PharmD vs DPT/OTD

[texas110477]

Why does a pharmacist make so much more coming out of school than a physical therapist? PT's have a doctorate degree as well?

Pharmacists that just graduated could earn between $100,000-$120,000 working retail. Is that fair?

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[JESUITM]

Why does a pharmacist make so much more coming out of school than a physical therapist? PT's have a doctorate degree as well?

Pharmacists that just graduated could earn between $100,000-$120,000 working retail. Is that fair?

Here is my opinion....

There is more demand for pharmacists, so they make more $ than they used to. After the explosion of Walgreens and CVS on every corner, all of a sudden there was a need for 2-4 staffed pharmacists per store. (depending on shifts / work load). So this created a huge and steady demand (and will continue until pharmacies slow down new openings). And thus meant many new schools were opening because they are cash-cows. Adding the new clinical doctorate (PharmD) didn't help supply issues of pharmacists. (Yes I realize pharmacy schools are opening by the dozens and produce many per year). But requiring a bachelors one year and later a doctorate, does change the game a little.

Becoming a pharmacist could have been accomplished with a bachelor’s degree, now you need a clinical doctorate (yes, I know there are 3+4 programs out there and some may not require a BA/BS--I‘m mean generally). As far as Walgreens/CVS goes, they don't care if you have a doctorate vs. a BSPharm.and neither do most hospitals as long as you have a license to verify scripts / fill bottles.

In my opinion, this will slowly happen to PT. If you want to become a PT now, your only option is the entry-level DPT (with a few Masters programs out there that are slowly converting to the DPT). Just like if you want to become a pharmacist now, your only option is a PharmD. This may sway many potentially outstanding PTs and Pharmacists from pursuing a career path in these fields as they now require many more years than they did before. I believe this will limit the people willing to do these professions because of the extra work (undergrad degree + pre-reqs + PCAT-GRE-MCAT-OAT-etc + recommendations + essays + observation hours +...etc) than did from bachelor programs, thus less flooding the market. And thus, starting pay will start to increase.

So back to your question OP...Just wait a a few years…. I think salaries will start to increase. 1) Will be less graduates now that you have to get a DPT, , 2) DIRECT ACCESS (you don't need a referral from a physician...patients can just go see one like an optometrist or chiro, 2) Technology--more prosthetics / orthotics / etc are being invented and becoming the norm with disabled patients...PTs will be required help prescribe / fit / train patient with new devices, 4) Patient awareness of non-surgical treatment to help problems, 5) Aging population will be needing the help and assistance of PTs, 6) chronic health issues (diabetes) and how they relate to PT, 7) more active populations = more injuries = more PT assistance.

There are a few of my thoughts. Feel free to reply and share your ideas.
Just look at this PT/OT job board. It’s not very active since the DPT/ODT programs are so new to the profession. People who were interested in PT / OT don’t even realize SDN exists or is a resource.

 

[songaila]

I disagree to some extent. First of all, PTs don't have CVS and target stores to increase the demand for the "salaried positions". Yes, you can open your own and make the same as pharmacists. That is not the point. The point is that because of the competition, pharmaicsts will always get higher salary.

Shortage doesn't necessarily equals more money in terms of salary. PT reimbursements have been down. Cuts across the board for all services. You can have a huge shortage. Just look at Family practice doctors. Trust me, they have enough demand. Their salary has been flat because of the reimbursements.

I do agree will always have a job indeed. However, AVERAGE salary is not even close.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

Although pharmacists are considered salaried by most companies, they get paid hourly. 100-120k is only for a 40 hour work week. The more you work, the more you get paid. I am looking at 180k with bonus and i am not even 24 yet.

 

[Dr Feel Good]

Remember that at the current state of our health care, Medicinal companies are the high rollers. Astra-zeneca, pfizer, Merck; they all have their hand in the cookie jar, so pharmacists will always be a hot commodity simply for the medicinal addiction that the U.S. has.

 

[weasel99]

In terms of absolute earning power, and if that is your major criteria, by all means go into PharmD.

But I would warn you to the winds of change in the fields of medicine - I think there will be a stronger push toward effective therapies as evidence continues to compile on the excessive and often times inappropriate use of pharmacological agents and the under utilization and strong effect sizes of conservative physical therapy interventions such as manual therapy and specific exercises in many populations.

Not to say that pharmacists need to beware, but there may be some tailing off of the high demand and only expect that physical therapy will continue to grow in the next half century.

As an aside, my take home 5 years out of grad school in a low-paying area will be around 70,000 this year + bonuses (2K) and con ed(1k) for simply being good at what I do; new grads are right around 50, and I've seen near 60 in a suburban setting. So chin up!

Wes

 

[bipolardoc]

In terms of absolute earning power, and if that is your major criteria, by all means go into PharmD.

But I would warn you to the winds of change in the fields of medicine - I think there will be a stronger push toward effective therapies as evidence continues to compile on the excessive and often times inappropriate use of pharmacological agents and the under utilization and strong effect sizes of conservative physical therapy interventions such as manual therapy and specific exercises in many populations.

Not to say that pharmacists need to beware, but there may be some tailing off of the high demand and only expect that physical therapy will continue to grow in the next half century.

As an aside, my take home 5 years out of grad school in a low-paying area will be around 70,000 this year + bonuses (2K) and con ed(1k) for simply being good at what I do; new grads are right around 50, and I've seen near 60 in a suburban setting. So chin up!

Wes

what degree/job do you have.

 

[pttrac]

I think he is a PT

 

[pharmwannebe2]

Why does a pharmacist make so much more coming out of school than a physical therapist? PT's have a doctorate degree as well?

Pharmacists that just graduated could earn between $100,000-$120,000 working retail. Is that fair?

why does this have to be about Pharmacists. Other doctors make more money than DPT too.


I think this is more than fair.

 

[bigdan]

From the outside looking in, I'd say you can pay retail pharmacists so much because the companies they work for sell drugs that cost a bunch and they sell so many of them. Hourly, the PharmD in retail can be pushing drugs literally as fast as the people can bring in/call in the prescriptions. The salary-driver here is revenue, and we're a society that wants a pill to cure everything/anything...and on a slow day at the "drug store", there's always sales of tampons and Doritos to help spread the wealth.

The DPT is limited by billing (by which I mean revenue collection). As long as a DPT collects from an insurance company, there will be a set ceiling rate for what can be collected, and many insurance companies limit the number of patients you can (legally) see at one time. If the DPT works as an employee, it's tough to pay that person $120,000 if he's not generating all that much revenue.

Perhaps most importantly to the OP's final question, life's not fair.

dc

 

[truthseeker]

Why does a pharmacist make so much more coming out of school than a physical therapist? PT's have a doctorate degree as well?

Pharmacists that just graduated could earn between $100,000-$120,000 working retail. Is that fair?

Someone with a Doctorate in history makes less as well. Life is not fair. is it fair that CC Sabathia makes gazilliions of $$ because he can throw a good fastball and some nurse saves someone's life by doing CPR gets paid $20 per hour? No, but lots of people can do CPR and not many can throw 90mph fastball and put it where they want. You get paid what the market will bear. More people need meds (or think they do) than need stretching (or they think they do) Point is, there will be a higher demand for pharm because the committment by the patient is so much less.

 

[DHV]

Although pharmacists are considered salaried by most companies, they get paid hourly. 100-120k is only for a 40 hour work week. The more you work, the more you get paid. I am looking at 180k with bonus and i am not even 24 yet.

isn't it true that the salary of pharmacists are capped at a certain point though? besides your annual salary raise, there really is little to no promotions or higher level of responsibilities?

 

[PTbecomingDDS]

isn't it true that the salary of pharmacists are capped at a certain point though? besides your annual salary raise, there really is little to no promotions or higher level of responsibilities?

My friend is a pharm with Walgreens. He has no cap on his salary. He is also single and works at multiple Walgreens during all times during the day. He even gets paid (time and a half at his rate!) to just drive 3 hours to a pharmacy in need of a pharmacist...you do the math...6 hours on the road and 6-8 hours working all at an overtime rate equals some good cash in your pocket. The only thing a PT can do is work at a local nursing home performing evals for mayby $45-55 per hour to add additional income on top of their salary.

Doctorate does not necessarily equal the big bucks. As a former PT director, I always had a difficult time with recent DPT graduates and their unrealistic expectations (high salary fresh out of school - "but I am a doctor!", continuing ed money, 3-4 weeks off etc.) during the hiring process. If money or what I like to refer as being financially stable is a priority (not much when you are young but more of concern when you have family), you should research not just the profession but the pay in areas you would like to end up living. Some areas have great pay for PT's while more popular areas do not due to a high level of competition and/or poor reimbursement. If you are a student or just got accepted, start contacting your local politician about the importance of PT and how medicare reimbursement is affecting the care of the local community as medicare always sets the gold standard for reimbursement of other insurers.

just my two cents.

 

[PTbecomingDDS]

isn't it true that the salary of pharmacists are capped at a certain point though? besides your annual salary raise, there really is little to no promotions or higher level of responsibilities?

Oh I forgot to mention, yes, you can get promotions in a retail company if you are a pharmacist...the CEO of CVS (know his daughter) is a former pharmacist

 

[FLsurferDPT]

This topic has been really on my mind after all the talk about the uncertainty of the PT profession. Does any one else think it would be smarter to get a PharmD degree over a DPT? I've got accepted to 3 pt schools but am now thinking it might be worth it to take a year off, finishing taking o'chem (I took o'chem 1 and lab and got A's in both), take the PCAT and become a pharmacist??

 

[FLsurferDPT]

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[seminolefish]

All I have to say to this topic is wow. All of you are talking out of your butts. You should do what YOU want to do despite the salary. Do you really think making $120K a year being a pharmD and hating it (vs. making 70K a year being a DPT and loving it) is worth the cash? As a pharm tech in the retail setting I personally hated doing it (because it was a factory) and watched the pharmD's work and knew it sucked. In PT you get patient interaction the whole time instead of filling their drugs and handing it to them. In actuality, there is so much potential for a DPT to make 70-120K you just have to actually use your brain to find the jobs. Are you wiling to live in a rural area? Maybe do traveling? I'm interested in both so making 100K is NOT out of the picture!

For me, I picked PT because I actually like the atmosphere and the job itself. Yes salary does play a part but a smaller one. If I was making 30K a year then I would shoot for something else because I would be in debt my whole life. There is a fine line between greedy and living comfortably. You can live comfortably off of 70K a year! If you can't you're just freakin greedy.

Basically, if you can live comfortably, you should pick what YOU want to do. That'll make you the most happiest not the extra cash. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. You guys have heard this over and over again I hope. If you love PT or pharmD because of the job, then DON'T second guess yourself because of "money"...

 

[seminolefish]

It's not a coincidence FLsurferDPT. The pharmacists I worked with expressed the same concerns and they worked for Publix. Some may really like that atmosphere though as did some of the other techs I worked with.

 

[Danae00]

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[lee9786]

I agree you don't want to make decisions based primarily on salary. You will be spending a whole lot of your time in your chosen occupation so you want to enjoy what you are doing. With as much money and time that goes into the process, you want to know what you are getting yourself into.

It looks like to me that there is a whole lot of change coming to the PT profession. One big change looks to be the payment structure. How will the payment structure be set up differently in 2020 than it is in 2010? It seems to me there has to be some change because of Medicare's current state of insolvency. Will this be a positive or negative change though? Currently it looks like the PT profession is on its heals playing defense against medicare and reimbursement cuts. How will medicare be reformed and where will PT fare in the reformation process?

Another change I see is in the practice of PT. Something tells me you won't see too many ultrasound machines around ten years from now. I think the trend looks to the PTAs and PT techs providing most of the treatment while the PTs move to a more supervisory role as the system attempts to reign in costs. It also looks as if there will be increased regulations and restrictions on providers as Medicare looks to increasing policing of healthcare providers which will increase documentation even more than the current system.

I think there is a need for PTs to become more politically involved then in the past. The APTA is seen by many therapists as an organization that lacks effectiveness. Some will state that it is more reactive as opposed to proactive. Some believe they aren't focusing on key issues that are pertinent to the practice of PT. Some will claim the organization is run by idealists that are disconnected with the realities of the clinical world. I can see where they are coming from in some cases. A good example would be the medicare caps. It was well known that these would be implemented upon the new year, but here it is now in March and there is a pleading to repeal the cap. So there is an apparent need for individual PTs to get involved politically to help advance their profession. There will be political competition all fighting for more of the reimbursement pie. They will be the Chiropracters, Massage Therapists, and Athletic Trainers.

As for the number of schools, all healthcare professions are increasing the number in attempts to meet the increased demand for health services. The one glaring fact is the large number of baby boomers that are going to need healthcare. That point is clear but how to pay for their services is not as certain. This country will put medicine and pharmacy as the priority and rehabilitation will be secondary.

You want to do what you can see yourself enjoying. That is the priority. You want to know what you are getting yourself into though. There is a level of faith that is required going into the process. I understand the anxiety completely.

 

[FLsurferDPT]

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[ksiem]

FLsurfer, what are your sources that have claimed that the pharmacy market is going to be saturated by 2012. I don't think the Bls.Gov OCO (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm) says the same thing. In addition, you all are viewing pharmacy in a very narrow perspective. RETAIL is probably the worst pharmacy setting ever. You are like a tool who just has to fill prescriptions as fast as possible. It's almost like fast food and border line unethical if you think about America's dependence on pills and not exercise or healthy eating.

I have spoken to several pharmacists that LOVE their job. However, they all work at hospitals. There are rewarding environments for almost every profession and a pharmacist's rewarding environment is probably in a hospital/clinical setting. That's not to say some don't like retail, but I bet they get their joy more from the making money then everything else (or the few pharmacys that there is more client interaction).

 

[ksiem]

Also, prescriptions do have their place... and that is very evident in acute care where you may die without one.

 

[lee9786]

The whole point is not picking pharmacy because I will love it. It is to pick it so that I would have money to support a family and myself. Work is work, you aren't always supposed to be happy doing it. If I wanted to pick a job based on something that would make me happy I would be a life guard at a beach. However, they are paid hardly anything. The profession of physical therapy is awesome, you get to help people and be some one who encourages and makes a big difference in another persons life. However, spending seven years to get a doctorate and invest thousands of dollars into an education when this country puts rehabilitation as a secondary priority is upsetting when they would more easily go for the "quick fix" from a pill or surgery. After being a nutrition major for a couple years I've learned that most of the diseases that we die from are preventable (ie heart disease, stroke, diabetes). I'm most frustrated by the fact that Americans care more about quick fixes then actually about prevention such as exercising, eating healthy, de-stressing.

I realize that I could not be a pharmacist because I would not feel right dispensing so much medication to people when there are more alternative ways to get better. Why does everyone think popping an aspirin will make everything better. Take a microbiology class, the human body has a whole line of defense to help you. Anyways I know this is going on a tangent but my main point is that I do know that money doesn't buy you happiness and I do love human anatomy and physiology and everything physical therapist do (that is why I am deciding to become a PT) but it is just frustrating that people continue to not recognize how great of a service physical therapy is and to keep cutting back reimbursement amount is frustrating.

I understand what your saying completely. My background is in nutrition as well and see the clear cut disparity between effective healthcare and the priorities in this country. The system is poor in dealing with prevention. The good news is that there is massive amounts of research supporting prevention as a clear cut strategy to decrease healthcare costs.

PTs could play a key role in prevention. For instance just a moderate weight reduction in diabetic patients decreases their insulin resistance resulting in a more favorable blood sugar profile. Maybe the incidence of the costly dialysis treatment, amputations, eye laser treatments etc can be prevented resulting in an effective as opposed to disabled worker. Our current system depends on a lecture to the patient that falls on deaf ears half the time. What we get is a progressive decline and monthly visits to the wound care clinic. What about a collaborative effort between dietitians and PTs to formulate a weight loss regimen in which is required prior to other intervention and focuses on measurable sustainable weight loss? Seems like it makes sense to me. If this system was deemed effective, would it save the insurance industry money? My guess is that it would and see an opportunity. The problem is nothing is going to change if people don't try to change it.

As with you FLsurferDPT, I see the clear cut value that the PT profession offers to society. I really think people should be getting into this profession with the same core values. People need to be agents for change. It seems to me if they don't, they will progressively decline along with their respective CPT codes and eventually become a mere dot on the spectrum holding up their DPT degrees. Maybe the APTA should be consulting with the ADA and attempt to formulation a plan to implement the aformentioned idea.

Medication is revolutionary to medicine and necessary, but it is way overutilized in this country. Chemical dependency is a huge problem. It is also expensive. Meanwhile PT is inexpensive treatment which could decrease the utilization of medication and provide long-term effective treatment. The problem is big pharm is big business in this broken healthcare system and has great political influence. So thus the beast keeps fed and continues bankrupting this country resulting in poor healthcare delivery.

 

[seminolefish]

That was a very insightful post there lee9786. I definitely have thought about it like you have and it drives me crazy. An idea I've had when seeing a patient is to teach about preventatives. I feel that is the best and most efficient way to save the country money in the long run but importantly their lives. Unfortunately, big pharm is big business though and it will be tough to fight that. However, I'm going to do my part to teach patients all about preventatives, exercises, health...you know, "the works".

 

[changingcareers]

If you ever have doubts about PT but you still want to work in a similar field, you can try OT. As an OT, I feel that we are more "flexible." There are so many fields where we can work. So if you get bored with one setting, then you can change settings. We can work in a hospital, nursing home, rehab facility, school, workplace (ergonomics), research and even psychiatry/mental health. Just a suggestion.

About pharmacy, you do earn more but I think you have more liability issues.

 

[lee9786]

If you ever have doubts about PT but you still want to work in a similar field, you can try OT. As an OT, I feel that we are more "flexible." There are so many fields where we can work. So if you get bored with one setting, then you can change settings. We can work in a hospital, nursing home, rehab facility, school, workplace (ergonomics), research and even psychiatry/mental health. Just a suggestion.

About pharmacy, you do earn more but I think you have more liability issues.

OT and PT are intimately intertwined. They are both subjected to CPT codes and medicare caps/cuts. Most likely if rehabilitation dies with Medicare then both OT and PT will be affected equally. As for settings, PTs pretty much work in all those settings as well. I'd suggest picking one or the other based upon what role you like better.

 

[tiffster011]

All I have to say to this topic is wow. All of you are talking out of your butts. You should do what YOU want to do despite the salary. Do you really think making $120K a year being a pharmD and hating it (vs. making 70K a year being a DPT and loving it) is worth the cash? As a pharm tech in the retail setting I personally hated doing it (because it was a factory) and watched the pharmD's work and knew it sucked. In PT you get patient interaction the whole time instead of filling their drugs and handing it to them. In actuality, there is so much potential for a DPT to make 70-120K you just have to actually use your brain to find the jobs. Are you wiling to live in a rural area? Maybe do traveling? I'm interested in both so making 100K is NOT out of the picture!

For me, I picked PT because I actually like the atmosphere and the job itself. Yes salary does play a part but a smaller one. If I was making 30K a year then I would shoot for something else because I would be in debt my whole life. There is a fine line between greedy and living comfortably. You can live comfortably off of 70K a year! If you can't you're just freakin greedy.

Basically, if you can live comfortably, you should pick what YOU want to do. That'll make you the most happiest not the extra cash. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. You guys have heard this over and over again I hope. If you love PT or pharmD because of the job, then DON'T second guess yourself because of "money"...

I agree completely... Do what you love, stop chasing the money!

 

[medical geek5]

lee 9786:you are so totally awesome in giving priority to lifestyle changes/nutrition over pharm,etc. I am a pharmacist and I rant all the time about how in some cases the appropriate use of medications is the lack of their use(or the temporary use until one gets their hypertension,using myself as an example, under control w/education and lifestyle,etc,etc...). Since I'm posting I'd also like to add I earn nowhere near that 100,000 dollar/year figure AND I'll owe,owe,owe for a long time....(and I worked although parttime during pharm school so I couldkeepmy medical benefits-keeping up w/checkups,dental, occasional "sick visit",etc...and just keep well). I would not dream,in my worst nightmares , of working in one of those retail pharmacy factories.

 

[kj0989]

I've worked with several pharmacists in the corporate environment in recent years. Everybody I met took HUGE pay cuts to leave the drug store pharmacy world and enter Corporate America. Common complaints from pharmacists entering corporate America included:
1. Sick of the customers and older people complaining about their insurance;
2. Sick of feeling like a glorified cashier's clerk, ringing up donuts and milk along with the prescription
3. Sick of counting pills and not spending time with patients

When I say they took huge pay cuts, they took about a 20-25% pay cut to work in a clinical call center and work their way up in organizations like Pharmacy Benefit Management orgs.