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Please comment:Embryology in quran !

Discussion in 'Allopathic' started by Doc4patient, 02.14.12.

  1. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    Dear colleagues, please comment on this paper from "scientific/medical" perspective.

    Thanks everyone :)!
     
    Last edited: 02.14.12
  2. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    Read the whole Koran before some believer's re-interpretation. Embryos are not blood clots and the sun doesn't set in a pool of congealed mud. Believers interpret what they read as they want to fit their beliefs, then try to feed it to others. Of course, preaching to the converted is much easier.

    Watch this: First comes denial, then anger. I somehow don't think we'll make it to bargaining, depression, or acceptance.

    Let the games begin! I will not make personal attacks or call people names, regardless of how they will flame me but I will challenge beliefs, interpretations and assumptions.

    Read this book: http://prophetofdoom.net/pdf/Prophet_of_Doom_Entire_Book.pdf

    It is much more truthful than the one mentioned above. Then, read the Koran and the Hadith without the blinders of belief.

    Attack me all you want, but read "The Prophet of Doom" first. Otherwise, you will be in blissful ignorance and will have no fulcrum to apply your lever.
     
    Last edited: 02.14.12
  3. loveoforganic

    loveoforganic -Account Deactivated-

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  4. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    yes.....
     
  5. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    I'm surprised no one used the "popcorn eating" emoticon yet. But then again, nothing really happened. I am waiting, maybe in vain, for the arguments to start. I love proselytising threads, but only when they bring participation. We all know the true subject here is not embryology.
     
  6. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    I hope the OP is reading the book.
     
  7. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    I hope anyone give me his feedback on this paper.
    Thanks in advance
     
  8. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    Again, it is just a bunch of loose observations written by a believer who wants to make a claim that the book he believes in has any credibility. Stretching the truth and giving misguided interpretations will not make a falllacy true. The embryo at no time is a blood clot. People have been looking at embryos of various species, including human, for a long, long time. The Koran does not make similes for those things. It states them as facts. And those "facts" are not found in poetic portions of the book, so they are mentioned authoritatively to be believed literally.
     
    Last edited: 02.14.12
  9. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    I think it's a well written article. I don't think the embryo as a leech analogy is a great one, but I see the parallels the author was trying to make. The blood clot analogy does not fit at all, in my mind. Weeks 0-2 have no similarity to a blood clot, the blood islands in the yolk sac are part of the embryo, not the whole thing. Blood islands by themselves are just ecchymosises, from a medical stand-point.
     
  10. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    Parallels can be taken out of anything. Look at the apocalyptical Christian sects over the last two millenia. Armaggedon is due any day. A parallel, an allegory, or an analogy is not a fact. The facts mentioned here are not opened to interpretation.
     
  11. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    I didn't really see the point of the paper... is it just trying to establish that the quran isnt in direct contradiciton of medical science?
     
  12. Kadava Reviva

    Kadava Reviva Brutally Honest

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    Bingo. Neither is Moby Dick.
     
  13. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    And your point is what? I didn't read any segment in the article stating that this interpretation should supersede current medical teaching. I don't think the article was trying to say the Qu'ran explains embryology at the molecular level.

    Sounds like a believer is trying to give others some science to explain what they already believe. Nothing wrong with that, and I say that as a catholic. We do similar things.
     
    Last edited: 02.14.12
  14. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    to be fair, however - (was gunna start with devil's advocate... but figured that was too pun-heavy)

    attempts to reconcile religion and science through interpretation could potentially go a long ways toward lessening the hostility between the two. 1 positive effect would be a reduction in atheists assuming scientific advancement is contradictory to theism, and maybe we could close that ridiculous creationist natural history museum that states that dinosaur bones were placed on earth 6k years ago to test our faith.
     
  15. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    It's trying to just tie together science and the teachings of the Qu'ran. The point, I think, is to help people of their faith think about their teachings in a new way.
     
  16. calvnandhobbs68

    calvnandhobbs68 I KNOW NOTHING Bronze Donor

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  17. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    Thanks very much :)

    Anyone else want to say anything?

    @ Spammers: You are more knowlegable that Prof. Keith Moore, I know.
     
  18. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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  19. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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  20. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    Ok, this paper is absolute garbage. It is obviously trying to prove that the Qu'rans interpretation is scientifically accurate, it even says so on page 16 when comparing the Qu'ran to Aristolte's theory. There is no essence of clay in sperm or eggs, no scholarly research into linguistics is going to change that. You shouldn't be taking this stuff literally.... Check this out from the Qu'ran:
    Sura 36:40
    "it is not permitted to the sun to catch up the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day, each just swims along in its own orbit"

    We know this isn't scientifically true, right?! What about in the arctic?! Solar eclipses?!
    lol, the anand and hamza dudes got crushed in that interview. I like the total misquote of Moore and Persaud. I want to reiterate that my thoughts on both of those papers are that they fly if it's strictly loose interpretations applying science to the Qu'ran, and not meant to be "scientific research". That is not research, that's one dudes opinion, much like if someone did the same thing with the bible. Neither of those papers "prove" jack, they are just some thoughts from my perspective. It's about faith.... you shouldn't be trying to use science to prove your religion, it doesn't work like that. Since religion cannot be tested by scientific methods the two are mutually exclusive.

    P.S. I never thought people would be arguing over a book that caused me so much pain... those diagrams suck, for real.
     
    Last edited: 02.19.12
  21. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    So true. There should be a separation of church(or mosque, temple w/e) and state. As well as a separation of religion and science (thanks GWB for the useless stem cell research ban).
     
  22. Jack is Back

    Jack is Back

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    I am a Christian, yet I don't think that religious texts were ever meant to be scientific texts. I don't understand why people consistently try to pull science out of whichever text. (somehow this justifies one's faith?)
     
  23. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    Where is the errors u found ?
    Nothing in the paper about what u r saying !
    Irrelevant Q: The translated meaning of the ayah u quoted http://quran.com/36/40, HOW it's scientifically not true ? Do u really have doubt about sun & moon having orbits !
     
    Last edited: 02.19.12
  24. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    http://scienceislam.com/

    But i am talking about this 2 papers. This is NOT a religious thread. It's a thread about if someone think this 2 papers aren't scientifically valid !
     
  25. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    There is a reason most great scientists and doctors are not religious. As the great Dr. Carl Sagan said, all technology can be used for both good and evil. It is up to us to guide the destiny of the human race for good or for evil. If I had a religion it would probably be saganism.
     
  26. JP2740

    JP2740

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    Are you saying so because you think that's true or you have some sort of evidence saying so? Are you using the word "religious" very loosely here? Most people in the world aren't quote-on-quote religious, as in they follow the tenets very closely. I know many outstanding physicians who have a religion, whether they are good followers or not I have no idea and you probably don't either. If you do though, please send it my way! I'd be interested. :)
     
  27. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Unfortunately, this is out of the realm of hard science and it is hard to gather evidence of this. So yes, I was being anecdotal.
     
  28. generationX

    generationX

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  29. TenderRender

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    If you're honestly looking to see if this is scientifically valid, it really isn't. The references to clotted blood are wrong, and critically, it seems to claim that "skeleton and bones" are formed before "flesh and muscle". This really shows that whatever was writen in the Koran was guesswork, that the author of your paper is trying to say is truth. If I were an ancient writer, I'd also guess that our skeletons are made first, and then our flesh and muscles made around that. Unfortunately, that's just not true.

    I'm sorry OP, but all I'm seeing is that the paper is trying to say that guesswork (the Koran) is "truth". It just sounds exactly what someone who had some decent theories of what's going on in the womb might guess, but not what modern science has actually shown.

    I know it'd be nice to think that the writer of the Koran was truly enlightened and somehow figured all of this out, or was given this knowledge, but this is evidence against that belief.
     
  30. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    Couple of points:
    1. you can never test if a creator placed this clay extract into a womb. Not testable = not science. Science is proven using the scientific method. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
    2. There are no similarities between clay and zygotes. None. Trying to say clay can also be called "extract" doesn't help.
    3. What the commenter below says.
    4. The clot description is totally wrong.

    exactly my thoughts.

    One last thing about the sun and moon thing.

    definition of "outstrip":
    1. Move faster than and overtake (someone else).
    2. Exceed: "supply far outstripped demand".

    In some regions of the world, there is polar night. The moon is displayed more than the sun, outstripping it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_night
    Also, The moon can block the sun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse

    Thus, Sura 36:40 "it is not permitted to the sun to catch up the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day, each just swims along in its own orbit" Is totally wrong. The sun does catch up to the moon and sometimes night is longer than day. Also, it makes it seem like the moon and sun orbit the earth. We know this is not true but was widely accepted when the Qu'ran was written.
     
    Last edited: 02.19.12
  31. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    Something is to be stated as a fact. I was born muslim. I , thanks to God, memorize the whole quran by heart, when i grow up and came to the internet world, I was -really- shocked when i found a site stating it found errors in quran. I checked the hundreds of the "errors". If i was an outsider, i may have been deceived, but actually, as a person who understand arabic I realized this person who wrote that either
    1- Ignorant
    2- Liar
    There is NO third possibility !
    So my q can never be if quran right or wrong- It's Imposible to be wrong
    It's about this paper.


    N.B: If another outsider has read any so called error. and want to know more about the subject, use this
    http://bemuslims.weebly.com/muslims-search-engine.html
    If there is a doubt regarding any thing u can send me a message to explain because this thread as i said isnot about quran, it's about the paper.
    The word is Alaqa, its different meanings are discucussed in the first paper.

    Quran has never said that , its your claim. It seems u didn't read the related part.
     
  32. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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    [​IMG]

    .
     
  33. JP2740

    JP2740

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    I wish I could use this logic on my physio exam tomorrow. What? My answer is wrong? /smacks professor. YOU'RE A LIAR!
     
  34. Doc4patient

    Doc4patient

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    I realized you have nothing to prove.
    1- Oh my God !
    2- Read page 11 and 12 again. You have a problem in understanding.
    N.B: Read this may help: http://quran.com/32/7-8
    Just a note: It seems i know about u regarding either embryology and quran.
     
  35. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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    There's no point in arguing with the delusional, they will rationalize away all dissonance with reckless abandon. So don't waste your time trying to convince him otherwise, just let him remain ignorant, it reduces future competition.
     
  36. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    Edit: No, The Qu'ran is just wrong. And I am smarter than you. That's science.
     
    Last edited: 02.19.12
  37. D elegans

    D elegans 2 1 5

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    Let's be proactive and :lock:
     
  38. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle

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    You don't have to legitimize your religion with us (we don't care). You can believe whatever you want to believe...along with your pro female genital mutilation agenda: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=818787
     
  39. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle

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    Quote for posterity

     
  40. K31

    K31 EM PGY-1

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    Remember kids, never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
     
  41. tiedyeddog

    tiedyeddog

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    I would prefer to see it go to the lounge... I am sure I could truly express myself there.
     
  42. JP2740

    JP2740

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    My mouth was literally wide open when i saw this
     
  43. K31

    K31 EM PGY-1

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    I agree. I want to see what the denizens of the Lounge can do with this.
     
  44. TenderRender

    TenderRender

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    I'm not talking about the Quran, I'm talking about the paper. Please, this isn't a religious thread. As you've said many times, this isn't about the Quran, this is about the paper. This also isn't my claim. From the paper, end of the first page:

    "then We made out of that chewed-like form, izam (skeleton, bones), then We clothed the bones with lahm (muscles, flesh)"

    Your paper clearly states this progression from skeleton/bones to muscles/flesh. You asked if this paper was correct or not, I'm telling you this part is not. I assume your paper correctly quotes the Quaran; either way, its either the paper or the source its quoting that is wrong.

    And please stop going off topic, this is about the paper, remember, not the Quaran.
     
  45. Shnurek

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  46. mleick

    mleick

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    from your link:


    The Quran has set a precedent 14 centuries before modern science, explaining in simple and direct terms about his "creation" of animals and their various functions and then assures us it is He who has the Power over everything. This statement includes the fact Allah can if He Wills, reshape and alter his creation as He Chooses. There is clear evidence within many species of alteration and changes within the species. However, there is no concrete evidence to support a cross over in development from one type to another, such as reptiles turning into birds or alligators turning into cows. The statements made in Quran are quite clear when Allah tells us of having brought forth other life forms and then destroying or replacing them with others. This again, does not imply evolution in the sense of one type becoming or changing into another.

    There is no DNA research pointing to a connection between apes and humans as was supposed by the scientists and those who had financed them over the years. In fact, the barnyard pig is closer to humans in many aspects, than a monkey or a gorilla. Consider the fact, doctors use the skin from pigs to replace needed tissue on burn victims and the famous movie actor, John Wayne had a pig's heart valve installed in his own heart in a 1977 operation to save his life. It worked, too - until his smoking caused him to die of cancer.
     
  47. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    bc the stuff was not in quotes.... I can't tell what your point is exactly. I am hoping your point was that the quran DOES make statements that modern science has shown to be inaccurate.
     
  48. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus

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    if anyone would know the answer to that it would be einhorn.....
     
  49. D elegans

    D elegans 2 1 5

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    :boom:
     
  50. scarshapedstar

    scarshapedstar MD c/o 2016

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    What PZ myers said.

    Not gonna quote the whole thing but, yeah, this 'revelation' is equal parts nonsense and observations that a 3 year old could have made.

    The fetus lives in a safe place? Who knew?! I thought it lived in a lion's den on top of a volcano...
     

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