Physical Therapy vs. Chiropractic

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Were you using pesticides and/or herbicides while you were out there? If yes, then perhaps your liver did take a small hit today.

I'm organic, baby. ;)



I was being facetious, but perhaps too subtle. By capo's logic, anything metabolized by the liver is "damaging" the liver. I was out in sunlight for some Vitamin D, therefore, since my liver was doing something it was being damaged. Now, the beer I had afterwards may be a different story. :p

Members don't see this ad.
 
I'm organic, baby. ;)



I was being facetious, but perhaps too subtle. By capo's logic, anything metabolized by the liver is "damaging" the liver. I was out in sunlight for some Vitamin D, therefore, since my liver was doing something it was being damaged. Now, the beer I had afterwards may be a different story. :p

Stay organic, and keep getting that vitamin D (too many of us don't get enough)!
 
Tell me about it! I'm an incredibly fair skinned Scandinavian, so I've been using sunscreen religiously because I burn easily. I don't even want to know my Vit D levels. :laugh: This year I started taking supplements and spending limited time in the sun, sans sunscreen. I swear I feel more energetic, but that's not exactly a scientific result.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
No. My view of chiropractics is based on clinical evidence showing minimal usefulness of the field, approximately equal to regular doses of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories.
So it is based on studies where physical therapists give mobilization as manipulation like in Hancock 2007 study that raised head lines such as "Chiropractors may be no use in treating back pain" even no chiropractic was used in the study. It was 95% mobilization as physical therapy.

Don't get me wrong, I send people to chiro all the time. I just warn them that the manipulation will likely make them feel really good . . . for about two hours. After that, it's right back to their usual pain.
That's what happened to me many times. Until I found a good one.

Like DC Samuel Homola says:
"There are some good chiropractors who do a good job treating back pain, but they are not easy to find."
http://www.chirobase.org/17QA/benefit.html

Every chiropractor (and DO) are different and most of them are not very good. That's why studies give results it is not much benefitical. Until you find a good one!

How come both DO's and DC's spawned from the same manipulative philosphies? Both Still & Palmer had spinal motion & manipulation as their core tenets. DO's went toward circulation. DC's toward nerves.
I believe they are both right. I have experienced both: Nerve pinches and blood circulation problems. Most of them are because of tight muscles that result from some joint "lock" or dysfunction or whatever it is called.
 
The doctor of chiropractic (DC) degree is the most educated of the primary health care providers. That's right folks. You couldn't really notice the difference in curriculum between DC school and MD/DO school until
the divergence at adjustive techniques and related issues vs pharmacology and surgery. DC school is on the average of 250- 500 hrs more. Life University's College Of Chiropractic has (not maybe has), the most comprehensive and lengthy program of any doctoral school in the world. Nearly 5000 hours! of primary care and adjustive technique instruction.
This is ridiculous. Primary care physicians (family medicine, Ob/Gyn, internal med, and pediatrics) all have a minimum 3 year residency after medical school. Even if you wanted to include those with intern year only (non board-certified), the hours of instruction are much more.

Also, much of that time is spent learning chiropractic manipulation. Those skills are not necessary to deliver primary care. Instead, learning subjects like pharmacology and spending actual time in a hospital treating actual sick patients prepares the medical school graduate far more for practicing primary care than a chiropractic graduate.

A chiropractor is not a generalist. They cannot offer treatment for controlling diabetes or hypertension, diagnose and treat an STD, or literally hundreds of other diseases that can be effectively treated by a primary care physician. Primary care requires a general practicioner. In other words, you're stuck on an island and there's only one clinician there and you have (insert any condition). A primary care physician has the tools and know-how to tackle virtually any medical condition.

The faculty (DC/MD/DO/PHD) are more interested in your's and chiropractics success by inviting you to enroll, not excluding you and kicking you out.
Medical school is more exclusive than chiropractic school because it is more competitive than chiropractic school. This also goes back to your statement that one doesn't need a bachelor's degree to get into medical school. While this is technically correct, the competitiveness effectively weeds out all (and I do mean ALL) applicants without a bachelor's degree. Chiropractic schools, on the other hand, have large percentages of their class that do not have bachelor's degrees.

Interested in a career in chiropractic? You'll be respected by your patients, especially when they are surprised to see how knowledgeable and skilled you are, and when they learn from you that health comes from the natural healing forces of the body that you helped liberate then express.
If you ever had a really sick patient (go to an ICU some time and you'll see what I mean), then you will quickly realize that not only do chiropractors not have the skills or knowledge necessary to treat the truly sick patient, but that all the natural healing forces in the world would fail to keep these patients alive for more than a few minutes off a ventilator.

Many of my patients have told me that they feel that I posses more knowledge and explain everything to them more clearly than their MD, and that even though their original complain was spinal pain, they feel healthier.
As a current medical student, I can see why patients would respect a health professional that appears to take much more time and care much more. In fact, we are taught in medical school to be deliberately empathetic and good listeners. It is not easy when there are a million other things going on in the hospital.

Patients may not fully understand that physicians have many patients that they are caring for, and that much of the care for the patients goes on behind the scenes. Waiting for labs and checking chest x-rays and CT scans all take time and cannot happen instantly. Some diseases must be given time to "present" themselves. All of this leads to patient dissatisfaction based on a misunderstanding of why the care is taking so long.

It will be clinician-specific. I plan on doing my best to be a good communicator to my patients and spend as much time as I need to with them in order to produce the desired therapeutic benefit. However, I know the time constraints of the profession may prevent me from having non-medically related conversations or spending loads and loads of time chatting.

Allopathy and chiropractic are approaches to helping people with their health issues. Chiropractic performs this without the use of drugs or surgery and is damn good at that too.
What if your patient has a hernia? Appendicitis? Brain tumor? Vesicoureteral reflux? Leukemia? Myocardial infarction? Valvular disease? Pneumonia? Tuberculosis? Hypertension? Glaucoma? Cataracts? Diabetes?

What's your differential for fever and what, if anything, could you do even if you figured out what was causing it?

What does chiropractic treat so much more effectively than drugs or surgery? Name ONE thing!
 
ScottDoc, Just wanted to know where you attended Chiropractic School?
 
ScottDoc, Just wanted to know where you attended Chiropractic School?

It will be interesting to see if ScottDoc replies...considering he posted in this thread in 2004. :eek: Never know.
 
in my opinion, chiropractor and physical therapist are the same thing. Although chiropractic treament seems to be somehow more effective than physical therapy, the starting salary for chiropractor is not as competitive as physical therapy. So, you need to be a very good chiropractor who has deep knowledge and passion about the profession. One thing you need to know is that the acupunture works the best for all conditions after all. Have you notice that many chiropractic colleges offer combined degree of DC and acupunture? Also, physical therapist depends heavily on insurace. Moreover, the United States is the only country offers DPT program, and many people in other countries don’t recognize physical therapy as a real doctor. All i am saying is that the world is changing, and someone with most skill and knowledge in the either profession will be successful as long as they really know their knowledges.
 
in my opinion, chiropractor and physical therapist are the same thing. Although chiropractic treatment seems to be somehow more effective than physical therapy, the starting salary for chiropractor is not as competitive as physical therapy. So, you need to be a very good chiropractor who has deep knowledge and passion about the profession. One thing you need to know is that the acupuncture works the best for all conditions after all. Have you notice that many chiropractic colleges offer combined degree of DC and acupuncture? Also, physical therapist depends heavily on insurance. Moreover, the United States is the only country offers DPT program, and many people in other countries don’t recognize physical therapy as a real doctor. All i am saying is that the world is changing, and someone with most skill and knowledge in the either profession will be successful as long as they really know their knowledge.

Have to disagree with much of this VERY OLD POST!

Although there may be some overlap, THEY ARE NOT the same thing! PT is a science based education, housed within accredited liberal arts colleges and universities, with a focus on all aspects of rehabilitation. This includes patients with and without comorbid issues...inpatient and outpatient care....from patients with general orthopedic complaints to CNS (i.e. stroke), post-surgical, wound care...ect...The focus is on restoring function, independence and mobility for patients. The "doctorate" is simply politics....nothing more. Don't pay attention to that in any field. Focus on the content of the education....that is where the rubber meets the pavement.


Chiropractic is more of an alternative type provider. Not that this defines chiropractic, but there is a lack of evidence for much of chiropractic practices. chiropractors are not qualified by their education and training to provide many of the services offered by PT....like rehabilitation of stroke, seizure d/o, MS, dementia pts, rheumatology pts, DM, wound care, inpatient rehabilitation, cardiac pts, respiratory pts, s/p ortho surgery pts...ect.

There are major differences in the entrance requirements and quality of the students, accreditation standards, and practice standards b/t the two professions.

 
Have to disagree with much of this VERY OLD POST!

Although there may be some overlap, THEY ARE NOT the same thing! PT is a science based education, housed within accredited liberal arts colleges and universities, with a focus on all aspects of rehabilitation. This includes patients with and without comorbid issues...inpatient and outpatient care....from patients with general orthopedic complaints to CNS (i.e. stroke), post-surgical, wound care...ect...The focus is on restoring function, independence and mobility for patients. The "doctorate" is simply politics....nothing more. Don't pay attention to that in any field. Focus on the content of the education....that is where the rubber meets the pavement.


Chiropractic is more of an alternative type provider. Not that this defines chiropractic, but there is a lack of evidence for much of chiropractic practices. chiropractors are not qualified by their education and training to provide many of the services offered by PT....like rehabilitation of stroke, seizure d/o, MS, dementia pts, rheumatology pts, DM, wound care, inpatient rehabilitation, cardiac pts, respiratory pts, s/p ortho surgery pts...ect.

There are major differences in the entrance requirements and quality of the students, accreditation standards, and practice standards b/t the two professions.

:thumbup:
 
2 words... "Evidence based". That's the world of medicine and health care that we live in and what drives current trends in pt management. This is done through countless randomized controlled double blinded studies and the like to provide FACTUAL and reproducible results that affect pt outcomes and pt safety. Personally, I think Chiropractic therapy is voodoo and I find no sustainable or persuasive evidence to convince me otherwise. That's why the vast majority of the medical community thinks it's quackery. Your neck manipulations scare the hell out of me after a pt transferred to our institution with a vertebral artery dissection after undergoing one. I hope you consent them and explain the risks of vert art dissection and stroke every time you do the procedure, just as I consent my patients to risks vs benefits prior to any procedure. Most of mine however don't include "this could give you a stroke and/or kill you with little to no available medical resources nearby to help correct the problem or increase your chances of survival". Pt's are woefully undereducated. If you can convince them that all your excessively frequent manipulations are necessary and a "cure all" for all types of ailments they may have, then more power to you, but you won't convince the scientific community. You are relegated to a profession that is dying through lack of evidence and sustaining itself only on marketing to the lay person who really knows nothing. You have a paucity of medical knowledge that is downright scary. Could I say the same thing about acupuncture, though it seems to work for some people? Sure... but I don't ever recommend it to my patients and I discourage them as much as possible from going to a chiropractor. PT is an entirely different field and respected in the medical community for obvious reasons.
 
Deaths after Chiropractic

Summary
Objective:  The aim of this study was to summarise all cases in which chiropractic spinal manipulation was followed by death.

Design:  This study is a systematic review of case reports.

Methods:  Literature searches in four electronic databases with no restrictions of time or language.

Main outcome measure:  Death.

Results:  Twenty six fatalities were published in the medical literature and many more might have remained unpublished. The alleged pathology usually was a vascular accident involving the dissection of a vertebral artery.

Conclusion:  Numerous deaths have occurred after chiropractic manipulations. The risks of this treatment by far outweigh its benefit.

In conclusion, numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic neck manipulations. There are reasons to suspect that under-reporting is substantial and reliable incidence figures do not exist. The risks of chiropractic neck manipulations by far outweigh their benefits. Healthcare professionals should advise the public accordingly.

...and this is exactly what I do.

Medicine has been around for centuries. Your profession has been in existence since the 1890s when D.D. Palmer founded it. It's nothing more than pseudoscience and always will be. The "turf war" is that the more you try to separate yourself from the crazy ideas "innate intelligence, vitalism, etc.. " and embrace MSK therapy, rehab, etc.. the more you become a PT. Well... we've already got PT's and PT schools for a reason. It's not a turf war at all. The medical community will always refer to a PT for MSK rehab and any manipulation, period. We respect those guys and it's evidence based. We're never going to refer to a Chiropractor, so you guys are stuck continuing to convince the uneducated patients that they need you without the support of the medical scientific community.
 
Deaths after Chiropractic

Summary
Objective:  The aim of this study was to summarise all cases in which chiropractic spinal manipulation was followed by death.

Design:  This study is a systematic review of case reports.

Methods:  Literature searches in four electronic databases with no restrictions of time or language.

Main outcome measure:  Death.

Results:  Twenty six fatalities were published in the medical literature and many more might have remained unpublished. The alleged pathology usually was a vascular accident involving the dissection of a vertebral artery.

Conclusion:  Numerous deaths have occurred after chiropractic manipulations. The risks of this treatment by far outweigh its benefit.

In conclusion, numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic neck manipulations. There are reasons to suspect that under-reporting is substantial and reliable incidence figures do not exist. The risks of chiropractic neck manipulations by far outweigh their benefits. Healthcare professionals should advise the public accordingly.

...and this is exactly what I do.

Medicine has been around for centuries. Your profession has been in existence since the 1890s when D.D. Palmer founded it. It's nothing more than pseudoscience and always will be. The "turf war" is that the more you try to separate yourself from the crazy ideas "innate intelligence, vitalism, etc.. " and embrace MSK therapy, rehab, etc.. the more you become a PT. Well... we've already got PT's and PT schools for a reason. It's not a turf war at all. The medical community will always refer to a PT for MSK rehab and any manipulation, period. We respect those guys and it's evidence based. We're never going to refer to a Chiropractor, so you guys are stuck continuing to convince the uneducated patients that they need you without the support of the medical scientific community.

yikes!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Groove,

A few thoughts:

1. As is clear from my post history, I have no animosity toward PTs and I respect the profession. So I'm not one for the "us vs. them" arguments.

2. You are correct that PT is of course more trusted by medical physicians, as PT is part of the medical education system. PT is more or less the default option for MSK conditions.

3. I'll assume you are a resident, as your name info states. For this reason, I'll give you a pass when you say that "we're never going to refer to a chiropractor", because DCs do get referrals from MD/DOs. You can't be faulted for your lack of experience, but some day you will realize that some patients (let's stick with neck and back pain patients for the moment) just won't improve with the usual medical/PT care. The research is clear about this, and anyone with more a few years of experience knows this. DCs can help patients who have failed other forms of treatment.

4. The suggestion that the chiropractic profession has not advanced since the days of DD Palmer is obviously ridiculous, so I won't say any more about that assertion.

5. You stated "Personally, I think Chiropractic therapy is voodoo and I find no sustainable or persuasive evidence to convince me otherwise." This type of statement is always a giveaway that one has not done much searching for said evidence. Right now, I'm putting you in that camp. Perhaps you'll convince me otherwise, but I doubt it.

6. You mentioned "evidence based". Somehow, I get the impression that your anti-chiropractic sentiments have little to do with evidence. If it's evidence that will change your mind about chiropractic, then you will change your mind, because there is considerable evidence for what chiropractors do.

7. I will agree that clinging to certain historical tenets on the part of some DCs has clouded the issue. You mentioned "innate intelligence, vitalism, etc." as examples. While we could quibble about the value of these historical concepts, I understand your point.

I'll address some of your other points, particularly the stroke issue, when time allows, hopefully tomorrow.
 
Groove,

As to the stroke issue, this is almost without exception blown out of proportion. Yes, a single stroke is one too many etc. But proportion is key here. Manipulation-related stroke is extremely uncommon, and in fact it is so rare that it has proven difficult to study. In other words, it is extremely safe.

This type of stroke can also happen spontaneously, completely unrelated to spinal manipulation. Documented case studies involve such things as stargazing, having one's hair washed at a salon sink, turning the head to reverse while driving, turning the head while conducting an orchestra, and other everyday activities (well, orchestra conducting isn't exactly everyday, but you know what I'm saying).

I can remember reading of a case where a guy sitting in the DC's waiting room, waiting to be seen for the initial visit, suffered a stroke...right there in the waiting room before anyone even touched him. Imagine if that stroke had occurred 15 minutes later, or an hour or 24 hours later; the chiro would certainly have been blamed.

Also, it is noteworthy that there have been many published cases of these strokes in the literature that, although they were attributed to 'chiropractic manipulation', have been subsequently proven to have nothing to do with chiropractic at all. Several such analyses have been published.

As to the study you cited, the author is a guy named Ernst, who has been an outspoken critic of chiropractic for some time now. I guarantee you he went to the ends of the Earth to find all the cases he could, and he found...26...ever. It is also noteworthy that Ernst is obviously heavily biased, and he has even been accused, by previous co-authors who know him no less, of bias and cherry-picking. I'm not trying to divert to an ad hominem attack, but sometimes knowing the source is important.

In 2008, Spine published the most comprehensive study of manipulation-related stroke to date. Not only did the authors find these incidents extremely rare, they found the incidence of this type of stroke to be no different if the patient had visited a chiro or visited an MD around the time of the stroke. Prior studies had only looked at the temporal relationship to having visited a chiropractor and as such blamed the chiropractor for any such strokes. But this study showed it didn't matter if the patient had seen the DC or the MD...the incidence was the same. This has now led to the notion that these patients begin to suffer dissection of the vertebral artery BEFORE seeking care, creating symptoms (neck pain, headaches) for which they then seek care, and causal associations to that care are then made. That study was part of the Task Force issue of Spine, which as you (may or may not) know was a multidisciplinary, multinational group of experts selected to review all the neck pain related literature, over 31,000 research citations and analysis of over 1000 studies.

Groove, you would likely say none of this matters because chiropractic treatment is ineffective voodoo and therefore shouldn't be performed at all. Reviewing the literature would tell you otherwise, and if you are interested you can search out my prior posts that are scattered around these forums (scattered around because there is no central repository within SDN in which to place them). Studies have been published in Spine, British Medical Journal, JMPT, Spine Journal, etc.

(I'll skip over the fact that the evidence in favor of pharmaceuticals for neck and back pain isn't exactly impressive, and that literally thousands of people die each year simply from complications of NSAIDS alone. Let's be honest: who here thinks of NSAIDS as remotely deadly? They are prescribed almost without a thought, yet thousands of people will die from taking them appropriately every year. Remember, proportion.)

The evidence is out there. The more professional position for you to take would be to actually go look instead of simply proclaiming that you "find no sustainable or persuasive evidence to convince" you.

We haven't even talked about low back pain yet, where the evidence is even more overwhelming in favor of chiropractic care. More on that another time...
 
Groove,

The evidence is out there. The more professional position for you to take would be to actually go look instead of simply proclaiming that you "find no sustainable or persuasive evidence to convince" you.

We haven't even talked about low back pain yet, where the evidence is even more overwhelming in favor of chiropractic care. More on that another time...

Facetguy,

After reviewing the "systematic review" above, I did find it rather weak.....Systematic reviews are usually considered the highest level of critically appraised and unbiased evidence. I had never read or heard of a systematic review of "cases" before. But....oh well. Obviously there is a risk vs. reward for many treatments. Clearly, practitioners have to weight those risks against the potential outcome. Is there screening process used by chiro to ensure the patient is safe....PMhx, bruit, lipids, vitals...ect?

Also interested in hearing more about the favorable literature regarding chiropractic care of LBP.

Although I don't consider myself a junkie on LBP....I'm willing to share my professional opinion on the management of LBP. I read a few years back and have been influenced by some of the research I have read.....keeping it simple...my current professional opinion regarding LBP and reliable treatment is as follows...

Correcting a leg length issue can be helpful. Also, correcting pathokinetics of the foot can help, but with a weaker correlation.... (more professional experience than based on research I have read).

Most (like 80-90%) LBP resolves on its own spontaneously with or without treatment. A major confounding factor in any research of LBP.

The meta-analysis that I think has some validity... compares chiro vs PT vs general practitioner and concludes (as I remember) that they are all only slightly effective, but chiro is no more effective than the PT who is no more effective than the general practitioner. So they all help a little in treating LBP, but....questionable about how meaningful any of this treatment is in resolving or curing the current complaint.

Regarding control of pain....opiates/NSAIDS were the only effective short and long term pain management of moderate or serious back pain.

And exercise (particularly core strength that addresses posture) is the only reliable and effective means of preventing or managing recurrent LBP that is not associated with visceral/CA/ect

And there is a population of LBP patients who just don't seem to find meaningful results with anybody.

and of course...anecdotal results that are amazing, but just don't seem to be reproducible in the greater LBP population at large.

Epidurals/laminectomy/surgery can be helpful for indicated pathology.

Again I'm not a junkie on LBP, but I do know that you can find research to support anything you want on this particular issue. Treatment of LBP is a bit mysterious and elusive as far as I'm concerned, making it an easy target for folks with quick easy remedies.... I believe the above came from some fairly credible, critically appraised, filtered research.

I don't want to box myself in or entrench myself in a belief system.

I would be interested in the chiropractic perspective and insight.

Sorry I don't have any citations....no time for a research review. Just interesteded in discussion.
 
Facetguy,

After reviewing the "systematic review" above, I did find it rather weak.....Systematic reviews are usually considered the highest level of critically appraised and unbiased evidence. I had never read or heard of a systematic review of "cases" before. But....oh well. Obviously there is a risk vs. reward for many treatments. Clearly, practitioners have to weight those risks against the potential outcome. Is there screening process used by chiro to ensure the patient is safe....PMhx, bruit, lipids, vitals...ect?

There are no reliable predictive factors. We were always taught about the various screening/positional tests, and I still do them. But the research has shown that none of them is very helpful. From a medico-legal standpoint, it's certainly better to have them in your records, but that's a different story. There's some evidence linking elevated homocysteine to increased stroke risk, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it. There's also some literature about birth control pill use (by the patient, not the doctor;)) as a risk factor. With the thought shifting more toward a stroke-in-evolution when the patient presents, more emphasis should be on recognizing these signs.

Also interested in hearing more about the favorable literature regarding chiropractic care of LBP.

If I get some time, I'll link to some representative studies. I've linked to many at various places on SDN if you are so inclined.

Although I don't consider myself a junkie on LBP....I'm willing to share my professional opinion on the management of LBP. I read a few years back and have been influenced by some of the research I have read.....keeping it simple...my current professional opinion regarding LBP and reliable treatment is as follows...
Correcting a leg length issue can be helpful. Also, correcting pathokinetics of the foot can help, but with a weaker correlation.... (more professional experience than based on research I have read).

Makes sense to me.

Most (like 80-90%) LBP resolves on its own spontaneously with or without treatment. A major confounding factor in any research of LBP.

This has always been the thought, but this has been changing over the past 5-10 years. Both neck and low back pain are now known to frequently go on to be chronic/recurrent in significant percentages of cases. I've got good references for these from good journals...I'll try to post them another time. Just as importantly, many patients will see their pain improve, yet their dysfunction will remain (assessed by EMG, for example), setting them up for future episodes. So a reduction in pain doesn't always mean a reduction in risk.

The meta-analysis that I think has some validity... compares chiro vs PT vs general practitioner and concludes (as I remember) that they are all only slightly effective, but chiro is no more effective than the PT who is no more effective than the general practitioner. So they all help a little in treating LBP, but....questionable about how meaningful any of this treatment is in resolving or curing the current complaint.

This speaks to the larger issue that always gets missed when the topic of chiropractic comes up. The bottom line is NOBODY does all that great with these patients. Not DCs, not PTs, not PCPs, not pain guys, not surgeons, and on and on. For someone to say that DCs only have a limited beneficial effect is to completely miss the point that every form of treatment has limited beneficial effect. (I'm not accusing you of saying that, by the way.) Some folks simply believe that there is a good answer for all these patients, and that that answer lies in medicine and PT only. The evidence is clear that this is simply not the case. Yes, I can point to studies where usual medical care is worse than chiro care, or studies where chiro is better than PT. But I don't like to use those studies as a sledgehammer because the truth is we all fail a good portion of these patients. (Don't get me wrong: I will use studies like that to prove my point when necessary and to bring the anti-chiro folks down to earth).

Regarding control of pain....opiates/NSAIDS were the only effective short and long term pain management of moderate or serious back pain.
And exercise (particularly core strength that addresses posture) is the only reliable and effective means of preventing or managing recurrent LBP that is not associated with visceral/CA/ect

And there is a population of LBP patients who just don't seem to find meaningful results with anybody.

and of course...anecdotal results that are amazing, but just don't seem to be reproducible in the greater LBP population at large.

Epidurals/laminectomy/surgery can be helpful for indicated pathology.

Again I'm not a junkie on LBP, but I do know that you can find research to support anything you want on this particular issue. Treatment of LBP is a bit mysterious and elusive as far as I’m concerned, making it an easy target for folks with quick easy remedies.... I believe the above came from some fairly credible, critically appraised, filtered research.

I don't want to box myself in or entrench myself in a belief system.

I would be interested in the chiropractic perspective and insight.

Sorry I don't have any citations....no time for a research review. Just interesteded in discussion.
 
Regarding control of pain....opiates/NSAIDS were the only effective short and long term pain management of moderate or serious back pain.

No doubt meds can be helpful for at least some patients with back pain. But they are far from perfect and wrought with side effects. And I would disagree that they are the "only" effective way to manage LBP. The literature has shown, for example, short- and long-term benefits of spinal manipulation for LBP.

And exercise (particularly core strength that addresses posture) is the only reliable and effective means of preventing or managing recurrent LBP that is not associated with visceral/CA/ect

Exercise is the only thing shown to actually prevent LBP. I again would disagree a bit about the management aspect.

And there is a population of LBP patients who just don't seem to find meaningful results with anybody.

Sadly, true.

and of course...anecdotal results that are amazing, but just don't seem to be reproducible in the greater LBP population at large.
Epidurals/laminectomy/surgery can be helpful for indicated pathology.

Helpful, yes. Miracle cures? No way. Speaking of anecdotes, we all know patients who have had back surgery who are now worse off than they had been pre-surgery. And with regard to interventional pain mgmt. measures, for which I do refer patients, there are certainly no guarantees of improvement.

Again I'm not a junkie on LBP, but I do know that you can find research to support anything you want on this particular issue. Treatment of LBP is a bit mysterious and elusive as far as I’m concerned, making it an easy target for folks with quick easy remedies.... I believe the above came from some fairly credible, critically appraised, filtered research.
I don't want to box myself in or entrench myself in a belief system.

I would be interested in the chiropractic perspective and insight.

Sorry I don't have any citations....no time for a research review. Just interesteded in discussion.

Treatment of LBP is a bit mysterious and elusive, probably because in many cases we don't really understand what is causing the pain. Things do seem to be shifting away from the purely structural/anatomical focus to more of a function/dysfunction focus. As such, PT and chiro play key roles in treating these people.
 
Facet, I don't even have time to address all your issues. Look, you're obviously a DC who takes pride in what they do, be satisfied with that, and with whatever pt satisfaction you are gaining. You will never gain the respect of the overall medical community. Your research methodology and evidence based approach is flawed on so many levels and rudimentary at best when compared to the degree, depth, quality and sheer quantity of medical research. You'll simply have to live with that. I'll never refer to a DC, period.The vast majority of medical doctors feel the same.
 
Facetguy

I don't want to make unreasonable comments, but I have a hard time following some of your logic and how you draw conclusions. The link you provide .....leaves a little to be desired..

you have me really curious now..

So if a patient comes in and you hear a carotid bruit....you manipulate their neck?

You do seem a little out of tune regarding the screening of patients who are hypercoaguable..... or just patients who report syncope/near syncope with back/neck extension (b/c of occlusion of the vertebral artery, especially in older folks)..

I have to admit. You have me a little worried.
 
I'lll jump in once more to make one succinct educated point.

Look, be it anecdotal or voodoo but I myself went to numerous MD's/DO's (about 5) & Ortho's & Neuro's & was told "live w/ the low back pain,etc." as its not a candidate for surgery. After muscle relaxants, etc. I had GI probs. So it looks as Allo meds failed me BIGTIME.

Then, I go to a couple diff. DC's & find one that adjusts w/ enough force yet subtle enough to alleviate (almost immediately) my tightness/spasm & pain. Don't ask what he did, we have no clue, but I felt BETTER. Isn't THAT what a pt. cares of? ALL this BS re: titles or the like, look, bottomline is if a pt. gets/feels better & you've ENHANCED their qual. of life then you ARE a healer.

Call yourself a shamin or witchdoctor, IDK, but THE end result is proof is in the pudding. Sorry to be ticked off here but this DC bashing is unreal from supposed 'med pro's to be' that only really makes you look as juveniles in high school jealous of Johnny's mom's new car or threatened that your livelihood of "cash cow flow" (via unsuspecting desperate pt's going Allo to get "help" :mad: - I was ONE, ahem) being lost, God forbid...to a lowly, lowly, DC.

Think out what I said rather than just go off half baked vs ANY profession including your car mechanic. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Facet, I don't even have time to address all your issues. Look, you're obviously a DC who takes pride in what they do, be satisfied with that, and with whatever pt satisfaction you are gaining. You will never gain the respect of the overall medical community. Your research methodology and evidence based approach is flawed on so many levels and rudimentary at best when compared to the degree, depth, quality and sheer quantity of medical research. You'll simply have to live with that. I'll never refer to a DC, period.The vast majority of medical doctors feel the same.

Groove, try telling that "you won't ever refer to DC's" to 1/2 of your pt.'s (mostly older & thus open to alt. medicine) & watch 1/2 of them leave. Real smart, pro move to build a practice. :idea:

Unreal you guys get thru med school but have the common sense of ants in day to day function.
 
Facetguy

I don't want to make unreasonable comments, but I have a hard time following some of your logic and how you draw conclusions. The link you provide .....leaves a little to be desired..

you have me really curious now..

So if a patient comes in and you hear a carotid bruit....you manipulate their neck?

You do seem a little out of tune regarding the screening of patients who are hypercoaguable..... or just patients who report syncope/near syncope with back/neck extension (b/c of occlusion of the vertebral artery, especially in older folks)..

I have to admit. You have me a little worried.

It's good to be curious.

What I'm saying is that there are many proposed ways to 'screen' patients to try to 'catch' those who may be at risk for vertebrobasilar compromise. You can do those tests, and find that the 'positives' never go on to suffer any type of CVA yet the 'negatives' might. These tests aren't reliable in a false negative or false positive way. Having said that, if a patient comes to me and says "every time I extend and rotate my head to the left, I feel nauseous and almost fall down", I ain't manipuating that guy's neck.

You can quit worrying. Besides, a patient has as much risk of stroking out whether they see me or you (well, if you were an MD).

I'm not sure to which link you are referring.

http://blog.evidenceinmotion.com/evidence/files/childs_jospt_2005.pdf
FYI: "recent evidence suggests that the amount of strain on the vertebral arteries during manipulation is similar to, or lower than, the strain recorded during routine range-of-motion testing and other diagnostic testing procedures.67 The force associated with manipulation also appears to generate only a fraction of the strain necessary to result in vertebral artery failure, indicating that most patients should easily tolerate the forces imparted during cervical manipulation.67 Serious complications have also occurred following mobilization procedures,28,29,49 suggesting that the speed and amplitude of the technique used (ie, manipulation versus mobilization) may not be the only consideration necessary for prudent decision
making."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922236
Screening tests aren't helpful
 
Last edited:
Facet, I don't even have time to address all your issues. Look, you're obviously a DC who takes pride in what they do, be satisfied with that, and with whatever pt satisfaction you are gaining. You will never gain the respect of the overall medical community. Your research methodology and evidence based approach is flawed on so many levels and rudimentary at best when compared to the degree, depth, quality and sheer quantity of medical research. You'll simply have to live with that. I'll never refer to a DC, period.The vast majority of medical doctors feel the same.

Groove, you are a person who apparently believes that s/he is more familiar with the neck/back pain literature than s/he actually is. You're busy with all the stuff you are familiar with, so I'm not saying you're some kind of slacker or something. I am saying that it doesn't do much good to talk evidence-based practice when you don't know the evidence.

I'll remind you that a number of the studies that speak to the benefits of chiropractic care aren't even done by chiropractors.

And don't mix my words. I've never claimed that chiropractic-related research is somehow deeper or of higher quantity than that of medicine in toto. Medicine is just a tad broader in scope than chiropractic, wouldn't you say? Now, if we are going to be completely honest here, you should acknowledge that at least some of that medical research is majorly flawed, which isn't something I'm saying but something your colleagues are saying. The big problem is that, sometimes, when medical research turns out to be wrong, lots of people die as a result. As your career advances, you'll develop a broader view and better understanding of these things.
 
If you've got access to the full version of this paper, it's well worth the read and echoes what I've said about the fact that no method of treatment for LBP has a stellar track record:
http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/abs/10.2217/ijr.11.13

(I read it through Medscape, where it is available free)

This review paper reminds folks (like Groove) that treating LBP isn't as straightforward as one might initially think. To selectively pick out one of these many treatments, in this case spinal manipulation, and then say that particular treatment is so much worse than any other is ill-informed and unscientific. And dishonest.

If you prescribe medications, you are on equal footing to prescribe chiropractic care. If you prescribe PT, then you are on equal footing to prescribe chiropractic care. Et cetera. It's that simple.
 
So you went to 4 years of school to be as effective as ibuprofen? Kind of doesn't seem worth it...

That's one of your favorite lines...it shows up in threads like this frequently. As I've told you before, that's a bit of an oversimplification.
 
Neat, I post for the first time in like a year, and "it's one of my favorite lines."

And no, actually it's not an oversimplification. Your summary of the effectiveness of various treatments for mechanical LBP without radiculopathy is accurate. Chiro = PT = ibuprofen. Flexeril is a little less effective than all three.

Granted, "LBP" is clearly not a single entity, and so it's not entirely fair to lump all cases together when the pain generators are coming from different anatomic locations in different people. But given that your field still uses nonsensical hand-waving phrases like "vertebral subluxation" and "segmental dysfunction", I think the overall conclusion stands that science and chiropractics don't really have much to do with each other.

So it's Advil for everyone then? You might want to contact all the major newspapers and perhaps the NEJM, as it appears you just solved the world's LBP problems. :thumbup:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Tired,

Wait, are you saying PT is as effective as NSAIDS? I thought through reading this thread that you were pro PT..?



+Sloth
 
I am saying that, according to the meta-analyses that have been done on the topic, NSAIDs are approximately as effective as Physical Therapy in the setting of LBP without radiculopathy. It's not an insult, it's science.

LBP is an interesting phenomenon. It's really a combination of multiple entities that produce similar (though not identical) symptoms. In that respect, facetguy is correct. Anyone who thinks that it's a simple problem that is easy to treat is wrong. You have to dig deep, do a very thorough physical exam, assess medical and psychiatric comorbidities, and make decisions accordingly. You also need to be heavily involved in the "communication" aspects of medicine, setting expectations with patients early, explaining why imaging is rarely indicated, and encouraging regular physical activity especially core strengthening. You have to be open to alt med therapies when you deal with these patients, because they are going to look to you for recommendations on what might help. With patients, when they ask about chiro, I briefly summarize the literature showing that it is helpful, or at least better than nothing, and I never discourage them from seeking chiropractic care (though I do warn them that their DC's interpretation of their xrays will be different than mine, and I don't order MRIs based on a chiropractor's assessment).

That's how I deal with patients. But this isn't a patient message board, it's a professional board.

And you were doing so good...until you said:

The truth is that chiropractors, despite their marketing materials, are not "back pain experts." They operate on a fundamentally flawed philosophy and a failure to understand the concept of "normal variant" in human anatomy. Their "manipulation" is really just therapeutic massage. And they have the unfortunate habit of delving into other areas of medicine, with disasterous results. One of our local DCs has extensive materials in his office telling people about the "danger" of vaccines. This is absurd, but not particularly uncommon in a profession that gives minimal attention to the scientific method.

OK. Clearly you are biased against DCs. We all get that. But you don't get to just make stuff up.

"A failure to understand the concept of normal variant in human anatomy"? I'm having a failure to understand what that's even supposed to mean. You'll need to explain that one. And I'm pretty sure most chiropractors are well versed in anatomy.

"Their manipulation is really just therapeutic massage"? Dude, you're disappointing me here. I thought you'd at least have some basic grasp on articular neurophysiology. Are you seriously saying that you can't see a difference between massage and manipulation? I'm even willing to give you a pass on not being familiar with the literature, but even superficially?

The anti-vaccine issue is part of an ever-decreasing minority of the profession.

As to the scientific method, there is more quality research as it relates to chiropractic, admittedly much of it focused on spinal manipulation, than ever. The 'evidence-based practice' issue has already been mentioned as it relates to all of healthcare, not just chiropractic. You appear to be stuck in the time period of a generation or two ago, when there was little available science/evidence related to chiro. Keep up with the tour.;)

Then, in the final moments of your post, you once again come to your senses and say:

So yes, I am on the side of the PTs, because they are really good at what they do. But when it comes to back pain specifically, none of us are very good, which explains the equivalency that keeps popping up in the larger back pain studies.

But you still have that unfortunate bias which somehow allows you to refer to PT (which isn't a bad thing because I do it too), allows you to recommend meds, yet prevents you from referring patients to a DC for something like non-specific LBP. How do you square that and remain true to an evidence-based stance?
 
Tired,

Wait, are you saying PT is as effective as NSAIDS? I thought through reading this thread that you were pro PT..?



+Sloth

Ole Tired is just worn out on sophistry, inventing strawmen to validate his points & in general full of contentious, trite bs for the sake of being argumentative. Read his stuff throughly & see marked contradictions throughout. Yes, evidence-based my friend is NOT your forte as your no closer to it via these statements then the drunk at the bar. :rolleyes:

You ought try politics if meds doesn't suit your fancy. Perhaps there you'll find your TRUE calling. :laugh:
 
You sure? Because here's my major issues:

(1) The "vertebral subluxation". These are clinically irrelevant, normal variants of spinal anatomy. They do not cause pain, they do not influence neurologic function, they are meaningless. Most importantly, when you "manipulate" these segments, you aren't actually doing anything to the underlying anatomy. Yes, I'm calling it massage. When you massage someone, you stimulate local blood flow and release endorphins. It feels good. That's it.

Ah, I think I understand where you're going off-track. In your mind, this "vertebral subluxation" is a bone which supposedly appears out of place on an xray? Is that right? And then along comes the DC and "pops it back in" and all is healed?

That's the antiquated version, my friend. Back in the day, that was the simple model that DCs operated under because there was no developed science to say otherwise. Today, of course, there is. Sure, DCs back then were able to help people too; they just had a rudimentary explanation as to why. Not much different than the early days of medicine.

Now, to your point about manipulation not "actually doing anything to the underlying anatomy". As you noted in an earlier post, LBP is actually many things, and indeed sometimes altered anatomy (e.g., herniated disc, fracture, etc) is the source of the problem. But in most cases (the literature is clear about this), the problem is altered function, not altered structure/anatomy. Looking for only structural problems (such as having an MRI return as normal and telling the patient "there's nothing wrong with you") will never get the job done. You should be thinking more functional.

By the way, since when does Advil do anything to the undelying anatomy?:rolleyes:

(2) I am military,
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
and on my base there are chiropractors. It's free, so a lot of my patients end up seeing them. For every one who has a good experience, another one comes back to me for a CT scan because the DC told him that his Grade I spondylolisthesis is potentially unstable. I spend far too much time trying to reassure patients that spondylolysis and low-grade spondylolisthesis does not mean that they will paralyzed next time they go run. Maybe this is a local problem, but I kind of doubt it.

Every DC understands that there are active/symptomatic spondys and inactive/asymptomatic spondys. You seem to be saying that the DCs on your base see the spondy and somehow panic and blame everything on that. I'm telling you that's not the case. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with doing some additional assessment on a patient whose condition might be related to their spondylolisthesis or who isn't responding to treatment as expected. Especially in a patient population that is running a lot and carrying heavy packs on their backs. Should it be every patient? Of course not. But when warranted, it should be done. Quite frankly, I'd trust the opinion of a DC in this case over yours.

(3) But setting all that aside, here's my biggest issue: You guys have been around a really long time, and many of you freely ackowledge that a lot of the early philosophy was wrong. Same deal for the allopaths. But unlike us, you haven't really replaced it with anything. We did empiric studies, and that altered our underlying understanding of the body. The studies that you guys do are really just attempts to justify the core of your field (manipulation). But if manipulation grew out of a foundational theory that is wrong, why should we take empiric studies seriously? Demonstrating effectiveness is only half of the game, the other half is providing a reasonable, testable theory on why it works. Your field emphasizes the former, and tries to ignore the latter. And that's unacceptable. Let me show you what I'm talking about:

As I implied earlier, I don't expect you to be on top of all the manipulation-related research that has happened in recent decades and continues to happen as we speak. But then you leap to the notion that, because you personally don't know about it, it must not exist! Rumsfeld would put you squarely in the "unknown unknowns" category; you don't even know you don't know it! Step out of your world for a moment and realize there are things out there you don't know. I'm not saying you're incapable of knowing or understanding them; I am saying you haven't encountered them along your path as yet.

The model for why manipulation works has evolved tremendously, despite the (not unexpected) rudimentary models of old. That the old timers couldn't have understood all we understand today is not something to fault them for. Far from trying to ignore the "why", much of the research today is focused precisely on that. Of course, we needed outcomes studies, effectiveness studies, cost-effectiveness studies and the like because today's healthcare environment demands that. But make no mistake; there is a lot going on to try to figure out what causes (for example) LBP and functional instability and how chiropractic care (including manipulation) affects these problems. As I stated previously, much of this research isn't even being done by DCs, but it relates to what we do in our offices every day.

Sometime in early 2012, I believe, an entire issue of the Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology will be dedicated to chiropractic-related science because the editor of that journal, an MD/PhD named Solomonow (an important name in this area of research) became aware of this work and felt it important enough to publish in his journal.

Suffice it to say, the model is evolving everyday.

(more later)


"Articular neurophysiology." Let me guess, you manipulate the joint, this alters the signals put out by the nerves, affecting pain perception and visceral function.

You know what that sounds like? If you stomp on the foot of a guy who has a stomachache, his stomach doesn't hurt as much. That's not a treatment for a disease, it's a childhood game, so it doesn't need the fancy name. Manipulation is a quick foray into the gateway nature of pain perception, and wears off really quick. And no, it doesn't affect visceral function.



I get that there are studies, but like I said, they are empiric and outcome-based. Your field needs foundation and theory, all the moreso because the "effects" your studies are finding are relatively small.
 
Agree with Tired. Ironically, I've been too tired to succinctly sum up what he has done so eloquently.

Facet.. again, back to my original point. Medicine today is "evidence-based", that's simply referring to "evidence" gained from the scientific method to help guide clinical management and decision making. Your field has no such unified approach to standardizing your management because.... you simply have a paucity of research and as has been stated, your field can't even agree amongst themselves in developing a unified theory of how chiropractic or spinal manipulation really actually works. You simply have a methodology of managing symptoms that seems to help some patients but you really don't understand why. Yet, you expect the respect and support of the medical community? Well... you don't have it. The majority of physicians all think you guys are quacks and if you are getting many referrals, believe me... it's in an attempt to get rid of the chronic pain pt's which can be difficult (understatement) to deal with. What, pray tell, are you actually doing for the pt with a moderately severe C5/6 disc herniation with radiculopathy? Are you going to manipulate his neck and bring him back multiple times over for some mild symptomatic relief? It's a pathological defect that needs focused therapy or surgical intervention. You can't perform invasive procedures, give steroid injections, perform surgery, or prescribe medications. You are nothing more than a glorified masseuse in my opinion with no clear understanding of why your "manipulations" actually work. You are not working in conjunction with medical doctors for rehabilitation or therapy of any kind, unlike PT's.

Capo... I'm an ER doc, so I really don't have a practice to worry about, so no... I could care less what my pt's think about my opinion on chiropractors. Back pain to me is rarely an emergency, so I'd rather not treat it in the ER if at all possible. If they have back pain with a fracture, either pathologic or acutely traumatic, etc... then they get seen by an orthopedist for evaluation and potential surgical intervention. If they have an associated new neurological deficit, then they get evaluated by a neurosurgeon for again... potential therapeutic or surgical intervention. I've worked in 6 hospitals and never seen a back pain, neck pain, etc.. referred to a chiropractor. They usually get referred either to an ortho physician or an anesthesiology trained pain specialist, both of which are much more qualified to evaluate them. Now... you can gladly take the chronic drug seekers showing up in the ED with chronic back pain, demanding narcotics and MRI's. Please, by all means take them off my hands. I guarantee you, those are probably the referrals you are getting, but it's not by an MD who believes anything of what you do is based on scientific reason. While you're at it, can you take all my fibromyalgia patients too?
 
Last edited:
Agree with Tired. Ironically, I've been too tired to succinctly sum up what he has done so eloquently.

Facet.. again, back to my original point. Medicine today is "evidence-based", that's simply referring to "evidence" gained from the scientific method to help guide clinical management and decision making. Your field has no such unified approach to standardizing your management because.... you simply have a paucity of research and as has been stated, your field can't even agree amongst themselves in developing a unified theory of how chiropractic or spinal manipulation really actually works. You simply have a methodology of managing symptoms that seems to help some patients but you really don't understand why. Yet, you expect the respect and support of the medical community? Well... you don't have it. The majority of physicians all think you guys are quacks and if you are getting many referrals, believe me... it's in an attempt to get rid of the chronic pain pt's which can be difficult (understatement) to deal with. What, pray tell, are you actually doing for the pt with a moderately severe C5/6 disc herniation with radiculopathy? Are you going to manipulate his neck and bring him back multiple times over for some mild symptomatic relief? It's a pathological defect that needs focused therapy or surgical intervention. You can't perform invasive procedures, give steroid injections, perform surgery, or prescribe medications. You are nothing more than a glorified masseuse in my opinion with no clear understanding of why your "manipulations" actually work. You are not working in conjunction with medical doctors for rehabilitation or therapy of any kind, unlike PT's.

Capo... I'm an ER doc, so I really don't have a practice to worry about, so no... I could care less what my pt's think about my opinion on chiropractors. Back pain to me is rarely an emergency, so I'd rather not treat it in the ER if at all possible. If they have back pain with a fracture, either pathologic or acutely traumatic, etc... then they get seen by an orthopedist for evaluation and potential surgical intervention. If they have an associated new neurological deficit, then they get evaluated by a neurosurgeon for again... potential therapeutic or surgical intervention. I've worked in 6 hospitals and never seen a back pain, neck pain, etc.. referred to a chiropractor. They usually get referred either to an ortho physician or an anesthesiology trained pain specialist, both of which are much more qualified to evaluate them. Now... you can gladly take the chronic drug seekers showing up in the ED with chronic back pain, demanding narcotics and MRI's. Please, by all means take them off my hands. I guarantee you, those are probably the referrals you are getting, but it's not by an MD who believes anything of what you do is based on scientific reason. While you're at it, can you take all my fibromyalgia patients too?
If you "COULD CARE LESS" about your pt's then "WHY DON'T YOU"? Haha, got you on simple grammer let alone board scores. :p

Secondly, I've personally seen Ortho's & Neuro's myself -- only to be told "live w/ it" as it is NOT a candidate for surg. Thus what relief did I get? I don't care about evidence-based for others -- if -- it WORKS for ME, does this make sense?

Would you care if I gave you a placebo or not, if you felt better from the sugar pill? I assume not. Therefore the same follows that DC's can treat LBP as well in SOME not ALL situations as ANY MD can to relieve pain, etc.

Do we agree on that or does half the aging, baby boomer pop. have to echo this? I rest my case I guess, & best of luck in doing what you do albeit it makes sense to keep an open mind when addressing ANY patient concerns, don't you agree doctor?
 
Secondly, I've personally seen Ortho's & Neuro's myself -- only to be told "live w/ it" as it is NOT a candidate for surg. Thus what relief did I get? I don't care about evidence-based for others -- if -- it WORKS for ME, does this make sense?

Heh... So you're defense of spinal manipulation as a preferred treatment modality for your chronic back pain is....placebo effect? Have at it kid. Those are some expensive sugar pills. Your money might be better spent with hypnotherapy...
 
As a practicing PT, I have to ask: What do chiros think of PTs doing spinal manipulation? Conversely, what do physicians think of PTs doing spinal manipulation?
 
I'm not saying that you all still believe in BOOP, but it would be equally wrong for you to argue that none of you do.

Fair enough. But things are definitely changing, albeit more slowly than some of us would like.

Regardless, whether you consider it a real entity, or you believe that manipulation corrects it, or you view it as a quasi-religious/metaphysical concept not actually descriptive of reality, it doesn't matter. The whole idea is kind of silly, and yet the field remains based on it solidly.

For what it's worth, I never use the term "subluxation". Yes, others still do. There has been some rumblings of making the term "vertebral subluxation" more of a historical reference, mostly because it has been a source of confusion and misunderstanding forever. Having said that, whether or not the "whole idea is kind of silly" depends on how one is defining this "subluxation". As I've already stated, the BOOP idea is antiquity. If we instead define it to reflect newer knowledge in neurophysiology, biomechanics, spinal stability, inflammation, etc, then it's not so silly. This is the direction things are headed. In that regard, the evolving model is very science-based. I'd still like to see a change in terminology.

Altered function, kind of. Some kind of degeneration or injury to the joint causing some kind of altered function, okay. Personally, I don't care about altered function, I care about sites of pain generation. Accurate identification allows for targeted interventions.

No, not "kind of". Most episodes of LBP have no obvious structural source, placing them in the functional category. Now, I'll agree that we may be splitting hairs depending on how we are defining "structural". The current emphasis is on "sub-failure tears" or "microtears", not seen on MRI, for example. Yes, that's structural, but not in the classic sense of being able to point at something on xray/CT/MRI and saying "Bingo, there's your problem, Mrs. Jones". As I suggested earlier, you should be thinking in more functional terms. However, doing so requires a deeper understanding of the issue, which...oh, nevermind.

It's no accident that most of the interventional pain procedures target sensory innervation, be it local anesthetic/steroid, RF, ablation, etc. You can't restore function surgically, and you certainly can't do it with "manipulation."

Aside from "massage" as you've said, are you aware of any manipulation-related research?

It reduces inflammation in the underlying anatomy. So yes, it alters cellular anatomy.

Hmmmm...that's a bit of a stretch, because as I recall you were talking about changing anatomy. I guess you get partial credit for "cellular anatomy". :eyebrow:

Exactly, and that's part of the problem. There are very clear guidelines in my field that outline how to evaluate and manage non-specific low back pain. I follow them; evidently you don't.

From this recent study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334541
"Despite the publication of numerous guidelines calling for evidence-based, standardized approaches to the clinical management of LBP, there is little indication that these guidelines have been followed or adopted by most or primary care providers. One recent analysis of the usual care provided to more than 3500 patients who visited general practitioners for a new episode of LBP revealed that the care provided did not match the care endorsed in international evidence-based guidelines."

Ooops. So much for that.

(more fun later...)

If you're routinely sending "symptomatic" spondylosis for "further evaluation," you're wasting time and money. You're also needlessly worrying your patients, or setting them up with the false expectation that they may require surgery to correct a congenital defect.



All you're really doing here is pretending like your field is unified around a coherrent theoretical model to explain a practice that is effective. Really none of these things are true. Manipulation is somewhat effective for a specific syndrome (LBP), but not particularly more effective than other available treatments (many of which are far less expensive). Many different writers have proposed different models for why manipulation might actually do something, but no significant agreement exists, and many of your fellow DCs (including those prominent in your academic institutions) still adhere to older theories that border on cultish, metaphysical faith-beliefs. In the end, you might do something that provides short-term pain relief.

You're right, I don't actively read the chiropractic journals. I don't even know their names. But I do read more about your field than you think, and you and I both know that I'm hardly the first allopath to summarize the studies on Chiro this way.

I'm not an outlier; I'm pretty much par for the course when it comes to physician opinions on the value of chiropractic manipulation.
 
If you're routinely sending "symptomatic" spondylosis for "further evaluation," you're wasting time and money. You're also needlessly worrying your patients, or setting them up with the false expectation that they may require surgery to correct a congenital defect.

I actually don't think you and I are that far apart on this one. I've already said "further evaluation" should not be routine. Most patients w/ L/S spondylolistheses will do just fine with conservative care. But, you can't disagree with me that there will be those cases for whom conservative care isn't working. For these cases, additional diagnostics are warranted. Surely you are aware that occasionally these patients will need surgery for their spondylolisthesis?

All you're really doing here is pretending like your field is unified around a coherrent theoretical model to explain a practice that is effective. Really none of these things are true.

I'm simply informing you that, while for some reason you'd prefer to believe that the chiropractic profession is frozen in the year 1895, research has been done and continues to be done in an effort to better understand pain, spinal instability, chiropractic's role in clinical management of these patients, the biological effects of spinal manipulation, etc. The old "bone out of place choking off a nerve that is then cured by popping the bone back in place" model is long gone for most of the profession. Sometimes I wonder if the main reason that notion even sticks around is that it is such an easy concept for patients to grasp, therefore it has gotten repeated and repeated. In fact, that concept is so deeply ingrained in our society that even many medical students and physicians continue to believe it, as evidenced by many comments here on SDN.


Manipulation is somewhat effective for a specific syndrome (LBP), but not particularly more effective than other available treatments (many of which are far less expensive).

But not less effective either, and arguably considerably safer than other alternatives. And there are cost-effectiveness studies that have been done, by the way, that wouldn't agree with your assertion on costs.

My last patient today is a good example. She fell about 3 months ago. Saw PCP, got meds, didn't help. Referred to ortho, who referred to PT, which didn't help after about 6 weeks. Her PT, bless their soul, suggested she see a chiropractor. So here she is. We'll see how she does; I hope I can help her. If she fails with me, I'll suggest pain management to see what her injection options are. My point is that not everyone does well with the typical first-line treatments, and as you know some patients don't tolerate meds for one reason or another (or the meds just don't work well, which I find to be fairly frequent and with which the literature agrees). At the very least for this subset of patients, you are doing a disservice by out-of-hand dismissing a trial of chiro care. Doing so goes against the current clinical practice guidelines (of which there are many from around the world).

Many different writers have proposed different models for why manipulation might actually do something, but no significant agreement exists, and many of your fellow DCs (including those prominent in your academic institutions) still adhere to older theories that border on cultish, metaphysical faith-beliefs. In the end, you might do something that provides short-term pain relief.

Yes, there have been any number of theories over the years. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. To the contrary, I think it exemplifies the desire to better understand the human condition and specifically chiropractic's role in the treatment of said humans. As the science evolves, some theories/models fall to the wayside while others take more spotlight. Make no mistake, we know way more, for example, about the effects of spinal manipulation today than we did even a decade or two ago.

And let's not pretend there aren't disagreements or differences of opinion about any number of issues in medicine.

You're right, I don't actively read the chiropractic journals. I don't even know their names. But I do read more about your field than you think, and you and I both know that I'm hardly the first allopath to summarize the studies on Chiro this way.

So, in effect, what you are saying is that you don't read the real science, you simply read and repeat the same ill-informed biased crap that then allows this misinformation to become perpetuated, as we see even in this very thread. I see.

I'm not an outlier; I'm pretty much par for the course when it comes to physician opinions on the value of chiropractic manipulation.

I've been around long enough to have seen quite a shift in attitudes among many MDs as it relates to chiropractic. I'm not saying most MDs are singing our praises from the rooftops. What I'm saying is that, in contrast to the days when an MD would tell a patient they are forbidden to see a DC, I get referrals from MDs all the time now. At the very least, many MDs, when asked by a patient about seeing a chiro, will today say 'give it a shot'. While some of that shift may be due to an increased appreciation for the existence of chiro-related research, I think most of it simply stems from the fact that so many of their patients have been helped in some way by a chiropractor.

Tired, I'm sure you give it your all when you see your patients. Seriously, I don't doubt that. I do wish you'd be a little more true to your evidence-based approach and consider recommending a trial of chiro care for your patients who may benefit. Making that referral is completely consistent with current practice guidelines (which in turn are evidence-based), so you shouldn't feel as though you are taking some great leap of faith in doing so.
 
Yes. I have read the assorted meta-analyses of manipulation effects on LBP (and, as a side note, the similar studies on accupuncture), including the Cochrane review on the subject, and when the mood struck me I picked up a couple of the larger component studies that they cited. I also read that interesting (though scientifically-questionable) study done on the effect of HVLA on hypertension.

I'll agree that the hypertension idea is in it's infancy. It never crosses my mind when I see patients, let alone makes me tell patients that I'll help their hypertension (with manipulation).

No, I do not read the "biomechanical" papers related to manipulation.

And why would you? You're busy doing what you do.

I also do not read articles written solely by DCs, because the profession lacks the scientific street-cred to take too seriously.

Many of the researchers in the field are DC/PhD types. But as I said before, a lot of the research is being done by MDs, PhDs, MD/PhDs, PT/PhDs, etc. The chiro profession isn't nearly as large as the scientific community at large, nor does it get the funding. So, when I cite a paper that shows, for example, that manipulation improves the firing of the multifidus, that study may not have a DC's name anywhere near it; but we'd agree that it directly relates to what I do everyday.

Manipulation has faced significant criticism by both allopaths and the public through the years, and the DCs are a long way from overcoming the question of whether their research is just an attempt to retroactively validate an existing practice that has questionable value.

If there was no chiro-related research, you'd criticize us for that. That there is chiro-related research, you still criticize us! A generation ago, yes, the scientific community could accuse the chiro profession of being quacks...and the chiros had no real research to back it up (millions of satisfied patients notwithstanding). But today, those criticisms ring much more hollow and smack of longstanding bias.

You can accuse me of not having a grasp on the current literature surrounding manipulation and LBP, but you're equating my literature (from the Spine Surgeons, from the therapists, and from the medicine weenies) to your literature (the hand-waving biomechanical studies, the DC-only studies). Do I really have to tell you why I don't equate the two? Yes, there is plenty of fuzzy biomechanical work done in the allopathic field as well, but it doesn't suffer from the aforementioned burden of trying to validate an existing practice.

See above.

So call it arrogance or ignorance, it makes no difference. The onus remains on your field to prove the value of what you do.

Workin' on it. As you'll grant, it's not an overnight thing.

Because the moment even a few of you started accepting (as allopaths have for generations) that the model your practice is based on is fundamentally flawed, you yourselves called into question everything that you do when you see and treat a patient (again, as the allopaths have said since nearly the beginning). That's a hard hole for a field to dig its way out of, but it's hardly unique in modern medicine. Personally, I think cardiology and percutaneous stenting is next, but that's another topic.

I'm not sure why you're stuck on this idea. Let's take the simple example of aspirin, for instance. Using your logic, since there was a day when nobody understood exactly how aspirin worked, no one should ever use or recommend aspirin today. That's how silly your argument is.

Science evolves. Ideas about mechanisms, clinical practices, etc also evolve. Why doesn't that apply to chiropractic?? As I said earlier, for some reason you'd rather believe that chiropractic isn't allowed to advance but must instead remain stuck in the 19th century.

Don't confuse what I said: primary care has clear guidelines that, when followed, are about as effective as any treatment can get. They are also cost effective and avoid an unnecessary stream of worthless L-spine xrays, CT scans, and MRIs (and occassionally bone scans, which I still see some of the old-school Orthopods ordering for reasons that escape my understanding).

But I'll give you half of this one. Most primary care physicians have not adopted these guidelines, and you don't need a study to tell you that, you just need to look around a radiology department waiting room. I'm the first one to hammer them on it. The care that gets provided by primary care physicians is all too often heavy on expensive (and needless) diagnostics, and light on the counseling that really makes a difference. It costs me nothing to talk to patients about core strengthening, the need to take the NSAID every day and not just prn, and the importance of cardiovascular exercise. It takes me an extra five minutes to screen for depression. There is no reason to save yourself an extra few minutes by ordering a 1200 dollar MRI on that non-specific LBP without radicular symptoms that has muscular tenderness on exam.

But if an orthopod can't order that $1200 MRI, are you saying they might actually have to examine the patient?? ;) (Just kidding, of course)
 
Random comment: Drove by a DC office about 10mi from my house today. Sign out front says, "Chiropractic is for disease prevention." No idea what that means.

Hey, who's not in favor of preventing disease? :)

I would guess that DC is referring to the use of exercise, diet/nutrition, stress reduction techniques, etc rather than simply spinal manipulation.

As I know you're aware, our healthcare system needs to do a better job in the disease prevention realm. Every little bit helps.

Maybe. This is one of the big reasons I tend to stay away from a lot of the biomechanical studies (allopathic, osteopathic, chiropractic, whatever); they rarely are able to connect much to clinical findings. Granted, they're not designed to do so, but it limits its useful to me in my current position.

I think more emphasis is placed on the effectiveness/outcomes studies because that's where the rubber meets the road in terms of allowing folks like yourself to make recommendations to patients. The details of mechanisms and the like, I would think, wouldn't be as helpful to you.

Obviously I have a bias. I would like to think that it is based on a combination of expert opinion in my profession, and the series of negative experiences I've had with DCs. But maybe I'm wrong?

Tell you what, when you have time, shoot me like 4 or 5 references that illustrate what you're talking about, and I'll take a weekend to read them. Then we can talk more specifically.

Will do.

Every military patient I have thinks that they need to see Ortho for their back pain. Terrible idea. When it comes to specialist evaluation, I tend to limit it to those with atypical symptoms or pain at rest. My preference is for a couple of the good Interventional Pain Management groups in my area, though I'll occassionally send select patients to a particular Spine Surgery group (pretty rare).

Honestly, the biggest struggle for me is keeping them away from chronic narcotics, but that's a whole other thread in and of itself.

I hope this doesn't sound like ortho-bashing, but I just haven't found where an ortho has been helpful in adding anything for the types of neck/back pain patients I see, unless of course they are an ortho spine surgeon who is rendering an opinion on surgical candidacy or who actually operates on my patient. Knees, shoulders, elbows, etc? Sure. But for spine, I refer much more to pain mgmt docs and PM&R docs.
 
I tend to agree with you, and that's as a person who should be back in his Ortho residency next year (military is weird, I'm a primary care doctor with an internship in Ortho, strange I know). Non-specific LBP has no real place in a general Orthopod's practice. The fellowship-trained spine guys, sure. Everyone else, not so much. They aren't going to operate on them (most of the time), and they don't have time to spend an hour doing counseling on exercise, tobacco, rehab, etc, so why even send them there?

I wish we had a better PM&R group in the area, but no dice. What I really want is a PM&R group who maintains their own PT department. But this is a small enough area that they probably couldn't support themselves.

Because the rest of us don't really want them either.
 
I wish we had a better PM&R group in the area, but no dice. What I really want is a PM&R group who maintains their own PT department. But this is a small enough area that they probably couldn't support themselves.

PM&R is the way to go, but many can't find their way to care, so they go to Ortho, Chiro, and/or pain management.
 
Tell you what, when you have time, shoot me like 4 or 5 references that illustrate what you're talking about, and I'll take a weekend to read them. Then we can talk more specifically.

I was putting together a few references when I came upon this article:
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/...php?id=54806&no_paginate=true&p_friendly=true

It contains more references than I was going to provide, and conveys the concept better than I would have. The article itself is from a chiropractic newsletter of sorts, not a scientific journal. But it's helpful in understanding portions of the current model we were discussing.

Let me know what you think.
 
Not unless the DPTs figure out a marketing strategy. I am a military primary care physician with internship training Orthopaedics, and I am only vaguely aware of the concept of a DPT. I have my issues with the DCs, but no one can argue with the brillance of their marketing concept.

I think a good portion of the chiropractic profession would argue with that. After all, DCs still see a relatively small % of the population, and most people (including medical folks) still have misunderstandings surrounding chiropractic.

What aspect of our "marketing concept" do you find most brilliant?

(PS Did you have a chance to read that article I linked? Any thoughts?)
 
This probably isn't the best thread in which to post this, but since it's current, why not. (If SDN had a Chiro Forum, I'd post it there :rolleyes:) :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=senna m and manipulation

In current issue of Spine. Finds that chronic LBP patients receiving spinal manipulation do best if they receive periodic maintenance manipulations.

For a little context, chiros are often ripped for their fabled recommendations that patients receive periodic treatments after the initial treatment phase is over. Now, a randomized trial in what is arguably the top spine-related journal in the world says those recommendations have merit. (And let's not overlook the findings that SMT is effective for chronic LBP, period. :))
 
Basically this: Americans have become accustomed to the idea that every problem requires a specialist. Hence my frequent visits from guys who want a Derm referral for poison ivy and acne, a Sports Med referral for an ankle sprain, a Colorectal Surgery consult for hemorrhoids, etc.

Far and away the most common request I get is a chiropractic referral for low back pain. I actually have a number of patients who, despite the availability of a free on-base chiropractor, pay money out of their own pocket to see civilian chiropractors who advertise on TV and billboards.

Chiropractors, at least in the cities I have worked, have set themselves up in the minds of the public as "Back Pain Experts." This, in spite of the fact that no good evidence puts chiro ahead of any other back pain treatment.

That's good marketing, pure and simple.

I think there are 2 issues here. The first is the effectiveness that advertising has for an individual DC. That's really not so surprising and is why the advertising business is a multi-gazillion dollar industry. And for what it's worth, at least in my neck of the woods, it's the hospitals and big corporate-run medical practices that do the TV and billboard advertising.

The second issue is a bit more intriguing. Chiros get hammered (especially here on SDN) if they promote themselves as some sort of generalists who can take care of everything from colds to hypertension to wellness via spinal adjustments; I don't really disagree with that hammering. The more 'responsible' position for a DC to take, it would then seem, would be to promote oneself as one who takes care of back pain, or at least musculoskeletal problems. Or perhaps, as you say, a "back pain expert". Yet, as you imply, this too is an irresponsible position for a DC to take. What is a DC to do? (And "go away completely" is not an acceptable answer! ;)) Does being a "back pain expert" necessarily equate with "I'm getting better results than anyone else treating back pain"? That's sort of what you are saying.

As we've discussed before (and I've discussed throughout SDN many times), no discipline or specialty or treatment 'owns' back pain. We all do more poorly than we'd like. But make no mistake: there is no treatment that can be said to be better than spinal manipulation for the types of cases we're talking about. Equal? Yes. Better? No.
 
I too see the introduction of the DPT degree as the beginning of the end for the DC degree. However, not necessarily the end of the Chiropractic field, which is undergoing its own internal war between traditional "straight" schools and evidence-based "reformed" schools.

In 2011, the Council on Chiropractic Education proposed the following changes for the describing Chiropractic field:

* Adding the words or their equivalent to DC degree programs, thus authorizing the DCM degree;
* Deleting every reference to the word subluxation; and
* Deleting the "without the use of drugs and surgery" provision.

source: http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=54917


National University of Health Sciences and the University of Western States plan to begin offering the DCM degree.

Educational plans for the DCM degree will include a minimum of an additional year beyond the DC program. Clinical training will be expanded to include the diagnostic and therapeutic procedures characteristic of definitive, comprehensive primary care. The setting for the additional education and training will be in a primary care facility where DCM candidates can be exposed to the kind of patient conditions that most commonly require health care intervention. The setting required will be a large group or multidisciplinary practice offering general health care. Professionals licensed to provide primary care will be included in the staffing of these facilities. Conservative treatment protocols will be determined through consensus of DC and MD/DO primary care faculty. First priority will be given to chiropractic and conservative treatment.

source: http://www.dynamicchiropractic.ca/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=41296


Keep in mind that this degree was proposed in the 1990 but never gained support from the American Chiropractic Association and the International Chiropractors Association. Many of the straight chiropractors are furious about the proposed changes.

Chiropractic is under threat. Its very nature may soon be destroyed, subsumed under the mantle of conventional allopathic medicine, complete with its pharmaceutical drugs and surgeries. That threat comes from an agency that should support chiropractic principles, but instead is pushing to merge it with allopathic medicine.

source: http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/20...of-takeover-by-allopathic-medicine-in-the-us/


Thoughts? Do you support the DCM degree? Or is unnecessary?
 
Last edited:
I was putting together a few references when I came upon this article:
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/...php?id=54806&no_paginate=true&p_friendly=true

It contains more references than I was going to provide, and conveys the concept better than I would have. The article itself is from a chiropractic newsletter of sorts, not a scientific journal. But it's helpful in understanding portions of the current model we were discussing.

Let me know what you think.

Did anyone else notice that these references are all about spinal manipulation and not about chiropractic. A PT performing SM would get equivalent results. So given that PTs are evidence based and DCs are quackery based (leg checks, AK, Tofteness meters, questionable claims, etc.) why would anyone want to refer to a DC except in a rural underserved area?
 
Top