PhD (unaccredited) vs PsyD (accredited)

[kleinmak]

Long story short... I entered a psychology doctoral program that was "transitioning" from a PsyD to PhD ... 5 long years later we just found out that APA denied a site visit (due to research productivity... and "politics"). This means that the program is an accredited PsyD and will not be pursuing the PhD at this time. Despite this, I have the option of graduating with an unaccredited PhD instead of the accredited PsyD.

For many reasons, including job opportunity/career goals not to mention psychological investment, I am more interested in the PhD degree. I am currently a postdoc at a very prestigious hospital/placement and completed my internship at an equally prestigious placement. Given that work history, I am not sure how important the accreditation status will be. Will the names of my internship/postdoc carry more weight? Or will I be denied occupational opportunity given what may only be a missing two words - "APA accredited" - on my CV. I doubt that I will be completing many formal applications (like internship) where it is a check box and a quick way to wean out applicants, and rather it is something I can (confidently) explain at an interview. Help please!

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[deleted480308]

Accredited (uncle is a dept head, won't even talk to nonaccreditted in most cases)

 

[chman]

Can you even be licensed if you didn't graduate from an accredited program?

 

[kleinmak]

Can you even be licensed if you didn't graduate from an accredited program?

I fear that I can not (in which case null point, go with the PsyD) but it is unclear. I have literally been on hold with NY state license board for "92 minutes, 44 seconds" ... Here is what it says online (my program is not in NY so it has to be considered an "equivalent" program)...

To be determined to be the equivalent of a New York State program registered as licensure qualifying, a program must be offered by an institution accredited by an accrediting organization acceptable to the Department or recognized by the appropriate civil authorities of the jurisdiction in which the school is located as an acceptable doctoral program in psychology. The program must be designed and conducted by the degree-granting institution to prepare graduates to practice professional psychology independently, and it must be shown to be substantially equivalent to the requirements for the registration of a licensure qualifying doctoral program in psychology in New York State. The program must consist of at least three years of full-time study, or the part-time equivalent, and must include at least 30 semester hours of course work obtained at the doctoral degree-granting institution. Programs located in the United States must be accredited by a regional accrediting body approved by the United States Department of Education or the New York State Board of Regents.

 

[chman]

I fear that I can not (in which case null point, go with the PsyD) but it is unclear. I have literally been on hold with NY state license board for "92 minutes, 44 seconds" ... Here is what it says online (my program is not in NY so it has to be considered an "equivalent" program)...

To be determined to be the equivalent of a New York State program registered as licensure qualifying, a program must be offered by an institution accredited by an accrediting organization acceptable to the Department or recognized by the appropriate civil authorities of the jurisdiction in which the school is located as an acceptable doctoral program in psychology. The program must be designed and conducted by the degree-granting institution to prepare graduates to practice professional psychology independently, and it must be shown to be substantially equivalent to the requirements for the registration of a licensure qualifying doctoral program in psychology in New York State. The program must consist of at least three years of full-time study, or the part-time equivalent, and must include at least 30 semester hours of course work obtained at the doctoral degree-granting institution. Programs located in the United States must be accredited by a regional accrediting body approved by the United States Department of Education or the New York State Board of Regents.

Why not just go with the sure thing? I have read plenty of psychology department websites that have professors/researchers who are PsyD's.. It may set you back a little, but if you have a solid research record it probably won't matter after a while..

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Why not just go with the sure thing? I have read plenty of psychology department websites that have professors/researchers who are PsyD's.. It may set you back a little, but if you have a solid research record it probably won't matter after a while..

Agreed; I'd go accredited without a doubt, and would just let my research productivity and history speak for me as to why I should be considered for jobs that might traditionally favor Ph.D. applicants.

Edit: As for licensing, I believe Mississippi is the only state I know of that outright requires APA accreditation at the doctoral level (and possibly internship...?) for licensing. Every other state at which I've looked requires that the applicant essentially "prove" their training is equivalent to APA accreditation, which includes mailing in syllabi for all of your classes and detailing what information was covered, describing the types of practicum experiences and how much on-site supervision was provided (and by whom), etc.

In other words, it sounds like a HUGE pain, and ultimately the decision still lies with the licensing board.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The lack of APA-acred program status will tank 99% of any "prestigious" job options now and in the future. The only exception will maybe be in a research only position, but even then most depts want the gold standard, and there is enough competition they'll find it. Research productivity and/or specialized training should be able to overcome most all Psy.D bias (if it exists at the Uni).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The lack of APA-acred program status will tank 99% of any "prestigious" job options now and in the future. The only exception will maybe be in a research only position, but even then most depts want the gold standard, and there is enough competition they'll find it. Research productivity and/or specialized training should be able to overcome most all Psy.D bias (if it exists at the Uni).

And yes, also this. I really doubt that a Ph.D. (vs. a Psy.D.) is going to open any doors for you that a lack of accreditation will not then immediately close.

 

[PHD12]

For many reasons, including job opportunity/career goals not to mention psychological investment, I am more interested in the PhD degree. I am currently a postdoc at a very prestigious hospital/placement and completed my internship at an equally prestigious placement.

Didn't you get this internship and postdoc while technically in a PsyD program? Why would it hurt you now? It was always a PsyD while it was "transitioning."

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

I'd just take the PsyD. That's what you go accepted into in the first place anyways.

 

[edieb]

Without any hesitation, take the accredited Psy.D.

 

[LETSGONYR]

How are you on postdoc if your degree has not already been conferred? I thought you'd have to complete your degree before starting postdoc.

Also... When you applied to internship and postdoc, did you say that your program was APA accredited? If so (and I imagine you did, or you wouldn't have been able to land prestigious positions), I would not change it now... You could get in some hot water if people think you've been lying about your training credentials.

Even independent of all that, though... I'd definitely go with the accredited PsyD.

 

[kleinmak]

Can you even be licensed if you didn't graduate from an accredited program?

I just found out that NY state requires that the program be “regionally accredited” but APA accreditation doesn’t matter to them!

Not sure about other states so my next steps are to look at what states do require APA accreditation and see the likelihood of my ever living there ...

 

[kleinmak]

Didn't you get this internship and postdoc while technically in a PsyD program? Why would it hurt you now? It was always a PsyD while it was "transitioning."

I was open from the start (regarding internship/postdoc applications) about the status “my program is currently an acc psyd transitioning to a phd blah blah” … so both internship and post doc know that I was kinda in both programs or at least that it could turn out in one of three ways (1. PsyD; 2. Accred PhD; 3 unaccred PhD)

 

[deleted480308]

Don't forget you were warned if you take the PhD

 

[kleinmak]

How are you on postdoc if your degree has not already been conferred? I thought you'd have to complete your degree before starting postdoc.

Also... When you applied to internship and postdoc, did you say that your program was APA accredited? If so (and I imagine you did, or you wouldn't have been able to land prestigious positions), I would not change it now... You could get in some hot water if people think you've been lying about your training credentials.

Even independent of all that, though... I'd definitely go with the accredited PsyD.

All degree requirements are completed my degree just hasn't been conferred ... my experience tells me that this is a decision that is allowed on a site by site basis ... (three sites offered me a position and all 3 accepted my status as not conferred... but again very arbitrary) ... basically they just wanted to make sure that my dissertation was completed. They also highly cautioned me about the potential of delaying licensure due to not being able to accrue hours without the degree conferred - which doesn't apply in NY -- if degree requirements (internship/dissertation) are completed you can get the limited permit even if the degree isn't conferred!

 

[kleinmak]

I hope that answered some questions!

I would also like to deeply thank everyone for their help and thoughtful responses! It is really helpful and as I continue to speak with senior psychologists at my site I will hopefully make a decision by Thursday (deadline my school imposed)!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

So at this point, you can essentially choose to graduate with either the PhD or the PsyD, as the requirements for both have been met?

Again, I'd strongly urge you go the APA accredited route. I'm still not sure that APA accreditation "doesn't matter" to NY so much as it is that they don't explicitly require it. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't require you to do the things I mentioned earlier (e.g., send in transcripts from various grad school classes, have supervisors sign off on/attest to the amount of supervision you received and in what settings, etc.).

Given that the program has an accredited Psy.D. program, that may or may not work in your favor if you go the Ph.D. route (e.g., they may be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on some things). However, as few states seem to have reciprocity with one another, re-verifying your credentials is likely something you'll need to do with each state to which you move...at least until you get "senior psychologist" status, which is generally after ~10 years.

I truly would be surprised if, as I said earlier, the Ph.D. (vs. Psy.D.) would open any doors at all for you that the non-accredited status would not then immediately close. However, the decision is of course yours to make, and you know your current career situation better than anyone here.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There is a large gap between being licensed and being competitive for a job, particularly in a market as competitive as NY (NYC Metro area/within 3hrs). People who come from an APA-acred program, APA-acred. internship, and halfway decent post-doc are still fighting for employment in NY. The NYC Metro area is easily in the Top 5 hardest places to find a job in the country. SF, LA, and Chicago are up there too.

 

[Ollie123]

I'd absolutely opt for a PsyD in that situation. Yes, there is a bias in academia. It could well hurt you if you are applying for faculty positions at research universities or AMCs. However, I think an unaccredited degree is much more likely to be a barrier. Its also harder to mitigate...the PsyD is an issue because it carries some (arguably justifiable) stigma due to the programs that typically offer the degree. As others note, a strong record can overcome this. However, its much more likely places will have hard and fast rules in place about not hiring graduates from unaccredited programs than not hiring PsyDs.

The only situation I would even consider the PhD is if you were planning on a less traditional research-only path (i.e. industry, etc.) where licensure was a non-issue. Then it MIGHT (emphasis on "might") be a better option. Its not an ideal situation regardless, but I think concerns about the PsyD will be less than concerns about an unaccredited program.

 

[Balmoral]

All degree requirements are completed my degree just hasn't been conferred ... my experience tells me that this is a decision that is allowed on a site by site basis ... (three sites offered me a position and all 3 accepted my status as not conferred... but again very arbitrary) ... basically they just wanted to make sure that my dissertation was completed. They also highly cautioned me about the potential of delaying licensure due to not being able to accrue hours without the degree conferred - which doesn't apply in NY -- if degree requirements (internship/dissertation) are completed you can get the limited permit even if the degree isn't conferred!

Did you ask NYSOP what they consider the "recognized appropriate civil authorities" of your area? I am in NYS and you should definitely be specific as to who the accreditation organization is and if NYS recognizes them. Could be just me but statements like this are done to leave room for interpretation but the burden is on the applicant to provide validity. I recommend contacting them and saying your training program is accredited by X, but not APA, and see if you get the green light.

 

[kleinmak]

Did you ask NYSOP what they consider the "recognized appropriate civil authorities" of your area? I am in NYS and you should definitely be specific as to who the accreditation organization is and if NYS recognizes them. Could be just me but statements like this are done to leave room for interpretation but the burden is on the applicant to provide validity. I recommend contacting them and saying your training program is accredited by X, but not APA, and see if you get the green light.

Thanks! They told me that "APA accreditation does not matter in New York" ... again this is only for licensure as I know that it does in fact matter for jobs and they were clear to say that other states may take it into account.

NYSOP seems to be a backwards system... although in this case it is working in my favor if I go that route!

 

[docma]

Taking the accredited degree is the conservative choice that may preserve future options (eg: VA)--and you can always tell the unusual story of your forced choice to sites that might discriminate against the PsyD (yes, you may have some difficulty getting to telling the story....but more open-minded sites would actually find it interesting I think) An unfortunate bind...but make something of it

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

So I believe the consensus would to be to stick with the PsyD OP.

 

[LPPSYD]

What a frustrating position to be in to have to make this choice. I can definitely understand the temptation to want to be credited for doing the work of a Ph.D. It's unfortunate that your program has put you in this position, though I'm sure they meant well.