Posted weeks ago about career advice and life changes

[LupaCupcake]

Some of you may remember me, I posted weeks ago about my life changes and looking at career paths. Quick recap, 30/f with a child, husband still lives with me due to us getting finances in order, but the plan is to divorce. I was looking at psychiatrist, but reconsidering my options and in general trying to find out what do I want.

At this point, I have taken all of the responses I was given here along with many conversations and experiences I had face to face and just thought about things. I took a week off of work and got sunburnt, but during that skin burning process I had a lot of time to think. I really examined what do I ENJOY, what makes me feel passion rather than just seems like a good paycheck. What parts of my current job do I like, what could I live without. (patient advocate)

I like the prestige and salary that goes along with psychiatrist, but I do not, DO NOT, want to work in medication management and see PTs for ten minutes. I understand that not all Psychiatrists work in that manner and many of them do involve themselves with therapy and other aspects of the PT's treatment plan, but in a general sense....if I go Psychiatrist...strong chance I will write a lot of prescriptions and see little of my PTs.

As vague as this will sound, I like Psychology. I just like it....I enjoy it, I like studying it, I like seeing it in work and the transformation I see in PTs at my hospital, I like speaking with PTS, I like interacting with them and building a rapport with them, guessing at a diagnosis in my head before I read their official diagnosis in the medical chart (I keep that to myself of course, it is just my fun little mental game)

I believe Psychologist is the route for me to go. I have looked at therapist/SW route and I understand they take some jobs away from Psychologists , but ultimately they are not the experts in this field . The therapist route feels like I am settling and giving in for something that takes less time to complete and is not as specialized.

On another note, many of you were very kind and I do apologize if my post weeks ago sounded emotional. I was in a very emotional state as I was not coming to terms with losing my marriage, but we are at a good place now and I am good. We are becoming great friends and working better as a team now so maybe the marriage just wasn't meant to be, but no reason we can't be a united team for our child.

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[wesleysmith]

I'm confused; was this just an update or did you have a question?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Sounds like an update to me. Glad that the discussion was helpful in your process. If you keep going down the path to becoming a psychologist, I am surer that you will have many more questions as you go!

 

[LupaCupcake]

update and I am sure I'll have questions as I go heh

 

[R. Matey]

I have looked at therapist/SW route and I understand they take some jobs away from Psychologists , but ultimately they are not the experts in this field . The therapist route feels like I am settling and giving in for something that takes less time to complete and is not as specialized.\.

If you are referring to mid level providers (LPCs, LCSWs, and LMFTs), I disagree with the notion that they are not experts in their field. Mental health is multi-disciplinary. Psychologists are not psychiatrists nor are they social workers. Each field plays a role. If you would like to be a psychologist, go for it, but don't discredit the people you will be sharing office space with. Many mid-levels are indeed seen as expert providers of psychotherapy and the first choice for referrals. I chose this field because I have an interest in doing psychological research, not because I'm the expert among dilettantes.

 

[edieb]

If you are referring to mid level providers (LPCs, LCSWs, and LMFTs), I disagree with the notion that they are not experts in their field. Mental health is multi-disciplinary. Psychologists are not psychiatrists nor are they social workers. Each field plays a role. If you would like to be a psychologist, go for it, but don't discredit the people you will be sharing office space with. Many mid-levels are indeed seen as expert providers of psychotherapy and the first choice for referrals. I chose this field because I have an interest in doing psychological research, not because I'm the expert among dilettantes.

Although it is not true in every case, there is +no way+ a person with a master's level degree is equal to someone with a PhD/PsyD in clinical or counseling psychology. The depth, breadth and amount of training far exceeds that obtained in professions like social work and counseling.

If I were to follow your logic, then I could say that my post-doctoral master's in psychopharmacology makes me equal to an M.D. in regards psychotropic medication

 

[R. Matey]

Although it is not true in every case, there is +no way+ a person with a master's level degree is equal to someone with a PhD/PsyD in clinical or counseling psychology. The depth, breadth and amount of training far exceeds that obtained in professions like social work and counseling.

If I were to follow your logic, then I could say that my post-doctoral master's in psychopharmacology makes me equal to an M.D. in regards psychotropic medication

I didn't say they were equal, I actually said they were not the same. Of course, psychologists receive more training than an someone with a master's. But notice the difference: PhD and PsyD. Clinical and counseling. Social work, marriage and family therapy and counseling. All are specific disciplines based in different training philosophies within mental health which play a disparate (though admittedly overlapping) role. My only point is to dispel the assumption that mid-level providers are not expert providers of psychotherapy. I believe I've read studies where mid-levels providers are included in RCTs as expert providers of psychotherapy alongside PsyD/PhDs (specifically, I'm thinking of a supervision study I recently read). Everyone receives training in psychotherapy, and it follows, they have the chance to develop into expert providers should they choose.

To use your analogy, I'm assuming you are granted a prescription pad with your training. You share that privilege with Psychiatric NPs, PAs and MDs. Does that make you equal? It depends on your definition. The state says yes because they gave you a pad. Is your training equal to an MD? No. Do you have the chance to develop into an excellent prescriber? Absolutely

 

[LupaCupcake]

Maybe I should add some clarification to my post. I am not saying that a LPC, LCSW is a lower position and they are not as good as a psychologist and that psychologists are better than them...no no no....not my intention. I work with therapists a lot at my current job, we don't employ psychologists, just psychiatrists for medication management and the therapists take it from that point. I absolutely see their value and especially LCSC, that is a very well rounded route to go with multiple options in terms of career paths. When I think of Psychologist I think of going even more in depth, more extensive training and knowledge and "picking something apart" , examining, observing and testing until one gets to the intricate details.

 

[erg923]

Maybe I should add some clarification to my post. I am not saying that a LPC, LCSW is a lower position and they are not as good as a psychologist and that psychologists are better than them...no no no....not my intention. I work with therapists a lot at my current job, we don't employ psychologists, just psychiatrists for medication management and the therapists take it from that point. I absolutely see their value and especially LCSC, that is a very well rounded route to go with multiple options in terms of career paths. When I think of Psychologist I think of going even more in depth, more extensive training and knowledge and "picking something apart" , examining, observing and testing until one gets to the intricate details.

Eh, yea, sometimes. But fact is, time for that is a luxury in the modern healthcare system. I think the strength of the practicing psychologist lies in the training in empirically based intevention and assessment practices based on solid science, statistics, and explantory models based on research in experimental psychopathology. The scientific mindset, comined with good training in service delivery and supervsion and teaching of that service delivery is our stegth...and it where we are headed.

 

[Mad Jack]

There are a lot of psychiatry residencies with strong psychotherapy components. The advantage to the psychiatry route is that you have a full spectrum of tools available. Psychologists are generally better trained at psychotherapy right out of the gate, but in most states lack prescriptive authority, so you've got a stronger skill set on the one hand but are lacking a few tools on the other. The psychiatry road is unarguably much more difficult for a single mother, but has a greater payout in the end, as well as greater job security. Choose wisely.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Maybe I should add some clarification to my post. I am not saying that a LPC, LCSW is a lower position and they are not as good as a psychologist and that psychologists are better than them...no no no....not my intention. I work with therapists a lot at my current job, we don't employ psychologists, just psychiatrists for medication management and the therapists take it from that point. I absolutely see their value and especially LCSC, that is a very well rounded route to go with multiple options in terms of career paths. When I think of Psychologist I think of going even more in depth, more extensive training and knowledge and "picking something apart" , examining, observing and testing until one gets to the intricate details.

I don't really think that you need to defend what you said. Why do we have to apologize for saying that we are experts in our field? That makes no sense whatsoever. You didn't say that a psychologist is an expert at social work!

 

[wesleysmith]

I don't really think that you need to defend what you said. Why do we have to apologize for saying that we are experts in our field? That makes no sense whatsoever. You didn't say that a psychologist is an expert at social work!

haha, that was one of my first thoughts after reading that part of the post, "Yes, I do believe psychologists are the experts in the field of psychology."

 

[R. Matey]

I don't really think that you need to defend what you said. Why do we have to apologize for saying that we are experts in our field? That makes no sense whatsoever. You didn't say that a psychologist is an expert at social work!

No, but she did say "this field," which I read as "mental health" given the juxtaposition of therapist and psychologist in the same sentence (i.e.: what other field are psychologists and therapists in?). If this wasn't your intention LupaCupcake, then I misunderstood you. However, I'm neither looking for a defense nor am I trying to be the grammar police. I just think its important to recognize each field plays a sanctioned and legitimate role where expertise can be developed. That's it.

There, dead horse sufficiently beaten.

 

[R. Matey]

err...

I meant it's, not its. I guess I need to talk to the grammar police.

 

[LupaCupcake]

@Mad Jack.... stop making me doubt hehe.

I recognize that the psychiatry route has some more tools and greater payout in terms of finances, but I just don't know. How realistic is all of that to a single mother that is 30 and unable to really establish a good savings to help with those finances.

This is what I know for sure....I love behavioral health and I want to stay in this field. I like having PT interaction and some to myself in order to unwind. My current office is at the very end of a hallway across from an exit door with little to no traffic in this area. I go to all of the PTs on the units and utilize assessment rooms or their bedrooms here, they don't come to me. I very much like this element of privacy mixed with my daily interactions. I have a boss that is considered very intimidating and she can be lol, but she gives me a lot of freedom and essentially could care less what I do as long as I get my job done to regulation and the time clock shows 40 hours at the end of the week. I like that freedom, I get to take an extra long break today because I cut short a couple of my breaks earlier this week since I have errands to run today. I like being able to do that when it is appropriate so I do have some freedom. When my kid has special events going on during the day, I can leave and make up that time with extra hours or just use PTO...again I like this flexibility, its very nice as a parent. Ii also like having good health insurance and I am lucky with my company that I actually have good benefits at a very low monthly rate. That is important, I was uninsured for awhile after we got out of the military and it made me very uneasy.

I can't nail down a specific demographic of patients that I prefer to work with. I love working with aggressive PTS, give me the person that just attacked a staff member and has a criminal record....I have always done well with them. I love interacting with a schizophrenic PT or the manic PT that keeps me for a hour long conversation lol. I like pulling aside the depressed teenager with bandages up their arm, talking to the drug addict that is in the midst of detox, the guy with PTSD and TBI etc etc. I have a bias towards veterans. I have to admit that. Due to being a vet, whenever I see Tricare listed as insurance or hear they are a vet...I got a soft spot for my fellow brothers and sisters that took up arms.

Is financial pay off a factor? I am not going to be a liar and say it has nothing to do with my decisions, but I don't need to make 2-300k a year. I want to be able to comfortably provide for my child, pay my bills and other basics, but nothing overly elaborate. I am a rather frugal person so even if I made 200k a year, I would probably invest most of it. I do not like debt, I paid off my car ASAP in order to get rid of that debt and bump my credit. I currently have zero debt from school and have one year left of GI BILL sexiness to help me. I look at my minimum as 60k a year. If I had to be stuck at 60k a year I could live with that although of course I aim for much more.

I do feel a lot of pressure with my life changing to pick a route that is realistic and will not take away from my child. My divorce situation is ...odd. We are living together and we are actually doing very well as a team now, better than ever. I can sense from what he says and his body language that he doesn't want to move out any time soon and will extend his stay with me as long as possible. So I might be able to have a lot of help from him if I keep him in my home for a long time , but I can't say that with 100% certainty so I need to think about what is realistic and positive for a single parenting situation. In NC they will not grant a divorce until the couple has lived separately for a year so I am technically still married and even after he moves out I will be legally married for another year. I mention that because single moms often get some assistance, but I won't qualify as legally divorced for awhile.

Ultimately I want to make a decision I will not regret and what is best for my family.

 

[psych844]

I don't really understand how people always complain about money. Most of us as students are use to living off $1100-1300/month, I dont see why 90/100k a year should be so problematic. It is possible to live really well off that. The issue for most people is that as their salary goes up, they change their life drastically and add a ton of stuff that is often unnecessary.

 

[Sanman]

I don't really understand how people always complain about money. Most of us as students are use to living off $1100-1300/month, I dont see why 90/100k a year should be so problematic. It is possible to live really well off that. The issue for most people is that as their salary goes up, they change their life drastically and add a ton of stuff that is often unnecessary.

Your costs go up as well as your salary. It is not just about expectations. Professional memberships, CEs, office overhead, malpractice insurance all cost money. Those pesky loans come due as well and taxes go up also. I also plan to buy a house and raise a family. Very different lifestyle from a single student in a cheap 1 bedroom apt, so you are right about that.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It takes 6-8yrs to get licensed and earning, with $90-$100k being on the high end of earnings. The investment of time, lost income, etc. makes it a bad financial decision in most cases.

 

[LupaCupcake]

$1100 a month? *giggle* Hunny, I have a child to raise. $1100 does not cut it with a family.... her after school care alone costs me $220 a month ...you want to talk about grocery budget for a high energy growing child? You don't want to know my rent for living in a family neighborhood and yes it is important that I keep my child in a good neighborhood so she attends high rated schools and is safe..... I already went over your $1100-1300 a month with what I listed and I didn't even start to mention utilities, insurance, school events, incidentals etc....

 

[Ollie123]

I think after graduation, most people are at a place in their life where they are looking to make a solid income. As T4C indicated, psychology certainly isn't the best ROI in that regard.

That said, I agree with the general point that we have a select few posters who seemed to go into psychology with fairly outrageous salary expectations. There are really only a handful of careers that guarantee a six figure income and anyone who went into psychology thinking it was one of them has no one to blame but themselves. There is nothing wrong with advocating for better pay, but I do get somewhat annoyed when people act like the sky is falling because they "only" earn 80k when its almost double the median national household income. Positions that pay like that are really only competitive because we are graduating such an epic number of people from questionable schools whose career prospects are pretty much limited to those where all they can do is therapy. I've met very few people coming out of clinical science programs taking positions for less than 70k (forgoing post-doc obviously) and that is generally by choice or due to extreme geographical restriction.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't really understand how people always complain about money. Most of us as students are use to living off $1100-1300/month, I dont see why 90/100k a year should be so problematic. It is possible to live really well off that. The issue for most people is that as their salary goes up, they change their life drastically and add a ton of stuff that is often unnecessary.

This is just so wrong on so many levels, I just don't know what to say. I guess anyone who works their tail off to work in a high pressure field where we make life or death decisions should be happy with whatever we get because it is more than the median wage. No wonder we have wage depreciation.

 

[erg923]

I don't really understand how people always complain about money. Most of us as students are use to living off $1100-1300/month, I dont see why 90/100k a year should be so problematic. It is possible to live really well off that. The issue for most people is that as their salary goes up, they change their life drastically and add a ton of stuff that is often unnecessary.

This smacks of someone with limited life experience, both professionally and personally.

I would also politely suggest that I changed my lifestyle for the betterment and benefit of others. Do I NEED to have all these things? Of course not. All a person NEEDS is what Maslow suggests. But, I work hard so that my children and my spouse are given every opportunity maximize their potentials. These may include private school, a safe vehicle, a large tomatoe garden. Psych84, get back to me when you have others to think of besides yourself, mmmk?

 

[psych84]

This smacks of someone with limited life experience, both professionally and personally.

I would also politely suggest that I changed my lifestyle for the betterment and benefit of others. Do I NEED to have all these things? Of course not. All a person NEEDS is what Maslow suggests. But, I work hard so that my children and my spouse are given every opportunity maximize their potentials. These may include private school, a safe vehicle, a large tomatoe garden. Psych84, get back to me when you have others to think of besides yourself, mmmk?

I have tons of life experience, actually. We are probably near the same age, and I can almost gurantee I've been through more. (but its not a competition)

My point is, if you can't afford to have children, you don't have them. If you can't afford to send to private school. you don't. If you can't afford to live in the best neighbourhood, you don't. If you can't afford a car, you simply shouldn't have one.

Your children don't NEED any of this. They are lucky enough to have a father who cares, and who has done the hard work to get an education so he can make a pretty good living, but I grew up with little and I turned out pretty good. (and so did a lot of other kids)

I'm sure if I looked at the way that you live, you could change 5 things that could save a ton of money, and you/your family wouldn't be all that inconvenienced.

 

[erg923]

I'm sure if I looked at the way that you live, you could change 5 things that could save a ton of money, and you/your family wouldn't be all that inconvenienced.

Yes, I drink very expensive Scotch. You know why? Cause I can.

I CAN afford these things. And you know why? Because I fight for them by advocating the value of my services. Business and marketing 101. Nothing wrong or "unecessary" about this. In fact, its very necessary. It serves for the betterment of my family and ultimately, the profession. Its a win-win. Not sure why someone would object to that?

 

[psych84]

Yes, I drink very expensive Scotch. You know why? Cause I can.

I CAN afford these things. And you know why? Because I fight for them by advocating the value of my services. Business and marketing 101. Nothing wrong or "unecessary" about this. In fact, its very necessary. It serves for the betterment of my family and ultimately, the profession. Its a win-win. Not sure why someone would object to that?

I'm not sure what you are arguing anymore. If you can afford it, why wouldn't you buy it? No issue there.
I'm just saying that in a general sense, if you are making 90/100k a year, you shouldn't be complaining about not having enough.

 

[erg923]

I'm not sure what you are arguing anymore. If you can afford it, why wouldn't you buy it? No issue there.
I'm just saying that in a general sense, if you are making 90/100k a year, you shouldn't be complaining about not having enough.

But, I dont hear anyone saying that. At least not if we define "enough" as simply covering the bills.

Unless you take a religious vow of poverty, most people will want to pull at little bit more than "enough" from life, wouldn't you say? What I hear people saying is that they want more so that they can provide the best things in life to those they care about (dont all parents want their children to be better off than they were?) and are willing to fight to do this.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Fellas, let's get back to the point. In grad school, psych84 is projecting that he can live off of $1K per month, so presumably after grad school, he may tuck away surplus cash (past $1K per month expenses) for a healthy savings (not likely, but smthg to this effect). LupaCupcake stated she cannot survive off of $1K even during prospective graduate school training (so LupaCupcake will have to figure that one out...I had to take out loan $ b/c of the loss of my salary; even though I received funding for tuition, my stipend was not enough & I live in an expensive city despite my spouse being a workaholic & also drinking expensive Scotch). I could probably figure out how to support myself & my kids on $1K/month (if my spouse was not in the picture & I had gov't assistance), but would I want to? Hell No! Especially with that PhD behind my name...that would be a disgrace to my trade....all that schooling for nothing. I'm looking towards those glass ceilings and hopefully, ones I can break.

I can relate to what erg933 is saying. I pursued my doctorate for not only a better base pay but also b/c of the SES that comes with the degree and lifestyle. I live well, and go on extravagant vacations, but I desire the intellectual community as well that is a by-product of this work. And for all us to advocate for more pay (b/c we are worth it) is not only given, but a requirement for our field, especially since specialized mental health services can be diluted by bureaucracies. We all want to make bank in today's society and I will be a sage on a mountain (and release all my worldly possession) when i'm in my 90s, certainly not now. Someone has to pay for that expensive Scotch...especially if it's a gift.

 

[sockit]

in no particular order, here are my thoughts fwiw:

- do you have arrangements for childcare that don't centre on your husband, like family, in the area? it's great that you're getting along now, but that could change. also he might find himself wanting or having to move. a plan for childcare that doesn't have him in the middle of it, living with you, would be what i'd be thinking about. maybe there's something available at the university.

- i would really think about the bottom line return on investment you'd be getting for your education. med school is long and hard, but your lifetime earnings would be amazeballs. training for social work or counselling would be shorter, and you'd be earning sooner; you could top up with CPD and additional certifications for interest. nurse practitioner with psych specialization could get you as much $$ as psychology, probably, and earning sooner then med school. you could also top up your knowledge as you go. also with NP, you'd be able to prescribe (i think) and might have more flexibility in terms of where you can work. (i think there's more opportunity to do therapy with NP than with psychiatry, as well.) i kind of vote for that, if you're taking a poll.

- would also think about the nature of the training and the environments that suit you best. from what i can understand, med school involves lots of recall/memory, then experiential work. requires tons of stamina. good for people who are good at packing information into their heads and who test well. nursing, similar, more emphasis on experiential stuff earlier on. psychology, less of that, more of the critiquing & planning & designing research.

good luck

 

[LupaCupcake]

@erg923...Seriously, I want a tomato garden for my kid. She keeps asking me if we can grow a garden of fresh veggies, but I do not have a green thumb. If it grows in an aquarium it will thrive and all of my aquariums prove that, but if it grows outside of an aquarium I will probably kill it lol. anyways....

I like to think I am frugile, but I do not have a vow to poverty. I happen to really like dry white wine, I don't drink very often, but after living in Germany for years I have developed a very specific taste for wine. Despite my preference, I always buy the cheap bottle or what is on sale even if I won't love it. I needed new work shoes last week due to situation at work, I went on my lunch break to payless and got $24 heels. I love high heels so trust me when I say $24 is very very cheap for heels and that is why they hurt lol. Yet when my kid needs new shoes, I buy her name brand shoes that will last and are super comfortable. When her father had an expense he wanted for a hobby, I didnt hesitate to drop $. The point I am trying to make is that it is not all about wanting $ for ourselves, many of us here want $ to better the lifestyle of our family. I want my daughter to be involved, to explore, to have good education and be able to embrace life without wondering if Mom can pay for it. I don't want her worrying about paying for college like I do and struggling so hard to make ends meet. I live in the NC heat yet I rarely ever use my AC in the car simply to save on the gas budget and plenty of other penny pinching activities. Its not fun and I want to ensure she is above me and achieves more than me eventually. I want to provide that for her so she can be one of those kids in college that has Mommy paying her way and she focuses 100% on her education and goals. anyways....enough of that lol.

For the time being I have to maintain my job, pay my bills and start school shopping. So I figured it would not hurt me to enroll for college next term on a part time basis using my GI Bill....granted I will have to pay some tuition because I won't get 100% paid from gi bill on a part time basis and I will have to buy books, but I have some money coming in next month so I am going to use that money to pay for a term of college. It won't hurt me to keep knocking out med school prereqs while I figure my path out so I might as well.

As for the comment about babysitting. Other than him, my only other sitter is Grandma which is why it really behooves me to stay in this area if I can. Grandmas make the best babysitters ^^ No I can't take her with me if we move nor would I lol. We can't live together, she is controlling and she is career dedicated anyways. She is now a regional executive director and an administrator so if I don't stay in this area, I lose all babysitter options I currently have. I will figure it all out, I always do.

 

[erg923]

You will have to move at tail end of grad school for internship...then likley again for post-doc. Then likley again for a job. Geogrpahic restriction and this field do not get along.

 

[submarine1991]

Why wont you get 100% of your G.I. Bill for going part time? Doesn't that only apply to the housing allowance and not tuition?

 

[LupaCupcake]

I don't get 100% as it is, my discharge was honorable but it was due to something medical going on with me which forced me to leave a few months earlier than my contract. Due to that, I only get 70% tuition paid although that is still a huge chunk. It used to be 80% , but then they cut me down even lower around 2 years ago when VA was starting to make cuts to everything. I have never attended less than fulltime, but I was under the impression that my percentage would lower if I was going part time. I could be wrong because I have never went part time in the past. I was always at fulltime and actually did my 4 years in 3 because during undergrad I didn't have to work, I actually made money from my undergrad, but that is a different story for a different forum lol.

@ erg. I don't plan to always be this geographically restricted, just for the time being because I couldn't afford to move right now. That should be different for me after a few years.