PhD-to-MD/DO 2016-2017 Applicants

[JJRousseau]

Hello,

I thought it might be nice to have a thread for those of us who have gone and done the silly thing of doing the PhD before medical school. For some of us, this was a decision to seize an opportunity and for others it was a discovery of the love of medicine during the PhD. At any rate, the reasons why not to go this route have been thoroughly discussed, but for those of us applying now I thought it might be nice to have a little support group. Potentially throw out any bizarre interview questions you might find or express your anxieties about applying with the PhD in hand (or almost in hand...). I, for one, am anxious about the extent to which my major clinical volunteering was pre-PhD. Oh, and of course I'm stressed about writing the thesis ATM. Hopefully, we can just have a bit of social thread running as the application process feels a bit weird in this position (much as it does for many non-trads) and it might be nice to have a forum for folks in similar positions much as our esteemed peers, the RNs, do.

EDIT. typo

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[QofQuimica]

Welcome to SDN. I'm a PhD-to-MD and now an academic attending.

Regarding your anxiety about having "old" clinical experience, this is easily remedied by getting a new clinical volunteering gig, and doing it. Yeah, I know it's one more thing on your plate, but if you're serious about med school, you should suck it up and do it. This won't be the first (or the hardest) hurdle you'll be asked to jump along the way to becoming a physician. The biggest part of winning this battle is to keep showing up.

For your thesis, best advice there is to work on it a little every day. You got this, dude(tte). Your committee wouldn't be letting you write up if they weren't planning to graduate you.

Bizarrest med school interview question I got: after telling this one (PhD) interviewer all about my dissertation work, she fires back with, "if you're so interested in research, why didn't you apply MD/PhD?" I'm not someone who's often at a loss for words, but it did take me a few seconds to come up with a coherent reply of, "well, it's been hard enough earning one PhD. I kind of figured that one is enough to last me a lifetime."

 

[JJRousseau]

@QofQuimica - ideal response. And wholeheartedly agreed. The PhD has been a blast, but don't ask me to do it again , no way, no siree. Honestly, I'm most looking forward to being able to focus on research output without having this darned document to submit at the end.

 

[QofQuimica]

@QofQuimica - ideal response. And wholeheartedly agreed. The PhD has been a blast, but don't ask me to do it again , no way, no siree. Honestly, I'm most looking forward to being able to focus on research output without having this darned document to submit at the end.

If I were going to do another PhD, it would be in something that had nothing to do with science. Like, maybe literature, or philosophy. Some kind of humanity. And subject to getting funding, of course. The idea of actually paying for a degree is just....an anathema.

 

[JJRousseau]

I'm currently trying to finish up my PhD in molecular bio and am applying this cycle! So nice to find a kindred spirit. Super stressed out trying to finish my program requirements- checking my email a million times a day looking for IIs isn't making the process go any quicker. :/

I found my limited volunteering experience this past year similarly relieving. It was nice to have a reason to put the projects aside and just interact with people. And if I'm honest, I too have burned a few hours frantically checking for IIs. Once the science is sorted, the write-up is just agonising and un-interesting enough to make the II wait all too alluring! But we must tunnel in and get 'er done!

 

[JJRousseau]

If I were going to do another PhD, it would be in something that had nothing to do with science. Like, maybe literature, or philosophy. Some kind of humanity. And subject to getting funding, of course. The idea of actually paying for a degree is just....an anathema.

Me too! Would have to be history, literature, or philosophy. At my college in the UK there was a retired physician doing a PhD in French literature. He was riot (though I think he paid for his degree, junior doctors had it better in his day) - maybe that's our fate in forty years. Though I haven't ruled out a transition into politics following a satisfying (and inevitably frustrating) 30-35 year career in academic medicine.

 

[wholeheartedly]

If I were going to do another PhD, it would be in something that had nothing to do with science. Like, maybe literature, or philosophy. Some kind of humanity. And subject to getting funding, of course. The idea of actually paying for a degree is just....an anathema.

I think I'd do an additional one in theoretical physics... that's sort of like philosophy. LOL.

 

[Naruhodo]

Thanks JJRousseau for creating this thread! This is my first SDN post, though I've been lurking for a while (useful for secondary prompts, less useful for my neuroticism). As fellow PhD here hoping to make the transition to medicine, one of the challenges for me has been vacillating in terms of my confidence in things working out like I hope. My self-esteem hit an all-time low during the last year of my PhD when my PI basically told me that he never planned to let me publish any of my work and that I should be grateful that he was allowing me to graduate at all. It was a rough period, but through some miracle I landed the postdoc of my dreams and life has been much, MUCH better since moving to the new lab. The work I do now is more clinically-oriented and, for me, much more meaningful. My mentors are incredible and have been completely supportive of my applying to medical school. Although I'm still self-conscious about my lack of publications from graduate school, I just submitted my first, first-author publication from my postdoc and just began writing the second.

I hear you about the clinical volunteering. Everything other than research took a back seat in grad school. I once asked my PI (who made it clear from the start that the expectation was that I be in lab 7 days a week) if I could volunteer one morning a week if I made up the hours up by staying later. He told me I could but that every moment I wasn't in lab would delay the receipt of my degree. So I decided not to risk it. Fortunately, my postdoc actually includes a clinical component where I have the opportunity to shadow physicians and see patients in the specialty I someday hope to enter. Still, one of my mentors, who is actually on a medical school selection committee, suggested it would also be important to get recent clinical volunteering experience. So now I volunteer at the hospital down the block on Saturday mornings, which may not be as interesting as what I get to do through work, but still hopefully shows my commitment and that I am willing to put in the legwork and not just do the fun stuff.

Though it's not my own, I want to share one other story. One of the smartest guys in my PhD cohort encountered major mental health issues during graduate school and neither he nor the school handled it well. He ended up being expelled from the program and even jailed for a period of time. Again, brilliant guy who prior to this had three publications and was on track to finish his PhD in four years. Last year, he applied to medical school and landed a full scholarship to a prestigious school. Hearing his story encouraged me that this really is possible and not to sell myself short. Although I may have taken a brow beating in grad school, it pales in comparison to what my friend went through and look where he is now. The cynical part of me says, "Yeah, but remember, he has the publications to back up what he knows", but then I just remind myself that everyone's path is different. Best of luck to all.

 

[MYRIAD909]

Thanks JJRousseau for creating this thread! This is my first SDN post, though I've been lurking for a while (useful for secondary prompts, less useful for my neuroticism). As fellow PhD here hoping to make the transition to medicine, one of the challenges for me has been vacillating in terms of my confidence in things working out like I hope. My self-esteem hit an all-time low during the last year of my PhD when my PI basically told me that he never planned to let me publish any of my work and that I should be grateful that he was allowing me to graduate at all. It was a rough period, but through some miracle I landed the postdoc of my dreams and life has been much, MUCH better since moving to the new lab. The work I do now is more clinically-oriented and, for me, much more meaningful. My mentors are incredible and have been completely supportive of my applying to medical school. Although I'm still self-conscious about my lack of publications from graduate school, I just submitted my first, first-author publication from my postdoc and just began writing the second.

I hear you about the clinical volunteering. Everything other than research took a back seat in grad school. I once asked my PI (who made it clear from the start that the expectation was that I be in lab 7 days a week) if I could volunteer one morning a week if I made up the hours up by staying later. He told me I could but that every moment I wasn't in lab would delay the receipt of my degree. So I decided not to risk it. Fortunately, my postdoc actually includes a clinical component where I have the opportunity to shadow physicians and see patients in the specialty I someday hope to enter. Still, one of my mentors, who is actually on a medical school selection committee, suggested it would also be important to get recent clinical volunteering experience. So now I volunteer at the hospital down the block on Saturday mornings, which may not be as interesting as what I get to do through work, but still hopefully shows my commitment and that I am willing to put in the legwork and not just do the fun stuff.

Though it's not my own, I want to share one other story. One of the smartest guys in my PhD cohort encountered major mental health issues during graduate school and neither he nor the school handled it well. He ended up being expelled from the program and even jailed for a period of time. Again, brilliant guy who prior to this had three publications and was on track to finish his PhD in four years. Last year, he applied to medical school and landed a full scholarship to a prestigious school. Hearing his story encouraged me that this really is possible and not to sell myself short. Although I may have taken a brow beating in grad school, it pales in comparison to what my friend went through and look where he is now. The cynical part of me says, "Yeah, but remember, he has the publications to back up what he knows", but then I just remind myself that everyone's path is different. Best of luck to all.

Thanks for sharing Naruhodo. Sorry to hear about your lousy experience in grad school. Unfortunately, your PI is just one of thousands with terrible mentoring skills. In case you aren't aware, Columbia has a "fast-track" 3-year MD program offered to PhD graduates (http://columbiamedicine.org/education/3Y_PhD-MD.shtml). This might be right up your alley. There are actually several 3-year medical school programs (http://www.collegiategateway.com/tag/3-year-phd-to-md/), although Columbia's is the only one that caters specifically to PhDs.

 

[Naruhodo]

Thanks MYRIAD909! Honestly I'm sharing my story in part because I know the PhD experience can be hard on folks and they should know they are not alone. People are better than the cruelest things their advisors ever said about them. Learn what you can from difficult experiences and then move on. Thankfully, second chances are real

This year it seems both Columbia and NYU are offering 3-year Phd-to-MD tracks and I've thrown my hat in the ring for both. The one restriction for Columbia is that they will not allow people to pursue surgical specialties after their fast track MD (not enough time for clinical exposure), but anyone interested in the "cognitive specialties" (i.e. internal medicine, peds, neuro, psych, path, etc... though it seems a little mean to call surgery non-cognitive IMO) is good to go. For NYU, you must be admitted to the residency of your choice at NYU and attend there in order to participate in the 3-year option. I thought about the UC Davis program (and I am applying there for the regular 4-year MD), but since they want to train primary care providers and I know that's not where my heart lies it didn't feel right. Might be perfect for someone though, and I personally think this trend towards more 3-year MD programs is really nice for non-traditionals who may already have a pretty clear idea of what they are hoping to achieve with their medical training/ careers.

 

[MYRIAD909]

Thanks MYRIAD909! Honestly I'm sharing my story in part because I know the PhD experience can be hard on folks and they should know they are not alone. People are better than the cruelest things their advisors ever said about them. Learn what you can from difficult experiences and then move on. Thankfully, second chances are real

This year it seems both Columbia and NYU are offering 3-year Phd-to-MD tracks and I've thrown my hat in the ring for both. The one restriction for Columbia is that they will not allow people to pursue surgical specialties after their fast track MD (not enough time for clinical exposure), but anyone interested in the "cognitive specialties" (i.e. internal medicine, peds, neuro, psych, path, etc... though it seems a little mean to call surgery non-cognitive IMO) is good to go. For NYU, you must be admitted to the residency of your choice at NYU and attend there in order to participate in the 3-year option. I thought about the UC Davis program (and I am applying there for the regular 4-year MD), but since they want to train primary care providers and I know that's not where my heart lies it didn't feel right. Might be perfect for someone though, and I personally think this trend towards more 3-year MD programs is really nice for non-traditionals who may already have a pretty clear idea of what they are hoping to achieve with their medical training/ careers.

I've heard about the restrictions for both Columbia and NYU and it's part of the reason I'm trying to transfer into the MSTP at my PhD institution. I'm only a first-year, so I figure this is my only shot at transferring. Given your experience, I'm curious...do you think the combined MD/PhD track is too overwhelming to get the most out of the PhD years? This is a big concern and one of the reasons I'm contemplating your route instead.

 

[Naruhodo]

Gosh the MD/PhD experience can be so incredibly variable that it is tough to paint it all with one brush. I can tell you that at my PhD institution there was some grumbling among the PhD students that the MD/PhD students got to graduate with less ambitious projects, but this was mostly because they were on such a strict timeline (not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion). Of course, exceptions come to mind of students who did stellar research during their MD/PhDs and went straight from that experience to running their own labs. So it is absolutely possible and you are probably the best judge of what will work for you. Back in the day I applied to MSTPs as well as PhD programs and interviewed for both and would have definitely said yes if a spot had opened up for me in the MD/PhD program. I cringed recently reading old emails from my first application cycle when I had turned down the opportunity to be considered for MD-only at the schools I applied to (because I was already into PhD programs and why would I take on all that debt?). Depending on what you want to do, lots of clinical research doesn't actually require the PhD and there are MDs out there doing highly-regarded research. That being said, I do not regret the PhD because it shaped the way I think about science and put me on the path to a career I love.

I wish you every success transferring into the MSTP at your institution this year. If for whatever reason it doesn't work out, keep an open mind. The head of the pediatrics department at UCSF, a pediatric neurologist, was a PhD student and just wasn't feeling it so she transferred to medical school and went on to an incredible career in academic medicine. Lots of top medical schools (Case, Harvard HST, Stanford, Yale, UCSF, Duke, etc. etc. etc.) have the option to become heavily involved in research and to even do a free 5th year to earn a special certification. If you're stubborn like me and just really want that PhD then doing them back-to-back is always possible too (one of the physicians I work with went for the PhD after his MD, and he's fantastic). Any combination can work, so you just have to figure out how to make it work for you

 

[JJRousseau]

"cognitive specialties" (i.e. internal medicine, peds, neuro, psych, path, etc... though it seems a little mean to call surgery non-cognitive IMO)

Don't have time now to respond to a number of interesting points by you both, but just wanted to laugh at myself for assuming cognitive specialties meant neuroscience such as psychiatry and neurology only. Your interpretation of that statement makes so much more sense... I feel very silly and hope my misunderstanding does not come across in my application...

 

[TheTao]

Be nice to change the title to PhD-DO or PhD-MD since I may be the former.

 

[Naruhodo]

just wanted to laugh at myself for assuming cognitive specialties meant neuroscience such as psychiatry and neurology only. Your interpretation of that statement makes so much more sense... I feel very silly and hope my misunderstanding does not come across in my application...

I am sure that you are fine, but thank you for making me smile. I could really use it today since I got word from the editor that my paper was rejected without being sent out for review from the first journal I tried. Also, realized that in the haze of memory I had been overestimating my BCPM GPA by about 0.15. And I caved and finally called UCLA to see if there was anything missing that they needed to make the decision on whether or not to send me a secondary (Overworked admissions lady replied, "You know it is your responsibility to make sure your file is complete for consideration, right?"). On the flip side, I had a pretty incredible experience in clinic that reminded me again why this is all worth it.

Be nice to change the title to PhD-DO or PhD-MD since I may be the former.

TheTao, absolutely you are right. I think we're just using MD as a placeholder for the kind of doctor that we aren't yet

 

[JJRousseau]

TheTao, absolutely you are right. I think we're just using MD as a placeholder for the kind of doctor that we aren't yet

Exactly my intention.

Be nice to change the title to PhD-DO or PhD-MD since I may be the former.

I'd be happy to adjust it to reflect medical practice degrees more generally, if only I knew how...

 

[QofQuimica]

Exactly my intention.



I'd be happy to adjust it to reflect medical practice degrees more generally, if only I knew how...

I fixed it for you.

 

[JJRousseau]

I fixed it for you.

Thanks a mil!

 

[Naruhodo]

You would never guess who I heard from recently... my PI from grad school who has since decided that he DOES want to publish one of my projects and needs me to pull together the manuscript. Well I'll be...

 

[TheTao]

Anyone else working on manuscripts/grants for 2017? I'll be working on both along with preparing for my qualifying exams later in 2017!

 

[Dr.SFla]

Wishing all SDN folks a fabulous and merry 2017.

 

[PhDtoMD1988]

You would never guess who I heard from recently... my PI from grad school who has since decided that he DOES want to publish one of my projects and needs me to pull together the manuscript. Well I'll be...

HI Naruhodo, there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with stubborn ex-PI's and forcing them to publish. We have a very similar grad school story. If it helps, I finally had mine give me his login info and I submitted my paper in a communications journal (which is reviewed by the editor and given an acceptance or rejection) and the tertiary peer review is avoided. BTW, I was curious as to what happened with the 3-year Columbia and NYU programs. Did you hear from them? I applied in mid-July to both of them-but there is literally no data online regarding the programs' class size or acceptance rates. Any info you may have-will be so helpful! Thank you

 

[Naruhodo]

HI Naruhodo, there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with stubborn ex-PI's and forcing them to publish. We have a very similar grad school story. If it helps, I finally had mine give me his login info and I submitted my paper in a communications journal (which is reviewed by the editor and given an acceptance or rejection) and the tertiary peer review is avoided. BTW, I was curious as to what happened with the 3-year Columbia and NYU programs. Did you hear from them? I applied in mid-July to both of them-but there is literally no data online regarding the programs' class size or acceptance rates. Any info you may have-will be so helpful! Thank you

Hey @PhDtoMD1988,
Thanks for your note. Honestly, I haven't heard since from my grad PI and realized afterwards that he probably just needed the figures for his biannual faculty talk (I head later from another former grad students that basically his whole talk had been my work). At this point I'm happy if he wants to publish, but I'm more excited to continue work from my postdoc (which I loved and had great mentorship during). At this point I've been fortunate to have lots of opportunities to publish, so I think I will just continue to work on publications with coauthors that I genuinely like It's nice to have that freedom.
I never did get interviews for either of those 3-year programs, and ended up in a traditional 4-year program. I wondered whether not having that recommendation from my PhD mentor is what did me in, but honestly I'll never know and am happy with how things worked out regardless. I think Columbia interviews something like 20 people for 5 spots in their 3-year PhD-to-MD and I have no clue about NYU but believe that it is also not a very large program. Wishing you success (in whatever from that may take)!

 

[re2171]

Hi all, this is a helpful thread, thanks. I'm in similar but slightly different situation. I actually completed my PhD in 2011 and am finishing up my post-doc now (in cancer research, perhaps a bit longer than other fields). I'm trying to decide whether I want to apply for a K22 and transition to professorship, or go to medical school and pursue medical oncology (if the MD route, I'd still like to do at least 50-75% research long term). A major obstacle is paying for it...I'm a bit surprised to find so many schools with MSTPs, and even individual NIH funding opportunities (F30) to fully fund students concurrently working towards their MDs and PhD, but I see nothing for PhD holders going back to school to obtain MDs. I've reached out to a couple programs but the responses have been wholly unhelpful. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

 

[JJRousseau]

You are not missing anything. You'll have to pay for the md.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[PhDtoMD1988]

Hi all, this is a helpful thread, thanks. I'm in similar but slightly different situation. I actually completed my PhD in 2011 and am finishing up my post-doc now (in cancer research, perhaps a bit longer than other fields). I'm trying to decide whether I want to apply for a K22 and transition to professorship, or go to medical school and pursue medical oncology (if the MD route, I'd still like to do at least 50-75% research long term). A major obstacle is paying for it...I'm a bit surprised to find so many schools with MSTPs, and even individual NIH funding opportunities (F30) to fully fund students concurrently working towards their MDs and PhD, but I see nothing for PhD holders going back to school to obtain MDs. I've reached out to a couple programs but the responses have been wholly unhelpful. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

Hi re2171. Yes, JJRousseau is correct. Even we've got to pick up the MD bill. One option is the Military HPSP, which pays for tuition and stipend. But if I can say one thing for sure. It is that if you can leave a successful career in research and welcome the thought of being a poor medical student for 4 more years, then do the MD For me, I've played Devil's Advocate, dissuading myself from MD. I realize that I do not see myself happy by doing anything other than the MD. Also keep in mind, that heavy research as a clinician is time-challenging. My PI (MD) also wishes he could do 50% research, but it ends up being only 5-10% that cuts into his free time.. Hope that helps~

 

[PhDtoMD1988]

Hey @PhDtoMD1988,
Thanks for your note. Honestly, I haven't heard since from my grad PI and realized afterwards that he probably just needed the figures for his biannual faculty talk (I head later from another former grad students that basically his whole talk had been my work). At this point I'm happy if he wants to publish, but I'm more excited to continue work from my postdoc (which I loved and had great mentorship during). At this point I've been fortunate to have lots of opportunities to publish, so I think I will just continue to work on publications with coauthors that I genuinely like It's nice to have that freedom.
I never did get interviews for either of those 3-year programs, and ended up in a traditional 4-year program. I wondered whether not having that interview from my PhD mentor is what did me in, but honestly I'll never know and am happy with how things worked out regardless. I think Columbia interviews something like 20 people for 5 spots in their 3-year PhD-to-MD and I have no clue about NYU but believe that it is also not a very large program. Wishing you success (in whatever from that may take)!

Hi there!
Wow! I still can't believe your PI. And you have the right mindset in moving forward
so 5 spots in the PhD-to-MD? that is very tiny. It is no wonder I don't know anyone who has done it. I am undergoing interviews (4-year and MCW's fast-track 3-year program) So very excited for that last one, in that I could save a year.

 

[PhDtoMD1988]

Hi there!
Wow! I still can't believe your PI. And you have the right mindset in moving forward
so 5 spots in the PhD-to-MD? that is very tiny. It is no wonder I don't know anyone who has done it. I am undergoing interviews (4-year and MCW's fast-track 3-year program) So very excited for that last one, in that I could save a year.

Hi there! Yes it is never-ending for my poor MD PI. We stayed up until midnight submitting a grant. That is so cool you're doing the 3-year at MCW. It's a really smart move, and theirs to have chosen you. I'll be there as well in 2 weeks!