PharmD & JD

[pharmerjohn]

Does anyone know any PharmD/JD? What's your opinion on getting both degrees? I searched older threads, but I can't really find much info on this, and the ones that do have some info are nearly a decade old. Any input will be much appreciated.

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[zelman]

My friend is finishing law school in a few months. It seems like a good option to succeed as a lawyer in a niche area, but not to advance as a pharmacist.

 

[pharmerjohn]

My friend is finishing law school in a few months. It seems like a good option to succeed as a lawyer in a niche area, but not to advance as a pharmacist.

It would certainly be a niche, but I'm not sure how successful of a niche it is as there are so few with both degrees. Also, do you know what your friend is focusing on? I know one can go into intellectual properties law, patent law, malpractice, etc...

 

[zelman]

It would certainly be a niche, but I'm not sure how successful of a niche it is as there are so few with both degrees. Also, do you know what your friend is focusing on? I know one can go into intellectual properties law, patent law, malpractice, etc...

Patents/IP. Apparently she had her pick of employers: either drug developers for big bucks extending patents, or generic manufacturers with a clear conscience.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Patents/IP. Apparently she had her pick of employers: either drug developers for big bucks extending patents, or generic manufacturers with a clear conscience.

It's good to know that she has options and that she's not fighting for a single spot against 100 other applicants at a retail chain. I wonder if she felt it was worth it for all that extra schooling? If you could get her opinion, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[zelman]

Like I said, if you want to be a lawyer, it's great. If you want to be a pharmacist, it's not. I'll see if I can get her to post on here.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Like I said, if you want to be a lawyer, it's great. If you want to be a pharmacist, it's not. I'll see if I can get her to post on here.

Awesome. I'm greedy, I like both... Thanks for your insight!

 

[rxlea]

You could work at legal at the FDA, et al. Seems like a pretty sweet gig.

 

[RxQueen2010]

You could work at legal at the FDA, et al. Seems like a pretty sweet gig.

My preceptor at the FDA Office of Compliance was a JD/PharmD, as were many others in the office.

 

[rxlea]

My preceptor at the FDA Office of Compliance was a JD/PharmD, as were many others in the office.

Yep. Exactly. There are definitely options.

 

[pharmerjohn]

You could work at legal at the FDA, et al. Seems like a pretty sweet gig.

It does seem like a pretty sweet gig... Almost unicorn-like. However, that's from an outsider's perspective. I wonder what it's like from their perspective... Did they think it's worth it?

 

[rxlea]

Everyone I've spoken to seems pretty happy. Just sayin...

 

[pharmerjohn]

Thanks for your input. Didn't you pick up a MBA at U of A as well? If so, what are your thoughts on that?

 

[rxlea]

Thanks for your input. Didn't you pick up a MBA at U of A as well? If so, what are your thoughts on that?

Nope.

My thoughts on MBA or MA/MS: might be a good idea if you intend on pursuing management positions or going into health care admin or want to work within government organizations.

I opted for the PhD route.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Nope.

My thoughts on MBA or MA/MS: might be a good idea if you intend on pursuing management positions or going into health care admin or want to work within government organizations.

I opted for the PhD route.

I see. I knew I saw you mentioned somewhere on here that you're doing more than a PharmD - I just couldn't recall what the second degree was. Anyway, the reason I asked is because I wanted to see what your thoughts are in terms of workload, time/commitment, as well as the general idea of being in a of a dual degree program.

 

[rxlea]

I see. I knew I saw you mentioned somewhere on here that you're doing more than a PharmD - I just couldn't recall what the second degree was. Anyway, the reason I asked is because I wanted to see what your thoughts are in terms of workload, time/commitment, as well as the general idea of being in a of a dual degree program.

Well, workload is tough to say the least. Last year was pretty rough. But that's dual degree. I took 26 credits one semester and 23 the next. Plus I was working 20 hours a week. I don't recommend that lol

 

[pharmerjohn]

Well, workload is tough to say the least. Last year was pretty rough. But that's dual degree. I took 26 credits one semester and 23 the next. Plus I was working 20 hours a week. I don't recommend that lol

Thanks for sharing your perspective on juggling a dual degree.

 

[pharmlaw]

Awesome. I'm greedy, I like both... Thanks for your insight!

Alright, I'm here--soon to be PharmD/JD. To briefly answer the questions that have already been asked, yes I think it's a great combo, but kind of like zelman said, make sure you want to be a lawyer first! You'll be a lawyer with a background in pharmacy, not a pharmacist with legal credentials (unless you stay in pharmacy, but that makes no sense). If you like the field of pharmacy, but are more interested in a career in law, then it's a good gig.

I think all the extra schooling was worth it, however, the legal market is even more saturated than the pharmacy market. If you're going to go to law school, you have to be serious about it--take time to study and ace the LSAT and get into one of the top law schools. Grades and the school you go to are extremely more important than in pharmacy school. While I feel my background helped me out immensely (for many patent law jobs you cannot even apply if you do not have a bachelors in a science degree, and sometimes they require a doctorate), if I had gone to a worse school and/or did not have good grades, it's very possible I would not have found a job.

Related, I'm not sure where you're at in your schooling, but because the law school you go to is so important (and will forever be attached to your name), it may not be the best idea to rush through and get the PharmD/JD as a dual degree. Don't settle for a school because it has a joint program if the law school does not have a good reputation--you may end up just practicing pharmacy anyways. A couple of the better law schools offer part-time programs, so you can work as a pharmacist and receive your law degree in 3.5-4 years. Of course, it will take more time, but gaining work experience in pharmacy before shifting over to law can also help you find a better job as a lawyer.

There is definitely a niche market for the PharmD/JD. It's a rare combo since the PharmD is a professional degree, but there are plenty of PhDs and other scientific degrees in the legal field. In fact, in order to take the patent bar exam (not required for patent litigation--just patent prosecution--but it seems the majority of litigators are registered as well), you must have some type of degree in science. As such, the patent law field is full of engineers and scientists (so it's not as weird as you think to be a pharmacist working in law).

Look up Hatch-Waxman litigation--this is a type of patent litigation that is closely tied to the FDA. In my opinion, this is the best niche for a PharmD/JD. You could also practice FDA law, biotech or general patent law, draft PBM contracts, prosecute patent applications, etc. There are a lot of options and your background will really help to market yourself in these areas.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Sparda29]

I know 2 really smart professors who are both PharmD and JD. I haven't seen one of them since my LIU days, but I believe he taught some classes and was also working at a pharmacy.

The other professor is a clinical manager at the pediatric hospital I'm going to, works at Touro for the pharmacy law classes and is an associate at a law firm too.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Alright, I'm here--soon to be PharmD/JD. To briefly answer the questions that have already been asked, yes I think it's a great combo, but kind of like zelman said, make sure you want to be a lawyer first! You'll be a lawyer with a background in pharmacy, not a pharmacist with legal credentials (unless you stay in pharmacy, but that makes no sense). If you like the field of pharmacy, but are more interested in a career in law, then it's a good gig.

I think all the extra schooling was worth it, however, the legal market is even more saturated than the pharmacy market. If you're going to go to law school, you have to be serious about it--take time to study and ace the LSAT and get into one of the top law schools. Grades and the school you go to are extremely more important than in pharmacy school. While I feel my background helped me out immensely (for many patent law jobs you cannot even apply if you do not have a bachelors in a science degree, and sometimes they require a doctorate), if I had gone to a worse school and/or did not have good grades, it's very possible I would not have found a job.

Related, I'm not sure where you're at in your schooling, but because the law school you go to is so important (and will forever be attached to your name), it may not be the best idea to rush through and get the PharmD/JD as a dual degree. Don't settle for a school because it has a joint program if the law school does not have a good reputation--you may end up just practicing pharmacy anyways. A couple of the better law schools offer part-time programs, so you can work as a pharmacist and receive your law degree in 3.5-4 years. Of course, it will take more time, but gaining work experience in pharmacy before shifting over to law can also help you find a better job as a lawyer.

There is definitely a niche market for the PharmD/JD. It's a rare combo since the PharmD is a professional degree, but there are plenty of PhDs and other scientific degrees in the legal field. In fact, in order to take the patent bar exam (not required for patent litigation--just patent prosecution--but it seems the majority of litigators are registered as well), you must have some type of degree in science. As such, the patent law field is full of engineers and scientists (so it's not as weird as you think to be a pharmacist working in law).

Look up Hatch-Waxman litigation--this is a type of patent litigation that is closely tied to the FDA. In my opinion, this is the best niche for a PharmD/JD. You could also practice FDA law, biotech or general patent law, draft PBM contracts, prosecute patent applications, etc. There are a lot of options and your background will really help to market yourself in these areas.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks so much for your response! I really appreciate the insight that you’ve provided. I originally thought about going into law, but seeing how saturated the market was, I decided to let my science side take over and applied to pharmacy school instead. I know - it’s not much better with pharmacy, but I have been working in pharmacy for a few years now, so I have more experience and better grasp of the level of competition than I do with law.

The reason I originally posted this thread is because I’m at a crossroad in deciding between a 3-year PharmD program from Midwestern University, or a possible 6-year PharmD/JD program at University of Maryland. With the understanding that law is tiered and where one goes to school will make a huge difference in the job market (although I’ve also read that high regional reputation could also make a difference), it makes me wonder how competitive I’ll be with Maryland being ranked 41 in a region that’s highly competitive. After reading your response, weighing the costs of attendance and potential opportunity costs, I think going with the 3-year PharmD program and then doing a part-time JD program would be more cost-effective. Also, if you don’t mind me asking, did you do your PharmD and JD in a joint or separate program? And if it's separate, do you feel that it was more effective for you to do both programs separately?

Thanks again for your extremly helpful post, and I appreciate you pointing out the different aspects of law that a PharmD/JD can find a niche in. You’ve certainly given me a lot to think about prior to making my decisions.

 

[Klueril]

Great thread and info, keep it going

 

[zelman]

Thanks so much for your response! I really appreciate the insight that you’ve provided. I originally thought about going into law, but seeing how saturated the market was, I decided to let my science side take over and applied to pharmacy school instead. I know - it’s not much better with pharmacy, but I have been working in pharmacy for a few years now, so I have more experience and better grasp of the level of competition than I do with law.

The reason I originally posted this thread is because I’m at a crossroad in deciding between a 3-year PharmD program from Midwestern University, or a possible 6-year PharmD/JD program at University of Maryland. With the understanding that law is tiered and where one goes to school will make a huge difference in the job market (although I’ve also read that high regional reputation could also make a difference), it makes me wonder how competitive I’ll be with Maryland being ranked 41 in a region that’s highly competitive. After reading your response, weighing the costs of attendance and potential opportunity costs, I think going with the 3-year PharmD program and then doing a part-time JD program would be more cost-effective. Also, if you don’t mind me asking, did you do your PharmD and JD in a joint or separate program? And if it's separate, do you feel that it was more effective for you to do both programs separately?

Thanks again for your extremly helpful post, and I appreciate you pointing out the different aspects of law that a PharmD/JD can find a niche in. You’ve certainly given me a lot to think about prior to making my decisions.

I don't know how active she's going to be on here, so I'll answer what I can. PharmD was a 6 year program, followed by law school elsewhere (prestigious school). I'd say the separate schools worked well for her. She was super-involved in pharmacy school (student government president, pharmacy fraternity, leadership organizations, resident assistant, etc) which would not have been possible if the course load was increased to do both majors. Also, once she was in law school, having a retail pharmacy gig was a pretty good way to make a great hourly wage as a student, and it doesn't involve taking work home. With the emphasis on which law school you graduate from, I'd be inclined to say doing the programs separately are the way to go (unless you want to be a slacker in pharmacy school and hurt your chances of getting into a program afterward, then get in early and slack away).

 

[Klueril]

How about the debt load? Good Law schools seems like they can be expensive....will it be worth it financially?

 

[pharmerjohn]

I don't know how active she's going to be on here, so I'll answer what I can. PharmD was a 6 year program, followed by law school elsewhere (prestigious school). I'd say the separate schools worked well for her. She was super-involved in pharmacy school (student government president, pharmacy fraternity, leadership organizations, resident assistant, etc) which would not have been possible if the course load was increased to do both majors. Also, once she was in law school, having a retail pharmacy gig was a pretty good way to make a great hourly wage as a student, and it doesn't involve taking work home. With the emphasis on which law school you graduate from, I'd be inclined to say doing the programs separately are the way to go (unless you want to be a slacker in pharmacy school and hurt your chances of getting into a program afterward, then get in early and slack away).

Thanks for your response and for the info. From what I gathered, doing the programs separately doesn’t seem too bad. Since I’ll be going to a 3-year PharmD program, the amount of time would be about the same for either route. In fact, I will most likely be cutting down on the overall costs of getting both degrees by doing them separately. I will give it my best in pharmacy school and will go from there. Thanks again for your inputs. You’ve been a tremendous help!

 

[pharmerjohn]

How about the debt load? Good Law schools seems like they can be expensive....will it be worth it financially?

From what I gathered, top tier law schools do cost quite a bit more. But in a field where your alma mater is what pretty much defines you wherever you go, it’s probably a good idea to pay the extra costs. However, I think it’s only worth it if it will provide you with the joy and job satisfaction you’re looking for. If you’re doing all that with the expectation of huge financial returns, then I’d say it’s probably not worth the costs.

 

[pharmlaw]

How about the debt load? Good Law schools seems like they can be expensive....will it be worth it financially?

Law school is very expensive. If you're flexible with where you attend, many of the top schools give out significant scholarships to applicants with strong credentials--another reason to ace the LSAT. I think it can financially still be worth it even without a scholarship, as long as you want to work at a law firm (though I should also clarify that if you do poorly in law school and/or interview poorly, you may not be able to find a law firm job). Among the bigger cities/markets, firm salaries are pretty similar across the board. Take Fish & Richardson for example (one of the many firms that have a patent litigation practice)--you can see here that unlike pharmacists, lawyers actually get real raises each year! If you get a job at a firm like this, you'll be making twice the salary of a pharmacist by year 4. Granted, this is something to carefully think about--if you don't think you can cut it working law firm hours/don't want to work at a law firm for more than a couple years/would rather work in a different field, it probably does not make financial sense to attend law school after the PharmD.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I know four people that have this combination - my college was one of the first of offer it. Three work in a hospital and do not use their JD degree - the fourth - well I lost contact with him, but right out of school he was working at Walgreens. Obviously none of these four were using their JD part of their program. Is this the norm? I don't know. One of the guys was older (ie mid 50's - not one of my classmates) - he used to work on the side as a lawyer- doing wills, etc. But said he made more money just moonlighting as a pharmacist. I am sure there are good combo type jobs out there, but likely they would require move to either DC or big pharma.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Law school is very expensive. If you're flexible with where you attend, many of the top schools give out significant scholarships to applicants with strong credentials--another reason to ace the LSAT. I think it can financially still be worth it even without a scholarship, as long as you want to work at a law firm (though I should also clarify that if you do poorly in law school and/or interview poorly, you may not be able to find a law firm job). Among the bigger cities/markets, firm salaries are pretty similar across the board. Take Fish & Richardson for example (one of the many firms that have a patent litigation practice)--you can see here that unlike pharmacists, lawyers actually get real raises each year! If you get a job at a firm like this, you'll be making twice the salary of a pharmacist by year 4. Granted, this is something to carefully think about--if you don't think you can cut it working law firm hours/don't want to work at a law firm for more than a couple years/would rather work in a different field, it probably does not make financial sense to attend law school after the PharmD.

Besides attending a top tier law school and getting good grades, is there anything else that you would recommend us do to get attention from major law firms? I have a family friend who went to Chicago, but still has a difficult time landing a position at major law firms.

 

[pharmerjohn]

I know four people that have this combination - my college was one of the first of offer it. Three work in a hospital and do not use their JD degree - the fourth - well I lost contact with him, but right out of school he was working at Walgreens. Obviously none of these four were using their JD part of their program. Is this the norm? I don't know. One of the guys was older (ie mid 50's - not one of my classmates) - he used to work on the side as a lawyer- doing wills, etc. But said he made more money just moonlighting as a pharmacist. I am sure there are good combo type jobs out there, but likely they would require move to either DC or big pharma.

Is the school a top 50 for law? From what I gathered, many law firms look for people who graduate from T14 schools, so many people who graduate outside of that will face steep competition in trying to land a coveted position. Also, were they willing to relocate?

 

[Dred Pirate]

Is the school a top 50 for law? From what I gathered, many law firms look for people who graduate from T14 schools, so many people who graduate outside of that will face steep competition in trying to land a coveted position. Also, were they willing to relocate?

honestly have no idea - I don't really pay attention to law school rankings - but I seriously doubt it. I never talked to them why they did why they did

 

[pharmerjohn]

honestly have no idea - I don't really pay attention to law school rankings - but I seriously doubt it. I never talked to them why they did why they did

I see. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I really appreciate it!

 

[Jibby321]

To the OP: you are gonna be so sick of school after Pharm.D program. Haha

 

[pharmerjohn]

To the OP: you are gonna be so sick of school after Pharm.D program. Haha

I probably will be sick of being in pharmacy school by then, but I won't be sick of learning in general. Since a JD is going to be a much different field of study than a PharmD, I think it'll be a good change of pace and I'll enjoy it. This may sound crazy, but if I could go to school and get paid a good wage for doing it, I'd probably go to school forever. haha...

 

[Whereismynorco]

does school has to be T14 or even T50 would be enough to land a good paying job as a lawyer considering you have a PharmD??
Also, lets say you somehow you get into T14 school but weren't the brightest student in class and couldn't keep up with the pace due to family/personal issue/job or whatever it might me, is it still possible to land a good paying job ?? or every employer is looking for only top students from T14 ???

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Better to do the PharmD first, THEN do the JD at a top 14 law school.

REASON: Top 14 university-law schools don't have affiliations with pharmacy schools. Since you will most likely be a lawyer first, the reputation of your law school will carry great weight when it comes to looking for employment at firms, FDA, etc. As far as I know, the programs that offer a DUAL PharmD/JD are:

1) University of Maryland - this school is close in location to the FDA (Washington, DC), so this might be the best school to partake in such an undertaking and expensive workload.
2) University of Florida
3) State University of New York: Buffalo
4) University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill

Also, keep in mind you WILL be competing with other PhD's specialized in biotechnology, biology, chemistry, etc. Their line of work is definitely more rigorous (academically/intellectually) than the line of work it takes to obtain the PharmD, so keep that in mind.

 

[Whereismynorco]

I already graduated with PharmD and working for retail for almost four year now but I dont have good GPA ~3.00 so getting into T14 law school is gonna be little hard although I have yet to take LSAT but still even if I get 165+. So the chance of getting into T50 would be more realistic.