Practice Broker Checking in to Help Answer Any Questions

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Greg_Jones

Dental Practice Acquisition Expert
7+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
67
Reaction score
40
Howdy boys and girls,

I found this website via google and thought it would be great if I signed up and could help answer any questions dentists may have in terms of associate ships / buying a practice / ect. I work with Doctor's Choice and we work exclusively in Florida. We are Florida's largest dental practice broker always have over 100+ dental practices for sale! My dad (Kenny) and I have been doing this for 25 years. I am here to help you.

Ask any questions you may have! I will create a FAQ at the top of this thread. My answers are my opinion from my knowledge. You may agree or disagree - does not matter to me.

Cheers

PS> check out our word press. I have written some articles that may give you some good insight. I am not a great writer so don't beat me up too much!

https://doctorschoicecompanies.wordpress.com/

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Awesome, thanks for offering this up! Looking forward to reading responses... One question I'll throw out here, if you're willing to answer - what salary ranges have you been seeing for new GD graduates who go into associateships? Does there seem to be any hiring preference or significant salary difference for those who've chosen to pursue post graduate training (AEGD, GPR)?
 
A new doc working as an associate, I would say $100,000 to $170,000 is a good average for a GP. However, I have seen other cases where it goes below that number a tad, and also $200,000+. You should not make less than $80,000 first year IMO. Lots of variables here however...I have not seen any increase in pay due to a GPR.

With that said, IF it was me I would work two or three jobs before buying a practice. Maybe work for an corporation first, then find a solo practitioner and work with them. Why? You will learn lots of good habits / knacks that made that dentist / company successful. See how the business is run! Yes, you need to do decent dentistry but focus on becoming business savy. See how they are marketing, ect. Patients do not know how good of quality the dentistry is that they are getting. Furthermore, work at a MINIMUM one year before buying a practice. I suggest two...Of course there are situations where it makes sense if the selling doc wants to stay on and teach you, or something like this.

I would go on dental town and find the CE credit by Jason Wood that goes over associate ships and what you should / should not do. Well worth the $15 bucks or whatever it is. (go to CE - practice transitions - "associates/ partnerships / acquisitions oh my!") Take notes!

In terms of a GPR giving you a better chance at getting hired, yes and no. Some dentists that did GPRs will say not worth it and some will say they are very happy they did them. You are going to make 30ish a year which is BS and nothing, but the positive here is that you will get lots of experience. If it was me, I would go work for a corporation right out of school and make $100K first year. These are usually set up so that you work under a "lead" dentist. They are there to help you.So I think GPRs are great but you guys (and gals =p) have 250K+ in loans to pay back.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Members don't see this ad :)
What trends have you noticed as far as orthodontist practices and salaries of recently graduated residents?
 
Would you be able to shed some insight on what the population to dentist ratio is ideal? Specifically, what it is ideal for a specialist like an oral surgeon?
 
Before I go any further, I want to add that we are in only Florida and some of the trends / numbers I give could be "Florida specific".

In terms of ortho, you guys should / could be doubling what a GP makes as an associate. See post above.

Ortho numbers have gone down the past few years. I think that the economy went to hell and people who were not doing as well said to them selves that bobby can wait another year or two to get braces. The economy is coming back now and I hear less and less complaining :nod:. I hear from orthodontists that they are taking $500 as a down payment / initial start fee or whatever you want to call it. This helps those parents whose kids need braces but can't pay 4K up front. This seems to be a growing trend and becoming more common in today's market.

Comment above about ortho making double of a GP got you down? Fear not, you can do invisalign! Many GPs have started to learn how to do this. People seem to forget that general dentists are allowed to do ortho / oral surgery / perio / implants / ect. Just make sure you know what you are doing and are well trained. :highfive:
 
Last edited:
Would you be able to shed some insight on what the population to dentist ratio is ideal? Specifically, what it is ideal for a specialist like an oral surgeon?

figured out how to quote above questions....

I would say bottom line IMO should be 1200 : 1 for a GP

For a OMFS, not sure honestly. I'll ask my pops and get back to you.

In the meantime, check out this link. Aftco allows you to figure out the dentist to person population in your area. How accurate it is I am not sure...

http://www.aftco.net/Dental-Transitions-Resources/Dentistics.aspx
 
Last edited:
figured out how to quote above questions....

I would say bottom line IMO should be 1200 : 1 for a GP

For a OMFS, not sure honestly. I'll ask my pops and get back to you.

In the meantime, check out this link. Aftco allows you to figure out the dentist to person population in your area. How accurate it is I am not sure...

http://www.aftco.net/Dental-Transitions-Resources/Dentistics.aspx

Thanks! I would definitely appreciate it if you could figure this information out. I am hoping to eventually practice out in my town, but wanted to see if the population would be enough to support an OMFS.
 
What about endo? How much are they making and how are they doing? Do you see endo income decreasing due to implants and more GPs doing endo b/c of better tech?

Thanks.
 
What about endo? How much are they making and how are they doing? Do you see endo income decreasing due to implants and more GPs doing endo b/c of better tech?

Thanks.

Absolutely. Endo and Perio are dying due to GPs learning to do these procedures.

I don't mean to discourage anyone but personally I would not specialize in those fields. I would be a GP and learn to do these procedures. On a high note, if you are already are a perio / endo here is what I would do as i think this strategy is going to get bigger and bigger. I see "traveling" Perio / OS / Endo going from office to office. Therefore, you have a GP that is referring out lots of OS / Perio / Endo as they are more of a bread and butter practice and don't want to do it or can't do it. You will come into his office once a week or bi-weekly and work on his patients for the day. You then split the profit. i've seen it 50 / 50 - 70 / 30- ect. The GP is happy as he is now receiving income from something he was not before. You are happy because you are making the same amount of money without the overhead and head aches. You do not have to pay rent / staff / possibly lab / supplies depending on what you work out. The key here is that you don't have the headaches of managing a dental practice. You get to walk into an office and just do your thing and work. I hear everyday from dentists : "if i could just do dentistry". This model can work for any specialty.
 
Thank you so much Greg Jones. This thread is a really good resource!

I was curious on the contracts involved in the transition of a dental practice. Example the letter of intent & purchase agreement. What are the steps involved in a typical dental practice transition. What can I expect?

Thank you again for taking your time to answer our questions.
 
Thank you so much Greg Jones. This thread is a really good resource!

I was curious on the contracts involved in the transition of a dental practice. Example the letter of intent & purchase agreement. What are the steps involved in a typical dental practice transition. What can I expect?

Thank you again for taking your time to answer our questions.

Sorry to get back to this so late. Busy week.

I can write a novel for a response to this as every situation is unique and different. First off, I would absolutely get an attorney involved that has done closings for dental practices. They are not charging you any more money for being dental specific and they can save you a lot of headaches and time. There are various that we recommend, but regardless just get someone that knows what they're doing involved. We are talking about A LOT of money.

What are the steps of a typical dental practice transition? Simplified version

1. get pre qualified with a lender (bank)! They are many dental specific lenders out there - to name a few: Bank of America, PNC, Wells Fargo, East West, ECT
-Sellers will love to hear that you are on top of your game and are already pre qualified.

2. find practice you like - submit LOI to find reasonable terms to both parties

3. After agreeing upon price and terms, do some research on the practice to make sure everything they are telling you in legitimate. This is called Due Diligence - which is simply an inspection period.
-be sure to pull some charts and look over them. (sign hippa) / google them / look at schedules for the next few months / Look at tax returns last 3 years / look at profit and loss last 3 years / find out their fee schedule / find out their procedural analysis which tells you how many crowns they did, ect.

4. If everything checks out, consult an attorney and have them write it up.

5. AFTER contracts have been signed you can then have the seller doc introduce you to his staff. You have him put together a staff meeting and he can break the news and they can all meet you. The key here is that you NEED them. Assure them that they will all still have the same pay, the same hours, the same vacation time, ect ect. Tell them that you need them!

6. close on the practice

7. After closing you begin to work there and like I said every situation is different but the selling doc should hang around for a month or bit less. He can introduce you to the patients and help answer any questions you may have. The selling doc should write a letter to all his patients telling them that he is leaving and that Dr. Jones will be taking care of you, blah blah blah. This is one of the most important parts! Also, do not change a thing for minimum one year! You may change a few small things, but generally don't change anything! The staff and patients are used to that system. You may want to do things differently but DO NOT.

In conclusion, GUYS please get professionals involved when buying / selling a practice. There is a lot of money and risk involved. For buyers, most brokers do not charge you a penny! It is free to have them help you get a practice of your dreams (some do charge though so be careful!). If you do find a for sale by owner, I would recommend at least having a neutral broker appraise the practice so that you are paying fair market value. I am leaving globs of details out but this is my quick run down. If anyone is currently buying a practice and you want my opinion, message me and I would love to help if I can. When buying or selling you are going to run into some headaches and problems. Stay calm and get it done = )
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Slow day at work. Who has questions!?
 
Slow day at work. Who has questions!?
Thanks Greg Jones,

I was wondering how does the practice valuation process work? I know that valuating is more of an art than science, but do banks/lenders have actuaries that know how to valuate a seller's practice? Is there a general rule like 70% gross? How do I know what a "fair price" is? Should I hire a CPA to do independent valuations of the practices I'm interested in?

Thank you so much.
 
Thanks Greg Jones,

I was wondering how does the practice valuation process work? I know that valuating is more of an art than science, but do banks/lenders have actuaries that know how to valuate a seller's practice? Is there a general rule like 70% gross? How do I know what a "fair price" is? Should I hire a CPA to do independent valuations of the practices I'm interested in?

Thank you so much.

The basics on practice evaluation are as follows:

A practice is worth more or less to 3 main factors

1) Cash Flow - This is the most important factor. If a practice has lower than average overhead and a doctor is bringing in more money than average, that makes his practice worth more.

2) Location - Is the location phenomenal? Whether it be a retail plaza with tons of exposure and traffic OR is the location of the city rare to have practice opportunities.

3) Equipment / Technology - If a practice has equipment that is 20+ years old, that hurts you. BUT if it has 2 year old ADEC chairs and digital xray. This will increase the value. Expecially if it has high end items like a CEREC or Digital PAN

I would hire a practice broker to do an evaluation. We do it all day everyday for a living. We charge ~$1200 for an appraisal. You should push the seller to get this done, or worst case split it 50-50.

"general rule" and number that everyone tosses around is 65% of collections. However there are lots of variables and just a few named above. I stress again, just get a practice broker involved to determine fair market for the both of you. We are talking about A LOT of money. Most practice brokers are what we call transaction brokers - this means that we represent both he buyer and seller and try and make a fair deal for both parties. On top of that, BUYERs do not get charged a penny.

Hope this helps and answers your question! It's almost Friday y'all!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Given the vastly increased supply of women in the workforce, are practice owners finding it easier to hire associates? Also what kind of financial arrangement do you see set up between GP practice owners and in-house specialists hired by the GP?

Thanks!
 
Hi Greg,
Thanks so much for offering your expertise.
We are making an offer on a practice and the practice broker asked us to write up some contingencies. What are some of the important ones?
Some of the things we are putting are: contingent on due diligence; Accounts receivable for all hygiene and associates; for the owner to be available to stay on as an associate for up to 3 mo (he is retiring); all equipment & instruments stays in the office.
Some of other things i was thinking of putting is renewal of contracts of current associates, employees. I also heard that some sellers set up an account and out lets say $30k in it, which stays there for 6 mo in case a pt decides to sue, wants their money back for the work done by the owner or an associate that left, other issues that might arise.. How common is that and what wording do we use to put that into our offer?
Thanks so much!
 
Hi Greg,
Thanks so much for offering your expertise.
We are making an offer on a practice and the practice broker asked us to write up some contingencies. What are some of the important ones?
Some of the things we are putting are: contingent on due diligence; Accounts receivable for all hygiene and associates; for the owner to be available to stay on as an associate for up to 3 mo (he is retiring); all equipment & instruments stays in the office.
Some of other things i was thinking of putting is renewal of contracts of current associates, employees. I also heard that some sellers set up an account and out lets say $30k in it, which stays there for 6 mo in case a pt decides to sue, wants their money back for the work done by the owner or an associate that left, other issues that might arise.. How common is that and what wording do we use to put that into our offer?
Thanks so much!


Sorry to be getting back to you so late. IF anyone else has a question like this where time is of the essence feel free to email me ([email protected]). If it is not urgent don't email me please. PM me on here = )

Do the employees including associates have contracts? Make sure the associates have non-competes. In regards to the "redo account" that is only really when the selling doctor is NOT able to do these redos if a patient is to come back and complain. Is the seller willing to take care of any redos if there are any?

We generally do not recommend the seller to stay in the office that long. Why? Well patients will come in and want to see him of course. When you tell them that they will be seeing you now instead but he is in the office, the patients are thinking: am i not good enough to see Dr. Seller anymore? It can cause a big stink. We ask the sellers to stay on for 2 weeks to 1 month at no charge to you. He / she is there to help answer any questions about the flow of the office, the systems in place, and any other questions. NOT to do dentistry. During those few weeks, he can introduce you to the patients you see in that time and tell them that he is retiring and that you will take care of them now, blah blah blah.

When you say you are making an offer, I am guessing through a letter of intent (LOI)? Keep in mind that an LOI is a NON binding contract. It is really a meeting of minds and agreeing upon the general terms. No need to get too fancy with wording. I am not an attorney so i can not legally tell you how to word it, ect. I would just make your offer contingent upon due diligence and financing.

Last word of advice - spend the money to have an attorney who has done dental closings before. It will save you a lot of time and headaches. Should be in the ballpark of $4,000 bucks all said and done. HOWEVER, we are talking about a lot of money on your end.

PS. which broker are you using? Feel free to email me or PM me on here as i am sure not one wants to see our back and forth conversation. Hope it all works out if it has not already!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Given the vastly increased supply of women in the workforce, are practice owners finding it easier to hire associates? Also what kind of financial arrangement do you see set up between GP practice owners and in-house specialists hired by the GP?

Thanks!

interesting question and point. Dental schools are easily 50-50 right now in terms of men and women. Maybe even leaning towards women more now...Not sure what you mean by is it easier to hire associates now? Are you thinking that most of these women are not going to be practice owners? What ever it may be, we have not seen this huge influx of women coming out of dental school affecting dentistry yet. I read in the FDA awhile back that like 35% of dentists never own their own practice and work as an associate their whole lives.

In-house specialists are THE FUTURE. It is getting more and more popular. It is a win-win for both the GP and specialists. GPs are now making money on a procedure they were sending out and making nothing on. While specialists don't have to have the headaches of running a business and the overhead of it as well. They come in to your office and do what they gotta do then go home. It's fantastic. I am generally seeing a 50% to the specialist and 50% to the GP. It depends on the specialty. Now for the lab and supplies, let's just say that there is a implant to be done on a patient and it costs $200 bucks for the implant alone and you charge $1000 to the patient. You would take the $200 off the top ($1000) then split the profit. $400 to you and $400 to them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Greg,

From what I can gather you work for/with your father. How long have you been working with your Dad?

You have discussed perio/endo dr. traveling. How many endo's do you know that do travel? Do they carry an assistant?

I see you are in transitions. How many current endo offices are for sale within your portfolio? How many have you sold the past 5 years? Have you noticed a change in value to endo office sales?

thanks
 
Greg,

From what I can gather you work for/with your father. How long have you been working with your Dad?

You have discussed perio/endo dr. traveling. How many endo's do you know that do travel? Do they carry an assistant?

I see you are in transitions. How many current endo offices are for sale within your portfolio? How many have you sold the past 5 years? Have you noticed a change in value to endo office sales?

thanks


Yes I work with my father - Kenny. I have been working with him for about 3 years now...

I know 3 or 4 endos that travel off the top of my head and love doing it. Some will carry an assistant and some don't - personal preference.

I don't think we have any endo practices for sale right now throughout Florida. Keep in mind that we have 100+ practices for sale. Endo practices for sale are unicorns. I personally have never sold a endo practice, but Kenny (mi padre) has sold a few. The problem I see with selling specialty practices is that these sellers / older docs do not understand that yes their practice is worth something but you have to realize that endo / OS practices are heavily referral driven. These sellers think as a GP and that you can sell and be done after a month. In specialties, not the case. The selling doc needs to stay on and introduce the buyer to all the referring docs and hope it works out. It may take 1 year plus.

With that said, my honest opinion is that I personally would never buy a endo / OS practice. Why? Well the referring docs one have to like the new doc, but more importantly have to do great work like the seller. In conclusion, you really have to have a good fit and a buyer that you think will work out. The Sellers know who will make it and who won't with their practice / referring docs. I would do a start up or be a traveling specialist.

The ONLY way I would buy a ENDO / OS practice is using our secret formula because it is a risk in my opinion, I would tell the seller to stay on for 6 months and that you will pay him "x" percent of what YOU (the buyer) gross. Say you on your own make 600K, then after one year you pay the seller "x" % of that number. You will probably give him some money upfront.

Just my opinion. Others in the profession may agree or disagree. Specialists make boat loads of money and can't complain that selling their practices are not worth as much as a GP. It's the market!

What are they worth ballpark? I would be guessing if I told you. I will ask around of some guys in our company that have sold them and understand them better than I do.
 
Who else has questions!? These questions help me as I am speaking to new grads in a few months and it gives me an idea of what you guys want to know. If you have a more personal question feel free to PM me.

Cheers
 
It would be nice to get a general sense of what is out there for practice opportunities being sold. What is the range for gross? What is typical? What about overhead? Also could you comment on the demographics of the doctors you see that are trying to purchase practices? How many years out do they tend to be, and how much experience do you think they should have before purchasing. Thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
In-house specialists are THE FUTURE. It is getting more and more popular. It is a win-win for both the GP and specialists. GPs are now making money on a procedure they were sending out and making nothing on. While specialists don't have to have the headaches of running a business and the overhead of it as well. They come in to your office and do what they gotta do then go home. It's fantastic. I am generally seeing a 50% to the specialist and 50% to the GP. It depends on the specialty. Now for the lab and supplies, let's just say that there is a implant to be done on a patient and it costs $200 bucks for the implant alone and you charge $1000 to the patient. You would take the $200 off the top ($1000) then split the profit. $400 to you and $400 to them.


Do you think that in-house specialists make the same amount as if they had their own practice location, if they both (traveling specialists and practice owners) see the same number of patients? Or does it vary based on how they decide to split the costs? Should it be similar either way, where the traveling specialists make as much as if they owned their own practice, but without the hassle of running their own office??
 
It would be nice to get a general sense of what is out there for practice opportunities being sold. What is the range for gross? What is typical? What about overhead? Also could you comment on the demographics of the doctors you see that are trying to purchase practices? How many years out do they tend to be, and how much experience do you think they should have before purchasing. Thanks!

Disclaimer: Remember that these numbers may be Florida specific

Range for gross...on AVERAGE, I would say 500K to 600K

Overhead? general overhead is 65% to 70% in most cases.

Demographics of doctors purchasing - the typical buyer is generally someone who is 2 years to 8 years out of school. You should and we recommend that new grads go work as an associate for at least 2 years. You need to learn to be more efficient, confident, and the ropes of running a business. If you did a residency, then maybe only a year but ideally 2 in the real world. You should try and work a few different jobs as well so you can learn the tricks of the trade from different doctors or corporations. These doctors are bringing on an associate and successful for a reason. Figure out why! Easy to pick up bad habits as well...be careful

MOST IMPORTANTLY, when you are ready to buy something you HAVE to put on your "business hat" and stop looking at the old equipment in these practices. A practice with older decor and equipment may be a cash cow with globs of opportunities. The seller may be NETTING $300,000 a year and be referring out all endo, 3rd molor extractions, any difficult crown and bridge cases, ect. With that said, learn to do these things that most GPs are sending out. It will make you rich. However, you have to like doing these things as well. In conclusion, find a practice that makes money with opportunity. Don't be afraid of the sale price...find out how much money you will be able to make after all expenses are paid.

does this help and answer your question?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Do you think that in-house specialists make the same amount as if they had their own practice location, if they both (traveling specialists and practice owners) see the same number of patients? Or does it vary based on how they decide to split the costs? Should it be similar either way, where the traveling specialists make as much as if they owned their own practice, but without the hassle of running their own office??

I think traveling specialist will and do make more compared to if they had their own office. You do not have to pay a staff, rent, utilities, ect. You essentially have no overhead besides lab and supplies which are split 50-50 between you and the "hiring doc". It is really a win win as you should make more money with less headaches and the GP is happy as they are making something as before they were making nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hey Greg,
First off, thanks for all of the awesome advice you have given on here. I am considering coming down to the south after I graduate so Florida is a possibility. I will be graduating with about $400,000 of debt (out of state schooling unfortunately). If you were in my position, what route would you take? I do not want to specialize and personally don't see a great benefit to doing a GPR or AEGD so wasn't really planning on those. I want to get my loan debt taken care of but at the same time I also want to be done living like a student. What are your thoughts on different options and what kind of money would you expect from them? Sorry thats such a loaded question! Thanks!
 
Hello Greg_Jones. Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. Your advice is very helpful to all of us. I have a quick question. I have been interested in practicing in a rural area for quite sometime. Could you please tell me what the average salary for a dentist in a rural area in Florida that's owns a general practice? Do you have any rural areas in particular that you would recommend?

Thanks!
 
Hey Greg,
First off, thanks for all of the awesome advice you have given on here. I am considering coming down to the south after I graduate so Florida is a possibility. I will be graduating with about $400,000 of debt (out of state schooling unfortunately). If you were in my position, what route would you take? I do not want to specialize and personally don't see a great benefit to doing a GPR or AEGD so wasn't really planning on those. I want to get my loan debt taken care of but at the same time I also want to be done living like a student. What are your thoughts on different options and what kind of money would you expect from them? Sorry thats such a loaded question! Thanks!


Not a problem!

I would not do a GPR personally. They do have their perks but in reality as you said, you guys have massive loans and 35K salary a year inst going to cut it. I would go work as an associate for a corporation and another dentist. Ideally both! For instance, maybe a year at a corporation then another year with a solo practitioner. If you find a job with a solo practitioner that is willing to take you right out of school then absolutely do it. It needs to be someone who wants to teach you however.

My brother is a D4 at Howard right now and he is going to go work for heartland for a year then hopefully with a solo practitioner. After 2 or more years then you can look into buying a practice. Why 2 years? Well, you have to get faster and more efficient in your dentistry but more important learn how a dental practice runs and operates! Owning a practice is a business and you have to know the basics on how to run one. Sounds simple but it's not. Focus on your business skills, personal relation skills. Sad as it is, your patients come to you for your personality, not your quality work. Patients have no clue if your dentistry is above average or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hello Greg_Jones. Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. Your advice is very helpful to all of us. I have a quick question. I have been interested in practicing in a rural area for quite sometime. Could you please tell me what the average salary for a dentist in a rural area in Florida that's owns a general practice? Do you have any rural areas in particular that you would recommend?

Thanks!
Rural practices are a gold mine. People don't understand that you do not have to work where you practice. You can live in a larger city and drive 45 mins to work. Some people it does not bother and others it does. Personal preference. Not to keep using my brother as an example but ideally I would like to see him have a practice in Palm Beach County, FL but also in a rural area called Okeechobee. The patients in rural areas are VERY loyal and need YOU. There is lots of dentistry to be done. With rural areas comes blue collar folks and with that usually comes a lot of HMO and some Medicaid.Basically all depends on what you like to do.

Why are they a gold mine? Less dentists / competition but also lower expenses. Your rent will be cheap, your staff usually gets paid less, ect ect. Rent and staff are going to be your two main variable expenses.

Average salary of a dentist in a rural area? Tough call...I would be guessing if i told you something...If i was you, i would have a practice in a "larger city" and also another in a rural area. With that said, I also would stay away from start-ups. Read more here on why I say that:
http://doctorschoicecompanies.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/catch-me-if-you-can/

I can give you an example. There was a practice we had for sale in Leesberg, FL that is considered, more rural than most places in Florida. This was a pediatric practice grossing about 1.2 million consistently and it was primarily (90+ %) Medicaid. The doctor was working 3 days a week and was NETTING 600K a year. He worked his butt off on those 3 days and saw 35 patients on long hours. I don't know about you but I would do that deal all day long if i was a pediatric dentist. He ended up just closing up shop as no one would buy it. CRAZY....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not a problem!

I would not do a GPR personally. They do have their perks but in reality as you said, you guys have massive loans and 35K salary a year inst going to cut it. I would go work as an associate for a corporation and another dentist. Ideally both! For instance, maybe a year at a corporation then another year with a solo practitioner. If you find a job with a solo practitioner that is willing to take you right out of school then absolutely do it. It needs to be someone who wants to teach you however.

My brother is a D4 at Howard right now and he is going to go work for heartland for a year then hopefully with a solo practitioner. After 2 or more years then you can look into buying a practice. Why 2 years? Well, you have to get faster and more efficient in your dentistry but more important learn how a dental practice runs and operates! Owning a practice is a business and you have to know the basics on how to run one. Sounds simple but it's not. Focus on your business skills, personal relation skills. Sad as it is, your patients come to you for your personality, not your quality work. Patients have no clue if your dentistry is above average or not.

As far as different corporate offices go, how close do they come to actually paying the amounts they promise? They all say things such as "Guaranteed $175,000 your first year out!" and things of that nature. I have heard that most people do not actually make the amount that is being "guaranteed" in order to pull grads in. Do you know anything about this? Thanks!
 
As far as different corporate offices go, how close do they come to actually paying the amounts they promise? They all say things such as "Guaranteed $175,000 your first year out!" and things of that nature. I have heard that most people do not actually make the amount that is being "guaranteed" in order to pull grads in. Do you know anything about this? Thanks!

I don't know anything about guaranteed salaries as they are all different. I would absolutely make sure you find a corporation with a good reputation. We have heard mostly positive things about Heartland and Town care dental. Whether these are in your area, i don't know. For an associate, you should be NETTING 32% of collections OR Minimum $500 day. Somewhere in this ball ball....Corporations have complex models for payout.

I would say that you can make $175K year first year working for a corporation. It just depends on how fast you learn and how fast you can get. They are going to stress you out about seeing more patients. You gotta lay down the law on them sometimes and say 15 patients in one day in not realistic haha. I know a buyer right now that works for Aspen dental making 250K year, two years out of school.

realistically, you should make 100k to 170K first year.
 
Not a problem!

I would not do a GPR personally. They do have their perks but in reality as you said, you guys have massive loans and 35K salary a year inst going to cut it. I would go work as an associate for a corporation and another dentist. Ideally both! For instance, maybe a year at a corporation then another year with a solo practitioner. If you find a job with a solo practitioner that is willing to take you right out of school then absolutely do it. It needs to be someone who wants to teach you however.

My brother is a D4 at Howard right now and he is going to go work for heartland for a year then hopefully with a solo practitioner. After 2 or more years then you can look into buying a practice. Why 2 years? Well, you have to get faster and more efficient in your dentistry but more important learn how a dental practice runs and operates! Owning a practice is a business and you have to know the basics on how to run one. Sounds simple but it's not. Focus on your business skills, personal relation skills. Sad as it is, your patients come to you for your personality, not your quality work. Patients have no clue if your dentistry is above average or not.

I was shadowing a dentist recently who gave me the same advice regarding a GPR. He went to work for a smaller local chain right after graduating. High volume, open 14 hours a day 7 days a week. The guy in charge was willing to take time to show him the ropes, too. He said he felt like he got 5 years of dentistry out of that one year. A couple years out of dental school and he's about to take over a Heartland-affiliated solo practice in the middle of a big city.

Both going to work for someone and going to a GPR involve a lot of luck, but at least one pays you.
 
I was shadowing a dentist recently who gave me the same advice regarding a GPR. He went to work for a smaller local chain right after graduating. High volume, open 14 hours a day 7 days a week. The guy in charge was willing to take time to show him the ropes, too. He said he felt like he got 5 years of dentistry out of that one year. A couple years out of dental school and he's about to take over a Heartland-affiliated solo practice in the middle of a big city.

Both going to work for someone and going to a GPR involve a lot of luck, but at least one pays you.

Good story. You are right. Finding the right opportunity involves some luck.
 
I don't know anything about guaranteed salaries as they are all different. I would absolutely make sure you find a corporation with a good reputation. We have heard mostly positive things about Heartland and Town care dental. Whether these are in your area, i don't know. For an associate, you should be NETTING 32% of collections OR Minimum $500 day. Somewhere in this ball ball....Corporations have complex models for payout.

I would say that you can make $175K year first year working for a corporation. It just depends on how fast you learn and how fast you can get. They are going to stress you out about seeing more patients. You gotta lay down the law on them sometimes and say 15 patients in one day in not realistic haha. I know a buyer right now that works for Aspen dental making 250K year, two years out of school.

realistically, you should make 100k to 170K first year.

just curious...if this guy is making that much working for a corporation, why is he wanting to buy?
 
Probably wants to make more money or be his own boss or both. All depends what kind of life you want I would assume
 
Been wondering about this correlation to help decide where to open a practice after graduation. Do you see a correlation between salary and patients per dentist? If so, can you give an estimate of the salary change for a dentist working in an area of 2000 patients per dentist and another area with 4000 patients per dentist. Thanks for all of your detailed answers, just found this thread today. Awesome resource
 
just curious...if this guy is making that much working for a corporation, why is he wanting to buy?
Because you can make more running your own business. plus, getting told what to do and seeing 20 patients a day can be no fun. Those are probably the main reasons why people end up buying.
 
Been wondering about this correlation to help decide where to open a practice after graduation. Do you see a correlation between salary and patients per dentist? If so, can you give an estimate of the salary change for a dentist working in an area of 2000 patients per dentist and another area with 4000 patients per dentist. Thanks for all of your detailed answers, just found this thread today. Awesome resource

Not exactly clear what you are asking, but use this link below to figure out the dentist to person ratio. I am not sure how accurate it is but great resource!

http://www.aftco.net/Dental-Transitions-Resources/Dentistics.aspx

In regards to patient to salary ratio, here are my thoughts....I've seen practices with 3,000 active patients grossing $600,000 and I've seen practices with 1400 actice patients grossing $600,000. What does this mean? it could mean a few things. One, that the practice with less patients actually has patients that care about their teeth and are coming in regularly. Also, that this doctor is probably not referring out much work. On the other hand, the other doctor / practice may be doing HMO, may not have a good recall system, ect ect.

If this does not answer you question then please clarify!

PS. I would not start up a practice. Link to why I think so below. There are pros and cons to both of course but focus on making money! Not having a brand new office with all the gadgets.

http://doctorschoicecompanies.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/catch-me-if-you-can/
 
Not exactly clear what you are asking, but use this link below to figure out the dentist to person ratio. I am not sure how accurate it is but great resource!

http://www.aftco.net/Dental-Transitions-Resources/Dentistics.aspx

In regards to patient to salary ratio, here are my thoughts....I've seen practices with 3,000 active patients grossing $600,000 and I've seen practices with 1400 actice patients grossing $600,000. What does this mean? it could mean a few things. One, that the practice with less patients actually has patients that care about their teeth and are coming in regularly. Also, that this doctor is probably not referring out much work. On the other hand, the other doctor / practice may be doing HMO, may not have a good recall system, ect ect.

If this does not answer you question then please clarify!

PS. I would not start up a practice. Link to why I think so below. There are pros and cons to both of course but focus on making money! Not having a brand new office with all the gadgets.

http://doctorschoicecompanies.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/catch-me-if-you-can/
Sorry, I did word it pretty confusing. In other words, do you see an increased dentist salary from more active patients, higher HH income in the area, neither, or too many other factors also contribute? Your answer basically covers most, thanks for the response.

As for not opening a practice, thanks for the link, never looked at it that way.
 
There are a tons of variables but yes those you mentioned are important depending on what kind of practice you are looking for but really depends. For instance, we are selling a practice right now and the practice is on an island. He has only 800 active patients that are mostly FFS and he only sees 5 patients a day. He is making $600K a year on 3 days a week. Sounds pretty sweet right?

In most situations, yes things like: housing income, active patients, not sending out work, new patients per month, booked hygiene schedule, ect are all things that result in more money.
 
Happy Friday! Who else has a question? These questions help me as I am speaking in 2 weeks to seniors dental students. Gives me an idea of what you guys and gals want to know. Keep em coming!
 
BUMP. I want to help = )
 
you think the future of endo seems dim. Do you know the income range for recent grad endo associates? I believe the income range for them is around 200k year?
 
Thanks for your support and your continuing effort to come back and answer some questions. I have two.

The range of GP owner salary in Flordia?

You interact with a lot of dentists, do they seem happy? Dental Town is a bit of a downer sometimes.
 
you think the future of endo seems dim. Do you know the income range for recent grad endo associates? I believe the income range for them is around 200k year?

I don't think it seems dim, I just think IMO that private practice endo is dying down some. When I say private practice, I mean for an endodontist to have their own office. I really think that this traveling specialist thing is going to explode soon and everyone will be doing it. Plus insurance pays specialists more.
 
Thanks for your support and your continuing effort to come back and answer some questions. I have two.

The range of GP owner salary in Flordia?

You interact with a lot of dentists, do they seem happy? Dental Town is a bit of a downer sometimes.

Range of GP salary after a few years of experience....on average, you should be NETTING after all expenses are paid about 200K to 300K. $250K is probably a good safe average.

Do they seem happy? Well, it is what you make it. I have guys that are very successful and they are at a point where if they don't like a patient that they will ask them to find another dentist. It stresses them out and it makes them "unhappy" so they don't deal with it. Anyways, yes I would say that most dentists enjoy what they do. I try and stay off DT as it is a downer! You get too many opinions on there. Don't spend too much time on there lol.

In conclusion, stay upbeat and positive! Dentistry is a personality game. Your patients do not know how good your dentistry is. Though of course you should be doing quality work. Dentists make a lot of money, but you guys work very hard. Dentistry is hard hard work. It is what you make it. Surround yourself with a cheery staff and enjoy what you do. The biggest complaints i hear are on the business end as most doctor want to just drill and not run a business. You have to do both!
 
Are there any services/CE's your recommend for a new graduate to learn in particular in order to accommodate the US market?
 
Top