PI says he will give me an "okay" letter?

[hrastio24]

I've been having some difficulties in lab and as a result, my PI says he can only give me an okay letter. He says he won't say anything bad but it will be mediocre at best. He's a really honest guy so I believe that there will be nothing negative in the letter. My question is should I still use this letter? I listed him as one of my most meaningful experiences so I'm worried it will be seen as a red flag if I don't. I have another PI letter from a summer internship but he doesn't know me as well and his english isn't that good.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Chemistry>Physics]

What!!! Go for someone else! do you need his letter?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[studentdocftw]

Sure, if you want to come across as an "okay" applicant. Thank your PI for the consideration and honesty..you need another letter.

Alternatively, bust your ass in lab and see if he would be agreeable to writing a letter in the future. You need a strong recommendation, not an "okay" one.

 

[aalamruad]

I've been having some difficulties in lab and as a result, my PI says he can only give me an okay letter. He says he won't say anything bad but it will be mediocre at best. He's a really honest guy so I believe that there will be nothing negative in the letter. My question is should I still use this letter? I listed him as one of my most meaningful experiences so I'm worried it will be seen as a red flag if I don't. I have another PI letter from a summer internship but he doesn't know me as well and his english isn't that good.

Don't use his letter, and be very very glad that he had the balls to be honest with you about the fact that his letter wouldn't be very good

 

[hrastio24]

Don't use his letter, and be very very glad that he had the balls to be honest with you about the fact that his letter wouldn't be very good

Should I still ask for his letter though? I was thinking if med schools ask why I don't have a PI letter I can say that I do have one and can send it to them (even if it's only average).

 

[FutureDrOcean]

Should I still ask for his letter though? I was thinking if med schools ask why I don't have a PI letter I can say that I do have one and can send it to them (even if it's only average).

To put some perspective, I had a PI I did work for a year with, and he was NOT honest, and I found out after he wrote the letter from him that it wasn't very supportive, and I called my committee and had that crap withdrawn and got a letter from a second PI I did work with.

The research with the first PI was much more extensive, and I really wanted a good letter from him. But because it wasn't supportive, I couldn't have that on my application.

My advice, don't take his letter, find someone else. If you get asked about it (which I doubt you would), just have a reasonable explanation for why you have the letters you have instead of a letter from this PI.

 

[Spector1]

run simba!

 

[aalamruad]

Should I still ask for his letter though? I was thinking if med schools ask why I don't have a PI letter I can say that I do have one and can send it to them (even if it's only average).

Nope, just let it go

 

[Law2Doc]

Should I still ask for his letter though? I was thinking if med schools ask why I don't have a PI letter I can say that I do have one and can send it to them (even if it's only average).

Absolutely not. Adcoms assume you'd only ask people to write letters if they'll write something strong. So the typical LOR is expected to be glowing. An "okay" letter stands out in a bad way. It will never help you.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Look at it this way, they may wonder why you don't have a letter (probably not) but if you get the letter, they won't wonder anymore.

Faint praise is an art form. I just read a faint praise letter from a thought leader in my field. Couldn't have done more damage with a goddamn hand cannon.

 

[tilap]

+1 on other letter. You don't want to be just "ok".

 

[Lawpy]

Absolutely not. Adcoms assume you'd only ask people to write letters if they'll write something strong. So the typical LOR is expected to be glowing. An "okay" letter stands out in a bad way. It will never help you.

Look at it this way, they may wonder why you don't have a letter (probably not) but if you get the letter, they won't wonder anymore.

Faint praise is an art form. I just read a faint praise letter from a thought leader in my field. Couldn't have done more damage with a goddamn hand cannon.

Well now i'm stuck on the following paradox. @gonnif had previously pointed out about the AAMC goals of an effective letter of evaluation as opposed to a letter of recommendation. The AAMC initiative would mean faculty should write honestly and objectively about the applicants, even if it involves pointing out some flaws.

Since an okay letter = bad letter, does the AAMC initiative necessarily result in a bad letter? And if so, does it mean adcoms really expect and require a glowing recommendation as opposed to an honest and objective evaluation?

 

[studentdocftw]

Well now i'm stuck on the following paradox. @gonnif had previously pointed out about the AAMC goals of an effective letter of evaluation as opposed to a letter of recommendation. The AAMC initiative would mean faculty should write honestly and objectively about the applicants, even if it involves pointing out some flaws.

Since an okay letter = bad letter, does the AAMC initiative necessarily result in a bad letter? And if so, does it mean adcoms really expect and require a glowing recommendation as opposed to an honest and objective evaluation?

Glowing and honest objective evaluation > Glowing and honest recommendation > No Letter > Mediocre objective evaluation > Mediocre recommendation

I'd imagine the more glowing and objective, the better the letter.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well now i'm stuck in the following paradox. @gonnif had previously pointed out about the AAMC goals of an effective letter of evaluation as opposed to a letter of recommendation. The AAMC initiative would mean faculty should write honestly and objectively about the applicants, even if it involves pointing out some flaws.

Since an okay letter = bad letter, does the AAMC initiative necessarily result in a bad letter? And if so, does it mean adcoms really expect and require a glowing recommendation as opposed to an honest and objective evaluation?

You get to choose your letter writers. So naturally you should only pick those who have given you the sense that their evaluation of you will be a positive one. So yes letter writers are supposed to write honestly and objectively, but there's no reason you shouldn't be picking the guy whose honest objective view of you will be that you are great and belong in the med school of your choosing.

 

[iluvbeingpremed]

The research with the first PI was much more extensive, and I really wanted a good letter from him. But because it wasn't supportive, I couldn't have that on my application.

My advice, don't take his letter, find someone else. If you get asked about it (which I doubt you would), just have a reasonable explanation for why you have the letters you have instead of a letter from this PI.

HOW!!! I'm in a very similar situation and cannot come up with a reasonable explanation in case it comes up...I feel like I can't just be honest here

 

[Gastrapathy]

"I already had a full set of letters and he's soooooo busy that I didn't want to waste his time."

Done. Its a crappy answer but you probably won't get asked anyway.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Well now i'm stuck on the following paradox. @gonnif had previously pointed out about the AAMC goals of an effective letter of evaluation as opposed to a letter of recommendation. The AAMC initiative would mean faculty should write honestly and objectively about the applicants, even if it involves pointing out some flaws.

Since an okay letter = bad letter, does the AAMC initiative necessarily result in a bad letter? And if so, does it mean adcoms really expect and require a glowing recommendation as opposed to an honest and objective evaluation?

If you are writing anything less than a glowing letter, you owe it to the applicant to tell them. I give them the letter to read. Thats a personal choice. I've had one person pass on submitting my letter.

I mean, these same people that write about wanting an evaluation letter will try to parse whether "most strongly recommend" is better than "very strongly recommend" is better than "strongly recommend".

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

To put some perspective, I had a PI I did work for a year with, and he was NOT honest, and I found out after he wrote the letter from him that it wasn't very supportive, and I called my committee and had that crap withdrawn and got a letter from a second PI I did work with.

The research with the first PI was much more extensive, and I really wanted a good letter from him. But because it wasn't supportive, I couldn't have that on my application.

My advice, don't take his letter, find someone else. If you get asked about it (which I doubt you would), just have a reasonable explanation for why you have the letters you have instead of a letter from this PI.

Did he say he would write a strong letter, or otherwise show any signs that he wasn't going to be very supportive? Curious as this is my worst fear and I don't have a committee to double check my letters

 

[efle]

I once had a prof tell me that lack of a letter from someone you did lots of research with is a red flag, but his experience was in grad school PhD applications. Maybe the people with more experience in med admissions can comment on what's worse, an okay letter or a lack of letter at all.

 

[FutureDrOcean]

Did he say he would write a strong letter, or otherwise show any signs that he wasn't going to be very supportive? Curious as this is my worst fear and I don't have a committee to double check my letters

Unfortunately we had a falling out the last semester before my apps. I worked with him through a research course, and he didn't like me not doing enough time on one aspect of the project (but never told me about his concern), so he gave me a B. I called foul and had the school review his decision-making, thus the hard feelings. My committee told me, indirectly, that I should get a different letter after seeing his.

Unfortunate case. This PI was known by undergrads and med students / residents alike as being a total ass.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Doctor-S]

Agree with many of the other posters: do NOT rely on a LOR that is written by someone who (by his own admission) will provide you with an "okay" LOR. Believe the PI's choice of words bcause the LOR might not even be an "okay" LOR. In the end, it might be worse than okay.

It reminds me of being a patient, and the night before surgery, the surgeon looks into the patient's eyes, and simply says: "I feel like performing an 'okay' thoracic aortic dissection repair on you tomorrow, that's all. Take it ... or leave it."

Ummm ... how good does that statement make you feel? Are you still feeling confident that you selected the best surgeon for yourself? Probably not. You get the idea, eh?

Thank you.

 

[Law2Doc]

I once had a prof tell me that lack of a letter from someone you did lots of research with is a red flag, but his experience was in grad school PhD applications. Maybe the people with more experience in med admissions can comment on what's worse, an okay letter or a lack of letter at all.

"Okay letter" is worse. As has been said above, yes a lack of a letter may be seen as suspicious if you clearly have worked extensively with a PI, but the "not great" letter doesn't even leave such red flags to the imagination.

 

[aalamruad]

yes, yes I do indeed have too much time on my hands.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Agree with many of the other posters: do NOT rely on a LOR that is written by someone who (by his own admission) will provide you with an "okay" LOR. Believe the PI's choice of words bcause the LOR might not even be an "okay" LOR. In the end, it might be worse than okay.

It reminds me of being a patient, and the night before surgery, the surgeon looks into the patient's eyes, and simply says: "I feel like performing an 'okay' thoracic aortic dissection repair on you tomorrow, that's all. Take it ... or leave it."

Ummm ... how good does that statement make you feel? Are you still feeling confident that you selected the best surgeon for yourself? Probably not. You get the idea, eh?I

Thank you.

I agree with this. Some of the best non medical advice ever given to me by a physician was about LORs. He said, "when asking for a letter, no matter how bad it makes you look always ask if they would be willing to write an outstanding letter 99% of the time the writer will be upfront with you and tell you whether or not they feel comfortable doing so.

In reality if someone was going write you a bad letter they would usually tell you "I don't feel comfortable writing you a letter". In the off chance you get the one petty as*hole of a professor that will write you a bad letter intentionally, you should have the social skills to read him and know he is going to try to screw you over. Usually unless they are a sociopath, that person will be hostile towards you or avoid you entirely.

 

[Gastrapathy]

It is interesting that they like letters filtered through a committee that doesn't know the applicant to help them interpret letters from people who do know the applicant.

But basically, they just want good letters.

 

[cantankerous]

People who are always completely honest are always complete dinguses. You don't need that in your life.

 

[girlofgrace7]

For what it's worth, I did a number of research projects in undergrad, and I didn't have any PIs write me letters. I did have just an extra letter from the clinical research coordinator at one of my projects. No one asked me about that letter or a lack of one from a PI when interviewing. When I sat on my med school admission committee, I never cared in the slightest whether they had ones from PIs as long as the letters they did have said they were amazing.

 

[raf1ki]

HOW!!! I'm in a very similar situation and cannot come up with a reasonable explanation in case it comes up...I feel like I can't just be honest here

Ask professors you made a connection with if they are able to write you a "strong" letter of recommendation. If they hesitate, don't accept it. Once you have 3-4 strong letters, you won't worry about having that old PI's letter. Nobody will ask you why you don't have a letter from your PI, but if you need to prepare a hypothetical answer to move on, it's "I chose my letter writers for the strength of the letters they offered."

 

[efle]

^ It's much better to go ask in person than over email

 

[jwmd]

How long have you worked with your PI?

I feel that whether or not a lack of a letter will be a red flag falls largely on this. I'm in a very similar situation, having worked with a PI (for a couple of years now), but feeling unsure about the quality of the letter. I think I will just try to gauge whether or not it is positive or negative. If it seems positive, I will send it to just the research-intensive schools, and use my other letters for the rest of my schools. Sounds like you already know it'll be mediocre though.. If you can get other letters, I'd do that. If your other letters might also be around the same strength, then I might send the PI letter to just some schools.

Also, those of you who have gotten in without a PI letter, could you please share how long you did research with your PI, and which school(s) you got into?

 

[mistafab]

If you guys wanted a PhD, you would have to get a letter from your research PI -- no doubt. Med school, not so much.

I once had a prof tell me that lack of a letter from someone you did lots of research with is a red flag, but his experience was in grad school PhD applications. Maybe the people with more experience in med admissions can comment on what's worse, an okay letter or a lack of letter at all.

How long have you worked with your PI?

I feel that whether or not a lack of a letter will be a red flag falls largely on this. I'm in a very similar situation, having worked with a PI (for a couple of years now), but feeling unsure about the quality of the letter. I think I will just try to gauge whether or not it is positive or negative. If it seems positive, I will send it to just the research-intensive schools, and use my other letters for the rest of my schools. Sounds like you already know it'll be mediocre though.. If you can get other letters, I'd do that. If your other letters might also be around the same strength, then I might send the PI letter to just some schools.

Also, those of you who have gotten in without a PI letter, could you please share how long you did research with your PI, and which school(s) you got into?

 

[WheezyBaby]

I have nothing particularly new to add to the discussion. I just want to say you should feel absolutely BLESSED your PI was enough of a stand up individual to be candid with you about your letter. An "okay" letter will tank your application. He just saved you thousands of dollars and a wasted year, potentially more if you didn't realize what your red flag was. You should extend him a sincere thank you for that candor

 

[WutsUpDoc23]

Did not read all the comments so I'm not sure about this, but if OP has a committee sending their letters in, get the letter and let the committee decide (if it's crap, they WILL scrap it, have faith in them). If op's school does not have a pre-health committee, do not take the letter!!!! Hard to believe, but I've personally heard of instances where a single questionable letter was the absolute bane of an entire application. Güd lük

 

[ortnakas]

I'd keep it for the rare application that specifically asks for letters from a researcher and/or employer, if this letter is your only option in that category-- but definitely look for alternatives for the vast majority of applications!

 

[Avicenna]

tell him to stfu and write a good one

 

[benjamin94559]

Dont use this letter. I didnt use a letter from my most meaningufl experiences thing and it didnt hurt me.

 

[jwmd]

Dont use this letter. I didnt use a letter from my most meaningufl experiences thing and it didnt hurt me.

That'd be a decision to make too- whether OP should list research as a meaningful experience..

I feel like this could be a minor issue at the top 20 since they're so into research. The main thing, though, is that here's someone who should be able to write a lot about you and give the med schools a good idea of who you are. My worry is that us not including this letter indicates that someone who 'should' know us and our work ethic well was not asked to contribute a letter. :/