Post-doc salaries, what should be the standard?

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Rivi

Rivi

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Hello everyone,

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts about post-doc salaries, and what is a fair, reasonable salary. There is quite a range out there amongst formal post docs, from high 20's to high 40's from the majority of what I see on the list-servs. What is also frustrating is that applicants don't have any real room for negotiation, and I wonder if this opens the door for exploitation. I personally find anything less than 40k a year with benefits to be insultingly low, and I wonder if this is an issue that we need to address as a field. What are your thoughts?
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Uh... Internship and postdoctoral residencies are normally under 40,000. It is better in terms of salary to apply for full time jobs in the 60,000 range rather than the formal fellowship in most cases. You could move to one of the states that do not require the postdoctoral such as Washington, Arizona, and Alabama but you would risks losing reciprocity to other states that require the postdoctoral year for licensure. Some states require two years of postdoctoral such as Louisiana.


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Rivi said:
Hello everyone,

I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts about post-doc salaries, and what is a fair, reasonable salary. There is quite a range out there amongst formal post docs, from high 20's to high 40's from the majority of what I see on the list-servs. What is also frustrating is that applicants don't have any real room for negotiation, and I wonder if this opens the door for exploitation. I personally find anything less than 40k a year with benefits to be insultingly low, and I wonder if this is an issue that we need to address as a field. What are your thoughts?
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Postdocs usually have to work ~60 hrs/week for around 35 k/year. That's why ph.D stands for pizza hot Deliveryman lol
 
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OneNeuroDoctor said:
Uh... Internship and postdoctoral residencies are normally under 40,000. It is better in terms of salary to apply for full time jobs in the 60,000 range rather than the formal fellowship in most cases. You could move to one of the states that do not require the postdoctoral such as Washington, Arizona, and Alabama but you would risks losing reciprocity to other states that require the postdoctoral year for licensure. Some states require two years of postdoctoral such as Louisiana.


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I didn't think the norm for post-doc salaries was under 40k. I applied for post-docs this year, and the majority of (State hospital, neuro, or VA) sites were at least 40k. To me, post-docs do more work or about as much works as full-time social workers, master's level clinicians, etc. yet are paid much less for it during that year. That is my point, are we allowing ourselves to be underpaid during this year?
 
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Rivi said:
I didn't think the norm for post-doc salaries was under 40k. I applied for post-docs this year, and the majority of (State hospital, neuro, or VA) sites were at least 40k. To me, post-docs do more work or about as much works as full-time social workers, master's level clinicians, etc. yet are paid much less for it during that year. That is my point, are we allowing ourselves to be underpaid during this year?
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I said most not all. I had three offers in formal post docs with the lowest at $25000 at a University counseling center and the highest at $38000 at a private mental health center. I ended up taking a full time position at $60000 and they pay $600 bucks a month for outside supervision.


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OneNeuroDoctor said:
I said most not all. I had three offers in formal post docs with the lowest at $25000 at a University counseling center and the highest at $38000 at a private mental health center. I ended up taking a full time position at $60000 and they pay $600 bucks a month for outside supervision.
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How can your work be "supervised" if the person doesn't meet the patient and doesn't even work there? That's a new one to me.
 
I think formal post-doctoral training programs for those that want to do forensic applications, and health/primary care psych is highly advisable. Most psychologist simply do not have these skills sets after internship.
 
Depends on the type of postdoc and institution. The VA's all have it listed and it's set according to a predetermined pay scale, so no negotiation possible, but not a big deal imo. Mine was 48 and 50 for years 1 and 2.
 
erg923 said:
How can your work be "supervised" if the person doesn't meet the patient and doesn't even work there?!
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Licensing board does not require that your supervisor works where you are employed. Postdoctoral positions are not available or there is a shortage in the state I work in and the licensing board is considering not requiring postdoctoral year but it would limit reciprocity to other states. I believe Wisconsin is considering not requiring the postdoctoral year or oral exams.


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Well my state doesn't require one either and I went straight into an academic/faculty position from internship, so I don't care so much about whether states require one or not. The point was that the rationale for requiring post-doctoral hours is pretty much lost if you have a "supervisor" who cant really observe your performance. That just seems like half-ass supervision to me. Are you at least taping sessions? And if you are operating under his/her license, then how can he/she sign off on patients who he/she has never laid eyes on?
 
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erg923 said:
Well my state doesn't require one either and went straight into a academic faculty position from internship, so I don't care so much about whether states require one or not. The point was that the rationale is pretty much lost if you have a supervisor who cant really observe your performance. Are you at least taping sessions? And if you are operating under his/her license, then how can he/she sign off on patients who he/she has never laid eyes on?
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I guess my position is a hybrid position as my supervisor is a consultant for my employer. He sees patients at my employer and I also work with him in his independent practice so they see the patients I work with in both settings. We cosign all reports as required by the licensing board. At the postdoctoral level, I don't believe the supervisor is required to see all of my patients but I have to disclose I am being supervised and I am provisionally licensed.

Hmmm... Normally at internship and fellowship, supervisors do not sit in on sessions or require videotaping...that is more common on practicums.

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WisNeuro said:
Mine was 48 and 50 for years 1 and 2.
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Now that's what I am talking about. That seems like a reasonable salary to me, given the amount of training you had at that point. I have a VA post-doc lined up as well that pays similar (but not quite as much). If I was geographically restricted during this process, however, I would probably be getting paid a lot less, as many of my geographically restricted friends are.
 
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WisNeuro said:
Yeah, I got in person supervision for at least some of my early interviews/testing. Having absolutely none of that on internship and fellowship is definitely no bueno.
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We did to...Orientation for sessions and initial testing supervisors did sit in and we did do groups together during internships but we did not need to do video or audio taping as supervisors were onsite. Supervisors could sit in on sessions as needed.
However, for postdoctoral year, supervisor could sit in but I do not believe it is as common as during predoctoral internship year.


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MCParent said:
Is it? I taped my sessions on internship. I love watching tape.

I too am struck by that set up for supervision.
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Live supervision was part of all my training experiences at every level. And yes, even when I was seeing clients in the counseling center when I was faculty the director watched tape and took extensive notes. That what supervision is to me. Again, this us an ethical issue as much as a training issue. You can't vouch for treatment appropriateness or treatment quality if you never actually see it.

I mean, how can a Psychologist feel comfortable being liable for patients and treatment he has never seen?
 
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Part of the problem is that if you aren't licensed, sites aren't always able to bill for your services, which is going to lower salaries. The way I see it, postdocs are paid about the same as medical residents and, I believe, fellows. So hey, at least we aren't alone in that respect. The difference, of course, is that medical residents can also moonlight, although I suppose a psychology postdoc could do the same once licensed (e.g., if you're in a state that doesn't require the postdoc year).

As for what I consider fair, I'd say $40-50k. And if sites are going to pay that amount, then they should provide other resources to make it "worth your while" so to speak (e.g., formal supervision, didactics, etc.).

I interviewed at a few places that were in the low to mid-30's (some in very high cost of living areas), and honestly, salary came into play when I was making my decisions.

The good news for places yoked to the NIH pay scale is that they upped their salary to $42k this year, so that should help out a bit.
 
Maybe I'm a little confused here. My plan is a career in a UCC. Can't I apply for full time positions after I graduate as long as the UCC knows I need supervision for the next year to obtain licensure? This isn't a formal post doc, just a job with supervision. Similar to anyone looking for full time work with a masters degree.
I know many UCCs have formal post docs but I'm hoping to get on with my career. Any reason why this won't work?
 
G Costanza said:
Maybe I'm a little confused here. My plan is a career in a UCC. Can't I apply for full time positions after I graduate as long as the UCC knows I need supervision for the next year to obtain licensure? This isn't a formal post doc, just a job with supervision. Similar to anyone looking for full time work with a masters degree.
I know many UCCs have formal post docs but I'm hoping to get on with my career. Any reason why this won't work?
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Yes, this is very common. This is what I have done and my supervisor is a contractor for the hospital I work at. Many formal post docs go unfilled due to low wages. If you get a job at a UCC and they have a licensed psychologist they may provide your supervision as it is only one hour per week.


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G Costanza said:
Maybe I'm a little confused here. My plan is a career in a UCC. Can't I apply for full time positions after I graduate as long as the UCC knows I need supervision for the next year to obtain licensure? This isn't a formal post doc, just a job with supervision. Similar to anyone looking for full time work with a masters degree.
I know many UCCs have formal post docs but I'm hoping to get on with my career. Any reason why this won't work?
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I don't see a reason that wouldn't work as well. The main reason/advantages for a formal postdoc over going straight into a job are going to be additional advanced training (e.g., for neuro, forensics, health, rehab, etc.), didactics, existing structure to provide supervision, and access to some sort of formal grievance process...which you essentially gain in exchange for decreased pay. Also, it can sometimes be easier to contact formal postdocs sites after the fact if you move and need to re-verify supervision hours for licensing in a new state.

The main thing you'll want to verify is that the job is going to provide the amount of supervision you need in your particular state, which can vary. Also, as with any job, be sure to read your contract in case it contains things like non-compete clauses and the like.
 
One thing I was struck by while interviewing for postdocs this year was the greater variability in hours required per week. At some sites the fellows stated they were working 60 plus per week (with some of them, their overall mental status appeared to provide verification of this). Other sites, the fellows were open about it being 40-45 per week. The thing was, these were all formal, regulated sites for training. I can't imagine what it would be like at some of these unpaid gigs I've heard about out in Cali with regards to oversight.
 
I would think that 45k is about right currently. I made 38k during mine in 2010 and we paid the post-doc I supervised 47k in 2013. If you need to do an informal post-doc, which is what many grads will need to do, then make sure to use a credentials banking service to facilitate record keeping for licensure and improve mobility.
 
I was in the low 40s for mine (2010). The other university fellows (AMC/VA) were in the low to mid 40s.

The salary was fair for a fellowship….not counting the 70hr/wks, but in line w. other fellowship salaries.
 
If you're coming from a solid program, opening bids should pretty much start at ~40k. Many places will supplement benefits, even if not the stipend. I don't know anyone who seriously considered positions that paid less. If worst came to worst, I'd find my own funding before taking something that paid 25k. How counseling centers find people is beyond me - I expect to make more on post-doc than the counseling center I prac'd in paid some licensed clinicians who were 5-10 years out. They paid 45k at my last position and struggled to find qualified people to fill slots, I can't imagine how hard it would be if they paid 25k.

40k certainly isn't great, but I don't think it is outrageously low for what is still a "training" position. Whether it is exploitative really depends on the nature of the position and whether they are offering you high-quality training or just looking for someone to crunch through the work for little money with minimal supervision. After 1-3 years on post-doc, folks seem to come out being able to command ~80k starting. Not exactly wealthy, but I think that's a reasonable progression.
 
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Anything less than 40k is insulting/abusive, and outside of maybe some university CCs a bad sign IMO. I'm in the mid 40s first year, slight increase for second year which is very livable for my area. Benefits are great. I dont work more than 50 hours per week. Ever. Usually 40-45.
 
I am not a therapy person (nor counseling center person), but the post-doc salaries I see posted on the various listservs for CC post-docs are ridiculous. I've seen many more $25k-$30k/yr postings than $30k+…and these aren't bottom of the barrel kind of places, but legit mostly public/large universities. I really question if those kind of jobs value what a psychologist brings to the table. Just my (somewhat ranting) 2 cents.
 
The highest paying are military post docs that pay in the 70s plus. VA post doc salaries are very fair (the highest I believe nationwide is 52k for a second year in Palo Alto/Bay Area CA. It is not uncommon for other sites to cap at NIH levels around 40K, though Mayo clinic and Cleveland clinic hover around 50k. The NIH levels extend to non psychology post docs, so we are not the only ones with this issue. Med residents are also not paid much higher.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I am not a therapy person (nor counseling center person), but the post-doc salaries I see posted on the various listservs for CC post-docs are ridiculous. I've seen many more $25k-$30k/yr postings than $30k+…and these aren't bottom of the barrel kind of places, but legit mostly public/large universities. I really question if those kind of jobs value what a psychologist brings to the table. Just my (somewhat ranting) 2 cents.
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Seriously. 30k post-doc salaries say to me that the facility doesn't advocate well for its department.

Interesting side note: Don't quote me on this, but I think APPIC may be moving to create a more comprehensive system for post-doc sites, called APPA. Was anyone else asked to complete a survey about this like I was? I couldn't find a formal statement about this, other than this:
http://www.liaison-intl.com/about/appic-partners-liaison-launch-appacas
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
I am not a therapy person (nor counseling center person), but the post-doc salaries I see posted on the various listservs for CC post-docs are ridiculous. I've seen many more $25k-$30k/yr postings than $30k+…and these aren't bottom of the barrel kind of places, but legit mostly public/large universities. I really question if those kind of jobs value what a psychologist brings to the table. Just my (somewhat ranting) 2 cents.
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I agree it's ridiculous, although I'd imagine many of those places are probably constrained by university budgets and would pay more if they could. Like Ollie said, it seems that even the faculty/staff are underpaid at many UCC's, so I can only imagine how hard it'd be for them to convince the university to set aside more money for post-docs. It's pretty suspect when a university won't do so despite the NIH post-doc pay rate being significantly higher, though.

Heck, I remember the clinic I worked in during grad school actually turned a small profit (in addition to funding itself, of course) for the university, and the administrators still considered cutting the entire thing back when the economy tanked and state education budgets were being plundered.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I agree it's ridiculous, although I'd imagine many of those places are probably constrained by university budgets and would pay more if they could. Like Ollie said, it seems that even the faculty/staff are underpaid at many UCC's, so I can only imagine how hard it'd be for them to convince the university to set aside more money for post-docs. It's pretty suspect when a university won't do so despite the NIH post-doc pay rate being significantly higher, though.

Heck, I remember the clinic I worked in during grad school actually turned a small profit (in addition to funding itself, of course) for the university, and the administrators still considered cutting the entire thing back when the economy tanked and state education budgets were being plundered.
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I would have loved to work at a university counseling center. That is one area where I have no experience and I believe that with my level of experience working with adolescents and young adults that I would have a lot to offer, but when I saw the salary ranges, I didn't go any further. I saw some try to justify the low wage by commenting on the extensive time off and short work weeks. I guess they get people who don't really want to work hard and make money. I taught for a few years at a community college and my experience was that not only do students have a high need for psychological services, but they are also very motivated. I would think that we would want the best psychologists providing services to these kids. After all, didn't the Tarasoff case, which from my recollection was also a great case to show what not to do in ethically sticky situations, occur at a university counseling center?
 
smalltownpsych said:
I would have loved to work at a university counseling center. That is one area where I have no experience and I believe that with my level of experience working with adolescents and young adults that I would have a lot to offer, but when I saw the salary ranges, I didn't go any further. I saw some try to justify the low wage by commenting on the extensive time off and short work weeks. I guess they get people who don't really want to work hard and make money. I taught for a few years at a community college and my experience was that not only do students have a high need for psychological services, but they are also very motivated. I would think that we would want the best psychologists providing services to these kids. After all, didn't the Tarasoff case, which from my recollection was also a great case to show what not to do in ethically sticky situations, occur at a university counseling center?
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So if I'm reading this right, you're saying psychologists working at counseling centers don't want to work hard or often and then go on to suggest they must also be poor clinicians with bad ethics?
 
Saw a non-satirical posting for a part time, UNPAID postdoc in Los Angeles today via a listserv. So theres that.
 
A couple years ago I wrote a TD who had posted for a post-doc at the Argosy SF campus that paid 18k/ year. No benefits, no paid time off/sick.

I informed him that he was soliciting for a doctoral-level health professional to work for less than minimum wage. In his reply, he politely corrected me that the minimun wage was actually X amount...one dollar lower than I had asserted in my email to him. I didn't bother to respond to that cause he either didn't get it, or was purposely playing dumb about the issue.
 
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ela said:
Saw a non-satirical posting for a part time, UNPAID postdoc in Los Angeles today via a listserv. So theres that.
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Saw that too, but thought it said full-time? Unbelievable.
 
WisNeuro said:
California is a hotbed for unpaid internship/postdoc positions. Just a byproduct of the diploma mills.
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There is your answer to if the field is over-saturated.

I considered a fellowship in CA, but I was worried about making it work at $45k/yr; I can't image not getting paid and living out there.
 
G Costanza said:
So if I'm reading this right, you're saying psychologists working at counseling centers don't want to work hard or often and then go on to suggest they must also be poor clinicians with bad ethics?
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As a current UCC postdoc, I can confirm that I spend most of my time blatantly ignoring the credible threats of violence my clients make against identifiable victims. I mean, I guess I *could* do something about it, but I'm just sooo lazy. ;)
 
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siamesekitten said:
Saw that too, but thought it said full-time? Unbelievable.
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Yep, it is full time. And I'm sorry, but unpaid post-docs are so much BS and shouldn't be allowed--people with doctorates shouldn't be applying for the "privilege" of working full time without pay.
 
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G Costanza said:
So if I'm reading this right, you're saying psychologists working at counseling centers don't want to work hard or often and then go on to suggest they must also be poor clinicians with bad ethics?
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Din't mean to disparage those who work in counseling centers. I think what I was trying to say is "you get what you pay for" and I think underpaying is a problem that could lead to trouble. I would imagine that many psychologists might work there because of many of the positives of working in that environment, which is one reason I was looking into it myself, and working less hours would be one of those positives. Believe me, I wouldn't mind working less hours, but wage depreciation is a serious problem in our field and it affects me personally so at times I might overstate the case.
 
Unfortunately people accept the low paying positions, so universities are not forced to pay more. This is why I am so against allowing unfunded internship, unfunded & woefully underfunded post-docs, etc. I understand paying $50k + benefits for a 0.5 FTE…but for a full-time position it is insulting to the profession. The only thing worse are the positions that advertise MA/MS/Psy.D./Ph.D./Ed.D. etc….and have no differentiation.
 
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