PhD after PharmD?

[Minokim2512]

Hello all,

I'm a young undergrad student and need some guidance with my future decision. I apologise ahead if I happen to make any offensive statement. Again, I am VERY young (19) and still learning so please don't yell at me. Any input is much appreciated!

I've just finished taking Orgo and did some undergrad chem research and I realised that I can definitely see myself focusing in chemistry in the long future. At the same time, I'm on my way to finish pre-pharm (PCAT comp 76, planning to retake soon) and I am applying for this year cycle to see how it goes. I've put some thought into both programs and here's my mental breakdown:

PharmD:
Pros:

• Fixed school courses, the program is planned. As long as I work hard then I know I am able to finish the program then get a job; and if I'm lucky then I could probably score a salary of >90,000 (compounding is prob my main focus)

Cons:

• The job outlook seems to be saturated. Many pharmacists in IL that friend with me say that they got their hours cut this year.
• There's nothing new, no "thriving for more" after earning the degree. Somehow obtaining the degree leaves me an impression that the person is just "another pharmacist"

PhD in Chem:
Pros:

• Continuous research, which I enjoy doing as it gives me a sense of continuous achievement
• Although the salary is not as high initially, the job outlook, methinks, is more diverse.
• I love organic chemistry

Cons:

• The amount of time it takes to finish the degree is my main concern since there's no "fixed program."

I was thinking about going for a PhD in (medicinal) chem after PharmD. I don't mind the schooling or hard work nor planning to have a marriage that could interfere this. I'm just not sure if it's possible to get in the PhD without a masters (or even a B.S, in my case). Can I apply with only my PharmD?

Thanks ahead for your time and input.

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[RxMonkey]

I know you're young, but what sort of work do you expect to be doing long-term?

If research is your long-term goal, don't bother with the PharmD. It is not a research degree. I would advise you to finish your B.S. and apply straight to a PhD program.

As far as time.. again, you're young. There's no fire.

I would urge you to look into expenses for professional school. About 150K for pharmacy after 4 years. Any Chemistry PhD program worth it's salt should be waiving tuition as well as giving you a modest stipend during the academic year.

 

[Minokim2512]

The thing is, I can see myself being in a lab until I'm 70 but my family urges me to get a pharmD for it provides a much more stable job & the salary is generally higher. For them, getting a PhD and doing research is "up in the air" and not at all definite. Realistically speaking, I do agree with them so that is why I'm planning to get a PharmD, work part time and work on my PhD...slowly. I have not yet been exposed to the real amount of work and commitment that the route requires hence the career crisis I'm experiencing right now.
Working as a pharmacist doesn't sound intriguing to me but I know it's a realistic and secure route that I should take.

 

[anewmanx]

The thing is, I can see myself being in a lab until I'm 70 but my family urges me to get a pharmD for it provides a much more stable job & the salary is generally higher. For them, getting a PhD and doing research is "up in the air" and not at all definite. Realistically speaking, I do agree with them so that is why I'm planning to get a PharmD, work part time and work on my PhD...slowly. I have not yet been exposed to the real amount of work and commitment that the route requires hence the career crisis I'm experiencing right now.
Working as a pharmacist doesn't sound intriguing to me but I know it's a realistic and secure route that I should take.

Research scientists working in small molecules and nanotechnology make more salary in the long run.

Do what you can see yourself enjoying your whole life. You could spend less time doing medical school than a masters/PhD track, and get paid something during your residency/fellowship time.

It's not about money, it's about what you can stand doing.

You should shadow a doctor, a pharmacist, and a scientist. At least sit down with one of each and discuss what they think about the career they've been doing for 10+ years. Money gets meaningless after a while, that's why some people burn out and end up shampooing dogs in a van or opening some obscure business where they barely break even. Ted Kaczynski was a brilliant Harvard educated professor at the age of 20 and went on to teach at UC Berkeley. History tells us he wasn't exactly happy and focused too much on his career and not enough on finding a way to enjoy his life. The point is, if you're not happy, you might go nuts.

 

[RxMonkey]

The thing is, I can see myself being in a lab until I'm 70 but my family urges me to get a pharmD for it provides a much more stable job & the salary is generally higher. For them, getting a PhD and doing research is "up in the air" and not at all definite. Realistically speaking, I do agree with them so that is why I'm planning to get a PharmD, work part time and work on my PhD...slowly. I have not yet been exposed to the real amount of work and commitment that the route requires hence the career crisis I'm experiencing right now.
Working as a pharmacist doesn't sound intriguing to me but I know it's a realistic and secure route that I should take.

Ask your parents to look up pharmacist job outlook in 2020. Saturation is a real worry.

 

[oldstock]

Ask your parents to look up pharmacist job outlook in 2020. Saturation is a real worry.

tell them to read SDN threads about PGY3 and paying a tuition to even do a residency

 

[Minokim2512]

Ask your parents to look up pharmacist job outlook in 2020. Saturation is a real worry.

I just looked at the data and you're absolutely right. However, synthetic organic chemistry (what I'd like to do) is not too hot either. I definitely cannot see myself being a professor though.

I must mention that I remember seeing a roomful of candidates like me when I was taking the PCAT. All were female (literally), major in bio/pre-pharm and some were chem but all were "hoping to get out of profession school the easier way while earning high salary." The cliche is what mainly discouraged me. I've seen very mediocre students (failing multiple science courses then retaking them) being admitted to the pharmD program and they have no intention of learning or trying but show up to earn the big bucks. I understand that not all pharm students are like that but somehow I'm beginning to think that schools focus more on recruiting students for business purposes and the quality of the degree will somewhat be declined. I guess I'd thrive for the PharmD for what I hope would give me a stable job then work on the research PhD part time.

Thank you all for the valuable advices

 

[oldstock]

I just looked at the data and you're absolutely right. However, synthetic organic chemistry (what I'd like to do) is not too hot either. I definitely cannot see myself being a professor though.

I must mention that I remember seeing a roomful of candidates like me when I was taking the PCAT. All were female (literally), major in bio/pre-pharm and some were chem but all were "hoping to get out of profession school the easier way while earning high salary." The cliche is what mainly discouraged me. I've seen very mediocre students (failing multiple science courses then retaking them) being admitted to the pharmD program and they have no intention of learning or trying but show up to earn the big bucks. I understand that not all pharm students are like that but somehow I'm beginning to think that schools focus more on recruiting students for business purposes and the quality of the degree will somewhat be declined. I guess I'd thrive for the PharmD for what I hope would give me a stable job then work on the research PhD part time.

Thank you all for the valuable advices

that is the reality. You absolutely nailed it !!

 

[sunshao]

that is the reality. You absolutely nailed it !!

How can one expect to get a good job if u don't tryhard? Imho, now is the most important part to strive to be at the top of the class, make the connections and meet people because this is the field u r going into for the long run. People who expect it to be easy and get a good job are gonna be in a big surprise because the courses are not easy from what I heard. Yes, it is harder to fail out of pharm school, but I wouldn't put that as the #1 reason to do pharm D. I think that if u go to a public school that is established with a university, then u can do well.

 

[oldstock]

How can one expect to get a good job if u don't tryhard? Imho, now is the most important part to strive to be at the top of the class, make the connections and meet people because this is the field u r going into for the long run. People who expect it to be easy and get a good job are gonna be in a big surprise because the courses are not easy from what I heard. Yes, it is harder to fail out of pharm school, but I wouldn't put that as the #1 reason to do pharm D. I think that if u go to a public school that is established with a university, then u can do well.

Huh ?? Hmmm....

 

[oldstock]

Yes, it is harder to fail out of pharm school, but I wouldn't put that as the #1 reason to do pharm D. I think that if u go to a public school that is established with a university, then u can do well.

Priceless !!

 

[Minokim2512]

I'm not saying that pharm school is going to be easy. I understand that hard work comes with rewards but that is not the case anymore considering the economic saturation. Like many people, I am willing to work hard but at the same time, I want to be realistic and look at the future of pharmacy to determine if it's worth it to invest my time, loan and effort on. I'm not saying that there's no hope for pharmacy but it is true that there will be a lot more schools opening up in the future to recruit mediocre students which leads to the quality of the degree and the need of pharmacists being decreased.

 

[BidingMyTime]

To the OP, well, if job security is your main concern, there are FAR more unemployed/underemployed PHD's then their are Pharm D's. It sounds like you could be successful at either, and there are job opportunities (albeit limited, that would make good use of a PHD/PharmD combo.) So assuming money isn't a concern (but of course it really is) the question would be, if you want to get both, which should you get first? I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere about a dual PHD/PharmD program (maybe someone else here or google can give more info), this would obviously be the best bet for you. If that were not possible, I would suggest getting the PHD first, since that sounds like its what *you* want to do most, and you can get your PharmD 2nd (if you still wanted to after getting your PHD)

Yes, it is harder to fail out of pharm school, but I wouldn't put that as the #1 reason to do pharm D. I think that if u go to a public school that is established with a university, then u can do well.

Say what? It's much easier to fail out of pharmacy school, then out of a PHD program. PhD programs don't normally "fail" students, they will just add on extra years of study/research until the student meets the mark required to get the degree (or gives up and drops out voluntarily)

 

[BidingMyTime]

Feeling googly tonight, so I went ahead and googled for you, University of Michigan, University of Tennesee, and University of Arizona are 3 schools which showed up offering a dual degree.

 

[y0ssarian87]

And if you do pharmD/PhD you may get out of paying some tuition!!

I'm not familiar with any dual degree programs that waive tuition for the PharmD portion, and PhD programs are usually fully funded with tuition waivers and a stipend. I don't think there is a tuition benefit to the dual degree. The main benefit comes from the shorter time to acquire the PhD. This means money saved on interest accrual on PharmD student loans.

 

[Jibby321]

Feeling googly tonight, so I went ahead and googled for you, University of Michigan, University of Tennesee, and University of Arizona are 3 schools which showed up offering a dual degree.

UF

 

[homeslice]

UF

Add UIC to the list.

 

[Minokim2512]

I think it depends on what field you're getting your PhD in that determines the job outlook. Thanks for all the input and I've determined to go for the chem degree that I've truly wanted to pursue despite the lower salary. Also, the dual degree doesn't sound worthy since very job I wish to apply asks only for one or the other.

To the OP, well, if job security is your main concern, there are FAR more unemployed/underemployed PHD's then their are Pharm D's. It sounds like you could be successful at either, and there are job opportunities (albeit limited, that would make good use of a PHD/PharmD combo.) So assuming money isn't a concern (but of course it really is) the question would be, if you want to get both, which should you get first? I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere about a dual PHD/PharmD program (maybe someone else here or google can give more info), this would obviously be the best bet for you. If that were not possible, I would suggest getting the PHD first, since that sounds like its what *you* want to do most, and you can get your PharmD 2nd (if you still wanted to after getting your PHD)



Say what? It's much easier to fail out of pharmacy school, then out of a PHD program. PhD programs don't normally "fail" students, they will just add on extra years of study/research until the student meets the mark required to get the degree (or gives up and drops out voluntarily)

Don't you think the higher number of phd's granted compared to pharmD could potentially have affected the data? Plus, it's the field you're getting a degree for matters too. Like a phd in...tourism isn't gonna do anyone much good.

 

[Minokim2512]

And thanks for googling the school list for me, truly appreciate the effort!!