Planning my non-trad path to med school

[StevieNicks]

Hi Everyone,

I recently decided to pursue an old dream of mine and work on applying to medical school. Now I'm trying to figure out a game plan to get me there. I've been working in the public sector for about 4 years out of undergrad (2 years public health-related). I have a bachelors degree in a biological science, so I have completed all of the pre-reqs. I've been studying for the MCAT feverishly over the last month, and plan to study a total of 450 hours before taking it. My cGPA is 3.5 and my sGPA is 3.4. I went to a competitive undergrad U with no reputation for grade inflation. However, I had a rough two quarters in Sophomore year and got Cs in Biochem., Mol. Bio., and OChemB, and a shameful D+ in OChemC. My volunteer experience is pretty pathetic, but I do have ~ 400 hours clinical internship experience that included about 40 hours of physician shadowing. However, that was over 8 years ago. So now I'm wondering if I should try to power through the application process in hopes of matriculating in 2016, or if I should hold out for another year to get some volunteer experience while taking night classes at a community college (while continuing to work full time). Also, if I go for the latter, would I be better off retaking OChem or taking other classes like psych/soc or anatomy or microbio? While I know an extra year can only help my application, I can't help but feel like my biomedical clock is ticking. For reference I'm planning to apply to all of the UC's except SF, and to USC, Drexel, Rush, and Rosalind Franklin. So, any advice? Thank you in advance!

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[didymus]

...My cGPA is 3.5 and my sGPA is 3.4. I had a rough two quarters in Sophomore year and got Cs in Biochem., Mol. Bio., and OChemB, and a shameful D+ in OChemC.

You will want to retake all of these. I don't believe there are any schools that will accept a D in a prereq course, so you will be required to retake Orgo 2. Retake the other ones because it just makes it all the more unlikely that admissions committees will overlook that without you being URM, or outstanding in other areas--like, absolutely exceptional--such as research with major pubs, job experience, top performance in hard postbacc sciences courses, etc. It sounds like your experience may not be stellar enough to compensate for the C's in classes that many consider to be foundational pre-med classes.

My volunteer experience is pretty pathetic

If you think it is pathetic, perhaps admissions committees will too. It may be worth improving this, even with one night p/w in a soup kitchen or nursing home, or, really, anything at all that you could speak meaningfully about during interviews. Having this type of experience can only help you.

I do have ~ 400 hours clinical internship experience that included about 40 hours of physician shadowing. However, that was over 8 years ago.

Do you need to have something more recent? No. You'll want something more recent, though. Medical school admissions is competitive. You definitely don't want to be coming to the application cycle having done the bare minimum, or not having those things ready that will make you shine on paper and in your interview(s).

So now I'm wondering if I should try to power through the application process in hopes of matriculating in 2016

My opinion is No. Others here may have different opinions.

...hold out for another year to get some volunteer experience while taking night classes at a community college (while continuing to work full time).

I would definitely do this.

Also, if I go for the latter, would I be better off retaking OChem or taking other classes like psych/soc or anatomy or microbio?

I would suggest retaking all of your Cs since those are in the classes that are nearly universal prereqs. The other classes are just butter on the bread. If you can fit in other upper div. science coursework, go for it. Otherwise, focus on getting A's in the subpar courses, which not only brings up your gpa but shows an upward trend.

It wouldn't hurt you to shadow more, and to get meaningful volunteer experience.

While I know an extra year can only help my application, I can't help but feel like my biomedical clock is ticking.

These feelings are not uncommon. That said, dropping serious cash to apply to all the schools you listed when your application is not excellent, getting rejected, and then reapplying does not benefit you.

For reference I'm planning to apply to all of the UC's except SF, and to USC...

Others can comment on this more authoritatively than myself, but from everything I have read and heard personally, you have selected some of the more difficult schools to get into based upon the sheer size of the applicant pool alone. I would seriously consider downloading MSAR and checking out the statistics at each school of interest to reasonably and rationally gauge your chances (look at how many people apply to UCLA for instance: 9884 applicants in 2013 for 175 spots, which means roughly 1.7% accepted).

Advice (to be taken with a grain of salt): Do not apply this cycle. Put that money towards coursework. Download MSAR and look closely at your schools of interest (what are the minimum requirements for each? average stats of those accepted? etc.). Volunteer, shadow, study intelligently for, and do well on, the MCAT, make good relationships with professors at the CC you attend so that you can request strong LOR's, and be patient.

All the best to you as you continue your journey!

 

[StevieNicks]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I really needed that!

 

[DrMidlife]

In California you can do everything right and still not get in after multiple tries. Too much competition.

Going out of state costs well over $250k cost of attendance now. You should prioritize getting into a UC over pretty much everything else. And you should invest 2+ years of hard work into preparing to apply. Or move to another state. Or make friends with DO. Respect your competition.

Best of luck to you.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think you should forget about med school and focus on cranking out some solo albums. You have one of the most unique and recognizable voices in the world.

As a more serious answer, no, you are not going to be ready to apply for the 2015 season. Better to wait a year or two for you to get all your ducks in order so you can make one attempt and succeed on your first try, than to do a half-a** job this year and end up reapplying the year after anyway. A 2016 app to matriculate in 2017 would be a much more reasonable time line to give you a chance to remediate your GPA and acquire the necessary ECs.

Best of luck to you.

 

[StevieNicks]

Thank you all for your honest and informative replies. I'm gonna wait an extra year and retake OChem II after some intense home review of OChem I (iTunes U, Khan Academy, my old textbook, MCAT prep books, etc.). Then I plan to re-take Biochem and Mol. Bio. As soon as possible, I'll get started on doing some meaningful volunteer work. I'll probably take the MCAT in April '16, and apply that June. One advantage to an extra year is that I'll have more time to save up for a possible relocation.

 

[StevieNicks]

Or do I have to re-take OChem I for credit as well? I'm not sure how it works going from quarters to semesters. If it helps, I got a B in OChemA.

 

[StevieNicks]

Hell, I might even throw in an M.P.H. for good measure. It'll take a lot to get my stubborn G.P.A. to budge, and I was already considering getting one anyway. Plus it would give me a chance to forge some good relationships with real professors for LORs.

 

[DrMidlife]

Nope, an MPH neither counts as hard science nor helps address undergrad GPA deficits. MPH classes are plenty difficult but they don't compare to undergrad basic science.

 

[the_fella]

Hi Everyone,

I recently decided to pursue an old dream of mine and work on applying to medical school. Now I'm trying to figure out a game plan to get me there. I've been working in the public sector for about 4 years out of undergrad (2 years public health-related). I have a bachelors degree in a biological science, so I have completed all of the pre-reqs. I've been studying for the MCAT feverishly over the last month, and plan to study a total of 450 hours before taking it. My cGPA is 3.5 and my sGPA is 3.4. I went to a competitive undergrad U with no reputation for grade inflation. However, I had a rough two quarters in Sophomore year and got Cs in Biochem., Mol. Bio., and OChemB, and a shameful D+ in OChemC. My volunteer experience is pretty pathetic, but I do have ~ 400 hours clinical internship experience that included about 40 hours of physician shadowing. However, that was over 8 years ago. So now I'm wondering if I should try to power through the application process in hopes of matriculating in 2016, or if I should hold out for another year to get some volunteer experience while taking night classes at a community college (while continuing to work full time). Also, if I go for the latter, would I be better off retaking OChem or taking other classes like psych/soc or anatomy or microbio? While I know an extra year can only help my application, I can't help but feel like my biomedical clock is ticking. For reference I'm planning to apply to all of the UC's except SF, and to USC, Drexel, Rush, and Rosalind Franklin. So, any advice? Thank you in advance!

Are you still in contact with any of these physicians? If you apply to a DO school, they will want a letter from a physician.

 

[Quik]

I always love reading these posts; not to get all nostalgic, but they remind me of that exciting time four years ago when I started this process... Fortunately for you, you have a good amount of the groundwork paved behind you and shouldn't take you quite as long as it did me. I will finally be ready to apply this June. Definitely re-take those classes, push yourself, and get prepared for the MCAT. Boost your EC's (volunteering, recent clinical experience, and research) and if you do well, you should have a good shot. UC's are indeed crazy competitive, which was a big reason I moved out of California. Your plan quoted below looks good. Hone in on some specifics in the way of EC's and go kick ass. Enjoy the ride!

Thank you all for your honest and informative replies. I'm gonna wait an extra year and retake OChem II after some intense home review of OChem I (iTunes U, Khan Academy, my old textbook, MCAT prep books, etc.). Then I plan to re-take Biochem and Mol. Bio. As soon as possible, I'll get started on doing some meaningful volunteer work. I'll probably take the MCAT in April '16, and apply that June. One advantage to an extra year is that I'll have more time to save up for a possible relocation.

 

[StevieNicks]

Nope, an MPH neither counts as hard science nor helps address undergrad GPA deficits. MPH classes are plenty difficult but they don't compare to undergrad basic science.

So, would I be better off taking extra lower div. classes at a CC then? I'm going to retake OChem, Biochem., and Mol. Bio. regardless. Or will a 3.53ish be overlook-able if I kill the MCAT and everything else in the app?

 

[StevieNicks]

Are you still in contact with any of these physicians? If you apply to a DO school, they will want a letter from a physician.

Unfortunately, no, but I was thinking about writing a letter to each of them with an update and seeing if we can schedule a meeting or something. I'm still not sure how I feel about the D.O. route, though, since I'd like to practice in Canada one day, and it could complicate things.

 

[StevieNicks]

I always love reading these posts; not to get all nostalgic, but they remind me of that exciting time four years ago when I started this process... Fortunately for you, you have a good amount of the groundwork paved behind you and shouldn't take you quite as long as it did me. I will finally be ready to apply this June. Definitely re-take those classes, push yourself, and get prepared for the MCAT. Boost your EC's (volunteering, recent clinical experience, and research) and if you do well, you should have a good shot. UC's are indeed crazy competitive, which was a big reason I moved out of California. Your plan quoted below looks good. Hone in on some specifics in the way of EC's and go kick ass. Enjoy the ride!

Thank you for the pep talk! Good luck with your apps! I did forget to mention that I wrote a senior honors research thesis, based on a year of research, so I think I can check that box off the list. It was more Eco./Evo. based, though, but still valuable experience. I'll definitely get on the volunteering thing. I have a few different options to look into in my area.

 

[DrMidlife]

So, would I be better off taking extra lower div. classes at a CC then? I'm going to retake OChem, Biochem., and Mol. Bio. regardless. Or will a 3.53ish be overlook-able if I kill the MCAT and everything else in the app?

3.53ish with recent CC damage repair is not good enough for MD admissions in California. See my prior post about prioritization.

 

[StevieNicks]

3.53ish with recent CC damage repair is not good enough for MD admissions in California. See my prior post about prioritization.

So, what exactly can I do if earning an M.P.H. or taking a bunch of classes at a community college isn't good enough? None of the university post-bacc programs in my area admit science-degree holders. I'm open to applying out-of-state, despite the heavy price tag, but I'm married so I have to limit my options based on my spouse's likelihood of getting a job in that city.

 

[DrMidlife]

You'll hate this answer, because everybody hates this answer: read. A lot. You have here on SDN the collected wisdom of about a thousand older med students who overcame difficult situations to get into med school. Low GPAs, marriages in trouble, special needs children, first gen college students. Oodles of Californians. Well over a decade of voluminous high yield material. You do not have anything like a unique situation and it's been discussed about 14 times per year since I started paying attention in '06.

Or, you can post questions before putting in the time, and hope that some of the tired & stressed-out med students and residents, that we older nontrads became after getting through the trials of being premeds, are in the mood to rehash it yet one more time.

Told you you'd hate it.

 

[StevieNicks]

You'll hate this answer, because everybody hates this answer: read. A lot. You have here on SDN the collected wisdom of about a thousand older med students who overcame difficult situations to get into med school. Low GPAs, marriages in trouble, special needs children, first gen college students. Oodles of Californians. Well over a decade of voluminous high yield material. You do not have anything like a unique situation and it's been discussed about 14 times per year since I started paying attention in '06.

Or, you can post questions before putting in the time, and hope that some of the tired & stressed-out med students and residents, that we older nontrads became after getting through the trials of being premeds, are in the mood to rehash it yet one more time.

Told you you'd hate it.

Well, I suppose I walked right into that one. Point taken.

 

[GreenDuck12]

So, what exactly can I do if earning an M.P.H. or taking a bunch of classes at a community college isn't good enough? None of the university post-bacc programs in my area admit science-degree holders. I'm open to applying out-of-state, despite the heavy price tag, but I'm married so I have to limit my options based on my spouse's likelihood of getting a job in that city.

If your goal is a UC medical school, go for it. It will limit your options on what other public universities you can consider and you would be charged out of state tuition, which can be high. If you are your spouse are willing to relocate, find a state that either has a high acceptance of in state applicants or agreements with medical schools in other states (Texas has a high number of medical schools and incredibly low tuition). For example, OHSU in Oregon accepts roughly 20% of in state applicants and 0.6% of out of state applicants. If you became an oregon resident, you stand a reasonable chance of gaining admission provided you are close to their admission stats. Out of state, you are kinda s.o.l. as they typically accept applicants with very high stats.

 

[StevieNicks]

If your goal is a UC medical school, go for it. It will limit your options on what other public universities you can consider and you would be charged out of state tuition, which can be high. If you are your spouse are willing to relocate, find a state that either has a high acceptance of in state applicants or agreements with medical schools in other states (Texas has a high number of medical schools and incredibly low tuition). For example, OHSU in Oregon accepts roughly 20% of in state applicants and 0.6% of out of state applicants. If you became an oregon resident, you stand a reasonable chance of gaining admission provided you are close to their admission stats. Out of state, you are kinda s.o.l. as they typically accept applicants with very high stats.

Thanks for the insight GreenDuck12. I'll do some more research. In other news, I'm looking into M.S. programs in Environmental Health Sciences (Toxicology) or Epidemiology. Both are pretty relevant to my current job, and I could see myself doing research in either one. Also, they're a lot cheaper than M.P.H. programs .

 

[StevieNicks]

OMG! I just discovered UCLA Extension! I think I'll go that route for my pre-reqs.

 

[StBernardsRule]

I just want to echo what others have said about how incredibly difficult it is to get into a UC from California. As already pointed out, UCLA accepted roughly 1.7% of self selected applicants. Also make sure to understand having the school's average GPA and MCAT (or slightly better) means you probably still won't get in unless you are a URM. So, even if you look at UCLA's average MCAT/GPA and think you can reach it, you're still much more likely than not to get rejected. It's not like undergrad as schools want very specific applicants and it's impossible to predict if they think you'll be the right "fit" for their class. Also, it's impossible for your GPA to be average for a UC even if you get 4.0 from this point on (and I'm not sure how adcoms view A's from UC extension programs).

You are basically going to try to do in 1 or 2 years what only the smartest and most motivated students were able to accomplish in 4 years. In order to make yourself competitive to apply for a UC from where you are in 2 years, not only will you have to be very smart and very hard working but you'll also need access to a ton of resources. Classes cost a lot of time and money. Even something as simple as volunteering cost money (bridge tolls, parking, public transportation, gas, etc). The average MD hopeful (who is quite smart and pretty hard working) with a 3.5 GPA could not get into a UC within 2 years even if resources were not an issue, but if they are it's going to be much, much more difficult.

I ended up getting really lucky during my application cycle but I really wish I understood the above when I started this journey. I think getting into a UC after applying within 2 years would likely require you to work at this full time (significantly more than 40 hours/week), get lucky, be very smart, and be in a position where money isn't an issue (so you can make no money while still paying thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars on classes). Most people I know who started this journey also wanted what you want (to get into a UC) but nearly all of them instead went to D.O. schools, are re-applying, or simply gave up. Again, just be aware of all this going in, as no one told me this when I started and I imagine when you apply (say 2017) it'll actually be a lot more competitive than it was when I did (2013, which was already plenty competitive). It's basically an arms race to get into medical school right now with applicants getting more competitive every year.

 

[StevieNicks]

It's basically an arms race to get into medical school right now with applicants getting more competitive every year.

This is what I'm finding to be the most frustrating. When I started my undergrad, my understanding was that a 3.5 was the "target" if you wanted to go to med school. Now it's like, 3.7 minimum. As long as I continue to work full-time, resources aren't too much of a concern for me. Luckily, the UCLA Extension program and some of the CC's in my area have pretty convenient class schedules for working professionals. If I do leave my job, pre-med, it'll be for a Masters program (w/ Graduate Assistantship stipend/partial fee remission) that I can apply toward a career if the medical route falls through. My heart isn't 100% set on getting into a UC, but I'm not going to just not even try. That's what contingency plans are for. I will apply broadly, when the time comes. I still haven't completely written off the idea of going the D.O. route, especially since the AOA and ACGME residencies are in the process of merging (just found this out today), and I'm interested in primary care. I'm not sure how the residency merge will affect Canadian practice right requirements, but I'll look into it. Even if OMM makes me a little uneasy, I might be willing to suck it up through med school if it means the difference between becoming a doctor and not. However, I'm not really willing to just shrug my shoulders, hang my hat, and not give it a solid effort, even if it means delaying applications for longer than I initially planned for. At the same time, I'm not really willing to just drop everything for a full-time pre-med post-bac or SMP program that will be worthless if I don't get into medical school. I'll do what I can do, within reason, and if that still isn't enough, then at least I'll be satisfied with knowing I did the best that I could without being completely broke with nothing to show for it.

 

[prissy1818]

Stevie Nicks, I'm in the same boat as you! graduating with an English degree and terrible GPA (due to taking 5 science courses at once during m fist year at UC) really brought my GPA low plus back tracked me on my prerequisites. I'm looking into post backs as well and found UCLA extension gives that option without applying. I don't know if it is too good to be true or it really is that easy to apply for their extension program. I'm in a tough situation as well since I need both science science courses (already have done bio and gen chem series) but need the rest plus need a boost my GPA. I live in the Riverside area and for saving money purposes, i want to finish my classes at a cc but many advisors tad me it's not a good idea. Any advice ???

 

[GreenDuck12]

Stevie Nicks, I'm in the same boat as you! graduating with an English degree and terrible GPA (due to taking 5 science courses at once during m fist year at UC) really brought my GPA low plus back tracked me on my prerequisites. I'm looking into post backs as well and found UCLA extension gives that option without applying. I don't know if it is too good to be true or it really is that easy to apply for their extension program. I'm in a tough situation as well since I need both science science courses (already have done bio and gen chem series) but need the rest plus need a boost my GPA. I live in the Riverside area and for saving money purposes, i want to finish my classes at a cc but many advisors tad me it's not a good idea. Any advice ???

There have been many posts about whether or not it is a good idea to complete pre-reqs at cc. Some argue adcoms view cc classes as being less rigorous and "look down" on classes that were completed there. Others argue that as long as you do well on your classes and on your MCAT, you won't have too many problems. There are others that speak to this much better than I can.

You can take classes at UCLA extension without being admitted. Extension programs at many universities do not require students to be admitted but rather pay up front for classes. Some post-bad and extension programs are stronger and more supportive than others but the most important thing is to find a school where you can do well.

Are you looking for a post-bacc program in order to take classes or to do grade repair?

 

[StBernardsRule]

Stevie Nicks, I'm in the same boat as you! graduating with an English degree and terrible GPA (due to taking 5 science courses at once during m fist year at UC) really brought my GPA low plus back tracked me on my prerequisites. I'm looking into post backs as well and found UCLA extension gives that option without applying. I don't know if it is too good to be true or it really is that easy to apply for their extension program. I'm in a tough situation as well since I need both science science courses (already have done bio and gen chem series) but need the rest plus need a boost my GPA. I live in the Riverside area and for saving money purposes, i want to finish my classes at a cc but many advisors tad me it's not a good idea. Any advice ???

What is your starting GPA, are you an URM, and what are your goals? Those will determine what you need to do to have a reasonable chance to get what you want.

 

[StBernardsRule]

This is what I'm finding to be the most frustrating. When I started my undergrad, my understanding was that a 3.5 was the "target" if you wanted to go to med school. Now it's like, 3.7 minimum. As long as I continue to work full-time, resources aren't too much of a concern for me. Luckily, the UCLA Extension program and some of the CC's in my area have pretty convenient class schedules for working professionals. If I do leave my job, pre-med, it'll be for a Masters program (w/ Graduate Assistantship stipend/partial fee remission) that I can apply toward a career if the medical route falls through. My heart isn't 100% set on getting into a UC, but I'm not going to just not even try. That's what contingency plans are for. I will apply broadly, when the time comes. I still haven't completely written off the idea of going the D.O. route, especially since the AOA and ACGME residencies are in the process of merging (just found this out today), and I'm interested in primary care. I'm not sure how the residency merge will affect Canadian practice right requirements, but I'll look into it. Even if OMM makes me a little uneasy, I might be willing to suck it up through med school if it means the difference between becoming a doctor and not. However, I'm not really willing to just shrug my shoulders, hang my hat, and not give it a solid effort, even if it means delaying applications for longer than I initially planned for. At the same time, I'm not really willing to just drop everything for a full-time pre-med post-bac or SMP program that will be worthless if I don't get into medical school. I'll do what I can do, within reason, and if that still isn't enough, then at least I'll be satisfied with knowing I did the best that I could without being completely broke with nothing to show for it.

If you are ok with D.O. schools, then honestly getting in somewhere is unlikely to be much of an issue if you work hard and are reasonably smart. This isn't to imply there's anything wrong with D.O. schools, they just happen to be much easier to get into than M.D. schools, especially if you're from Cali. Do be aware though that the cost of attendance for many D.O schools (especially the California ones) over 4 years may require you to borrow (so before interest) about $350k of very high interest debt (between 6.8-7.2%). But at the very least if you are pretty smart and willing to work pretty hard, I think it's very reasonable to expect to at least be able to get into a D.O school while still shooting for a MD school.

Working full time and getting into a UC isn't probably very likely unless you are especially brilliant (which of course some people are). You're going to be competing against an applicant pool where a 3.8+ GPA from a pretty hard university is normal (shout out to Berkeley and UCLA grads). Where doing well while taking tons of upper division science classes in a single semester is normal. Where lots of research experience, hundreds of hours of volunteer experience, and other interesting EC activities is normal. Where you're expected to find a way to get shadowing experience even if you have no connections, it's time consuming, and it often falls through. Where scoring in the top 5% of test takes for the MCAT is normal. When schools are accepting 1.7% or so of their applicants, just missing one single thing can easily get you rejected. And again, I honestly think when you apply it's going to be a lot harder than it is now as more and more people are thinking "Hmmmmm.... that whole medicine gig looks pretty good," especially since other professional schools (law school, vet school, etc) look much less appealing than they used to and a lot more people go to college now than used to.

Basically, what you are likely to find is there's a huge trade off no matter what you do. This isn't something people often talk about, but realistically you can't have it all. If you work full time over the next 2 years, you'll probably be a much weaker applicant than you would be if you don't work at all and completely devote yourself to getting into school (surely if you had 40+ more hours per week to devote to this you'd be a stronger applicant). But if you do quit your job and completely devote yourself to this, it's going to cost a ridiculous amount of money for no guarantee that you actually get the ideal outcome (a good, cheaper MD school).

Again, I hope this doesn't come off like I'm a Negative Nancy, I just really wish someone would have dropped knowledge bombs on me when I started doing this. No one told me "Hey, when you actually apply 2-3 years from now, it'll likely be a lot more competitive than it is now" or "Hey, as a white and/or Asian dude from Cali, getting the average GPA/MCAT for a school still means you are much more likely than not to still get rejected to that school." I honestly assumed it was like undergrad and if you hit the GPA/MCAT median you were likely good to go for the school (this is not true). No one told me that the interest rates on loans now are laughably high at 6.8% and 7.2% (most people need both) or told me how incredibly expensive the D.O options in California are. It makes sense no one talks about these things, as no one wants to be a Buzz Kill Bill, but if you don't drink the pre-med kool-aid and realize what's going before you start this process I think you're likely to get an outcome you're satisfied with. Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Gentle reminder: no single voice on SDN, including mine, should be taken too seriously. Use what you find here as clues. Anecdotes. Not gospel.

If you want gospel, find official data. AAMC, AACOM, med school websites, NRMP.

I suggest making a collection of seasoned posters who are reporting from the other side, such as QofQuimica, LizzyM, WingedScapula, gyngyn etc and look for their input, current and past. Fun fact: the people whose advice you want most have almost certainly answered your question before, multiple times.

 

[StevieNicks]

Stevie Nicks, I'm in the same boat as you! graduating with an English degree and terrible GPA (due to taking 5 science courses at once during m fist year at UC) really brought my GPA low plus back tracked me on my prerequisites. I'm looking into post backs as well and found UCLA extension gives that option without applying. I don't know if it is too good to be true or it really is that easy to apply for their extension program. I'm in a tough situation as well since I need both science science courses (already have done bio and gen chem series) but need the rest plus need a boost my GPA. I live in the Riverside area and for saving money purposes, i want to finish my classes at a cc but many advisors tad me it's not a good idea. Any advice ???

Since you weren't a science major, you'll have a few more options available to you for post-bac than I do. I'd suggest taking a look at some of your local public universities and see if you meet their requirements for admission to their post-bac programs. You could take CC/extension classes in the meantime to tide you over while waiting for the application process to go through. One advantage (of many) to a formal program is that you'll have access to advising. I'm new to this too, so take with a big grain of salt. Best of luck to you .

 

[StevieNicks]

If you are ok with D.O. schools, then honestly getting in somewhere is unlikely to be much of an issue if you work hard and are reasonably smart. This isn't to imply there's anything wrong with D.O. schools, they just happen to be much easier to get into than M.D. schools, especially if you're from Cali. Do be aware though that the cost of attendance for many D.O schools (especially the California ones) over 4 years may require you to borrow (so before interest) about $350k of very high interest debt (between 6.8-7.2%). But at the very least if you are pretty smart and willing to work pretty hard, I think it's very reasonable to expect to at least be able to get into a D.O school while still shooting for a MD school.

Working full time and getting into a UC isn't probably very likely unless you are especially brilliant (which of course some people are). You're going to be competing against an applicant pool where a 3.8+ GPA from a pretty hard university is normal (shout out to Berkeley and UCLA grads). Where doing well while taking tons of upper division science classes in a single semester is normal. Where lots of research experience, hundreds of hours of volunteer experience, and other interesting EC activities is normal. Where you're expected to find a way to get shadowing experience even if you have no connections, it's time consuming, and it often falls through. Where scoring in the top 5% of test takes for the MCAT is normal. When schools are accepting 1.7% or so of their applicants, just missing one single thing can easily get you rejected. And again, I honestly think when you apply it's going to be a lot harder than it is now as more and more people are thinking "Hmmmmm.... that whole medicine gig looks pretty good," especially since other professional schools (law school, vet school, etc) look much less appealing than they used to and a lot more people go to college now than used to.

Basically, what you are likely to find is there's a huge trade off no matter what you do. This isn't something people often talk about, but realistically you can't have it all. If you work full time over the next 2 years, you'll probably be a much weaker applicant than you would be if you don't work at all and completely devote yourself to getting into school (surely if you had 40+ more hours per week to devote to this you'd be a stronger applicant). But if you do quit your job and completely devote yourself to this, it's going to cost a ridiculous amount of money for no guarantee that you actually get the ideal outcome (a good, cheaper MD school).

Again, I hope this doesn't come off like I'm a Negative Nancy, I just really wish someone would have dropped knowledge bombs on me when I started doing this. No one told me "Hey, when you actually apply 2-3 years from now, it'll likely be a lot more competitive than it is now" or "Hey, as a white and/or Asian dude from Cali, getting the average GPA/MCAT for a school still means you are much more likely than not to still get rejected to that school." I honestly assumed it was like undergrad and if you hit the GPA/MCAT median you were likely good to go for the school (this is not true). No one told me that the interest rates on loans now are laughably high at 6.8% and 7.2% (most people need both) or told me how incredibly expensive the D.O options in California are. It makes sense no one talks about these things, as no one wants to be a Buzz Kill Bill, but if you don't drink the pre-med kool-aid and realize what's going before you start this process I think you're likely to get an outcome you're satisfied with. Best of luck to you.

Thank you for the perspective. That's why I came here in the first place .

 

[StevieNicks]

Gentle reminder: no single voice on SDN, including mine, should be taken too seriously. Use what you find here as clues. Anecdotes. Not gospel.

If you want gospel, find official data. AAMC, AACOM, med school websites, NRMP.

I suggest making a collection of seasoned posters who are reporting from the other side, such as QofQuimica, LizzyM, WingedScapula, gyngyn etc and look for their input, current and past. Fun fact: the people whose advice you want most have almost certainly answered your question before, multiple times.

I had looked at the numbers for most of the schools I was planning on applying to, but GPA and MCAT scores seem to only say so much. There seem to be so many more variables involved. Without access to a pre-health advisor, it can be difficult knowing where to start. I spent most of my day yesterday reading through the Low GPA/MCAT success story thread, and yes I know, anecdotes, but it gave me some hope. I will continue to do some more research, but I do need to brush up on OChemA so that I'll be ready to take OChemB in April, so I'll sign off. Thank you all for your time. I know you have much more important things to be doing/studying. Best of luck to all of you!

 

[prissy1818]

There have been many posts about whether or not it is a good idea to complete pre-reqs at cc. Some argue adcoms view cc classes as being less rigorous and "look down" on classes that were completed there. Others argue that as long as you do well on your classes and on your MCAT, you won't have too many problems. There are others that speak to this much better than I can.

You can take classes at UCLA extension without being admitted. Extension programs at many universities do not require students to be admitted but rather pay up front for classes. Some post-bad and extension programs are stronger and more supportive than others but the most important thing is to find a school where you can do well.

Are you looking for a post-bacc program in order to take classes or to do grade repair?

Both!! I got a B-/C+ on my gen Chen series so if like to retake that to look better plus be more prepared for orgo. For gen Bio I got Bs so I'm good with that and im stronger in that area as opposed to chemistry. But since I'm in a weird stage where I haven't completd precalculus ( which I'm taking this spring semester at a cc) that's why I'm not eligible in some post baccs. Extension does seem more for me so I'll be looking into that. Thank you for the advice

 

[prissy1818]

What is your starting GPA, are you an URM, and what are your goals? Those will determine what you need to do to have a reasonable chance to get what you want.

My cumulative is 2.6 and yes I am a URM. I'm planning to go to med school and I underst that I have to finish my prereqs strong plus get a 35 or above on the MCAT which is doable now since I have been preparing for it now

 

[GreenDuck12]

Both!! I got a B-/C+ on my gen Chen series so if like to retake that to look better plus be more prepared for orgo. For gen Bio I got Bs so I'm good with that and im stronger in that area as opposed to chemistry. But since I'm in a weird stage where I haven't completd precalculus ( which I'm taking this spring semester at a cc) that's why I'm not eligible in some post baccs. Extension does seem more for me so I'll be looking into that. Thank you for the advice

I don't think you need a 35 (or whatever its equivalent is on the new MCAT) to get into medical school (though it certainly would not hurt). If I were in your position, what I would do is retake all pre-reqs starting with pre-calculus in order to both learn/relearn the material and raise lower grades. I would also take a look to see if there are any other F/D/C/B- grades in non-pre-req classes and see if it is possible to retake them and earn a higher grade starting with the lowest grade possible. With the grade replacement policy for DO schools, you could significantly raise your sGPA and cGPA from where it currently is (exact numbers depend on your coursework) which would make your more competitive at DO programs. MD programs do not replace lower grades in classes with higher grades but will average the two together, which will give you half of the boost. Long story short, you can still achieve your dream of becoming a doctor

 

[StevieNicks]

Hi Guys and Gals,

Quick update, for anyone who might be interested now or in the future.
1. I've completely changed my tune on the whole MD vs. DO thing. Honestly, all else being equal, I'd prefer to go to a DO school. It feels like a better fit for me and how I'd like to practice medicine. Also, it looks like it won't be an issue for practicing in Canada, since the ACGME will be accrediting AOA residencies by the time I get there anyway. Plus OMM seems like a nice tool to have in primary care where back pain is one of the more common complaints. The top schools I have in mind are WesternU (so I could stay local and my hubby wouldn't need to find a new job), DMUCOM (I'm in love with everything about this school except for the location), CCOM (excellent school/location but terrifyingly high tuition), PCOM (Great school/location), and LECOM Erie-Seton Hill PBL (tuition on par with UCs!, PBL seems awesome, pretty good location near Pittsburgh, good reputation for primary care according to U.S. News and World Report, strict rules/dress code not a problem for me, since I'm somewhat of a stickler for rules and I love getting dressed up all professional-like).
2. That being said, I still plan to apply to some of the UCs, since they're cheaper. I may have a shot at UC Davis if I rock the MCAT.
3. I just completed my first quarter of DIY post-bac at UCLA extension and got a solid A in orgo. I hate to say it, but I was a little disappointed that the extension class didn't quite keep up with the non-extension counterpart, but given the lack of discussion sections and office hours I suppose it made sense.
4. I looked into/visited a couple of local SMP-like programs locally. KGI postbac pre-med program seemed like a program that was trying to be something it wasn't. The classes were meant for the Professional Science Masters program and didn't seem to be well-suited to a pre-med trying to prove they can handle rigorous science coursework. I also looked into WesternU's MSMS program, and it seemed geared towards applicants who really want to go to WesternU but don't yet have competitive GPAs to get accepted directly into their DO program. After grade replacement, my anticipated cGPA will be about 3.6 by the time I start applying to med schools, which is right around the median for matriculants at COMP. Unfortunately, I don't know what the odds of admission are with average stats (I wonder if their admissions staff would be willing to share that if I asked). Attending the MSMS program could make likely admission closer to a guarantee, but it might also be a huge waste of money if I could easily get in without it. I did like the shadowing/service learning opportunities it provides, and it might make the transition into med school a little smoother by having an extra year of intensive preparation, but again, I don't know if it's worth the tuition and opportunity cost of a year of my current salary.
5. I have yet to take the MCAT. I scored a 26 on an old Kaplan practice test before studying, so I think that's a good sign. I want to retake Biochem first, if possible, before I take the plunge. I'm thinking April 2016. However, on the off-chance I did decide to apply to WesternU's MSMS program, I'd need to take it this September, yikes!
So, that's where I'm at now. I hope this was helpful for someone down the road. Thanks again for all your advice!

 

[StevieNicks]

New update, apply this cycle or next?

So, it's been about a year now, and I've retaken Ochem (A/A-) and Molecular Bio (A+) through UCLA Extension. I'm studying to take the MCAT in early May. I'm taking an upper div Mol. Bio. course spring quarter and retaking Biochem. during summer session at my undergrad institution. By the time I apply, I'll have at least 150 hours of ER volunteering. I have 20 hrs. recent shadowing and plan to do more once I'm done taking the MCAT. I also want to do some non-clinical volunteering, but again, I'll probably need to wait until after the MCAT. I'm still working full time.

If I apply in late June, My AMCAS gpa should be about 3.54 and my AACOMAS should be about 3.69. I'm guessing my app would still be a long shot for UCs, even with an upward trend in my gpa? If I wait another year before applying, my new biochem grade will be factored into my app, and I'll have much more solid ECs and additional UD science coursework to show for, but (assuming even a 90th percentile MCAT) will it be enough to make my application competitive for UCs? UCI is my dream school, but Western U is a close second, if it weren't for the high tuition and long commute.

One potential avenue I've considered is training to be a phlebotomist. Then I could work as a PT phlebotomist while taking prereqs. up to 3 courses/quarter. The pay hit would be significant, but it would be good clinical experience, and better pay than scribing.

I greatly appreciate any advice. Thank you.

 

[QofQuimica]

Let's see what kind of MCAT score you have to work with. Also, how strongly do you have your heart set on Cali? There's a good reason why so many Cali residents do their training in places like Ohio and Michigan.

 

[StevieNicks]

Let's see what kind of MCAT score you have to work with. Also, how strongly do you have your heart set on Cali? There's a good reason why so many Cali residents do their training in places like Ohio and Michigan.

Will update in two months after I take the AAMC scored practice test. I scored a 503 on my last TPR practice test (1/4 of the way into TPR content review). From what I've read, TPR's scoring isn't very accurate to the real exam, though.

I plan on applying broadly, and that includes OOS. However, I would strongly prefer to stay local, so I don't know if it would be worth it to apply yet if I have no chance at the UCs. However, if I'd still have no chance after another year of application improvement, then I'd rather just cut my losses and apply broadly this year.

 

[StevieNicks]

Quick update, I finally took the plunge and took the AAMC scored practice test. I was shocked to get a 512 ! I take the real test in a month. My AMCAS GPA and BCPM are about 3.55 right now. I could probably reach the 3.6 mark after another year of part-time classes, not sure if it's worth it to take another year for a 0.05 bump. Even full time classes won't raise it much beyond a 3.6. I'm gonna try to get my app verified before my MCAT scores get back, but I know I'm pushing it a bit for the AMCAS timeline.

 

[Law2Doc]

As mentioned, if the actual MCAT is solid, applicants with 3.55 and recent success in the sciences have a decent shot at getting into "a" med school. The snag is that you are hoping for California, which is far more competitive than the national average. If you can apply widely and broadly and wrap your head around moving out of state, you'll have a much better shot. You can always try to return for residency.

 

[StevieNicks]

As mentioned, if the actual MCAT is solid, applicants with 3.55 and recent success in the sciences have a decent shot at getting into "a" med school. The snag is that you are hoping for California, which is far more competitive than the national average. If you can apply widely and broadly and wrap your head around moving out of state, you'll have a much better shot. You can always try to return for residency.

Thank you!

 

[StevieNicks]

My MCAT score is in! Hopefully a 516 will compensate for my lackluster sophomore g.p.a.! My app's ready to go and I think I'm gonna go ahead and click submit, I just hope it's not too late in the cycle. Still gotta work out a school list.

 

[StevieNicks]

Hi all, would anyone be willing to provide feedback on my school list? I was hoping to add osteopathic schools, but I'm concerned that my DO letter is going to fall through . Here are the schools I've applied to: UCI, UCLA, UCSD, UCR, UCD, USC. Here are the schools I'm considering adding while my app is being verified: UCSF, Albert Einstein, Boston U, Rosalind Franklin, Emory, Hofstra, Temple, Loyola, Rush, Thomas Jefferson, Tufts. Should I add or remove any from the proposed list? I tried to narrow it down to cities with nearby public aquaria, since my husband works in that field.