
The malls are crowded with cars and people trying too hard to look oh so fabulous.
Try going to the Bev center, westside pav or promenade mall
on the weekend, you will see.

Parking tickets Galore, I get ticketed for every little thing there is and if it isn't fixed that day, the next morning for the same thing.

Any midsized city will have the restaurant diversity of LA.
Santa Monica beach is filthy and infested with bums, you need to go to Zuma
beach and if you want a nice beach.
Moonshadows is a nice spot but if you want to go to Malibu it will take at least an hour on the joke of a highway CPH where you can only go 50 in those rare times there is no traffic.

On "Clubbing"
Do you know people at the best clubs personally? because unless you do, you will end up standing in line with 50 other guys to pay a $20 cover to go in and buy drinks at about $12 each+ tip so thats around $13-$14. And thats the best clubs, not a hole in the wall like saddle ranch. What do you get? To look at maybe a couple of decent looking girls and a bunch of fat girls who I woduln't give the time of day who think they're great because so many guys are talking to them. You can't even talk to them because the music is so loud and if you go the balcony, people are smoking like chimneys.


I have to study, ill be back again after at least 10 more people commented on how ridiculous your concern about foreigners is, Xenophobia is common during hard economic times. Nothing is recession proof except death and taxes. Death more than taxes since governments may fall, but then again you'll be paying a tax to someone.....

 

[medicalCPA]

I read up to the middle, and realized I HATE THIS THREAD. If you are sure that the foreign pharmacists are "subpar," be a kick-ass pharmacist who is so far superior that it would be in any employer's interest to hire you.

Cream will always rise to the top, and whether it is foreign or native, it's still cream.

 

[MrBlue]

BandBil: I do agree that LA along with So.Cal in general is overrated. I plan to move soon. But that is not the point. So. Cal is only the beginning. The job market is getting tight all over. And yet we are flooding the market with people. If it were only So.Cal that was saturated then who cares. But this will spread over the rest of the country soon.

And what do I care what 10 more people say. These are probably foreign grads who aren't paying attention to my main point and are in denial, and people who are to politically correct to look at the issue at hand.

I can assure you it is not Xenophobia. There were many people from overseas in my school, and they were very smart and hardworking. Many wound up being top grads. I have nothing bad to say about these people. For these people to come to our country and go to our schools is good. But foreign schools are a different story. I could see allowing a limited amount when our domestic schools were few. But now that we have a bajillion schools, there is no need. Secondly, we should do away with our joke of a test NABLEX. For a foregin grad to say that they are a domestic grads equal because they took the same test is a joke, because the test is a joke!

 

[BanBidil]

I think I was a bit harsh in that last post. Sorry, I almost lost my lid, I forgot that some people have families and its harder to move :-(. IMHO, the reason for the shortage is more schools and the press glorifying pharmacy as being sooo great and recession proof with pressure from AMP cuts. Im not a fan of big pharma but if you like it, they're always hiring. Have you looked at fellowships? Do you go to conferences such as APha annual or NCPA (my fav ? You could work for Mckesson Bergin or cardinal health? Network. I am almost a P4 and have been getting my name out there when I can, network, talk to people and show off your strengths. Residency is an option if you like that sort of thing. Take a look at companies like Omnicare, they're a little different (more cognitive based). Most (and the best) jobs are not posted, networking is the best way to find them primo jobs, and no you don't have to kiss butt. Indian health services, the prison system and the Federal gov in general is ALWAYS hiring people. Alaska? If you like nature . Have you tried compounding with PCCA? I think we could both learn from each other. Please PM if you have question, I might have some info you could use..

 

[cactus124]

Cactus, how do you know that you aren't less qualified? Did you go through a rigorous US school? Do you care to post what country/school/classes you took. Care to post your syllabus? Most foreign grads I have worked with readily tell me that their school wasn't that hard. Ask them how many hours they studied a night, and the answer might surprise you.

And don't expect to hide behind that joke of a test NAPLEX. Everyone passes the NAPLEX. Now if you had said that you passed the old California State Test that would be different. That was a real test. But no surprise that US grads had a much higher pass rate than foreign grads on that test. Could it be because US students have a more rigerous program? And that the US schools do a better job at weeding out unqualified candidates? Could it be that corporation lowered standards to help facilitate the increase in foregin grads?

That being said, I don't blame you at all. You did what you could to better your life and I would have done the same. I am not angry with you, and going after the foreigner is not what I am advocating. I am angry with corporations that have commoditized my profession.

There are foreign grads here defending their honor, and I understand that. But these are the same foregin grads that in five years will be complaining about job conditions and about how we didn't get a raise this year. Connect the dots! People have no idea what is coming down our way. With the huge increase in domestic schools,we could supply the country domestically.

All I can tell you about my school, is that it is one of the most sought after school to get into where I come from. Also I went to school here to do my masters and I know how things work here, I am not boasting that I am good, but I rubbed shoulders with students and pharmacists from the top schools in the U.S. and there is no reason in the world that I should put myself down thinking that I got a sub-par education. I did not take the California Exam, but they changed the rules when it was my turn, so it is not my problem. About the California exam, you said, some foreign students passed too, so what does it tell you, there are some people who can match the standards of U.S. schools.

I understand that you are not blaming me, but you have to understand, it's all about the profit for corporations. If you look at the Operating Expenses (Op.Ex) of any company, the biggest chunk goes to employees salaries, so corporations try to come out of ways to cut the Op.Ex and you have to find a way to create a "niche" for yourself so that you can justify your pay and keep the job. If you don't want to deal with it go out on your own and start a business. How to do that is upto you. Now it is a "level" playing ground. Also corporations do hire foreign grads is because, no U.S. educated grads would like to work in those places (Like for E.g. Indio, Blythe etc..) so who is to blame here?

Now I have become a part of the system and yes, I will complain about the raise, but I will not blame foreign grads for it.

 

[OChemist]

Most foreign grads I have worked with readily tell me that their school wasn't that hard. Ask them how many hours they studied a night, and the answer might surprise you.

haha... not a lot, but they they juggle around with jobs and families, they are helping their kids and other things to have enough time to study. They study efficently, plus their education system is too different from the ones in the U.S.

 

[CopToEM]

Think people are more concerned about money rather than adding value to the country, money runs the world.

I agree. I think companies during this depression, pharmacies included, who are cutting jobs not to save themselves from bankruptcy but to increase their bottom lines during the economy should be penalized through taxes. Especially the ones who are outsourcing.

Just last year there was studies and data to show that the demand for pharmacists is still alive. I remember reading a study from economists who were suggesting that the salary for health care providers is going to increase significantly over the next 10 years. They were suggesting a possible salary increase from the $105,000.00/yr average to as high as $150,000.00/yr. for Pharmacists.


What I think is important to note here is that as the cost of living and the cost of health care continue to rise so must the salary given. Granted, it won't be providing a better standard of living, because it will just be inflating with everything else.

There's an article on SDN that talks about a government ran health care system, which we're on the brink of, and what it will mean for Pharmacists salaries. It stated that a European counter-part to an American doctor actually makes more on a government health care system. The other really good points it raises is that the workload of the pharmacist will decrease significantly because of a single-payer insurance plan.

It sucks foreigners are taking jobs from Americans but at the same time if we settle into a job we're satisfied with what does it matter in the long run? Future pharmacists will just have to adapt and compete to stand out in the crowd until reforms are brought.

 

[genesis09]

The foreign grads do have to go through a lot to get licensed in the U.S. Most do not succeed.

Remote verification laws in Illinois require that the pharmacist have a valid license from any state. Every state which has such a law does require the pharmacist to have an American license.

 

[cactus124]

Cream will always rise to the top, and whether it is foreign or native, it's still cream.

Well said and it's always true!! So let's move on.

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

and lets not even start on the fact that some don't pay taxes.

How so?

 

[confettiflyer]

Hell, they even do house calls in France still.

Considering how much you'd pay in taxes there, I'd expect a massage at the end. But seriously, this is going to be a work in progress over 10 years. Whatever is passed this/next year (if it happens) is going to be buggy as hell (think 1.0 of any software).

I'm just wondering where we can pull $1T out of since 'bama wants this thing dollar neutral. But I guess I wouldn't mind the higher taxes (gasp), health care providers would disproportionately benefit and, for self-serving reasons, I'm completely fine with that.

We basically need to couple cost control + health care coverage + tort reform (which I guess falls under cost) + private sector restructuring, I'm surprised this stuff is moving along at such a rapid clip in Congress, I'll be this is what the dems were putting together the past 8 years.

 

[Taurus]

That being said, I don't blame you at all. You did what you could to better your life and I would have done the same. I am not angry with you, and going after the foreigner is not what I am advocating. I am angry with corporations that have commoditized my profession.

There are foreign grads here defending their honor, and I understand that. But these are the same foregin grads that in five years will be complaining about job conditions and about how we didn't get a raise this year. Connect the dots! People have no idea what is coming down our way. With the huge increase in domestic schools,we could supply the country domestically.

I agree. People shouldn't blame any individuals for taking advantage of the opportunities given to them. If I were them, I would jump at the chance to come to this country too, even if it meant I would get lower prevailing wages, work longer hours, or put up with abusive managers and companies. I would do whatever it took to better my life.

The companies are the ones to blame. They're trying to increase their bottom lines at the sake of US workers. The solution is at the legislative level. It has taken nearly 10 years since the tech bubble burst but I sense that there is growing awareness in Congress on this issue and Obama supports it. I expect legislation to pass that will increase regulations on H1-B visas and others soon.

In fact, here's the latest info in the WSJ that will print tomorrow. Enjoy!

The focus for Mr. Premji and other officials from India's software industry is a U.S. Senate bill sponsored by Democrat Richard Durbin of Illinois and Republican Chuck Grassley of Iowa. The measure would introduce new restrictions on temporary visas known as H1-Bs, which are generally given to foreign workers in specialty fields like medicine, engineering, software, architecture and finance.

Those visas help U.S. companies such as Microsoft Corp. and Cisco Systems Inc. bring in needed engineering talent from overseas. But Indian companies, including Wipro, are among the biggest users of the H1-Bs. In fiscal 2008, large Indian firms were the top four H1-B recipients, with a combined 10,693 visa grants. Under the program, 65,000 H1-B visas are granted annually, plus another 20,000 for workers with an advanced degree from a U.S. university. Some visa grants, such as renewals, don't count toward the cap.

Messrs. Grassley and Durbin say foreign companies abuse the program by sending workers into the U.S. to do jobs that Americans would be capable of doing. They also say the foreign companies are effectively facilitating the transfer of U.S. jobs overseas by using their H1-B personnel to gather information at client sites that helps them carry out major outsourcing contracts abroad with their low-cost workers.

The most controversial provision in the Senate legislation would require companies with more than 50 workers in the U.S. to have no more than 50% of their staff on H1-B visas or L1-visas, which are for intracompany transfers from abroad.​

For those of you who don't see the problem with this issue, it's probably because you haven't been in the trenches and seen it first hand what it can do to an industry. Most of you are in school and never had a real job. In a few years when there is a surplus of pharms, you will see what MrBlue is talking about. Signing off.

 

[confettiflyer]

Foreign pharmacists are not the "main" reason for the surplus of pharmacists in Southern California. It's a part of the reason.

The reasons are

• Increase in pharmacist influx due to increase in class size and new schools.
• Slow down in opening of new pharmacies.
• Increased utilization of automation in prescription processing.
• Desirability of Southern California living.

Don't blame the foreigners and coporations.

Bingo. I work/worked in Southern California and the # of H1B pharmacists is still on the small side. The vast majority of new grads entering float pool for retail (CVS) are Western/SC graduates.

Speaking of, it's going to be EVEN WORSE before it gets better. CA unemployment #'s just hit 11.5% and I'm almost certain a huge swath of people are going to fall off state health coverage (caloptima, etc...) when the budget cuts are finally made. That's a ton of people that aren't coming in for Rx's, hiring freeze is already in effect for most stores in my district.

AND you're looking at Touro and UCSD that are pumping out their new grads now, luckily that stand alone school up north isn't graduating people until '12.

 

[PharmaTope]

nj/philly/de/ny is super saturated now as well. to the point that 75% of the graduating classes at the pharm schools do NOT have jobs.

all the people coming out of residency DO NOT have jobs. it is very very bad.

 

[confettiflyer]

nj/philly/de/ny is super saturated now as well. to the point that 75% of the graduating classes at the pharm schools do NOT have jobs.

all the people coming out of residency DO NOT have jobs. it is very very bad.

hmm don't know about that, then again all the PGY-1's I know went into PGY-2 within the same hospital (exception one in DE). All I know is...intern jobs are slim pickings, then again...I'm being picky, and supposedly retail stores in the 'burbs are still hiring interns.

However, UPenn (Methodist), Jefferson, and CHOP are looking for pharmacists...these are job listings as of yesterday.

 

[PharmaTope]

coming out of residency I am not even seeing positions available to even apply to for a 50 mile radius.

I am finding 75% of new PharmD graduates in the area are jobless. I cannot up my family and relocate right now either.

Wtf is up with this surplus! there are no jobs in retail, hospital, etc. per diem is a miracle if you can find it. east coast is not so hot right now.

 

[type b pharmD]

coming out of residency I am not even seeing positions available to even apply to for a 50 mile radius.

I am finding 75% of new PharmD graduates in the area are jobless. I cannot up my family and relocate right now either.

Wtf is up with this surplus! there are no jobs in retail, hospital, etc. per diem is a miracle if you can find it. east coast is not so hot right now.

Welcome to the recession.

I'll believe you when you can provide proof. 75% are jobless??

 

[PharmaTope]

hmm don't know about that, then again all the PGY-1's I know went into PGY-2 within the same hospital (exception one in DE). All I know is...intern jobs are slim pickings, then again...I'm being picky, and supposedly retail stores in the 'burbs are still hiring interns.

However, UPenn (Methodist), Jefferson, and CHOP are looking for pharmacists...these are job listings as of yesterday.

call the departments. a few of those you just listed had recent meetings where they said "we cannot guarantee layoffs won't happen" and aren't hiring.

 

[PharmaTope]

Welcome to the recession.

I'll believe you when you can provide proof. 75% are jobless??

number i got from faculty members at a local school. cant guarantee the number since i didnt speak to 100% of the class.

 

[Priapism321]

I cannot up my family and relocate right now either.

Whose fault is that? So, you are saying you would rather be unemployed than move to support your family financially? Please.

 

[PharmaTope]

Whose fault is that?

obama and whiteys fault

 

[StaviZFingerZ]

obama and whiteys fault

get real..

 

[njac]

where on the east coast are you?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

where on the east coast are you?

lmao...i know what youre thinkin...i think cm has had at least one position open since 1997...

 

[njac]

oh no, not here. we're looking for hem/onc right now though.

But it's interesting to see where these things are going down.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

coming out of residency I am not even seeing positions available to even apply to for a 50 mile radius.

I am finding 75% of new PharmD graduates in the area are jobless. I cannot up my family and relocate right now either.

Wtf is up with this surplus! there are no jobs in retail, hospital, etc. per diem is a miracle if you can find it. east coast is not so hot right now.

Do you happen to live in NJ?

 

[confettiflyer]

call the departments. a few of those you just listed had recent meetings where they said "we cannot guarantee layoffs won't happen" and aren't hiring.

makes sense, online listings always lag what's going on.

well goodluck, try relocating for a few years and come back when you've loaded up on more experience i guess?

 

[fenixtnlfan]

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