Podiatry impressions?

[guria]

For those who are currently in Osteopathic schools, what are your thoughts on podiatry students who you may have met during your time at school?

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[GUH]

Why do you ask? Some are smarter and/ or harder-working than me, others are not. When I studied in a group, there were often one or more DPM students there and we were generally on the same page when we studied together.
WesternU definitely did not go easy on the Podiatry students (at least in the classes I took with them).

 

[NurWollen]

Why do you ask? Some are smarter and/ or harder-working than me, others are not. When I studied in a group, there were often one or more DPM students there and we were generally on the same page when we studied together.
WesternU definitely did not go easy on the Podiatry students (at least in the classes I took with them).

Same deal at AZCOM.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Came across more than a few DPM students in my rotations. While they clearly are pointed in one direction, it is pretty tough to tell the difference between a med student and a pod student when it comes to their skill/knowledge

 

[kp11]

They rely more on class grades than their board test (might be P/F), so they tend to be more intense than the average DO students. Not saying better or worse with grades, just more high strung about it (understandably).

 

[yanks26dmb]

I have a friend who is a pod student. he's got a really great work ethic and is very smart. he's unfortunately not the best test taker...but very smart nonetheless.

@kp11 brings up an interesting point....he always seems sooo stressed about his classes/tests. I never realized their grades were far more important than ours....which would explain why so many med students really don't care how they do, so long as they pass.

 

[GUH]

They rely more on class grades than their board test (might be P/F), so they tend to be more intense than the average DO students. Not saying better or worse with grades, just more high strung about it (understandably).

Their board exam is indeed pass/fail, so grades matter more for them if they want a good residency.

 

[NurWollen]

Their board exam is indeed pass/fail, so grades matter more for them if they want a good residency.

Also the ratio of graduates each year to residency spots for pods is >1:1, so they have to get good grades or get left behind when it comes to residency though. The pods students I know however have told me that they are working on fixing this by increasing spots while putting a moratorium on new schools and class size expansion.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Also the ratio of graduates each year to residency spots for pods is >1:1, so they have to get good grades or get left behind when it comes to residency though. The pods students I know however have told me that they are working on fixing this by increasing spots while putting a moratorium on new schools and class size expansion.

Do they need to do residency though? I thought that was only if they wanted to operate

 

[torontopharm]

Do they need to do residency though? I thought that was only if they wanted to operate

Residency is mandatory to practice is a Podiatrist. There's ongoing debate on whether or not this is necessary i.e. what if you don't wanna perform surgeries etc. The residency shortage situation seems to be improving compared to what it used to be. But yeah definitely something to keep in mind as a Pod applicant.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Residency is mandatory to practice is a Podiatrist. There's ongoing debate on whether or not this is necessary i.e. what if you don't wanna perform surgeries etc. The residency shortage situation seems to be improving compared to what it used to be. But yeah definitely something to keep in mind as a Pod applicant.

Residency program seem to opt out of matching from year to year and this creates a flux in the positions being offer. If they all were to offer spots each year, then the ratio would more likely be 1:1. I really hope they don't do away with residency, otherwise the schools won't care about expanding out and creating more jobless podiatrists.

 

[Seth Joo]

For those who are currently in Osteopathic schools, what are your thoughts on podiatry students who you may have met during your time at school?

DMU and AZCOM have Podiatry schools, also I believe Rosalind Franklin has a Podiatry school as well. No real impression of them. They work really hard. The Pod school at my university is supposedly very good at least the ones associated with a medical school have more legitimacy. Western has one too.

Some Podiatry graduates wind up becoming DOs. Nova has a program that allows DPMs to matriculate as advanced standing students.

 

[guria]

Thanks so much for the input guys! The reason why I asked is because Im in the process of applying to pod schools and I know some of them are associated with the school's med class. I wanted to get a general idea of how MD/DO students approach a DPM student.

Same deal at AZCOM.

DMU and AZCOM have Podiatry schools, also I believe Rosalind Franklin has a Podiatry school as well. No real impression of them. They work really hard. The Pod school at my university is supposedly very good at least the ones associated with a medical school have more legitimacy. Western has one too.

Some Podiatry graduates wind up becoming DOs. Nova has a program that allows DPMs to matriculate as advanced standing students.

Are you referring to Nova Southeastern University's DPM to DO program? Do you know of any other universities that provide this sort of program?

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[torontopharm]

Thanks so much for the input guys! The reason why I asked is because Im in the process of applying to pod schools and I know some of them are associated with the school's med class. I wanted to get a general idea of how MD/DO students approach a DPM student.

Are you referring to Nova Southeastern University's DPM to DO program? Do you know of any other universities that provide this sort of program?

I believe that's the only one. It's a really long route to become a DO though. I could be wrong about this, but this route would take 4 years of Pod school + 3 years of Pod residency + 3 years of DO curriculum + 1 year of DO internship amounting to a 11 year journey. Still could be an option to consider for those interested.

While we're at this, I have a dumb question. Can someone tell me what exactly " 1 year of Osteopathic medical internship" means? Is that essentially a rotation year or a residency year? Has to be residency right? Since M3 and M4 are when you do your rotations. I'm reading off this..
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/dodpm/curriculum.html

 

[AlteredScale]

I believe that's the only one. It's a really long route to become a DO though. I could be wrong about this, but this route would take 4 years of Pod school + 3 years of Pod residency + 3 years of DO curriculum + 1 year of DO internship amounting to a 11 year journey. Still could be an option to consider for those interested.

While we're at this, I have a dumb question. Can someone tell me what exactly " 1 year of Osteopathic medical internship" means? Is that essentially a rotation year or a residency year? Has to be residency right? Since M3 and M4 are when you do your rotations. I'm reading off this..
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/dodpm/curriculum.html

It just means PGY-1. I'm assuming they mean an AOA internship for residency.

 

[NurWollen]

A POD to DO program could realistically be completed in a year, maybe year-and-a-half. I don't know if accreditors would allow it, but it would certainly be doable. Given 1-2 months of free study time and an OMM course I'm convinced most pod students could do just fine on the COMLEX and USMLE.

 

[Seth Joo]

Nova has a program for Podiatrists to become DPMs, apparently its for DPMs currently in residency programs. I think its for those so they can have full surgical practice rights or something like that.

 

[hse]

Nova has a program for Podiatrists to become DPMs

lol

 

[IslandStyle808]

A POD to DO program could realistically be completed in a year, maybe year-and-a-half. I don't know if accreditors would allow it, but it would certainly be doable. Given 1-2 months of free study time and an OMM course I'm convinced most pod students could do just fine on the COMLEX and USMLE.

From what I have read, they actually use First Aid and some of the resources medical students use to study for the APMLE. Some pod students on the SDN forum have even gone as far to say they would rather take the USMLE than the APMLE (test is that badly written).

 

[Seth Joo]

lol

I meant DOs.

 

[NurWollen]

From what I have read, they actually use First Aid and some of the resources medical students use to study for the APMLE. Some pod students on the SDN forum have even gone as far to say they would rather take the USMLE than the APMLE (test is that badly written).

One thing that is weird is that my school gives us 1 month of dedicated Level 1/Step 1 study time and gives the pods about 2 weeks. Then they all take their test on the same day since there are only a couple of dates, and then they go back for a few more didactic classes. How bad would that suck? Take a board exam and then go back to the lecture hall!

 

[IslandStyle808]

One thing that is weird is that my school gives us 1 month of dedicated Level 1/Step 1 study time and gives the pods about 2 weeks. Then they all take their test on the same day since there are only a couple of dates, and then they go back for a few more didactic classes. How bad would that suck? Take a board exam and then go back to the lecture hall!

So basically their education is not complete before taking the APMLE? If that is true then that is ludicrous!

 

[NurWollen]

Ed,

Congrats on the move and the decision. I am going through the same thing with my father- Non-Small Cell Lung Ca with mets to the brain. Not a great prognosis.

Anyway, I've just recently completed my masters in exercise physiology and am currently putting together an oncology rehab program for people who have Cancer Related Fatigue (CRF). I had been looking into PA programs when the great majority of the docs and residents that I work with steered me into going for med school. I should be finished with the rest of my pre-reqs within two years (I'm 32) with a goal of being in practice in my early 40's. Someone of divine wisdom passed this message on to me- "You're going to be 40 regardless of what you do- so you might as well do what you want". Seemed appropriate for me at the time and I haven't forgotten it.

Good Luck,

I'm sure it works out somehow. They all pass, and AZPOD is well respected in the pod community. Maybe the classes they have after boards fall under the "not on boards but stuff you should know" category.

In all reality, they're the ones laughing since their tuition is 20k/year less then ours, for basically the same classes.

 

[Pisiform]

never seen a podiatrist in my life. I just hang out with OMM gods with foot fetish

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm sure it works out somehow. They all pass, and AZPOD is well respected in the pod community. Maybe the classes they have after boards fall under the "not on boards but stuff you should know" category.

In all reality, they're the ones laughing since their tuition is 20k/year less then ours, for basically the same classes.

It's most likely a salary thing. Considering that podiatrists earn less than most physicians (except the pods doing nothing but surgery), they probably made it cheaper for that reason. I know what you mean though kind of a strange thought.

 

[FootAndAnkle]

So basically their education is not complete before taking the APMLE? If that is true then that is ludicrous!

Classes taken after boards focus more on content covered in APMLE Part II rather than Part I.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It's most likely a salary thing. Considering that podiatrists earn less than most physicians (except the pods doing nothing but surgery), they probably made it cheaper for that reason. I know what you mean though kind of a strange thought.

You're paying for an education and not a salary. The difference in tuition is simple: schools rip you off as much as they can. As long as podiatry is not a profession where students are basically elbowing each other out of the way to get in, the schools will keep the price artificially low. Dentists make less on average than physicians, yet they pay a lot more tuition at my school.

 

[yanks26dmb]

A POD to DO program could realistically be completed in a year, maybe year-and-a-half. I don't know if accreditors would allow it, but it would certainly be doable. Given 1-2 months of free study time and an OMM course I'm convinced most pod students could do just fine on the COMLEX and USMLE.

Aren't we talking about students who, on average, are pulling a 22 on the (old) MCAT?

I'm not so sure they'd be able to handle the steps or COMLEX...

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Aren't we talking about students who, on average, are pulling a 22 on the (old) MCAT?

I'm not so sure they'd be able to handle the steps or COMLEX...

At least at my school the students that are weakest tend to drop out fairly early on or repeat first year. The ones that succeed in our curriculum should have no problem at all with the boards since they take the same classes. I think it wouldn't even take a year to train them to do OMM and make the transition. However, there is no reason at all to create these programs. If they wanted to be DOs, they should have done a masters or grade replacement.

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

Aren't we talking about students who, on average, are pulling a 22 on the (old) MCAT?

I'm not so sure they'd be able to handle the steps or COMLEX...

OP it seems like POD schools have issues with residency placement...I would look into the validity of that since it is crucial to have residency training in order to practice..

 

[IslandStyle808]

You're paying for an education and not a salary. The difference in tuition is simple: schools rip you off as much as they can. As long as podiatry is not a profession where students are basically elbowing each other out of the way to get in, the schools will keep the price artificially low. Dentists make less on average than physicians, yet they pay a lot more tuition at my school.

Education doesn't work on a pure competition model. Even with rising tuition costs in all facets of education, there is still increased competition. It has not yet hit the point where getting higher education in not worth it. I think competition is a contributing factor, but not a large as you believe it to be. Dental school is just as expensive as medical school, but not as competitive. Thus, doesn't support your point. So there has to be something more to it than that.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Education doesn't work on a pure competition model. Even with rising tuition costs in all facets of education, there is still increased competition. It has not yet hit the point where getting higher education in not worth it. I think competition is a contributing factor, but not a large as you believe it to be. Dental school is just as expensive as medical school, but not as competitive. Thus, doesn't support your point. So there has to be something more to it than that.

Maybe medical education (using the term broadly), but certainly all the humanities and social science degrees are garbage unless you get a graduate degree. The cost on them still hasn't gone down because people think they are worth something.

 

[yanks26dmb]

At least at my school the students that are weakest tend to drop out fairly early on or repeat first year. The ones that succeed in our curriculum should have no problem at all with the boards since they take the same classes. I think it wouldn't even take a year to train them to do OMM and make the transition. However, there is no reason at all to create these programs. If they wanted to be DOs, they should have done a masters or grade replacement.

I think a lot of these POD students may actually be very smart, but as is often the case, poor standardized test takers. From talking to a couple pod students, it seems like a lot wanted MD/DO but settled for pod because they couldnt get past the MCAT.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Maybe medical education (using the term broadly), but certainly all the humanities and social science degrees are garbage unless you get a graduate degree. The cost on them still hasn't gone down because people think they are worth something.

It is tougher to put a value on such degrees, since there is more breath to baccalaureate education. The classes in humanities and social sciences fulfill requirements for other majors. There is also the fact that people will double major in those subjects along with something more valuable like economics or engineering. The majority of degrees would have to be not worth the cost before you really see people not going to college.

I do agree that what is keeping those degrees alive as a whole is graduate education that stems from undergraduate education.

 

[FootAndAnkle]

I think a lot of these POD students may actually be very smart, but as is often the case, poor standardized test takers. From talking to a couple pod students, it seems like a lot wanted MD/DO but settled for pod because they couldnt get past the MCAT.

This may be the case for some, but I wouldn't generalize that to all pod students. I was admitted to a couple DO schools and declined an MD interview (US), so pod isn't just a back-up (more like dentistry, where you have to choose beforehand, but your patients like you better ).

 

[yanks26dmb]

This may be the case for some, but I wouldn't generalize that to all pod students. I was admitted to a couple DO schools and declined an MD interview (US), so pod isn't just a back-up (more like dentistry, where you have to choose beforehand, but your patients like you better ).

To be clear, I don't absolutely equate scoring well on standardized tests to intelligence. I think there are many factors that can define intelligence.

That said, people like yourself who obviously excel at standardized tests have to be pretty rare in pod school, right? I mean, how else can you have an incoming average of 23/24...?

 

[AlteredScale]

Aren't we talking about students who, on average, are pulling a 22 on the (old) MCAT?

I'm not so sure they'd be able to handle the steps or COMLEX...

I believe a Pod student could get through an MD/DO pre-clinical curriculum, but they would not make it through boards. USMLE Step 1 and APLME Part 1 are on two whole different worlds in terms of difficulty. APMLE is much more straightforward with 1st and 2nd order questions dominating the majority of the exam. Step 1 is step 1.

This is why Pod schools tend to accept students with MCAT scores below the avg matriculant MCAT score of any MD and most DO programs.

Does that make podiatry less of a medical professor than others based on the rigor of a single exam? Not at all. They are a very integral part of the healthcare team.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I believe a Pod student could get through an MD/DO pre-clinical curriculum, but they would not make it through boards. USMLE Step 1 and APLME Part 1 are on two whole different worlds in terms of difficulty. APMLE is much more straightforward with 1st and 2nd order questions dominating the majority of the exam. Step 1 is step 1.

This is why Pod schools tend to accept students with MCAT scores below the avg matriculant MCAT score of any MD and most DO programs.

Does that make podiatry less of a medical professor than others based on the rigor of a single exam? Not at all. They are a very integral part of the healthcare team.

Yah I agree. I don't think pod students are less doctors, not important, etc.

I, like you, don't see the vast majority being able to handle comlex or usmle, considering they couldn't handle the mcat.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

I mean the MCAT score is just matter of which school would have the first dip at the application pool. The pecking order now is MD, DO, then Pod. So of course MD schools would have highest MCAT, then DO, then Pod. It absolute not conclusable that because Pod student have lower MCAT average then they would not handle the USMLE or Complex. Otherwise, MD students would look at us and say DO students cannot handle USMLE because we have lower MCAT than their

 

[AlteredScale]

I mean the MCAT score is just matter of which school would have the first dip at the application pool. The pecking order now is MD, DO, then Pod. So of course MD schools would have highest MCAT, then DO, then Pod. It absolute not conclusable that because Pod student have lower MCAT average then they would not handle the USMLE or Complex. Otherwise, MD students would look at us and say DO students cannot handle USMLE because we have lower MCAT than their

there is a floor for the mcat showing that anyone below a 24 is at a high risk of failing steps. Since the MCAT avg of most Pod schools are below that, they would be at a higher risk for failing usmle than MD or DO classes. Same could be said for any DO school with an avg that low (UP-kentucky COM had an avg of 22 in the beginning).

 

[Giovanotto]

there is a floor for the mcat showing that anyone below a 24 is at a high risk of failing steps. Since the MCAT avg of most Pod schools are below that, they would be at a higher risk for failing usmle than MD or DO classes. Same could be said for any DO school with an avg that low (UP-kentucky COM had an avg of 22 in the beginning).

I may be wrong, but doesn't that "floor" take into account a lower GPA and an MCAT score below 24? If I remember the study, the board pass rates were dependent on both GPA and MCAT score (i.e. a 4.0gpa and 24MCAT was not at a significant risk of failing boards).

 

[Cskidd359]

I believe a Pod student could get through an MD/DO pre-clinical curriculum, but they would not make it through boards. USMLE Step 1 and APLME Part 1 are on two whole different worlds in terms of difficulty. APMLE is much more straightforward with 1st and 2nd order questions dominating the majority of the exam. Step 1 is step 1.

This is why Pod schools tend to accept students with MCAT scores below the avg matriculant MCAT score of any MD and most DO programs.

Does that make podiatry less of a medical professor than others based on the rigor of a single exam? Not at all. They are a very integral part of the healthcare team.

Pod schools accept people with lower MCAT scores not because it's easier, but because the number of people applying to podiatry school is very close to the number of podiatry school seats. Its a buyer's market. The application process is as close to non-competitive as it gets.

Although the pass rate would be lower among Pod students compared to DO students and MD students for the USMLE because the schools are taking in alot more "poor test takers", it would not be a majority. It would also be heavily dependent upon the schools. The schools directly linked into the DO curriculum (the MD ones don't mix classes last time I checked) would probably have a very strong pass rate for the USMLE, while certain pod schools that resemble tuition mills would probably struggle to get their students through the USMLE.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Pod schools accept people with lower MCAT scores not because it's easier, but because the number of people applying to podiatry school is very close to the number of podiatry school seats. Its a buyer's market. The application process is as close to non-competitive as it gets.

Although the pass rate would be lower among Pod students compared to DO students and MD students for the USMLE because the schools are taking in alot more "poor test takers", it would not be a majority. It would also be heavily dependent upon the schools. The schools directly linked into the DO curriculum (the MD ones don't mix classes last time I checked) would probably have a very strong pass rate for the USMLE, while certain pod schools that resemble tuition mills would probably struggle to get their students through the USMLE.

Correct!

If the pool had higher stats, then the matriculant stats would go up. No one yet has mentioned that Pod school actually have a rather high attrition rate versus medical school. There are people who should not be in pod school in the first place.

Medical school is no different. If it were a buyer's market, you would see those matriculant averages tank. I would make a bet they would still take those with 20-24 MCAT score people if they were the best candidate to fill the rest of their seats.

 

[AlteredScale]

From what I recall, even though integrated DPM programs within DO programs have the same courses, their exams are different. I was just saying that I would find it hard to say confidently that a class that was by majority at or below a 24 mcat avg would have a similar pass rate to a DO or MD program whose avg was above a 30 simply on the basis of test taking abilities for STs. I may just be talking g our my butt though since I have no evidence to back my argument! Obviously I have no real hard stand on this topic since I have no ground for it.

 

[W19]

I remember seeing some stats about the MCAT and the possibly of failing step1... 24 MCAT vs. 30+ passed step1 at almost the same %... I believe it was 92% vs 96%. They did not mention average score though.

People have to remember that med school was not extremely competitive 20+ years ago... It's strange that med school has gotten so competitive when tuition is skyrocketing and docs working condition has become much worst.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I remember seeing some stats about the MCAT and the possibly of failing step1... 24 MCAT vs. 30+ passed step1 at almost the same %... I believe it was 92% vs 96%. They did not mention average score though.

People have to remember that med school was not extremely competitive 20+ years ago... It's strange that med school has gotten so competitive when tuition is skyrocketing and docs working condition has become much worst.

It's because the other options are not as viable as before. For instance, the supply of lawyers coming out of law school is exceeding the demand for them. It is not that easy to get into those lucrative jobs as they used to be. Also, medicine is one of the few careers that provides both great job security and rather good compensation. This explosion of competition probably started around the recession of 2007, maybe even before that.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I believe that's the only one. It's a really long route to become a DO though. I could be wrong about this, but this route would take 4 years of Pod school + 3 years of Pod residency + 3 years of DO curriculum + 1 year of DO internship amounting to a 11 year journey. Still could be an option to consider for those interested.

While we're at this, I have a dumb question. Can someone tell me what exactly " 1 year of Osteopathic medical internship" means? Is that essentially a rotation year or a residency year? Has to be residency right? Since M3 and M4 are when you do your rotations. I'm reading off this..
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/dodpm/curriculum.html

Why would anyone do this is beyond me. Pods do just fine on their own. I had a DPM guy who did surgery all the time on inpatient diabetics with nonhealing ulcers or necrotic tissue at my old hospital. I doubt he losses sleep at night over being a podiatrist. Its still surgery and outpatient practice with basically no overnight call. Its not a bad gig.

 

[Seth Joo]

there is a floor for the mcat showing that anyone below a 24 is at a high risk of failing steps. Since the MCAT avg of most Pod schools are below that, they would be at a higher risk for failing usmle than MD or DO classes. Same could be said for any DO school with an avg that low (UP-kentucky COM had an avg of 22 in the beginning).

Almost every year the better Podiatry students at my school drop out and reapply to the DO school, the reason being is that there is just so much opportunity for a DO as opposed to a DPM, also loan repayment programs are more numerous for DOs and MDs, also Nurses whereas there are none for Podiatrists. The Podiatry program at Midwestern University is actually very rigorous.

 

[W19]

It's because the other options are not as viable as before. For instance, the supply of lawyers coming out of law school is exceeding the demand for them. It is not that easy to get into those lucrative jobs as they used to be. Also, medicine is one of the few careers that provides both great job security and rather good compensation. This explosion of competition probably started around the recession of 2007, maybe even before that.

The healthcare industry is definitely more recession proof than most other industries, but with the expansion of most programs (MD/DO, PharmD, PA, NP, RN etc...) in the recent years, the industry will be less safe than it has been. PharmD and RN in many places are already feeling the pressure.