Post Doc

[463951]

So, I have a few questions about post-docs. I started my internship a couple of weeks ago. I always just assumed that I would do a formal post-doc. But now that a few states have done away with the post-doc requirement, I am not so sure, especially as one of these states is where I am from. However, I am pretty sure that I would run into problems if I moved back to this state after internship to begin working somewhere, but then later moved to another state that did require a post-doc, correct?

Also, does APA accreditation matter for post-docs like it does for internship?

What are the main differences between a formal post-doc, an informal post-doc, and not doing one at all? I have known people who have been hired on as a staff psychologist after completing their internship, and received supervision for an hour a week until they took the EPPP. Would this be considered an informal post-doc, or more just like an actual job, and supervision is only necessary because they are not licensed yet?

Is there a "match" day, like there is for internship?

I have a forensic background, and feel a post-doc would most likely be in my best interests, but there is quite a bit that I don't know about this whole process.

Thank you in advance!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[erg923]

So, I have a few questions about post-docs. I started my internship a couple of weeks ago. I always just assumed that I would do a formal post-doc. But now that a few states have done away with the post-doc requirement, I am not so sure, especially as one of these states is where I am from. However, I am pretty sure that I would run into problems if I moved back to this state after internship to begin working somewhere, but then later moved to another state that did require a post-doc, correct?

Could be, but not necessarily. There are reciprocity agreements and often if you have been licesned and practicing for 5 years (sometimes 7 or 10) then other states will not care that you didn't do a supervised post-doc or not

Also, does APA accreditation matter for post-docs like it does for internship?

No

What are the main differences between a formal post-doc, an informal post-doc, and not doing one at all? I have known people who have been hired on as a staff psychologist after completing their internship, and received supervision for an hour a week until they took the EPPP. Would this be considered an informal post-doc, or more just like an actual job, and supervision is only necessary because they are not licensed yet?

Formal ones have built in training elements, specified training requirements, and are usually somewhat specialized. The only way you would not be doing a "post-doc" is if you get fully licensed before you start said job. Otherwise, by definition, you are a post-doc. I took a visiting assistant professor position at a small college and saw clients in the counseling center during that year in addition to my teaching duties, then took EPPP at the end of the year.

Is there a "match" day, like there is for internship?

For neuropsych, yea. Not for others.

 

[463951]

Thank you erg! This is very helpful! Since, as you said, a person would be considered post-doc until they took the EPPP, would what you did be considered an "informal post-doc?" Did you have to get a certain number of hours? Or does your state happen to be one of the ones that has done away with the post-doc requirement?

 

[erg923]

Thank you erg! This is very helpful! Since, as you said, a person would be considered post-doc until they took the EPPP, would what you did be considered an "informal post-doc?" Did you have to get a certain number of hours? Or does your state happen to be one of the ones that has done away with the post-doc requirement?

Well, I was an assistant professor. But, clinically, I was a "post-doc." ie., thats how I signed my clinical notes.

My state did not require post-doctoral clinical hours.

 

[erg923]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "forensic" but if its anything more than disability work, I think a post-doc is going to be mandatory if you want any street cred on the job market/in the court room

 

[463951]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "forensic" but if its anything more than disability work, I think a post-doc is going to be mandatory if you want any street cred on the job market/in the court room

Agree. I am doing things like risk assessments, competency evals, criminal responsibility evals, etc.

 

[erg923]

Agree. I am doing things like risk assessments, competency evals, criminal responsibility evals, etc.

Sweet! That sounds absolutely terrible to me. haha. Good luck.

 

[463951]

Sweet! That sounds absolutely terrible to me. haha. Good luck.

thanks so much

 

[BuckeyeLove]

If your goal is to get boarded in forensic (ABFP), formal postdoc allows you to bypass the five year pre req period. This can potentially (depending on your geographic location) impact your potential for referral capacity in a big way (along with getting you onto the ABFP listserv). However, certain psycholegal issues are often not addressed in formal fellowships (I.e., mitigation, custody, workers comp) and you will have to make sure you acquire the requisite training through further mentorship).

 

[463951]

If your goal is to get boarded in forensic (ABFP), formal postdoc allows you to bypass the five year pre req period. This can potentially (depending on your geographic location) impact your potential for referral capacity in a big way (along with getting you onto the ABFP listserv). However, certain psycholegal issues are often not addressed in formal fellowships (I.e., mitigation, custody, workers comp) and you will have to make sure you acquire the requisite training through further mentorship).

I have heard that (formal post doc allows you to bypass the five year pre req period). I noticed your status says post doc, I am guessing yours is a formal one – when did you start applying for post docs?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would agree that particularly for certain specialities (e.g., forensics, rehab, neuro, and in some cases health), boarding can add an air of credibility to your credentials, and potentially open the door for additional referrals. It's of course not a universal, but I do know that early career folks with whom I've talked have said that once they were ABPP'd in neuro, they started receiving cold calls for forensic work, IMEs, records reviews, etc.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I started researching the fellowships about this time last year and applied to my sites in December. As others have stated, the process, at least for me, was a bit less intense than internship apps.

 

[cara susanna]

I'll be applying for post-docs. I was advised to wait until Sept to start looking, although I already have my list pretty much in mind. Everyone's told me that it's much, much lower stress and more of a "buyer's market" than internship apps.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

It was a weird position to be in compared to the internship craziness, which for me was equatable to chickens running around with their heads chopped off. I found that the most difficult and stressful aspect was navigating multiple offers. Some sites would give you reasonable time to accept; others were like "you've got 48 hours to decide....starting now!"

 

[463951]

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it. It is very good to know that post-doc is not nearly as stressful as applying for internship – I don't think I could deal with a "match day" ever again, the whole notion of an algorithm deciding where I do my internship, the prospect of not matching, etc.

One more question – how do interviews work? I don't know where I read this (probably on SDN), that there is a conference at some time during the year where people generally line up a bunch of post-doc interviews at once?

 

[erg923]

One more question – how do interviews work? I don't know where I read this (probably on SDN), that there is a conference at some time during the year where people generally line up a bunch of post-doc interviews at once?

Many npsych post doc interviews are held at the NAN conference.

 

[463951]

Many npsych post doc interviews are held at the NAN conference.

Maybe that is what I was thinking of. I don't remember what I read being specific to forensics.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Maybe that is what I was thinking of. I don't remember what I read being specific to forensics.

It actually usually ends up being INS in ~February that the neuropsych folks host most interviews, but yeah, that's probably the conference of which you were thinking.

 

[463951]

It actually usually ends up being INS in ~February that the neuropsych folks host most interviews, but yeah, that's probably the conference of which you were thinking.

That does sounds right, I was on here a lot between ranking day and match day, and I remember reading that people were talking about a conference and attending a bunch of interviews at once, and thinking that sounded so much better than what I had just gone through, lol.

 

[tpink]

Agree. I am doing things like risk assessments, competency evals, criminal responsibility evals, etc.

I'll be doing similar things in my internship when I start in 2 weeks. My 3rd and 4th year practicums were at a site with a formal forensic post-doc. All of my supervisors told me that if I wanted to make a career of doing comp evals, CR evals, and/or risk assessments I would need to do a formal post-doc. Hope this helps!

Edit: If your not interested in specializing in any of those things, and just want to work in a forensic setting, an informal post-doc may be an option. I've noticed that some of the informal positions aren't as focused. Also, there is a big difference in pay with informal post-docs typically paying more. Again, this is just what I've noticed in my brief search for positions.

 

[463951]

I'll be doing similar things in my internship when I start in 2 weeks. My 3rd and 4th year practicums were at a site with a formal forensic post-doc. All of my supervisors told me that if I wanted to make a career of doing comp evals, CR evals, and/or risk assessments I would need to do a formal post-doc. Hope this helps!

Edit: If your not interested in specializing in any of those things, and just want to work in a forensic setting, an informal post-doc may be an option. I've noticed that some of the informal positions aren't as focused. Also, there is a big difference in pay with informal post-docs typically paying more. Again, this is just what I've noticed in my brief search for positions.

It does help, thank you, and it is similar to what I have heard/seen as well. Do you know what you are going to do – formal or informal? Good luck on your internship!

 

[tpink]

It does help, thank you, and it is similar to what I have heard/seen as well. Do you know what you are going to do – formal or informal? Good luck on your internship!

Thanks! Good luck to you as well. While I just want to be completely done with all things internship/school/post-doc related, I know getting a formal post-doc will be the best for me career wise. I'll probably apply to a few informal post-docs, but the majority will be formal.

 

[heartdignan]

I, too, am starting my internship year and plan to do a post-doc. It definitely took awhile to wrap my head around what that meant. I think because "post doc" is a "formal" (i.e. named phenomenon) position, it seems like it has to be a structured, formal, hellaciously-difficult-to-obtain entity like internship. My understanding is that once you have diploma in hand and are working clinically, while receiving supervision, you're doing a post doc. Some folks are sick to death of being in student mode (read=unlicensed) and just want to rush to get that license. Personally, I feel like it's great to get another year in the field with supervision and more time to study for the EPPP. For me, whether or not a state cares about you being to say, "I did a post doc" - it's super logical to do it. This is especially true if you want to specialize in something or get experiences you didn't get while on prac/internship.

The people I've known who are doing a post doc this year fall into 2 groups: those who used the APPIC system (and allegedly liked it but I'm not convinced) and those who stalked local psychologists with private practices, sent in application materials, and interviewed. Everyone was successful that I know of. My plan right now is to utilize my internship faculty for recommendations and connections, since I am new to the state I'm in and would like to post doc in. I've also toyed with the idea of contacting some internship sites I interviewed but didn't match to and ask if they were taking post docs next year and if they'd consider me. I figure if they liked me enough to interview me, then maybe they'd listen again. A ton of interns seem to stay at their site to work/post doc, but I've also noticed a ton of them want to get back to their home states and don't plan on sticking around after the training year.

Let's please keep this thread going or start a post doc one for '15-'16 (I noticed we had one but no one was writing with it and all the post doc threads seem to center around APPACAS or whatever it's called). We were helpful to each other last year in applying to internships - now the ball keeps rolling!

 

[cara susanna]

So, I have a few questions about post-docs. I started my internship a couple of weeks ago. I always just assumed that I would do a formal post-doc. But now that a few states have done away with the post-doc requirement, I am not so sure, especially as one of these states is where I am from. However, I am pretty sure that I would run into problems if I moved back to this state after internship to begin working somewhere, but then later moved to another state that did require a post-doc, correct?

Also, does APA accreditation matter for post-docs like it does for internship?

What are the main differences between a formal post-doc, an informal post-doc, and not doing one at all? I have known people who have been hired on as a staff psychologist after completing their internship, and received supervision for an hour a week until they took the EPPP. Would this be considered an informal post-doc, or more just like an actual job, and supervision is only necessary because they are not licensed yet?

Is there a "match" day, like there is for internship?

I have a forensic background, and feel a post-doc would most likely be in my best interests, but there is quite a bit that I don't know about this whole process.

Thank you in advance!

APPIC is getting more and more centralized with regards to post doc applications. Although there is not a "match day," last year there was uniform notification day. This means that all of the sites were encouraged to give offers on the same day. Now, not all sites did this, and neuropsych and research post docs were exempt (however, some did stick to it anyway). There was also an online application system, and I imagine that they will continue with it this year.

I just wanted to tell everyone applying for post doc that I found the process, in the end, much better than internship applications. I had far fewer interviews, which was scary, but I ended up getting my top choice. In fact, everyone in my intern cohort got their first choice. Granted, I was pretty stressed during the process, but I'm not sure that I needed to be.

 

[cara susanna]

The people I've known who are doing a post doc this year fall into 2 groups: those who used the APPIC system (and allegedly liked it but I'm not convinced)

Oh man, they liked APPA CAS? Every applicant I know, including myself, hated it. It was so buggy and had a lot of ridiculous hoops to jump through. Not to mention that it cost money. Of course, I do think they learned from what happened with us--we were the guinea pigs, after all!

I should add that some of my sites used APPA CAS and some of them didn't.

I figure if they liked me enough to interview me, then maybe they'd listen again

FWIW, my post doc is at a site that rejected me for internship interviews.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. I think one issue I saw last year is that post docs are becoming more and more common, so it's starting to be an "informal" requirement. I'm not saying you can't get a job out of internship because I know a few people who did, but I do think if it comes down to someone coming from internship versus someone coming from a post doc the latter may win out. I know that my internship site didn't really hire interns because they had post docs they could choose from. Additionally, I learned from firsthand experience that internship is (for the most part) pretty generalist training. I definitely feel like I need some specialized training to get where I would like to be career-wise.

 

[463951]

I've also toyed with the idea of contacting some internship sites I interviewed but didn't match to and ask if they were taking post docs next year and if they'd consider me. I figure if they liked me enough to interview me, then maybe they'd listen again. A ton of interns seem to stay at their site to work/post doc, but I've also noticed a ton of them want to get back to their home states and don't plan on sticking around after the training year.

ABSOLUTELY do this. I am just beginning my post doc, a site which I interviewed at for internship. While interviewing back then, I made a mental note to myself that they had an awesome post doc and really great supervisors. When it came time to apply for post docs, I reached out to a few of the sites that I interviewed at for internship. Or some of these sites sent out emails on the APPIC list serv, and I applied at that time. I have also noticed the same trends: a) interns complete their post doc at the same site; or b) interns want to return to their home state as soon as possible upon completion of internship. But, there is a third group, people who are willing to relocate to yet another state in order to obtain the best training possible (not to say that if you are in the above groups you are not getting great training). Everybody is different, and what works for one person won't work for somebody else. As @cara susanna mentioned above, internship is, for the most part, generalist training. Post doc is when you have the opportunity to get specialized training.