Pressure transducers

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

florisio

Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2001
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
Question for you folks:

Regarding intraarterial pressure measurements,

When you zero the pressure using the stopcock at the level of the heart, does it matter where the transducer is physically located. Hence, if the transducer is at the floor let's say and you zero the pressure with the stopcock opened to air at the level of the heart, haven't you accounted for (zeroed) both atmospheric pressure and the effect of the hydrostatic pressure due to the height difference between the point where you zero and where the transducer is positioned? But if that's true, what is the need for leveling the transducer? Why would you need to level and zero at the same position; if only for aesthetics?

-F

Members don't see this ad.
 
florisio said:
Question for you folks:

Regarding intraarterial pressure measurements,

When you zero the pressure using the stopcock at the level of the heart, does it matter where the transducer is physically located. Hence, if the transducer is at the floor let's say and you zero the pressure with the stopcock opened to air at the level of the heart, haven't you accounted for (zeroed) both atmospheric pressure and the effect of the hydrostatic pressure due to the height difference between the point where you zero and where the transducer is positioned? But if that's true, what is the need for leveling the transducer? Why would you need to level and zero at the same position; if only for aesthetics?

-F
The transducer should be level with the heart, - it doesn't matter where the stopcock is or which one you open to air. If you raise or lower the transducer relative to the level of the heart, you'll see the indicated pressures rise or fall as well.

Your logic is flawed. When you zero the transducer to atmospheric pressure, there is no pressure from the fluid in the tubing because it's open to air. Once the system is closed again, the pressure from the fluid column again comes into play.
 
florisio said:
Question for you folks:

Regarding intraarterial pressure measurements,

When you zero the pressure using the stopcock at the level of the heart, does it matter where the transducer is physically located. Hence, if the transducer is at the floor let's say and you zero the pressure with the stopcock opened to air at the level of the heart, haven't you accounted for (zeroed) both atmospheric pressure and the effect of the hydrostatic pressure due to the height difference between the point where you zero and where the transducer is positioned? But if that's true, what is the need for leveling the transducer? Why would you need to level and zero at the same position; if only for aesthetics?

-F

Isn't it just cvp and pa transducers that must be leveled w/ the phlebostatic axis? I think as long as you zero after moving the transducer it doesn't matter where it is since you zero'd? I wasn't aware art lines necessarily needed to be leveled, only zero'd.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
All transducers should be zeroed at the level of the heart. Any change from that level and your readings are off.

It's not quite as critical with arterial pressures as it is with CVP's and PA's. A change in pressure of 10mmHg in an arterial pressure is often negligible. A change in CVP or PA pressures of 10mmHg can carry a lot of significance.
 
jwk said:
All transducers should be zeroed at the level of the heart. Any change from that level and your readings are off.

wrong - and, you just contradicted yourself. the readings should be taken at the level of the heart. it doesn't matter at what level the transducer is zeroed, because (as you stated before) it is open to the atmosphere and not connected to the patient when it is zeroed. (i think this is what you originally meant/mean anyway.) in other words, the transducer is zeroed to the atmosphere, not the patient. and, unless you are under the incorrect impression that moving the transducer up or down a few inches affects the zeroing point from swings of atmosphere pressure, then it really doesn't matter where the a-line transducer is zeroed. in other words, we typically don't re-zero when we move the patient to another floor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Can someone re-address that specific question about the hydrostatic pressure though. Because if you open the stopcock to air the transducer should be sensing atmospheric pressure + hydrostatic pressure. Hence, on rounds this came up one time with a cvp tracing and the att zeroed the stopcock two feet above the patient (transducer at the level of the RA), now flip it back to the patient and the CVP is negative 20 or so because the zero point comprised those two feet of hydrostatic pressure. I'm pretty sure i'm remembering this part correctly.
 
okay, it's like this. the reason why you keep the transducer leveled at the patient's heart is that this is isostatic point representing what you want to measure. all the transducer is actually doing is measuring a pulsation against the column of liquid that is within the tubing. (this is why it's important to have a rigid tube that is not too long, etc.). this closed system then essentially becomes a column of water that is an extension of the patient's blood volume.

each pulsation from a heartbeat is nothing more than a snapshot of the fluid wave that the heart generates with each beat. if you are measuring at the level of the heart, that is the zero point for that patient and represents the true central blood pressure coming out of the heart.

imagine a syphon system. just like if you hook up a flexible tube to a jar of water, if you raise the end of the tube, the column of water in the tube falls to the level of the jar. if you lower the tube below the level of the water in the jar, the water will spill out of it. gravity and surface tension are at play. it doesn't matter where the tube attached to the jar runs to, just where the end of that tube is. in an art-line, the transducer essentially represents the end of that tube, or in the case of this system the point of interest. the art line set-up is actually a pressure bag that is a closed column (which actually runs back towards the patient at a very slow rate).

atmospheric pressure exerts an equal amount of pressure in all directions around the entire system. this is why open the transducer to the atmosphere in order to make sure the transducer's zero point is equalized with the atmosphere. nothing more. this sets the zero point to the atmospheric pressure. this is simply a way to calibrate or reset the system to a neutral point that factors out any atmosphere influence on your reading.

if you raise the transducer two feet above the patient's head, zero it to the atmosphere, then close the system back to the patient and leave the transducer in the same spot, the patient's heart essentially has to push that column of liquid an extra two feet against gravity. the result is a lower-than-expected reading in comparison to the patient's actual blood pressure. conversely, if you lower the transducer below the patient's heart, now you have gravity working on the column of water in addition to the pulsation. the result is that the pulsation pushing against the column of water is amplified by gravity, and the reading from the transducer is artificially amplified resulting in a pressure reading that is actually higher than what is coming out of the patient's heart. all we care about at the measurement end is what is working on that column of water - the pulsation wave from the heart and any gravitational effects on that column of water within the heart (and there are other very minor influences such as how much "give" is in the tubing, etc.).

equally important is to also keep the catheter insertion point isostatic with the heart. next time you put an art-line in, raise the patient's arm up and down in comparison to the heart and see what happens. this is because the column of blood transfusing through the artery is subject to the same gravitational effect, and this is also amplified into your reading.

in summary, zeroing the transducer has nothing to do with the patient. remember that. this is only a way to factor out atmospheric pressure from the system, which affects the entire system, and to essentially calibrate the instrument to a neutral point. this is an important concept to remember. position of the transducer and the level of the sampling catheter insertion point mean everything.

now, to answer your question...

typically, the stopcock used for zeroing is at the same level of the transducer. if these are different, then you will have a measurement of the hydrostatic pressure within whatever tubing length is away from the transducer. this will represent the effect of the gravity effect of the column of water height that is pushing on the transducer when it is zeroed, unless everything is at an isostatic point at the time of zeroing. think of it like zeroing a weight scale. if you step on a scale, push the zero button, and then step off, you are going to get the perfect negative number of how much you weigh. same principle. that column of water has pushed against the cvp measurement. if you got -20 once "reconnected to the patient", then this means that the open end of the stopcock was probably 28-32 cm above the transducer when it was zeroed, if we assume that the patient's CVP was the expected 8-12 cm H2O.
 
jwk said:
All transducers should be zeroed at the level of the heart. Any change from that level and your readings are off.

It's not quite as critical with arterial pressures as it is with CVP's and PA's. A change in pressure of 10mmHg in an arterial pressure is often negligible. A change in CVP or PA pressures of 10mmHg can carry a lot of significance.

It is critical with Alines as well, especially if you're titrating vasoactive gtts. I forget the exact formula, but it's something like for every 1-2 cms off you are on your leveling, you will be off by at least 10 points on your aline. When you reposition a patient and you're no longer level, it can make a huge difference, you'll see it in your numbers on the monitor.

You should level to the phlebostatic axis (we use the stopcock on the transducer as the reference point to zero and level), which is roughly where the right atrium point is in majority of patients. This has been found to be the most accurate.

About the original question, depending on how the transducer is positioned (either too high or too low), you will see effects of atmospheric pressure and hydrostatic pressure if you're not zeroed and leveled correctly.
 
VolatileAgent said:
okay, it's like this. the reason why you keep the transducer leveled at the patient's heart is that this is isostatic point representing what you want to measure. all the transducer is actually doing is measuring a pulsation against the column of liquid that is within the tubing. (this is why it's important to have a rigid tube that is not too long, etc.). this closed system then essentially becomes a column of water that is an extension of the patient's blood volume.

each pulsation from a heartbeat is nothing more than a snapshot of the fluid wave that the heart generates with each beat. if you are measuring at the level of the heart, that is the zero point for that patient and represents the true central blood pressure coming out of the heart.

imagine a syphon system. just like if you hook up a flexible tube to a jar of water, if you raise the end of the tube, the column of water in the tube falls to the level of the jar. if you lower the tube below the level of the water in the jar, the water will spill out of it. gravity and surface tension are at play. it doesn't matter where the tube attached to the jar runs to, just where the end of that tube is. in an art-line, the transducer essentially represents the end of that tube, or in the case of this system the point of interest. the art line set-up is actually a pressure bag that is a closed column (which actually runs back towards the patient at a very slow rate).

atmospheric pressure exerts an equal amount of pressure in all directions around the entire system. this is why open the transducer to the atmosphere in order to make sure the transducer's zero point is equalized with the atmosphere. nothing more. this sets the zero point to the atmospheric pressure. this is simply a way to calibrate or reset the system to a neutral point that factors out any atmosphere influence on your reading.

if you raise the transducer two feet above the patient's head, zero it to the atmosphere, then close the system back to the patient and leave the transducer in the same spot, the patient's heart essentially has to push that column of liquid an extra two feet against gravity. the result is a lower-than-expected reading in comparison to the patient's actual blood pressure. conversely, if you lower the transducer below the patient's heart, now you have gravity working on the column of water in addition to the pulsation. the result is that the pulsation pushing against the column of water is amplified by gravity, and the reading from the transducer is artificially amplified resulting in a pressure reading that is actually higher than what is coming out of the patient's heart. all we care about at the measurement end is what is working on that column of water - the pulsation wave from the heart and any gravitational effects on that column of water within the heart (and there are other very minor influences such as how much "give" is in the tubing, etc.).

equally important is to also keep the catheter insertion point isostatic with the heart. next time you put an art-line in, raise the patient's arm up and down in comparison to the heart and see what happens. this is because the column of blood transfusing through the artery is subject to the same gravitational effect, and this is also amplified into your reading.

in summary, zeroing the transducer has nothing to do with the patient. remember that. this is only a way to factor out atmospheric pressure from the system, which affects the entire system, and to essentially calibrate the instrument to a neutral point. this is an important concept to remember. position of the transducer and the level of the sampling catheter insertion point mean everything.

now, to answer your question...

typically, the stopcock used for zeroing is at the same level of the transducer. if these are different, then you will have a measurement of the hydrostatic pressure within whatever tubing length is away from the transducer. this will represent the effect of the gravity effect of the column of water height that is pushing on the transducer when it is zeroed, unless everything is at an isostatic point at the time of zeroing. think of it like zeroing a weight scale. if you step on a scale, push the zero button, and then step off, you are going to get the perfect negative number of how much you weigh. same principle. that column of water has pushed against the cvp measurement. if you got -20 once "reconnected to the patient", then this means that the open end of the stopcock was probably 28-32 cm above the transducer when it was zeroed, if we assume that the patient's CVP was the expected 8-12 cm H2O.

Great reply. I once thought that I had to zero the lines at the phleb axis everytime. JWK zero your line where you normally do now, then put the transducer in an unleveled position and rezero. Then put it back at your original level and see what you get. Your readings will be the same.

Also you want to monitor the pressure you are most concerned with. YEs many times it is your phlebo axis put if you are doing a case where the pt is sitting upright and you are keeping the pt slightly hypotensive keeping the transducer at the level of the circle of willis may be best. Having it at the heart may be over estimating the pressures upstairs.
 
OK, here is one for all you geniuses.


How does JNCVII recommend you take the blood pressure? In case you don't know, JNC VII is the bible for blood pressure management...the bible from which we (anesthesia specialty) has taken management strategies and bastardized it to fit into what we do?

So...how does the bible recommend how the BP is taken....ie where should the transducer be? and in what position is the patient in when it is taken.
 
VolatileAgent said:
okay, it's like this. the reason why you keep the transducer leveled at the patient's heart is that this is isostatic point representing what you want to measure. all the transducer is actually doing is measuring a pulsation against the column of liquid that is within the tubing. (this is why it's important to have a rigid tube that is not too long, etc.). this closed system then essentially becomes a column of water that is an extension of the patient's blood volume.

each pulsation from a heartbeat is nothing more than a snapshot of the fluid wave that the heart generates with each beat. if you are measuring at the level of the heart, that is the zero point for that patient and represents the true central blood pressure coming out of the heart.

imagine a syphon system. just like if you hook up a flexible tube to a jar of water, if you raise the end of the tube, the column of water in the tube falls to the level of the jar. if you lower the tube below the level of the water in the jar, the water will spill out of it. gravity and surface tension are at play. it doesn't matter where the tube attached to the jar runs to, just where the end of that tube is. in an art-line, the transducer essentially represents the end of that tube, or in the case of this system the point of interest. the art line set-up is actually a pressure bag that is a closed column (which actually runs back towards the patient at a very slow rate).

atmospheric pressure exerts an equal amount of pressure in all directions around the entire system. this is why open the transducer to the atmosphere in order to make sure the transducer's zero point is equalized with the atmosphere. nothing more. this sets the zero point to the atmospheric pressure. this is simply a way to calibrate or reset the system to a neutral point that factors out any atmosphere influence on your reading.

if you raise the transducer two feet above the patient's head, zero it to the atmosphere, then close the system back to the patient and leave the transducer in the same spot, the patient's heart essentially has to push that column of liquid an extra two feet against gravity. the result is a lower-than-expected reading in comparison to the patient's actual blood pressure. conversely, if you lower the transducer below the patient's heart, now you have gravity working on the column of water in addition to the pulsation. the result is that the pulsation pushing against the column of water is amplified by gravity, and the reading from the transducer is artificially amplified resulting in a pressure reading that is actually higher than what is coming out of the patient's heart. all we care about at the measurement end is what is working on that column of water - the pulsation wave from the heart and any gravitational effects on that column of water within the heart (and there are other very minor influences such as how much "give" is in the tubing, etc.).

equally important is to also keep the catheter insertion point isostatic with the heart. next time you put an art-line in, raise the patient's arm up and down in comparison to the heart and see what happens. this is because the column of blood transfusing through the artery is subject to the same gravitational effect, and this is also amplified into your reading.

in summary, zeroing the transducer has nothing to do with the patient. remember that. this is only a way to factor out atmospheric pressure from the system, which affects the entire system, and to essentially calibrate the instrument to a neutral point. this is an important concept to remember. position of the transducer and the level of the sampling catheter insertion point mean everything.

now, to answer your question...

typically, the stopcock used for zeroing is at the same level of the transducer. if these are different, then you will have a measurement of the hydrostatic pressure within whatever tubing length is away from the transducer. this will represent the effect of the gravity effect of the column of water height that is pushing on the transducer when it is zeroed, unless everything is at an isostatic point at the time of zeroing. think of it like zeroing a weight scale. if you step on a scale, push the zero button, and then step off, you are going to get the perfect negative number of how much you weigh. same principle. that column of water has pushed against the cvp measurement. if you got -20 once "reconnected to the patient", then this means that the open end of the stopcock was probably 28-32 cm above the transducer when it was zeroed, if we assume that the patient's CVP was the expected 8-12 cm H2O.

Dude, you musta worked part time for Kaplan in college.

If you didnt, you should've.

Nice, nice explanation.
 
Nice discussion folks.
Though, I had the opportunity to play with these lines today in the icu a little bit. And originally i was addressing the specific issue of zeroing using the stopcock on a flexible tube that is midway between the transducer and the patient. And it turned out that it doesn't matter where the transducer is leveled so long as you zero the stopcock at the level of the heart. In effect, this zeroing eliminates the hydrostatic pressure effect from the difference in height between stopcock and transducer. And there is good agreement no matter where the transducer is positioned. However, i do appreciate what you say about the leveling because it is more of a "pure" measurement in some sense. And in this respect, it makes sense to use the stopcock on the transducer itself. Though it doesn't seem to matter much.
 
militarymd said:
OK, here is one for all you geniuses.


How does JNCVII recommend you take the blood pressure? In case you don't know, JNC VII is the bible for blood pressure management...the bible from which we (anesthesia specialty) has taken management strategies and bastardized it to fit into what we do?

So...how does the bible recommend how the BP is taken....ie where should the transducer be? and in what position is the patient in when it is taken.

Bueller....Bueller....
 
UTSouthwestern said:
JNC VII doesn't mention invasive blood pressure monitoring.

The location of the NIBP cuff in relation to the RA is essentially the location of the transducer when doing invasive blood pressure monitoring.
 
militarymd said:
The location of the NIBP cuff in relation to the RA is essentially the location of the transducer when doing invasive blood pressure monitoring.


I haven't read it, but I would guess BP is taken with the patient in the seated position with the cuff overlying the brachial artery and the arm in the same plane as the thorax. I generally will place my transducer at about the level of the mastoid process in a supine patient.
 
"equally important is to also keep the catheter insertion point isostatic with the heart. next time you put an art-line in, raise the patient's arm up and down in comparison to the heart and see what happens. this is because the column of blood transfusing through the artery is subject to the same gravitational effect, and this is also amplified into your reading."

This is incorrect. And you just explained why it is wrong. It doesn't matter what path the blood takes as long as the transducer is still at the level that you want to measure the pressure at. Now a NIBP will change as you change the height of the cuff. And yes the pressure in that hand will be lower, but your central pressure and a-line pressure will remain the same.

In case you don't believe me, look it up in big millers, they have a nice section on this issue.

-MD attending, 99% on anesthesia exam. (not bragging, just saying you can trust me).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top