Princeton: $2.7 million in endowment for every student, why no medical school?

[superdoc2.0]

Why in the world doesn't Princeton open a medical school? They are the richest university in the United States per student, wound't opening a medical be a logical next step to cement their supreme reputation? They can definitely afford it.

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[Chansey]

I think part of the reason Princeton is ranked so highly for undergraduate education is that it focuses solely on teaching undergrads. They often tout the fact that they have no professional schools. This means they can focus all their efforts on undergraduate students, and hence why they are often recognized as the #1 undergraduate university.

Also, how large can the patient base be at Princeton, New Jersey? Good medical schools need thriving hospitals.

 

[NickNaylor]

Princeton was founded with the understanding that it would never establish professional schools. This was a requirement of either the body that granted its charter or the person who initially funded the founding of the university.

 

[superdoc2.0]

Well, they have reached critical mass. Their endowment is so big they don't ever need another donation or even for their students to pay tuition. What do you even do with that much money and no desire to expand?

If they earn a measily 6% return on their endowment, that is $162000 per student per year. You can fund an undergraduate education on $60,000-$80,000 per year. Another $20,000 per student per year on capital projects. That leaves $60,000-$80,000 per student per year to keep growing the endowment.

Craziness!

 

[NickNaylor]

Actually that may not be correct. I tried to find a source for that info but wasn't able to in the couple of minutes I looked. Maybe I made it up or heard it from someone that was misinformed. Apparently there was a Princeton Law School for a very short amount of time in the mid 1800s.

 

[superdoc2.0]

I think part of the reason Princeton is ranked so highly for undergraduate education is that it focuses solely on teaching undergrads. They often tout the fact that they have no professional schools. This means they can focus all their efforts on undergraduate students, and hence why they are often recognized as the #1 undergraduate university.

Also, how large can the patient base be at Princeton, New Jersey? Good medical schools need thriving hospitals.

Yeah, but you wouldn't need to locate your medical school in Princeton. Northwestern, among other schools I am sure, has a medical school campus separate from their undergraduate campus.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well, they have reached critical mass. Their endowment is so big they don't ever need another donation or even for their students to pay tuition. What do you even do with that much money and no desire to expand?

If they earn a measily 6% return on their endowment, that is $162000 per student per year. You can fund an undergraduate education on $60,000-$80,000 per year. Another $20,000 per student per year on capital projects. That leaves $60,000-$80,000 per student per year to keep growing the endowment.

Craziness!

Who cares? Let their endowment grow to the point that they can give all of their students free tuition without a question someday. It isn't their responsibility to grow their school. It's best they focus their efforts on where they excel, and that is undergraduate education.

 

[Chansey]

Yeah, but you wouldn't need to locate your medical school in Princeton. Northwestern, among other schools I am sure, has a medical school campus separate from their undergraduate campus.

Yeah, but Northwestern's undergraduate campus and it's medical school are only about a half hour away. [I guess another example would be Cornell, where the undergraduate campus in Ithaca is about 4 hours(?) from its medical school in NYC.]

Where in New Jersey would Princeton's medical school be? The nearest cities are New York and Philly, both of which are already saturated with good hospitals.

 

[superdoc2.0]

Who cares? Let their endowment grow to the point that they can give all of their students free tuition without a question someday. It isn't their responsibility to grow their school. It's best they focus their efforts on where they excel, and that is undergraduate education.

I wasn't questioning their strategy, simply admiring their success.

They are already at the point they can give all their students a free education. I assume they don't do because they want to grow the endowment even larger. (Although it does look like they provide a free education to about half their class)

 

[superdoc2.0]

Yeah, but Northwestern's undergraduate campus and it's medical school are only about a half hour away. [I guess another example would be Cornell, where the undergraduate campus in Ithaca is about 4 hours(?) from its medical school in NYC.]

Where in New Jersey would Princeton's medical school be? The nearest cities are New York and Philly, both of which are already saturated with good hospitals.

True. But I am sure any city could always use an additional charity hospital.

 

[Mad Jack]

I wasn't questioning their strategy, simply admiring their success.

They are already at the point they can give all their students a free education. I assume they don't do because they want to grow the endowment even larger.

You can give all of your students free education now. But if you don't allow the endowment to grow to a certain level, the growth rate will be crushed, and a financial crisis could obliterate the school's finances. What they need is for the endowment to reach a point that a fraction of the interest (say, 10%) is enough to pay for the students' education. Keep in mind, they're planning on the multi-century level, not the decade level like a public school. If they were to use half of that 162k in interest per student, that would only leave 81k to invest back into the endowment, cutting its growth rate in half, and substantially endangering their ability to keep up with the costs of higher education (which have grown astronomically over the past 20 years).

 

[superdoc2.0]

You can give all of your students free education now. But if you don't allow the endowment to grow to a certain level, the growth rate will be crushed, and a financial crisis could obliterate the school's finances. What they need is for the endowment to reach a point that a fraction of the interest (say, 10%) is enough to pay for the students' education. Keep in mind, they're planning on the multi-century level, not the decade level like a public school. If they were to use half of that 162k in interest per student, that would only leave 81k to invest back into the endowment, cutting its growth rate in half, and substantially endangering their ability to keep up with the costs of higher education (which have grown astronomically over the past 20 years).

I completely disagree. My growth estimate was conservative and it was without considering any further donations to the school (which will undoubtedly take place). I also overestimated their cost of supplying an education ($80,000 per student per year is pretty high, my public state school did it for about $35,000 per year). Plus they wouldn't even need to supply the total cost to every student as many will qualify for federal grants and/or outside scholarships. I would say they could easily supply a universally free education and continue to grow their endowment at a sufficiently robust rate to keep up with higher education inflation rates.

I imagine that many students come from families which wouldn't ever come close to needing a free handout. Many students are probably able to pay for their education with a portion of their allowance

 

[Mad Jack]

I completely disagree. My growth estimate was conservative and it was without considering any further donations to the school (which will undoubtedly take place). I also overestimated their cost of supplying an education ($80,000 per student per year is pretty high, my public state school did it for about $35,000 per year). Plus they wouldn't even need to supply the total cost to every student as many will qualify for federal grants and/or outside scholarships. I would say they could easily supply a universally free education and continue to grow their endowment at a sufficiently robust rate to keep up with higher education inflation rates.

I imagine that many students come from families which wouldn't ever come close to needing a free handout. Many students are probably able to pay for their education with a portion of their allowance

World-class educators don't work for the same salaries as those at public state schools, plus class sizes are smaller, buildings are of higher quality with higher quality equipment that is divided amongst fewer students, etc. I'd be surprised if the cost was only 80k, given the facilities and professors at Princeton, coupled with their small number of students relative to larger universities.

And, while many could afford to have their families pay, ideally, no one would have to pay as a matter of principle if the endowment were to grow large enough. Getting to that point will take another few decades (and possibly closer to a century) of endowment growth, which would provide enough leftover funding from interest to pay for students' educations, while also being able to grow the university's facilities and fund its research without having a chance of depleting the endowment, even in a crisis.

The purpose of an endowment isn't to take care of now, it's to take care of an institution forever. Through thick and thin, crises and wars and changes of government and every possible eventuality. That's why you don't spend all the interest, and allow the thing to grow, even if it comes at the expense of those people currently in need.

 

[superdoc2.0]

World-class educators don't work for the same salaries as those at public state schools, plus class sizes are smaller, buildings are of higher quality with higher quality equipment that is divided amongst fewer students, etc. I'd be surprised if the cost was only 80k, given the facilities and professors at Princeton, coupled with their small number of students relative to larger universities.

And, while many could afford to have their families pay, ideally, no one would have to pay as a matter of principle if the endowment were to grow large enough. Getting to that point will take another few decades (and possibly closer to a century) of endowment growth, which would provide enough leftover funding from interest to pay for students' educations, while also being able to grow the university's facilities and fund its research without having a chance of depleting the endowment, even in a crisis.

The purpose of an endowment isn't to take care of now, it's to take care of an institution forever. Through thick and thin, crises and wars and changes of government and every possible eventuality. That's why you don't spend all the interest, and allow the thing to grow, even if it comes at the expense of those people currently in need.

After a little research looks like their budget is about $200,000 (of which half is currently provided by the endowment) per student to run the entire university, including research costs. So you are right, they need to about double their endowment to be totally self sufficient.

The superdoc2.0 was wrong, as usual

 

[Gadofosveset]

I completely disagree. My growth estimate was conservative and it was without considering any further donations to the school (which will undoubtedly take place). I also overestimated their cost of supplying an education ($80,000 per student per year is pretty high, my public state school did it for about $35,000 per year). Plus they wouldn't even need to supply the total cost to every student as many will qualify for federal grants and/or outside scholarships. I would say they could easily supply a universally free education and continue to grow their endowment at a sufficiently robust rate to keep up with higher education inflation rates.

I imagine that many students come from families which wouldn't ever come close to needing a free handout. Many students are probably able to pay for their education with a portion of their allowance

You clearly have phenomenal insight.

Perhaps you could turn that brilliant mind to a more useful problem than spending the Princeton endowment... like convincing the Chinese 1% to liberate their pocketbooks toward curtailing the chronic Hepatitis B epidemic in China.

 

[superdoc2.0]

You clearly have phenomenal insight.

Perhaps you could turn that brilliant mind to a more useful problem than spending the Princeton endowment... like convincing the Chinese 1% to liberate their pocketbooks toward curtailing the chronic Hepatitis B epidemic in China.

Sorry, I limit my un-superior intellect to contemplation of only non-pressing issues that have no real world usefulness.

 

[Mad Jack]

Obviously costs are not the same. Why do you think I doubled my states schools cost in estimating their cost. It cost about $80,000 to educate a medical student, do you honestly think they couldn't provide a world class undergraduate education for the cost of educating a medical student?

Where in my post did I ever say they should spend all the interest? I clearly stated they would reinvest a majority of the interest.

I stand by my post. They have reached critical mass.

I had a bunch of math in here, but what it comes down to is this: when you have an endowment, your ultimate goal is to never, ever touch the principle, because once you deplete any of it, you permanently lose some of the endowment principle that you are never allowed to touch. A financial crisis can cut your endowment in half, permanently netting you a loss. So in the good times, you build it up, so that when the bad times hit, the principle doesn't get smashed. There's also a lot of rules on how and on what you can spend endowment money on. So yeah, it looks like good policy for Princeton to do a lot of things, but ultimately, a lot of those things are likely against endowment rules.

 

[superdoc2.0]

I had a bunch of math in here, but what it comes down to is this: when you have an endowment, your ultimate goal is to never, ever touch the principle, because once you deplete any of it, you permanently lose some of the endowment principle that you are never allowed to touch. A financial crisis can cut your endowment in half, permanently netting you a loss. So in the good times, you build it up, so that when the bad times hit, the principle doesn't get smashed. There's also a lot of rules on how and on what you can spend endowment money on. So yeah, it looks like good policy for Princeton to do a lot of things, but ultimately, a lot of those things are likely against endowment rules.

Please see my edit

After a little research looks like their budget is about $200,000 (of which half is currently provided by the endowment) per student to run the entire university, including research costs. So you are right, they need to about double their endowment to be totally self sufficient.

The superdoc2.0 was wrong, as usual

 

[charmiedermie]

Why in the world doesn't Princeton open a medical school? They are the richest university in the United States per student, wound't opening a medical be a logical next step to cement their supreme reputation? They can definitely afford it.

Your thread title reminds me of a meme:

 

[awared2]

I think part of the reason Princeton is ranked so highly for undergraduate education is that it focuses solely on teaching undergrads. They often tout the fact that they have no professional schools. This means they can focus all their efforts on undergraduate students, and hence why they are often recognized as the #1 undergraduate university.

Also, how large can the patient base be at Princeton, New Jersey? Good medical schools need thriving hospitals.

Isn't Trenton right next to Princeton?

 

[Chansey]

Isn't Trenton right next to Princeton?

Is Trenton considered a large city? I wouldn't know - I've never been.

I guess you don't need a large city for a thriving hospital or good medical school. Yale - New Haven has a great hospital/medical school and New Haven isn't exactly a huge city.

 

[awared2]

Is Trenton considered a large city? I wouldn't know - I've never been.

I guess you don't need a large city for a thriving hospital or good medical school. Yale - New Haven has a great hospital/medical school and New Haven isn't exactly a huge city.

Hartford has 125k people and has a pretty good hospital (associated with UCONN), Trenton has 85k people. Seems reasonable to me being in the middle of the state, if you're only looking at population

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

Is Trenton considered a large city? I wouldn't know - I've never been.

I guess you don't need a large city for a thriving hospital or good medical school. Yale - New Haven has a great hospital/medical school and New Haven isn't exactly a huge city.

Trenton is as suburbia as suburbia gets. There's nothing there except helicopter moms that want their children to go to Princeton.

Plus 40 minutes down the freeway you have Penn's hospital system in Philly.

 

[WinslowPringle]

They'd have to call themselves Princeton Medical School.

And who wants school apparel with PMS all over it?

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

Oh wait, Trenton also has good pretzels. There's a weekly Dutch Farmer's Market there. Highly recommend.

 

[Slack3r]

You are aware that hospitals don't have to exist in cities with millions of people, right? Geisinger Health system is located in the middle of PA nowhere near any city of any significant population, yet the system is massive with numerous residencies affiliated.

If there's one area of the country that DOESN'T need more hospitals/med schools, it's the Northeast corridor. In the 100 or so miles between Philly and NYC you have Penn, Drexel, Temple, Jefferson, PCOM, Cooper, Rutgers-RWJ, Rutgers-NJMS, Mt. Sinai, NYU, SUNY Downstate, Stony Brook, Hofstra, Cornell, Columbia, Albert Einstein, and NYMC. Not to mention the numerous other hospitals without university affiliations. No, I think the Tri-state area is all set with hospitals.

 

[Eokpar02]

I had a bunch of math in here, but what it comes down to is this: when you have an endowment, your ultimate goal is to never, ever touch the principle, because once you deplete any of it, you permanently lose some of the endowment principle that you are never allowed to touch. A financial crisis can cut your endowment in half, permanently netting you a loss. So in the good times, you build it up, so that when the bad times hit, the principle doesn't get smashed. There's also a lot of rules on how and on what you can spend endowment money on. So yeah, it looks like good policy for Princeton to do a lot of things, but ultimately, a lot of those things are likely against endowment rules.

Also, a large proportion of the endowment isn't money. Its land, art, etc..

 

[solitarius]

I agree. They should just buy Johns Hopkins' medical school.

I wonder how this plays out in Asian social circles?

1: My son got into Princeton.
2: Um, do they even have a medical school?
Silence, bowed heads & collective shame ensues.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I agree. They should just buy Johns Hopkins' medical school.

I wonder how this plays out in Asian social circles?

1: My son got into Princeton.
2: Um, do they even have a medical school?
Silence, bowed heads & collective shame ensues.

I think first dibs would go to Sidney Kimmel. He already has the cancer center. He could have his name on 2 separate medical schools on the East Coast.

As to the second bit, clearly it's over the top, but it made me laugh.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Moving to Pre-Allo.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Princeton should put their medical school in one of the WWAMI states that doesn't have one. Duke has an affiliated university in Singapore. Miami has an affiliated university in Ohio. Cornell has an affiliated university out in the sticks in Ithaca. Montana isn't much more of a stretch.

 

[3108]

Princeton should put their medical school in one of the WWAMI states that doesn't have one. Duke has an affiliated university in Singapore. Miami has an affiliated university in Ohio. Cornell has an affiliated university out in the sticks in Ithaca. Montana isn't much more of a stretch.

Are you referring to Miami University in Miami, OH, or a Miami, FL medical school based in Ohio? Big difference there...and I'm pretty sure the latter does not exist. Or are you referring the Miami Medical College that turned into Cincinnati College of Medicine over a century ago?

 

[mimelim]

I know that this may be hard for a lot of people, especially those considering a career in medicine to comprehend, but there is a world outside of medicine. Just because there is a pile of money sitting somewhere, doesn't mean that someone should simply 'open a medical school'. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other things to do with that money that will do just as much, if not more good for the school, society and the world.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I know that this may be hard for a lot of people, especially those considering a career in medicine to comprehend, but there is a world outside of medicine. Just because there is a pile of money sitting somewhere, doesn't mean that someone should simply 'open a medical school'. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other things to do with that money that will do just as much, if not more good for the school, society and the world.

Keep in mind that we have a $21 billion endowment but endowments cannot be spent, as this poster is alluding to. That is their function. The University invests it and uses a small part of the return to fund operating budget, etc.

However, the argument could go that from invention royalties (we still get millions each year from a particular drug invented decades ago), a medical school could be established (in fact, those millions must be completely spent each year or the University loses its non-profit designation, so we've been building new buildings all over). But this is against the fundamental mission of the University. Princeton wants an environment that is focused on undergraduates and accordingly, even its one graduate school is small compared to the undergraduate population. As a result, Princeton professors come to Princeton because they want to teach undergraduates (on top of being world-class academics). Establishing a medical school would be contrary to that mission.

 

[ridethecliche]

Trenton is as suburbia as suburbia gets. There's nothing there except helicopter moms that want their children to go to Princeton.

You've never been to Trenton, have you?

I know that this may be hard for a lot of people, especially those considering a career in medicine to comprehend, but there is a world outside of medicine. Just because there is a pile of money sitting somewhere, doesn't mean that someone should simply 'open a medical school'. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other things to do with that money that will do just as much, if not more good for the school, society and the world.

GTFO with your logic.

 

[superdoc2.0]

Keep in mind that we have a $21 billion endowment but endowments cannot be spent, as this poster is alluding to. That is their function. The University invests it and uses a small part of the return to fund operating budget, etc.

However, the argument could go that from invention royalties (we still get millions each year from a particular drug invented decades ago), a medical school could be established (in fact, those millions must be completely spent each year or the University loses its non-profit designation, so we've been building new buildings all over). But this is against the fundamental mission of the University. Princeton wants an environment that is focused on undergraduates and accordingly, even its one graduate school is small compared to the undergraduate population. As a result, Princeton professors come to Princeton because they want to teach undergraduates (on top of being world-class academics). Establishing a medical school would be contrary to that mission.

I wasn't saying they should spend their endowment to open a medical. Simply, that they are in a fantastic financial position.

The whole undergrad mission bit is bogus. They have 2600 grad students compared to 5300 undergraduates. That ratio (nearly 1:2) is not overly biased towards undergraduates by any stretch of the imagination. A 320 seat medical school class (for all four years) would barely change the ration and bring greater research possibilities and potentially even greater prestige.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Princeton is like my University's big brother - their focus is on undergraduate education. It is for this reason that their school and mine both don't have medical schools. It's strange, I know, but some schools have different missions than to be the typical graduate-level research powerhouse.

 

[justadream]

If Princeton is to open a professional school, medical school should not be high on the list of potential schools. Business/Law school seems like it would be easier to make profitable.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

You've never been to Trenton, have you?

Been there several times. Cousins live there. Bucks County represent. Much rather be in Philly and gorge on their cheesesteaks.

 

[ridethecliche]

Been there several times. Cousins live there. Bucks County represent. Much rather be in Philly and gorge on their cheesesteaks.

Lmfao.

I'm from bucks too.

 

[lifetothefullest]

The whole undergrad mission bit is bogus. They have 2600 grad students compared to 5300 undergraduates. That ratio (nearly 1:2) is not overly biased towards undergraduates by any stretch of the imagination. A 320 seat medical school class (for all four years) would barely change the ration and bring greater research possibilities and potentially even greater prestige.

I'm pretty sure "prestige" isn't a factor we're too worried about right now The grad student to undergrad ratio is not what makes it a great undergrad institution - you're missing the point. Not only do we get unparalleled access to professors and research opportunities (I'm on first name basis with several and they know quite a lot about me) but those opportunities are not being divided between business schools, law schools, med schools, etc. If you argue for a med school, there's no reason why we shouldn't have the other professional schools as well. Additionally, the funding at Princeton for undergrads is ridiculous. Not only do we get lucrative aid packages and state-of-the-art facilities, but there are numerous sources of funding for independent projects. I know quite a few people who have spent summers abroad, completely funded, to carry out their proposals. Now, other universities may have similar opportunities, but that is to overlook the fact that the opportunities available to us are easily accessible and there are far more of them because the University does not fund professional schools/programs. So no, the undergrad mission is not "bogus" but it's actually quite apparent once you get here.

In addition, I know several people at UPenn, Yale, and Harvard. Undergrads compete with med students for spots in labs there, for access to professors, etc. Professors just aren't as accessible at those peer institutions with professional programs. So the difference is definitely there. The only exception is Wharton, which is kind of special anyway so I won't compare the two.