private practice vs. ultrasound

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ateria radicularis magna

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Hello all,

Can any kind and patient soul explain in very basic terms what is and is not reimbursable using ultrasound? I find this very confusing. In training I used it a ton, but I have found some in private practice who completely avoid it not because they don't know how to use it, but because they have found that its use would lead to significantly less reimbursement.

I would also like to open up this topic to any random opinions on ultrasound use in private practice, or predictions about the future of fluoro vs. ultrasound!

Thanks in advance.

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Good practice to use US in theory. Not accessible to pp and patients in real life. Payments too low to justify 20-30k device. Some studies support efficacy but not convincing enough to implement. Use flouro, cheaper and paid for... Don't fall for the random ilioonguinal and pudendal nerve examples, these are zebra...
 
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Here is an overview of ultrasound in practice, although it is more relevant to PM&R guys who do lots of MSK ultrasound. My understanding is that ultrasound guidance has mostly gotten bundled into injections, so it's not very rewarding any more. And there is an opportunity cost with investing in the machine and the additional time required to perform ultrasound exams.
https://www.amssm.org/Content/pdf files/US_Business_Plan.pdf
 
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It really isn't bundled. It has its own code which pays more than a standard joint injection. You get $30 for using it on nerves, trigger points, tendons, etc.

If you are sure you are going to use it 15x a week it might payoff someday.
 
I wouldn't say that nerve blocks reimburse well. US guidance payment for nerve blocks is about a fourth of what it was 5-7 years ago.

At least there is some payment, i think medicare is about $60 for US guidance + the nerve code
payment.

Also get paid for doing tendon and ligament injections under US, but you don't really get paid extra for doing joints with ultrasound and ultrasound takes longer than fluoro for joint injections.

To the OP--- In most private practices, you do mainly spine procedures, which are done much quicker and more accurately with flouro. In most PP, 95% of your non-neuro axial injections, will be knee, shoulder, hip injections, TPI, troch bursa. You don't require guidance for any of those except the hip, which is faster, and pays more with fluoro. If you want to do other joint injections with guidance in private practice, most docs would use flouro because the injection is quicker and you still get paid for fluoro guidance for joint injections.

Unless you or your practice already owns an US machine, its not worth it to buy an US machine, unless your specific practice will involve a ton of peripheral nerve blocks and/or tendon/ligament injections. This is an infrequent need for most pain practices, unless your practice specializes or is known for uncommon pain diagnoses like Ligament or will have a very strong sports medicine population in your practice.

That said, I think its very handy to have ultrasound around for those cases, but they are rare for most PP docs.
 
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I wouldn't say that nerve blocks reimburse well. US guidance payment for nerve blocks is about a fourth of what it was 5-7 years ago.

At least there is some payment, i think medicare is about $50 for US guidance + the nerve code
payment.

Also get paid for doing tendon and ligament injections under US, but you don't really get paid extra for doing joints with ultrasound and ultrasound takes longer than fluoro for joint injections.

To the OP--- In most private practices, you do mainly spine procedures, which are done much quicker and more accurately with flouro. In most PP, 95% of your non-neuro axial injections, will be knee, shoulder, hip injections, TPI, troch bursa. You don't require guidance for any of those except the hip, which is faster, and pays more with fluoro. If you want to do other joint injections with guidance in private practice, most docs would use flouro because the injection is quicker and you still get paid for fluoro guidance for joint injections.

Unless you or your practice already owns an US machine, its not worth it to buy an US machine, unless your specific practice will involve a ton of peripheral nerve blocks and/or tendon/ligament injections. This is an infrequent need for most pain practices, unless your practice specializes or is known for uncommon pain diagnoses like ligament or will have a very strong sports medicine population in your practice.

That said, I think its very handy to have ultrasound around for those cases, but they are rare for most PP docs.

Aren't u worried about degrading the structure of an already beat up tendon or ligament putting steroid there? Or r u talking prp? Have heard orthos use this rationale...predisposes to rupture etc...

What ligaments or tendons are you injecting most commonly?

Thanks in advance.
 
It should take about 5 minutes of doctor time for most U/s guided procedures, so if you are fast I think still not a money looser.
 
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We do a ton of US in our practice. Lots of caudals, tendons, bursae, and nerve blocks. We do stellate blocks this way too, but they're not very frequent.

If the patient can point to a spot and palpation provokes pain, we can usually find a tendon or nerve to inject there. And these injections usually work.
 
We do a ton of US in our practice. Lots of caudals, tendons, bursae, and nerve blocks. We do stellate blocks this way too, but they're not very frequent.

If the patient can point to a spot and palpation provokes pain, we can usually find a tendon or nerve to inject there. And these injections usually work.

Define work.

Get paid for, or
Reduce meds, or
Return to play, or
Report less pain?
 
We do a ton of US in our practice. Lots of caudals, tendons, bursae, and nerve blocks. We do stellate blocks this way too, but they're not very frequent.

If the patient can point to a spot and palpation provokes pain, we can usually find a tendon or nerve to inject there. And these injections usually work.
And work for how long?
 
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US for tendons or nerves or for a joint if I don't feel like getting extra rads that day. The time difference is negligible. Its definitely nice to have both options, just glad mine was paid off before the bundling.
 
cpt code 76942. ASIPP says ~$60 for medicare
 
Aren't u worried about degrading the structure of an already beat up tendon or ligament putting steroid there? Or r u talking prp? Have heard orthos use this rationale...predisposes to rupture etc...

What ligaments or tendons are you injecting most commonly?

Thanks in advance.

I'm mainly referring to PRP. Steroid every so often, but mainly PRP. Lots of tendon/ligament targets in sports med population. lateral/medial epicondyle, supraspinatus, biceps, MCL/LCL, hamstrings, etc.
 
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I still perform at least one us injection a day. Before the reimbursement was killed probably closer to 5. If it is something you are trained to do and enjoy then buy a 10k used machine and will be paid off in a few months. It is now in the same category as emg for me.
 
I use it on 5-10 patients a day...half diagnostic msk, 10% vascular, 40% joint and nerves and bursa. Reimbursement is poor but the utility is that it provides another tool and includes dynamic evaluations (trigger fingers, slap hip) and gives the patient a visual image of the pathology. I use longer office visits billing level 4 or 5 by time for the diagnostics
 
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So for you guys not using U/s, are you doing any nerve blocks, tendon injections? Are you primarily doing fluoro guided spine and joint injections now?
 
But we do not know if this is any better than a blind injection.

I don't need a study to tell me I can hit a tendon sheath more reliably if I can see it than if I blindly stab away and hope for the best.

I don't need a study to tell me that injecting a carpal tunnel is safer when I can identify the neurovascular structures.

Something on your mind, Steve?
 
I don't need a study to tell me I can hit a tendon sheath more reliably if I can see it than if I blindly stab away and hope for the best.

I don't need a study to tell me that injecting a carpal tunnel is safer when I can identify the neurovascular structures.

Something on your mind, Steve?

Increased cost without increased benefit vs blind or fluoro (joints)
 
U/S guided carpal tunnel injections are most effective things I do. I like it for sub-acromial injection, and for draining every last drop of a knee. I don't routinely do knees with it, prefer fluoro, but if it's a huge effusion, nothing beats ultrasound.


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U/S guided carpal tunnel injections are most effective things I do. I like it for sub-acromial injection, and for draining every last drop of a knee. I don't routinely do knees with it, prefer fluoro, but if it's a huge effusion, nothing beats ultrasound.


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if its a huge effusion, you can do it blind. literally blind. like with a blindfold. its like popping a balloon.
 
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Is it clinically meaningful or just a profit center with a whole industry geared to teaching the procedures, selling equipment?

I'll defer to Oreo on the studies, but we treat thousands of patients using US techniques that are only possible with direct visualization of the target structures of interest.

When I do a LFCN block, I can actually see the nerve I'm trying to release. I can watch the needle tip while directing injectate adjacent to the nerve, and then over the sartorious muscle traveling proximally. under the inguinal ligament. I don't have a double blind RCT demonstrating that this procedure is worth $30 more, but it sure looks more accurate than a blind fascia iliaca block would be. More to the point, I hardly ever have to repeat that block in anyone, unless it's months or years later. Occipitals are similar. For median nerve injections I can follow the contour of the nerve to make sure we get a perfect donut sign. Without active direction of the needle it's surprising how often after a few mL of injectate the needle slips out of the tunnel. How about the patient who was suffering from entrapment of the tibial artery under the ankle retinaculum? The guy had excruciating ischemic pain with any exercise, or even going for a hike. He saw doctors for 6 years with no solutions. Vascular wouldn't touch it and sent the guy to me for possible CRPS. I did 3 separate injections under the retinaculum, directly adjacent to the artery with incremental progress after each injection. Now he's symptom free, and I hear from other patients who know him "that guy still talks about you". Was that worth $30? You tell me. If he had known going in that this was going to work, what would he have paid out of pocket to get rid of this problem? My guess is it was worth thousands to him.

You are right to be skeptical, but don't be a contrarian just for it's own sake. There's real value here, and if you started using US I think you'd be a convert.
 
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I'll defer to Oreo on the studies, but we treat thousands of patients using US techniques that are only possible with direct visualization of the target structures of interest.

When I do a LFCN block, I can actually see the nerve I'm trying to release. I can watch the needle tip while directing injectate adjacent to the nerve, and then over the sartorious muscle traveling proximally. under the inguinal ligament. I don't have a double blind RCT demonstrating that this procedure is worth $30 more, but it sure looks more accurate than a blind fascia iliaca block would be. More to the point, I hardly ever have to repeat that block in anyone, unless it's months or years later. Occipitals are similar. For median nerve injections I can follow the contour of the nerve to make sure we get a perfect donut sign. Without active direction of the needle it's surprising how often after a few mL of injectate the needle slips out of the tunnel. How about the patient who was suffering from entrapment of the tibial artery under the ankle retinaculum? The guy had excruciating ischemic pain with any exercise, or even going for a hike. He saw doctors for 6 years with no solutions. Vascular wouldn't touch it and sent the guy to me for possible CRPS. I did 3 separate injections under the retinaculum, directly adjacent to the artery with incremental progress after each injection. Now he's symptom free, and I hear from other patients who know him "that guy still talks about you". Was that worth $30? You tell me. If he had known going in that this was going to work, what would he have paid out of pocket to get rid of this problem? My guess is it was worth thousands to him.

You are right to be skeptical, but don't be a contrarian just for it's own sake. There's real value here, and if you started using US I think you'd be a convert.


You're talking about rare case reports and conjecture. I would love to see you study with a hundred doctors identifying a lateral femoral cutaneous nerve under ultrasound. I'd like to know how many can find it and then to find that it actually is that nerve. I'd also like to see the study of blind versus ultrasound-guided to show a clinically significant meaning for patient Global impact on change or some type of validated outcome measure.

Just because we have cool new toys doesn't mean they add anything to outcomes for patient care. When we start injecting cost into our practices and into the Healthcare System we should have some meaningful utility to these costs.
 
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if its a huge effusion, you can do it blind. literally blind. like with a blindfold. its like popping a balloon.

Agreed if it's a huge effusion you could do a blind but you can't get all of it, which is why ultrasound is nice. Often there are pockets of fluid that you will not drain from one insertion of the needle. Whether this has a significant clinical outcome, I don't know, but it seems to me if their knees irritated and inflamed with inflammatory fluid, getting all of the inflammatory fluid out is better.


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It is an invaluable tool for finding fish. I also use it to find the bottom of the ocean up to 300 ft.
 
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Current Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Reports

June 2013, Volume 1, Issue 2, pp 104–113


Ultrasound Guided Spine Injections: Advancement Over Fluoroscopic Guidance?

Disadvantages of Ultrasound-Guided Spine Injections


The main disadvantage of US-guided spinal injections is operator experience and the required long learning curve that is required for the physician to be well acquainted with the simultaneous manipulation of an US transducer, placement of needles, and the correct interpretation of musculoskeletal sonographic images [44]. The reproducibility among doctors is low [14••]. US offers only a narrow imaging window, which is extremely sensitive to the probe’s position and direction potentially leading to misinterpretation of imagery due to anisotropy. Tissue interpretation errors can lead in inaccurate injections with possible short-term or permanent neurological deficits. Therefore, in-depth knowledge of applied anatomy and specific training are required to master these techniques. The acoustic impedance of bone is high, and thus it has significant limitations for imaging spinal structures when the target is obscured by bone tissue. This gives rise to increased risk for accidental dural punctures due to decreased visibility [39]. Given that a higher US image resolution allows for decreased tissue penetration, it will be more difficult to identify neurovascular structures in patients who are more obese. The quality of US imaging also varies from each machine and the diagnostic capabilities of portable machines that are more affordable may offer less resolution than higher cost stationary machines possibly increasing the difficulty level of image interpretation for the sonographer.

Conclusions
The use of US guidance for spinal injections has been increasing as US technology has continued to improve and become more accessible to practitioners. The advantages to utilizing US are many and revolve around its convenience, lack of radiation, and visibility of vital neurovascular structures. The disadvantages include its inability to penetrate osseous structures limiting the view of internal spinal structures, reliance on user experience for identification of structures, and resolution deficits with deeper structures. A review of the literature has demonstrated that US can be reliable and safe with certain injections.

The literature on US-guided injections has greatly expanded in recent years but most studies have been small feasibility studies that have focused primarily on the description of the techniques. As feasibility does not necessarily encompass meaningful use in clinical practice, there is a great need for validating US-guided injections with more clinical research. Of the interventional spine procedures reviewed for this article, US guidance offers more compelling evidence to support its use with SI joint injections, caudal epidural injections, and facet joint injections and medial branch nerve blocks. US guided cervical and lumbar transforaminal injections still remain controversial among interventional pain physicians with the belief that US may not guarantee needle placement, accurate spread of the injectate, and prevention of intravascular injection. Concomitant use of US with other standard imaging modalities, such as fluoroscopy, may provide additional usefulness especially in areas where a greater risk of intravascular injection is present. Until there is more quality data to provide an evidence-based background for the efficacy and safety of US-guided interventional spine procedures, fluoroscopic guidance will remain the standard of care.
 
Agree...for most patients fluoro is rad. But if you have a US machine and use no expensive disposables (US lucent needles, sterile probe covers, needle angle template devices, etc) and really want to know your anatomy instead of imagining where tendons insert or muscles cross or bursas or small joint surfaces are, then US is an excellent tool. Mine is kept on a rolling cart with all the supplies needed to do a nerve, bursa, joint, tendon, or ligament block. By using the dual display one can directly compare one side ve the other. Patients DO appreciate being shown exactly what is wrong on US (excluding most spinal pathology). Would i personally buy a $40k machine? Not a chance. Not enough income to ever justify it.
 
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I am neither old enough, nor an anesthesiologist

but, I have heard that when fluoroscopy was first coming onto the pain scene, the older anesthesiologists criticized the younger ones that wanted to use XR to perform pain procedures. they said, "what, you can't feel it? didn't we train you to use your hands? this is the ART of medicine" yada yada yada

then real studies were performed and we found that the "blind" injections were in the wrong place up to 40% of the time.

Any imaging modality is more accurate than palpation approach. this has been demonstrated dozens of times. US > palpation. fluoro > palpation. US = fluoro for joints. US infinitely better than fluoroscopy and palpation for soft tissue injections when your target is nerve, a tendon sheath, etc and avoiding structures you don't want to hit - viscous, lung, etc. When nerve stimulators were first used to perform peripheral nerve blocks, and injectate volumes dropped from 10-20 ml to 5-10 ml to perform the same block, I would argue that using US provides ability to perform these procedures in much safer ways.

As good as we all want to believe we are, and as good we all think we are in being 99.999% accurate, the studies show a much different reality. global satisfaction, VAS do not pan out 1:1 with accuracy in many studies as Steve is alluding to, but to not strive for the highest accuracy with our injections goes against one of the basic principles of our profession.

As physicians I am sure we all take pride in Accuracy and Precision. This is also why we do specific nerve root lesion injections vs caudal esi or oral steroids. and I would remind you, this is the basic tenet many of you ascribe to, to isolate the painful lesion down to the single medial branch...

Ultrasound does not pay very much. and if you spent the time to learn how to use it, you will find that it is an INCREDIBLY USEFUL tool. it is not only used for guidance for injections. as a brief example, I was teaching a course 2 weekends ago to a group of 3 anesthesiologists, ACGME trained pain physicians with over 60 years of combined experience. one of them brought in his family member with posterior knee pain. This person had already been evaluated by multiple specialists, MRI x2, was then seen at the big state university where orthopedics did not find anything wrong with his knee. People always bring these folks to me and ask me to, "just take a look and tell us what you see" it is not easy, nor do I welcome it. I am not trained as a radiologist, and if these specialists could not find the root of the problem with MRI, i doubt I can either.

one beauty about US is something people call, "soon-auscultation." meaning, you put the probe directly over where it hurts. this is a HUGE advantage over MRI. you can also move the painful part of the body around in real-time, vs static imaging.

i placed the probe over where it hurt, and after a brief survey of the area was able to find a hypo echoic area within a tendon. i traced this tendon caudally until it turned into a muscle: his medial gastrocnemius. i saved some nice images, and made sure that I could easily reproduce that hypo echoic area in the tendon so that I was not fooling myself. then i looked at the same area on his contralateral and unaffected limb. i found the same area of the leg. the insertion of the medial gastroc tendon on the distal posterior femur. it looked beautifully normal. (see attached image)

Again, you can do a lot of things with ultrasound. the economics of it are negligible. $30 for the code is actually a waste of my time and a drop in the bucket compared to the $12 tylenol in the hospital. I don't expect everyone who uses US to want to learn how to use it to it's full potential. nor do I expect everyone to do cervical/lumbar RF with the parallel approach even if I think it's the best way to do it.

in that same group of 3 physicians i taught recently, i was able to demonstrate to them how within their small sample size of 3 how you have completely variable anatomy. one person had a bifid median nerve, one had a median nerve much more ulnar than typical. when evaluating their necks, one had dozens of thyroid nodules that were identified which needed to be further evaluated, another had esophagus on the left, while the others had them on the right, etc

to go back to my argument on the superiority of US over fluoroscopy for soft tissue injections, i will mention a example of a procedure commonly performed with both US and fluoroscopy. for stellate ganglion block, i teach 3 approaches depending on the anatomy that is found. Trans-thyroidal, trans-jugular, and an in-plane lateral to medial approach. for most practitioners, they have 1 approach to this injection with fluoroscopy. there is no way to evaluate the anatomy for inferior-thyroidal arteries, ascending cervical arteries, visualization of the cervcal nerve roots, esophagus, etc. these are some of the structures that have been violated and published as complications in performing stellate ganglion blocks (retropharyngeal hematoma compromising airway, abscess from esophagus etc). Mind you, I am ACGME Pain trained and can do these with fluoroscopy as well but choose not to as I find US to be a much safer approach. and Yes, I can do them with both modalities to evaluate for contrast flow.

If you take the time to want to develop US as a skill, it is a fantastic tool.
 

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Thanks for taking the time to write this. I call it sono-palpation.


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Agree that ultrasound can be very useful in well-trained hands. No is raping the system getting a $60 guidance payment. I used ultrasound in my previous practices, but I'm not at an expert level like Oreos, DrJay, and powermd.
Getting back to the OPs question, it's matter of financial viability with current US reimbursement. If I could find a machine for a couple thousand I'd get one for my new practice as well. Unfortunately, with all my other new practice expenses, I can't justify $30-40,000 for an ultrasound machine, on which I'll never make back my money.
 

Current Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Reports

June 2013, Volume 1, Issue 2, pp 104–113


Ultrasound Guided Spine Injections: Advancement Over Fluoroscopic Guidance?


Disadvantages of Ultrasound-Guided Spine Injections


The main disadvantage of US-guided spinal injections is operator experience and the required long learning curve that is required for the physician to be well acquainted with the simultaneous manipulation of an US transducer, placement of needles, and the correct interpretation of musculoskeletal sonographic images [44]. The reproducibility among doctors is low [14••]. US offers only a narrow imaging window, which is extremely sensitive to the probe’s position and direction potentially leading to misinterpretation of imagery due to anisotropy. Tissue interpretation errors can lead in inaccurate injections with possible short-term or permanent neurological deficits. Therefore, in-depth knowledge of applied anatomy and specific training are required to master these techniques. The acoustic impedance of bone is high, and thus it has significant limitations for imaging spinal structures when the target is obscured by bone tissue. This gives rise to increased risk for accidental dural punctures due to decreased visibility [39]. Given that a higher US image resolution allows for decreased tissue penetration, it will be more difficult to identify neurovascular structures in patients who are more obese. The quality of US imaging also varies from each machine and the diagnostic capabilities of portable machines that are more affordable may offer less resolution than higher cost stationary machines possibly increasing the difficulty level of image interpretation for the sonographer.

Conclusions
The use of US guidance for spinal injections has been increasing as US technology has continued to improve and become more accessible to practitioners. The advantages to utilizing US are many and revolve around its convenience, lack of radiation, and visibility of vital neurovascular structures. The disadvantages include its inability to penetrate osseous structures limiting the view of internal spinal structures, reliance on user experience for identification of structures, and resolution deficits with deeper structures. A review of the literature has demonstrated that US can be reliable and safe with certain injections.

The literature on US-guided injections has greatly expanded in recent years but most studies have been small feasibility studies that have focused primarily on the description of the techniques. As feasibility does not necessarily encompass meaningful use in clinical practice, there is a great need for validating US-guided injections with more clinical research. Of the interventional spine procedures reviewed for this article, US guidance offers more compelling evidence to support its use with SI joint injections, caudal epidural injections, and facet joint injections and medial branch nerve blocks. US guided cervical and lumbar transforaminal injections still remain controversial among interventional pain physicians with the belief that US may not guarantee needle placement, accurate spread of the injectate, and prevention of intravascular injection. Concomitant use of US with other standard imaging modalities, such as fluoroscopy, may provide additional usefulness especially in areas where a greater risk of intravascular injection is present. Until there is more quality data to provide an evidence-based background for the efficacy and safety of US-guided interventional spine procedures, fluoroscopic guidance will remain the standard of care.

Steve, I don't think many people on here are advocating for U/s guided spine injections any longer (well Oreo is for stellates combined with fluoro for vascular uptake), especially if flouro is available. That was a hot topic a few years ago. Tendons, peripheral nerves, muscles...its a phenomenal tool.
 
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I am neither old enough, nor an anesthesiologist

but, I have heard that when fluoroscopy was first coming onto the pain scene, the older anesthesiologists criticized the younger ones that wanted to use XR to perform pain procedures. they said, "what, you can't feel it? didn't we train you to use your hands? this is the ART of medicine" yada yada yada

then real studies were performed and we found that the "blind" injections were in the wrong place up to 40% of the time.

Any imaging modality is more accurate than palpation approach. this has been demonstrated dozens of times. US > palpation. fluoro > palpation. US = fluoro for joints. US infinitely better than fluoroscopy and palpation for soft tissue injections when your target is nerve, a tendon sheath, etc and avoiding structures you don't want to hit - viscous, lung, etc. When nerve stimulators were first used to perform peripheral nerve blocks, and injectate volumes dropped from 10-20 ml to 5-10 ml to perform the same block, I would argue that using US provides ability to perform these procedures in much safer ways.

As good as we all want to believe we are, and as good we all think we are in being 99.999% accurate, the studies show a much different reality. global satisfaction, VAS do not pan out 1:1 with accuracy in many studies as Steve is alluding to, but to not strive for the highest accuracy with our injections goes against one of the basic principles of our profession.

As physicians I am sure we all take pride in Accuracy and Precision. This is also why we do specific nerve root lesion injections vs caudal esi or oral steroids. and I would remind you, this is the basic tenet many of you ascribe to, to isolate the painful lesion down to the single medial branch...

Ultrasound does not pay very much. and if you spent the time to learn how to use it, you will find that it is an INCREDIBLY USEFUL tool. it is not only used for guidance for injections. as a brief example, I was teaching a course 2 weekends ago to a group of 3 anesthesiologists, ACGME trained pain physicians with over 60 years of combined experience. one of them brought in his family member with posterior knee pain. This person had already been evaluated by multiple specialists, MRI x2, was then seen at the big state university where orthopedics did not find anything wrong with his knee. People always bring these folks to me and ask me to, "just take a look and tell us what you see" it is not easy, nor do I welcome it. I am not trained as a radiologist, and if these specialists could not find the root of the problem with MRI, i doubt I can either.

one beauty about US is something people call, "soon-auscultation." meaning, you put the probe directly over where it hurts. this is a HUGE advantage over MRI. you can also move the painful part of the body around in real-time, vs static imaging.

i placed the probe over where it hurt, and after a brief survey of the area was able to find a hypo echoic area within a tendon. i traced this tendon caudally until it turned into a muscle: his medial gastrocnemius. i saved some nice images, and made sure that I could easily reproduce that hypo echoic area in the tendon so that I was not fooling myself. then i looked at the same area on his contralateral and unaffected limb. i found the same area of the leg. the insertion of the medial gastroc tendon on the distal posterior femur. it looked beautifully normal. (see attached image)

Again, you can do a lot of things with ultrasound. the economics of it are negligible. $30 for the code is actually a waste of my time and a drop in the bucket compared to the $12 tylenol in the hospital. I don't expect everyone who uses US to want to learn how to use it to it's full potential. nor do I expect everyone to do cervical/lumbar RF with the parallel approach even if I think it's the best way to do it.

in that same group of 3 physicians i taught recently, i was able to demonstrate to them how within their small sample size of 3 how you have completely variable anatomy. one person had a bifid median nerve, one had a median nerve much more ulnar than typical. when evaluating their necks, one had dozens of thyroid nodules that were identified which needed to be further evaluated, another had esophagus on the left, while the others had them on the right, etc

to go back to my argument on the superiority of US over fluoroscopy for soft tissue injections, i will mention a example of a procedure commonly performed with both US and fluoroscopy. for stellate ganglion block, i teach 3 approaches depending on the anatomy that is found. Trans-thyroidal, trans-jugular, and an in-plane lateral to medial approach. for most practitioners, they have 1 approach to this injection with fluoroscopy. there is no way to evaluate the anatomy for inferior-thyroidal arteries, ascending cervical arteries, visualization of the cervcal nerve roots, esophagus, etc. these are some of the structures that have been violated and published as complications in performing stellate ganglion blocks (retropharyngeal hematoma compromising airway, abscess from esophagus etc). Mind you, I am ACGME Pain trained and can do these with fluoroscopy as well but choose not to as I find US to be a much safer approach. and Yes, I can do them with both modalities to evaluate for contrast flow.

If you take the time to want to develop US as a skill, it is a fantastic tool.

Wow. Maybe I will take a little more time to education myself further with ultrasound.
 
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I don't perform spine injections under US, but do see the utility for it in certain circumstances.

A few interesting examples.

You should see what cervical medial branches actually look like under a good US machine. It is fascinating.

I have never performed a cervical tfesi as I was not trained to do them. But, I see the anterior and posterior tubercle and nerve root all the time when scanning the neck. A snrb would be easy to do under US. If using local only, I would expect a very low complication rate.

Caudal and SIJ in pregnancy (injections that otherwise can be attempted by palpitation alone)

to identify s1, s2 foramen so as not to be confused with bowel gas. Injection under xr. It takes 10 sec to correctly identify s1, s2.
 
The dark side of US around the spine: it is not possible to reliably detect any radiculomedullary artery injection or intracanal patterns that sometimes spell disaster. I was involved in a case in which a doctor did all his interlaminar CESIs under ultrasound. Got a cord injection- patient died in the office. If you need to detect arterial uptake in the canal or care whether you are intrathecal vs subdural supra-arachnoid vs epidural, then US is not for you.
 
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Another block to add to the fire--intercostals. To those who have been using both U/S and fluoro for this block, which do you prefer, and why?
 
Absolutely prefer ultrasound for intercostals. Why, Cause I can see the pleura and lung moving deep to the rib. Can also see the vessels and nerve. Feel much safer with this approach.


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The dark side of US around the spine: it is not possible to reliably detect any radiculomedullary artery injection or intracanal patterns that sometimes spell disaster. I was involved in a case in which a doctor did all his interlaminar CESIs under ultrasound. Got a cord injection- patient died in the office. If you need to detect arterial uptake in the canal or care whether you are intrathecal vs subdural supra-arachnoid vs epidural, then US is not for you.

Agree with fluoro use. Was sedation used in this case?
 
Absolutely prefer ultrasound for intercostals. Why, Cause I can see the pleura and lung moving deep to the rib. Can also see the vessels and nerve. Feel much safer with this approach.


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I prefer Fluoro. I like to see bones, walk off of it, aspirate and put contrast and see a great contrast spread 1mm past the rib with a 27 gauge needle. I don't think it can be safer than that in my hands. While I appreciate being able to see lungs, it's pretty hard to see a 27 gauge needle on ultrasound

If I was better at US maybe I would think it was better, but I have both and have used both, and prefer fluoro

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I prefer Fluoro. I like to see bones, walk off of it, aspirate and put contrast and see a great contrast spread 1mm past the rib with a 27 gauge needle. I don't think it can be safer than that in my hands. While I appreciate being able to see lungs, it's pretty hard to see a 27 gauge needle on ultrasound

If I was better at US maybe I would think it was better, but I have both and have used both, and prefer fluoro

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Cool. How long is the 27 g? I have only ever used a 1.5 in 27 g.
 
No sedation. Patient coded 5 min after administration. No ACLS...no resuscitation equipment....CPR only.
 
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