Pittsburgh Zoo to review use of dogs to control elephants

[WildZoo]

I thought penguins were going to be super cranky too. The ones I worked with didn't seem phased I was there. My biggest concern was slipping and falling in the pool in front of the public

Thankfully I never worked in front of people, so when I nearly fell in a duck pool nobody saw it

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[that redhead]

I dunno. I really don't like it when someone else (for example, @pinkpuppy9) declares what risks someone else should be allowed to undertake. I mean, within certain contexts. If a keeper wants to work in physical proximity to an elephant and understands the risks and it's not detrimental to the elephant .......... who am I to tell them not to take that risk? Just seems like more 'moral compassing' to declare that someone else shouldn't do that.

My point of contention is whether or not it's detrimental to the elephant (or animal). Strictly speaking, no physical harm is coming to the animal but there has got to be some level of stress associated with direct contact, especially in a non-domesticated species. If the same results can be achieved without direct contact, I'm not seeing a reason to keep the direct contact.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

My point of contention is whether or not it's detrimental to the elephant (or animal). Strictly speaking, no physical harm is coming to the animal but there has got to be some level of stress associated with direct contact, especially in a non-domesticated species. If the same results can be achieved without direct contact, I'm not seeing a reason to keep the direct contact.

I agree, but there comes a point in time where animals start being placed above their caretakers. I'm not saying you feel this way, but it seems like there's a lot of "I'll do whatever it takes for this animal" and safety can go out the window at that point.

A friend of mine has an interesting view on it: She feels that keepers become an essential part of an elephant herd's social structure, and that removing direct contact would cause emotional stress for the elephants. I personally don't think humans become an integral member of an elephant herd, but there's a whole heck of a lot we don't know about the animals we have in captivity. Typically, direct contact does cause that stress, though. Pittsburgh credits direct contact for their above average reproductive success. I feel like this herd would make a good comparison for other breeding herds with different husbandry practices, but idk exactly what parameters you'd look at. Reproductive hormones/fertility, maybe?

 

[LetItSnow]

My point of contention is whether or not it's detrimental to the elephant (or animal). Strictly speaking, no physical harm is coming to the animal but there has got to be some level of stress associated with direct contact, especially in a non-domesticated species. If the same results can be achieved without direct contact, I'm not seeing a reason to keep the direct contact.

I totally agree that if it's detrimental to the elephant it shouldn't be done. That's why I mentioned advocate for them. My gripe is with the moral compass and its continued insistence on deciding what's best for OTHER people.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I totally agree that if it's detrimental to the elephant it shouldn't be done. That's why I mentioned advocate for them. My gripe is with the moral compass and its continued insistence on deciding what's best for OTHER people.

Get over it, honestly. Like I said, if you have personal experience to back you calling me out like this, I'll listen. Having worked in several zoos and seen how keepers can be treated, all of the near misses that happen, etc., I've formulated my opinion on the situation. You don't have to get so worked up over it and use the attitude you chose.

 

[LetItSnow]

Get over it, honestly. Like I said, if you have personal experience to back you calling me out like this, I'll listen. Having worked in several zoos and seen how keepers can be treated, all of the near misses that happen, etc., I've formulated my opinion on the situation. You don't have to get so worked up over it and use the attitude you chose.

I'm not worked up in the least.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I'm not worked up in the least.

K.

There are ways to participate in a conversation without trying to ridicule a person or do your best to make them feel terrible.

 

[dyachei]

K.

There are ways to participate in a conversation without trying to ridicule a person or do your best to make them feel terrible.

I think you missed the point. It isn't your decision what other people do. It's their decision. More rules aren't necessarily better.

"I'll do whatever it takes for this animal" and safety can go out the window at that point.

what I quoted is a personal decision. It's more important to me, for instance, to help my new vet and aid her in surgery when she's stressed. So, although I'm usually a very compliant patient, I put more weight than I should have on my bad ankle. The dog under anesthesia is more important than my ability to walk on that ankle. I'm the only one to blame.

 

[Cephal0pod]

A friend of mine has an interesting view on it: She feels that keepers become an essential part of an elephant herd's social structure, and that removing direct contact would cause emotional stress for the elephants. I personally don't think humans become an integral member of an elephant herd, but there's a whole heck of a lot we don't know about the animals we have in captivity.

I've been wondering about this as well. I am certainly no elephant behavior expert, but I wouldn't think it's impossible for humans to be integrated in some sense into the elephant herd-- I think one could make the argument that some degree of social acceptance on the part of the elephants is vital for direct contact management to be possible.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think you missed the point. It isn't your decision what other people do. It's their decision. More rules aren't necessarily better.

what I quoted is a personal decision. It's more important to me, for instance, to help my new vet and aid her in surgery when she's stressed. So, although I'm usually a very compliant patient, I put more weight than I should have on my bad ankle. The dog under anesthesia is more important than my ability to walk on that ankle. I'm the only one to blame.

I think there's a difference in irritating an injury for the sake of a patient and playing soccer with a herd of elephants/getting cuddle time in.

 

[dyachei]

I think there's a difference in irritating an injury for the sake of a patient and playing soccer with a herd of elephants/getting cuddle time in.

Talk about condescension/ridicule!

How you speak to people dictates how they will treat you in most cases.

I don't think anyone here was suggesting direct contact to get cuddle time in.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Talk about condescension/ridicule!

How you speak to people dictates how they will treat you in most cases.

I don't think anyone here was suggesting direct contact to get cuddle time in.

http://triblive.com/mobile/8989166-96/zoo-elephants-pittsburgh A picture's worth 1000 words.

Inb4 "Oh, well you don't know the context!" Yes, but this is what the public sees, and media helps form public opinion. Even better that the caption says he is "petting" her.

I never said anyone in this thread was talking about cuddle time, so not sure why you think I'm being offensive.

 

[WildZoo]

Interesting comment from someone who worked at the Knoxville Zoo 2003-2014 (or at least his facebook profile says so):
"The elephant staff at the Pittsburgh Zoo are not the only ones to strongly disagree with the AZA's decision. Most experienced keepers around the country are against it. The AZA held an "information gathering" meeting and 95% of the zoos that have elephants said the decision should be left up to the individual facilities. Than the AZA goes and makes their assinine decision based not on safety as much as pr concerns and financial responsibilities. Hopefully more zoos follow Pittsburgh's lead."

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Interesting comment from someone who worked at the Knoxville Zoo 2003-2014 (or at least his facebook profile says so):
"The elephant staff at the Pittsburgh Zoo are not the only ones to strongly disagree with the AZA's decision. Most experienced keepers around the country are against it. The AZA held an "information gathering" meeting and 95% of the zoos that have elephants said the decision should be left up to the individual facilities. Than the AZA goes and makes their assinine decision based not on safety as much as pr concerns and financial responsibilities. Hopefully more zoos follow Pittsburgh's lead."

Not sure about financial responsibilities, but I get the PR concerns. Any injuries/deaths that occur typically get the "That's why you should have animals in captivity" response from the public. Did a quick search to see if this meeting was posted online, but couldn't find anything.

However, since AZA does a lot with animal transferring, attempting to align husbandry practices isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's probably very hard to do, if not sometimes impossible, since each facility has different people, resources, and buildings.

 

[WildZoo]

Did a quick search to see if this meeting was posted online, but couldn't find anything.

It was mentioned in the original 2011 announcement but they didn't give any details beyond the fact that all the directors of zoos that have elephants and elephant managers were present.

 

[dyachei]

I never said anyone in this thread was talking about cuddle time, so not sure why you think I'm being offensive.

because (and this is quoting you)

playing soccer with a herd of elephants/getting cuddle time in.

I added the bolding.

 

[DVMDream]

I think there's a difference in irritating an injury for the sake of a patient and playing soccer with a herd of elephants/getting cuddle time in.

I definitely strained an eye muscle with how hard I rolled my eyes at this.

You seriously like to exaggerate things to an extreme level. To the point of being dishonest.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I definitely strained an eye muscle with how hard I rolled my eyes at this.

You seriously like to exaggerate things to an extreme level. To the point of being dishonest.

What are you talking about?

 

[DVMDream]

What are you talking about?

You suggesting that what these keepers are doing is nothing more than "cuddle time". It is outright insulting and dishonest. Not only that, it is intentionally so because you damn well know better that that isn't what they are doing.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

You suggesting that what these keepers are doing is nothing more than "cuddle time". It is outright insulting and dishonest. Not only that, it is intentionally so because you damn well know better that that isn't what they are doing.

I think both of you completely missed the point I was making. Let me clarify: There is a difference in causing yourself injury (dy's example) for the sake of a necessary medical procedure than there is getting injured/killed for the sake of play time/bonding/enrichment.

I really think you need to stop approaching every statement I make as "Wow, what an idiot, what did she say now?" It really feels like that's all you do (for several years now), and I think it's a waste of your time. Inb4 some version of "You don't know what you're talking about ever." I'll say again was I said to LIS: If you have your own anecdotal evidence about zoos, management, and keeping practices, I'll gladly listen. Don't jump down my throat because you haven't been in my shoes and experienced what I have.

No longer responding.

 

[DVMDream]

I think both of you completely missed the point I was making. Let me clarify: There is a difference in causing yourself injury (dy's example) for the sake of a necessary medical procedure than there is getting injured/killed for the sake of play time/bonding/enrichment.

No longer responding.

The way you stated it was being intentionally dishonest though. You can either own up to it or not, I don't care. And it is also insulting to anyone who has spent time doing what you equated to as, "cuddle time".

And you can quit with your "experience" and anecdotes, we don't go off anecdotes in science and medicine for multiple, valid reasons. And I do have zoo experience as well.

 

[dyachei]

enrichment

This is a medical need. If it isn't accomplished, animals have severe issues (some to the point of death).

 

[deleted498041]

This is a medical need. If it isn't accomplished, animals have severe issues (some to the point of death).

Seriously. This is where I think being in vet school can trump some anecdotal evidence or life experience. Has pinkpuppy really never heard of stererotypy? Has she/he never heard of the destructive behaviours that pigs demonstrate in captivity when not provided with enrichment? What about birds? Dogs? Cats? I mean, if they want to go the zoo route (since that's the experience of which they speak) let's talk about killer whales, dolphins, and sea lions. All of these animals exhibit extremely destructive behaviours if not provided with enrichment that could look like "cuddle time" or "playing soccer" to the general, uninformed public. That public informs zoo keepers who are able to get a job without a degree specific to their line of work.

I'm sorry, I understand thinking that you know more because of personal experience. I have my beliefs challenged every day since I started vet school. There are so many things I did in a clinic as a pre-vet that I thought were "the way it's done." There are diagnoses I saw reached, or descriptions I saw used, that were completely 100% inappropriate but I thought that was okay because I was not a veterinarian that had not gone through appropriate training to learn what was appropriate. I think what's important is to set preconceived notions behind and believe what is told to you by the experts. They're known as "experts" for a reason.

 

[dyachei]

I was never a keeper. But I did do a lot of work with the zoo vet at UTK and did a month long externship at a zoo. So other people discussing this have experiences, too.

 

[WildZoo]

Can you tell I have too much time on my hands? This is from a public facebook page for elephant managers. Today I learned that the ZAA is a thing.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Can you tell I have too much time on my hands? This is from a public facebook page for elephant managers. Today I learned that the ZAA is a thing.

View attachment 195789

There's some shadiness with ZAA IMO. It's my understanding that they support breeding of any endangered animal regardless of genetics. I believe they also support personal ownership of exotic animals and give accreditation to roadside animal collections and the like. Also, they accredited a facility that was selling some of its exotic animals through a pet shop...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/enviro...to-accreditation-group-raise-questions/819206
http://bigcatrescue.org/aza-vs-zaa/ this one's pretty biased. They also chose an interesting picture.

 

[that redhead]

My gripe is with the moral compass and its continued insistence on deciding what's best for OTHER people.

I feel like that's the way a lot of stuff is going nowadays in the world