possible to be a Surgeon-Scientist?

[pioneer22]

Hi,

I was wondering if it is a possible path to be a surgeon-scientist (like physician-scientist), where you do, say 70-30 or 60-40 clinic / surgery - research. Like a cardiothoracic surgeon seeing patients and doing cardiovascular genetics research and lung cancer research, or an orthopaedic surgeon researching tissue engineering, etc. To be a surgeon with time spent researching advancing fields, like CRISPR-CAS9, and immunology?

Is it possible to have this as a career?

Thanks

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[eteshoe]

It's possible, just incredibly difficult. Realistically you won't be able to secure significant funding with less than 50% effort being put towards your research program.

Just don't expect to be the best surgeon or scientist.

Do expect to work like a dog though for less pay than your pure clinical colleagues if you stay in an academic setting.

Do expect to be under incredible pressure to do well on both fronts or concede to taking up a heavier clinical load.

Maybe eventually you'll wanna settle down and make time for your family - the surgeon scientist path may not be the most conducive to such a lifestyle.

Just some things to consider since the surgeon scientist path is IMO a bit more difficult one than the physician scientist one but I have come across a couple that are successfully doing both. They're incredibly driven, organized and brilliant. Good luck!

 

[PL198]

yes

 

[pioneer22]

It's possible, just incredibly difficult. Realistically you won't be able to secure significant funding with less than 50% effort being put towards your research program.

Just don't expect to be the best surgeon or scientist.

Do expect to work like a dog though for less pay than your pure clinical colleagues if you stay in an academic setting.

Do expect to be under incredible pressure to do well on both fronts or concede to taking up a heavier clinical load.

Maybe eventually you'll wanna settle down and make time for your family - the surgeon scientist path may not be the most conducive to such a lifestyle.

Just some things to consider since the surgeon scientist path is IMO a bit more difficult one than the physician scientist one but I have come across a couple that are successfully doing both. They're incredibly driven, organized and brilliant. Good luck!

Thanks!

Would it be a more reasonable possibility to be a member (not top name that secures funding) of a research lab initially, and over time secure more funding and possibly lead a lab later on in your career?

 

[giantswing]

Thanks!

Would it be a more reasonable possibility to be a member (not top name that secures funding) of a research lab initially, and over time secure more funding and possibly lead a lab later on in your career?

I know a lot of MDs who collaborate w PhDs and publish a ton, don't know about running your own lab.

Out of curiosity why would you want to run your own lab as well as your own practice, when you could be very involved with even basic science research without one?

 

[pioneer22]

I know a lot of MDs who collaborate w PhDs and publish a ton, don't know about running your own lab.

Out of curiosity why would you want to run your own lab as well as your own practice, when you could be very involved with even basic science research without one?

Good point. I am not saying running a lab is paramount importance, as combining research with the practice of medicine is more important to me, but I mentioned running a lab since it could have more application to your clinical aspect that way, but I guess finding a suitable lab would be equivalent to that.

 

[eteshoe]

Thanks!

Would it be a more reasonable possibility to be a member (not top name that secures funding) of a research lab initially, and over time secure more funding and possibly lead a lab later on in your career?

Hmm...maybe. You'd have to be in a really rare situation to do what you seem to be suggesting.

It's more feasible to do a Postdoc during/after your fellowship training where you get training, gather data, and apply for early career awards and faculty jobs.

I've seen some labs that have two PIs (scientific partnership) - a basic scientist and a clinician/surgeon. They both facilitate in training grad students, fellows, Postdocs, etc. IMO it's a cool system since one person isn't expected to be the absolute expert in everything. Though I guess the challenge would be finding a basic scientist you trust/know well enough to establish a lab together.

 

[pioneer22]

Hmm...maybe. You'd have to be in a really rare situation to do what you seem to be suggesting.

It's more feasible to do a Postdoc during/after your fellowship training where you get training, gather data, and apply for early career awards and faculty jobs.

I've seen some labs that have two PIs (scientific partnership) - a basic scientist and a clinician/surgeon. They both facilitate in training grad students, fellows, Postdocs, etc. IMO it's a cool system since one person isn't expected to be the absolute expert in everything. Though I guess the challenge would be finding a basic scientist you trust/know well enough to establish a lab together.

That makes sense. Would you deem a PhD necessary for an aspiring surgeon-scientist? Or a post-bacc / research year?

 

[Donald Juan]

That makes sense. Would you deem a PhD necessary for an aspiring surgeon-scientist? Or a post-bacc / research year?

PhD would certainly help, but not be necessary. And if you truly wanted to pursue this type of career, a post-bacc/research year at this point would be a waste of time, it would behoove you more to do research years during residency and fellowship.

 

[giantswing]

You can certainly do clinical stuff without running a lab.

 

[pioneer22]

PhD would certainly help, but not be necessary. And if you truly wanted to pursue this type of career, a post-bacc/research year at this point would be a waste of time, it would behoove you more to do research years during residency and fellowship.

Is it true that some programs allow you to get a PhD during residency?

 

[Donald Juan]

Is it true that some programs allow you to get a PhD during residency?

I don't know...maybe? If you really want the PhD, then get it during med school with the MD/PhD. Many MD/PhDs go into surgical fields.

 

[Bethany555]

Is it true that some programs allow you to get a PhD during residency?

Yes (or fellowship) at some schools. In particular, I knew a few fellows that extended their 2-3 year fellowship to 4-5 years and got a PhD too. That's 2 extra years for a PhD. That's even shorter than an MD/PhD! The huge downside is you don't get tuition + stipend during medical school, you don't get bonus points for matching into your desired residency, and you are giving up a physician's salary.

 

[pioneer22]

Yes (or fellowship) at some schools. In particular, I knew a few fellows that extended their 2-3 year fellowship to 4-5 years and got a PhD too. That's 2 extra years for a PhD. That's even shorter than an MD/PhD! The huge downside is you don't get tuition + stipend during medical school, you don't get bonus points for matching into your desired residency, and you are giving up a physician's salary.

wow! very cool.
Thanks for the link

 

[PL198]

jesus md/phd then into a surg residency which will take a while. brb becoming attending at 40

 

[mw18]

There are plenty of MD surgeons (without PhD) at major research institutions that have a clinical practice and a productive lab. Now what their career looked like in their young attending days to get there, I'm not sure.

 

[PL198]

I guess I wonder about the typical surgeon scientist personality? I feel like most surgeons would hate research and think it's a waste of time, much more so than other specialties. So it seems a pretty unique combo.

 

[pioneer22]

I guess I wonder about the typical surgeon scientist personality? I feel like most surgeons would hate research and think it's a waste of time, much more so than other specialties. So it seems a pretty unique combo.

Why would you think surgeons hate research?

 

[eteshoe]

Why would you think surgeons hate research?

It's not that they hate research - it's just that the types of personalities (just my opinion) that tend to go into surgery don't tend to be the types that typically like basic research to the point of wanting to establish that type of lab. A lot of the surgeons I know are definitely more into clinical or translational research than basic science but that's just from my n=1 experience

 

[Bethany555]

Back in undergrad, I remember listening to a lecture from this guy: http://bbs.yale.edu/people/murat_gunel.profile He is the chief of neurosurgery, so he does a significant amount of administrative work. Apparently, he also sees patients and runs a high-powered lab (with multiple R01s), so I guess anything is possible.

 

[Paperbag]

One of my friends works for an ENT MD/PhD, so yes very possible! You'll have to hire a ton of post-docs and lab techs to make sure your lab runs smoothly while you're in the OR


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[Law2Doc]

It's possible but a lot of work, and you'll likely make a lot less money than those who just opt to do clinical work. You absolutely don't need a PhD and probably shouldn't bother with one if you are primarily going to be "a surgeon who does research" rather than the other way round. Here's a gross oversimplification of the path, from the perspective of someone not actually on this exact path, but based on some insight through others.

Do research in med school. Ideally go to one of those surgery residencies that allows an extra year or two of research so you can continue to be a productive researcher during residency. Continue research as much as possible through the rest of residency and fellowship to build up your CV - publications will matter a lot when you apply for grants. Go into an academic path as an attending after residency. Pick a place that prizes research but maybe not one that already has too many big name researchers it already caters to -- an up and coming place that wants to be more research oriented is probably a better launch pad than one where your funding would be just a drop in the ocean. Apply for grants. These grants will require that you commit X% of your time on the research effort. It's a lot of paperwork and the place you are at may or may not be very helpful. Line up residents, fellows and maybe med students to work on various aspects of your research so you get to be the PI on a bunch of projects simultaneously -- this will be important for your academic career and for getting more grants. Once you are bringing in enough grant money, your academic employer will set you up with a lab. You don't need to align yourself with scientists and set a lab up on your own -- once the money is coming in your employer will invest more in you (double down) in this way. Then you can actually just hire people to work on your projects without relying on the sometimes flighty schedules of med students/residents/fellows and can relegate these people to the tangential topics. Publish a lot, speak at lots of meetings, become the expert in some area. All while trying to juggle your clinical schedule which never gets to be the backseat.

So basically in a nutshell this is the path -- as best I can tell. You'll work a lot harder than the clinicians and earn a lot less. But you'll get to be a bigshot at national meetings, with the hospital administration, and probably have more job security. And you don't really need a PhD to do it.

 

[trini818]

Hi,

I was wondering if it is a possible path to be a surgeon-scientist (like physician-scientist), where you do, say 70-30 or 60-40 clinic / surgery - research. Like a cardiothoracic surgeon seeing patients and doing cardiovascular genetics research and lung cancer research, or an orthopaedic surgeon researching tissue engineering, etc. To be a surgeon with time spent researching advancing fields, like CRISPR-CAS9, and immunology?

Is it possible to have this as a career?

Thanks

Definitely possible. My former PI is a thoracic surgeon at a NCI designated cancer center. He just recieved a large grant from a foundation and is working on his first R01. He seemed tired sometimes, but I think he was happy and excited to participate in research. It was also great for me because he could consent his patients for participating in the research by donating their tissue.

 

[trini818]

That makes sense. Would you deem a PhD necessary for an aspiring surgeon-scientist? Or a post-bacc / research year?

A PhD is definitely not necessary. In fact, I would suggest not to get it.

 

[PL198]

Why would you think surgeons hate research?

because surgery and research are pretty much complete opposites. surgery is an intervention that fixes stuff now, yields immediate results and is tangible. research commonly results in nothing, and the stuff that does result in something takes an indefinite amount of time and is very intangible.